412: I believe this is me right #1 here, that C-C # Interviewer: #2 C-C right # 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 That stands for Lee County? # 412: Yeah Interviewer: And uh, there's a 412: {NW} Interviewer: It's not, uh, is that basically the way Lee county looks? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Okay so there it is by counties And uh then they have, uh back here you have oh here's Lee then they have it numbered, too so That's how, if you're, you know 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 In case she's interested # 412: #1 Yeah, yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 {X} work we call those grids # uh Okay where'd we leave off oh okay 412: #1 Let me, let me mention # Interviewer: #2 Uh # 412: one other thing to you one of the pronunciations that always irritates me and uh strikes me very quickly whenever I hear it so many so-called educated people use it, and I'm sure I have some pronunciation that, uh strike other educated people irritably but people who say "think" Interviewer: Think or thank? 412: No, neither one "thank" and they're trying to say "think" Interviewer: Oh 412: The president of our company, a well-educated man and our friend all our lifetime, we traveled together worked together forty years he never did break himself of saying "thank" T-H-I-N-K Interviewer: Thank 412: Think That's the way they pronounce it but if you're gonna pronounce it correctly it'd be "think" Interviewer: Yes Think... yeah I can see your point 412: Another thing that uh Doesn't bother me, uh, it used to bother me, a little, think it's a matter of pride or something People dropping their G's Well that no longer bothers me at all but what does bother me is running your words together Whyncha {C: why don't you} Interviewer: whyncha 412: "Why don't you" Yeah that's, well, that's again that you meant the other day and I was here I mentioned I picked up a few bad habits up North and that's speaking a little bit faster that's #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 One of 'em # And I have a tendency to run words myself 412: Mm-hmm Interviewer: Uh 412: Doncha Interviewer: Doncha 412: Yeah Interviewer: Doncha... I think I say that a lot 412: {NW} Interviewer: I know I say 412: {NW} {NW} Interviewer: Okay How about a piece of furniture in a bedroom that has drawers in it and a place where you might put your clothes, what, what would you call that? 412: Uh, I think we'd call that anything from a dresser to chifforobe to a... Aux: chested drawer 412: chested drawers Well, and I believe No, it wouldn't either, chested drawers would be and sometimes uh a {D: chessay} it been on {X} chest like that long one I showed you down at the museum Interviewer: Yes 412: It was grandma Nun's uh Interviewer: And that's what she called it, just a chest? 412: Yeah, chested drawers, uh just a chest If it was made out of cedar you'd usually say, "cedar chest" Interviewer: Nice Now if, if it 412: A clothes chest #1 A quilt chest # Aux: #2 an old crest # 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 # 412: #1 # Aux: #2 We used to call 'em a {X} # 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Aux: #2 long time ago # 412: #1 # Aux: #2 # Interviewer: Now, is, is that the type where where, they they have a place, sometimes they have a place for shoes we put in the bottom, or uh 412: #1 Uh # Interviewer: #2 Were they just like a, a war- # 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 # 412: #1 Yeah I think that's right, Sally, I don't # Aux: #2 We have, we got two of those # 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 down there too # 412: #1 # Aux: #2 # 412: I don't believe I've ever seen a chest where they put shoes in it, Sally Not built that way Interviewer: What about one where, you know Where you might have drawers on this side and you have a um, a You know like a closet space on this side 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 Maybe a mirror with it too # 412: Well we got one got several in the house, yeah #1 I usually just call that a chifforobe # Interviewer: #2 Yeah do you # chifforobe? okay Um 412: What would, what would you call it? Aux: That's right... well now, you see those down at that museum and that one in that front {X} {X} {X} it has shelves on one side and it has 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Aux: #2 Hanging space on the other side # And the big one in the back The Joe, came from Joe's it has a hanging space and it has 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Aux: #2 Shelves, too # 412: #1 {NW} # Aux: #2 And in the bottom it probably # put shoes if you wanted and then, they didn't have closet space in the house 412: yeah #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 Like they do now, so they use these # 412: Come in! {NS} Did it run? Aux2: It, uh, don't {X} {X} Got along{X} {X} {X} 412: Yeah, yeah Aux2: It's just a little tight {X} 412: Uh-huh Aux2: {X} 412: Okey doke, well I sure do thank y'all Interviewer: okay What do you, what do you call uh uh those things that you pull down to keep the light from coming in your window? 412: You mean the shades? Interviewer: Yeah, you have any special names for those? 412: No I don't know of Interviewer: Okay uh 412: Now, you have draw curtains, and that sort of thing Interviewer: Yeah, but these are Aux: #1 He's talking about Venetian blinds, or, or shades # Interviewer: #2 that might be # Or maybe that might've been an older term word for a Aux: Shutters would be the only thing 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 they use to, uh # keep the light out 412: And that would be a usually a wooden door and affect a wooden window that you in the early days they didn't have even a uh door like that they they had no window and maybe no door they just closed it up Aux: No I'll be a {X} okay 412: {NW} Interviewer: Okay what would you call a little room off the kitchen where you might store your uh canned goods, or china, or something like is it just a little room that you walk into off the kitchen? 412: Well, goodness, I've heard a number of terms for that uh You might call it the storage room or you we used to speak of one room in houses back room Interviewer: Back room? 412: Mm Mama, this is where my brother and I slept when we were growing up but she would store fruit and a lot of other things in there it was a big room, really Now what else might we use Interviewer: Usually had a lot of, I guess, shelves and 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 cabinets and stuff in it # 412: Usually be shelves in it, yeah Man, I don't think of Interviewer: You ever heard of, um, maybe called a, a safe? 412: No no, that's an entirely different matter Interviewer: What would be a safe in your, uh 412: Well in, in the old days and this is when I was a boy {NW} You don't have safes anymore much Except {NS} #1 tax sheet money or your documents or something # Interviewer: #2 Yeah, right # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: The old safe, really, was a a wooden structure usually with um, a front tin perforated door Interviewer: Yes 412: Now they are a high price, now, if you can find 'em We haven't yet gotten a good one for The museum Interviewer: Now, one's that I've seen like that is when you put the bakery goods so they cool off, is that the same type of thing? 412: Mm No, this kind of safes that we had in this area were for putting all of your vegetables that you could Well you just didn't have any ice to keep 'em way back then you ate, either ate them up or you didn't keep 'em course there were certain things you could keep, sweet potatoes, let's say baked potatoes, or meats, or some kinds and condiments, or pickles, you could keep all those but you, you just didn't keep at the things it wouldn't take care of themselves, is is Sally may carry it over a weekend Interviewer: Yes 412: Well we ate it that day or we'd we didn't eat it at all if it had any danger botulism or to kill you siren Interviewer: Uh, what would you call a a lot of old worthless things that you that you were about to throw away that you just collecting together and you're gonna throw it all away at one time? 412: Well you might call it junk, you might call it trash {NW} that mess Interviewer: Yeah, you ever heard it called "plunder?" 412: Yeah yeah Interviewer: or uh, or uh, "clutch?" 412: #1 No, uh, no # Interviewer: #2 You ever heard that? Okay # How about, what would you call a room that you use to store, just store odds and ends now it doesn't have any specific use, just 412: Well now that might be the plunder room Interviewer: okay okay How about uh, uh uh, uh What do you use to sweep with to a floor way What do you call that? 412: Well We use various things you know I guess you're talking about a broom Interviewer: okay... Did uh, when you were uh young did you, uh uh, have brooms? 412: #1 Oh yeah, we # Interviewer: #2 Did you, did you make 'em or # 412: Some of 'em did Interviewer: How, how did you make 'em? 412: Brush brooms Interviewer: How were they made? 412: Well you'd usually get all alders down on a branch and uh You tie them together with a cord or some kind of a wire Interviewer: Now what you get, you get what What kind, what do you get on the branch? 412: Alders. A-L-D-E-R-S Interviewer: Alders? 412: This would be to sweep the backyard Interviewer: yes Aux: Now, you made the broom that you swept the house to the {X} {X} 412: Yeah when I was going to, you talking about the broom sedge Yeah I'm gonna come to that Aux: Did you show in one of those down at the museum? 412: No, I didn't Aux: That one of mine is down there 412: Well, uh Have you ever heard of broom sedge #1 Y'all tune in Florida # Interviewer: #2 Yeah, well yes sir I have # Mister Ward told me about it I just wanna see if you uh 412: Well goodness, everybody had Aux: Well I used to have one 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 {X} # 412: #1 {NW} # Aux: #2 And then uh # 412: #1 {NW} # Aux: #2 We {X} # We planted the {X} you see them long and limber there you can reach out {X} Interviewer: Was that, there what about that long? Aux: Oh, about longer than that Interviewer: What, four feet 412: You get that tall broom sedge Might be way up here real soon up long one but instead of some of that short you know it would be way down like that Interviewer: What about, anywhere from, what three and a half to five feet? 412: Yeah I'd say so Five, let's see I'm nearly six yeah, five would be about right, I'd say Interviewer: You ever find any seven or eight feet tall around here? 412: You mean broom sedge? Interviewer: Yeah 412: No, but I can take you back to that black belt and let you see whole pastures of it Interviewer: but, it's that tall? How does does it get how tall is you've ever seen it uh, get? 412: Well, the tallest I've ever seen is in the black belt Around Montgomery and out West of Montgomery anywhere in that black belt country Interviewer: How tall does it get down there? 412: I'd say We've seen it eight feet all right Goodness, it, it grows but our broom sedge simply doesn't grow that tall almost never, unless it's a very rich place Then it, broom sedge won't grow that long Interviewer: Yeah {NW} okay Uh, how about, now this is kind of a fill in the blank Is it like, uh women, uh, usually or some years ago, anyway, women usually did their what on Monday? 412: you meant their washing? Interviewer: Yes 412: Yeah Uh, that was common practice with Mama Interviewer: Was it fairly common? 412: That's what she used to do, what and Sally in the early days Still do it a good bit Aux: We still wash on Mondays 412: Yeah Interviewer: Uh Aux: If it permits Interviewer: The uh, after, uh After you do the washing and, uh, hanging 'em out to dry and everything like that uh and you got it going and uh and, what do you call that? 412: #1 Well, I iron a press # Interviewer: #2 when you {X} # 412: I don't know what else you'd Fold, someday you just fold 'em and lay 'em away Interviewer: Okay If a door is open and you don't want it that way, what might you tell someone to do with it? 412: Well, it'd depend on who it was and how you felt about 'em Interviewer: {NW} okay 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 If it was # 412: #1 but in any # Interviewer: #2 somebody # 412: case you'd say uh "How about shutting that door?" "Shut that door!" Interviewer: Okay 412: {NW} Interviewer: Okay 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 What do you # call it, the boards on the outside of the house that lap over each other? 412: Uh Yeah, I guess you talking about batting board and we used to have a another time for cabins that were built with your boards up and down and then strip like you're talking about I've tried several times lately to remember what we did say and I save my soul, I can't #1 recall it # Interviewer: #2 I think the one you're talking about now are vertical # 412: yeah Interviewer: Alright, and now what about the ones that are horizontal? You call those 412: #1 Well # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: We didn't use batting boards that way Interviewer: Okay, but you used batting boards vertically 412: We'd either use, uh sh- uh, s- uh Not ceiling, uh Well in modern times we used ship lap a good bit and uh, weather boarding, for goodness sake! Interviewer: okay Aux: Clap board, you need to call 'em 412: Yeah, clap boards would be applied a certain, that, that same technique on a certain clapboards we use on the roof but you could use clapboards on the side, you know {NW} Interviewer: o-o-on a roo- on a house that's kind of an L-shaped house, you know and, and the roof comes together What do you call a with the angle With the where the roof comes together, it's like that Do you have a name for that? 412: Um, yeah Used to have I don't think it's in the mind anymore Interviewer: Okay, how about valley, is that a 412: Yeah, valley is valley Interviewer: Yeah, would that be the right term 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 Do you think, that you might use? # 412: Yeah Interviewer: Okay um What would you call 412: #1 Now wait a minute, if you're talking about # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: uh, an L-shaped house it wouldn't necessarily be a valley uh Interviewer: Well you know, for just the two angles of the roof would meet with the, with the pitch of the two roofs would be 412: It's, it's sometimes to think would be tied in with a tin hip roof now this could be a hip roof just like this this also an A-roof Interviewer: Yeah 412: I think maybe hip roof would come near she was getting at I'm not sure of that #1 Now would a hip roof # Interviewer: #2 anymore # Now, in Flor- in Florida now, 412: Yeah Interviewer: we call a hip roof uh, similar to a hurricane roof which is uh, uh a roof that has four four sides, four surfaces to it and uh uh, in other words it's it's uh it has a normal pitch from left to right but it also has a pitch on both ends 412: Yeah, I know what you're talking about Papa {X} I both built houses like that uncle how it followed Papa But that's not the only time, the only place where we'd use the term "hip roof" Interviewer: Alright, now how would you use "hip roof" in that, now I'm not too sure about this now 412: Well I'm not sure either, uh in the sense that you're trying to clarify uh you'd say this man put a hip roof on his house uh I don't know any other way we'd use it Interviewer: Okay Uh what about, uh, a building that might be used for storing wood or tools, an outbuilding, what'd you call that? 412: Uh, well, you'd call it a number of things we say here, uh uh well, we don't usually say kindling house, it could be uh We never used it as a tool shed except the keys when we've stored wood in our tool shed but, don't anymore but this little, uh house we've got out here wood house Interviewer: okay 412: right there near well you haven't been out there, I don't think there right next to Jake's pen Interviewer: How about uh uh, what would you what would you used to call outdoor toilets what would you... name for that 412: Well back house for one thing Interviewer: Back house 412: Yeah And of course the old common term that they use, uh usually in public, uh uh TV and so on when these health people get to talking uh uh Aux: Privy 412: Yeah privy Interviewer: Now, wa-was there any, uh uh, uh terms like uh 412: #1 {X} # Interviewer: #2 you use # for joking, joking around, talking about it You know, in that, you know it's something 412: #1 Y-yeah # Interviewer: #2 that you might be talking about # 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 joke # 412: uh let's see I mentioned back house and outhouse then Sally mentioned privy uh, sure I don't even remember those anymore Interviewer: Okay um well you know, like "johnny" or something like that 412: Yeah, yeah johnny's a common term, mm-hmm Interviewer: mm-kay Do you, uh, think of the word "common" do you have a well, for example someone came out and said, "well he's a common person" would you put a, a certain type of moral judgment on that word? 412: It's, depending on uh setting, I would Interviewer: Yes 412: It might not mean that Interviewer: Right, yeah, uh 412: #1 If you say # Interviewer: #2 In other words # 412: uh "these are the common people" you wouldn't mean that at all Interviewer: Right, but if someone came up and said "he, oh he's just a common man" 412: #1 No, no # Interviewer: #2 Or "he's just a common person" # 412: You'd say, uh "he's common" or "she's common" Uh, I'm not gonna let my children run with bunch of Interviewer: So in that sense, there's kind of a, a value 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 placed on it # Okay 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Uh, this structure's called # A house, two of 'em would be called what? uh 412: #1 you mean two # Interviewer: #2 or three # two or, two or three of these 412: houses? Interviewer: right, okay 412: that's all I ever call 'em Interviewer: Okay, I'm just getting the plural 412: #1 Yeah {NW} # Interviewer: #2 I kinda think we got it # We were talking about a house earlier 412: Yeah Interviewer: See a lot of these are just 412: #1 uh-huh # Interviewer: #2 pronunciations, just literally # Um And and what uh, uh what's the big building behind a, a farm, where the hay's stored? and the cattle maybe and 412: Well we usually call it barn but it might be the hay house or the hay barn or could be other things Interviewer: Did you have one on your folks', uh place? 412: Had several Interviewer: okay did what uh, what were all the what, what might you put in, I mean, what all would you put in 'em I mean 412: Well Papa and um and a great many farmers all through this area when they got well enough off would build a barn with a hall in it I think this is what you would've found on most of better established farms In that case you'd usually put your mule or horse stables on one side of the alley and on the other side you might have a cotton-seed house a cotton house before the gin you'd usually have your corn room or corn crib part on the other side you might have a all the fertilizer and seed and your tool room all together and then above you'd have your a loft #1 for your hay # Interviewer: #2 loft? # 412: #1 but you # Interviewer: #2 Did you ever hear it called anything else? # besides a loft? 412: Oh, you'd say Look upstairs and see what you could find Interviewer: Yeah 412: You'd climb up the ladder that was in the hall #1 And that # Interviewer: #2 Have you ever heard # referred to as a "mow" or mow? 412: Sometimes, uh We didn't use that commonly Interviewer: Yeah, okay, I'm sorry Didn't mean to interrupt you I just 412: Now if you had hay in the field, you'd speak of a haystack Interviewer: okay How about, if you had if you had just a building that was exclusively used to store grain, what might you call that? 412: Uh, we solemn had it Interviewer: Okay 412: uh You, you might have um You know I don't remember that Well We never ha- you find it up in the mountains but we never had these uh bins where you'd put corn where we would wouldn't bother 'em you know you'd have snow or something else and you could what you, I think that was a lot in Illinois and Indiana and all through that one time, maybe it still is Interviewer: Right 412: We almost never did that uh I don't know that we'd have any special term for a grain house Interviewer: What about a 412: Now you might I, I think in the old days, uh you'd speak of your wheat bin, you'd try to make it tight, you know and maybe put a type of ceiling or something else that you could fit tightly together for you uh wheat room wheat bin or sometimes we used to store it in barrels Interviewer: barrel 412: yeah Interviewer: okay What, now if you took, uh some, some corn or something to a mill what, what might be the smallest 412: #1 You asked that question # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: #1 the other day when we # Interviewer: #2 the other day # 412: talking here #1 And I pretty well agreed we # Interviewer: #2 What was that # 412: I think we'd sell 'em go less than a peck and I think ordinarily we maybe go with as much as a bushel or more depending on what we wanted, see this wouldn't have been necessarily generally true Papa used to feed uh ground corn to his hogs we might feed chopped corn to a mule if the mule's teeth were bad so he might take a, might go in a wagon, take several bushels and we sell 'em uh, I sell 'em well I don't think James and I either one ever went horseback much, I've gone a few times with a bag of corn, you know, just over your shoulders, in the front part of the saddle I don't recall any other Interviewer: Do you, have you ever seen a building that might just have four poles and a sliding roof used to store, uh oh, maybe uh hay, or something like that? 412: Well hay racks, uh We use various types, uh curing racks, we use uh, tripods and you'll have, uh one set of poles going about so high so as to there wouldn't be any rotting and they'd be nailed on with heavy nails, to your tripod proper and then that would project out from the poles so that you'd build your hay rick on up to the top Interviewer: How about uh, um You ever heard that maybe called a "hay barrack?" 412: No Interviewer: okay, how about um uh when you first cut hay uh what, you mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I think uh, you need clarification when you first cut the hay, what do you do with it? When you very first cut it 412: You mean uh we let it dry and then windrow it, if that's what you're getting at Interviewer: Okay Or, or do you know any names for small piles of hay raked up in a field? outside a windrow? 412: #1 I don't remember any time # Interviewer: #2 Just maybe any {X} # 412: #1 when we, you might {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Oh # 412: {NW} if you just had a pile of grass, or sort of beans or cow peter or whatever you might say there's a pile, right over there you missed Interviewer: okay Alright, uh besides, uh, the barn did you ever have any special place where you'd milk a cow, maybe outside 412: Mm, well many barns and {NW} this is true of a great many through our area you might shed this whole barn in one section would be your milking part where you did, where you kept your cows in bad weather and then you might milk in there sometimes depending on the direction of your barn {NW} {NW} and the hive was um protected from the north, you might milk in the hall if you had a general cow, and then you had yourself protected and it was a cold morning, or a cold night Interviewer: Did you have any, uh hogs or pigs? 412: Oh yeah that's where I got my start Interviewer: Is that right? uh, where, where would you keep your hogs, pigs? 412: Well, we didn't keep 'em in pens uh like a great many did, not course we'd put 'em in pens usually to fatten but we ran them in the out pasture and um rotation fields that sort of thing Interviewer: how about uh uh, uh Where did people used to keep their milk and butter before the days of refrigeration, what might you call 412: in the well Interviewer: in the well? 412: Not the butter, but the milk Interviewer: okay, would you keep the butter separate? 412: uh, well Mama'd keep it as cool as she could I don't remember if she ever put butter in the well, Sally, but Aux: I don't... 412: That was Aux: {X} 412: that was a regular practice for your buttermilk you know put it in the northwest corner of the well Interviewer: northwest corner? 412: yeah #1 that's that was a coldish # Interviewer: #2 What # 412: #1 corner # Interviewer: #2 oh # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 Was that always the coldest corner? # 412: #1 Oh yeah # Interviewer: #2 Is it, is it really # 412: #1 Oh that was a saying, or so, which I think would # Interviewer: #2 Is that really the... oh # 412: That, that was where you'd put it You'd wanna big glass of buttermilk after a hard day's work right in the northwest corner of the well same thing for the water Interviewer: okay, what, what would you call a, uh, like like if you had a large enough herd, dairy, uh, uh cattle to produce, uh milk and butter and things, what would you uh would you have like a room, or place for processing it 412: it would depend on uh the nature of your customers and how large an operation you had, sort #1 dairy # Interviewer: #2 What would you call that? # 412: #1 huh? # Interviewer: #2 Excuse me # What would you call that place? 412: Well, "dairy" is as such well I'd say fairly late in coming in this area you had a family cow, you might have family cow and you'd sell butter, or you'd sell milk and butter to some of the neighbors but as um as a major uh item I don't think you'd have found it much Interviewer: okay 412: #1 Now # Interviewer: #2 this the # 412: I'm sure a good many farm wise uh who didn't sell any milk sold a lot of butter or you'd sometimes trade your butter we used to have peddlers all through this area Interviewer: Did, did large farms, this is, this is this is my own curiosity did large farms around here when they did sell a little extra butter, maybe they had a little extra butter they wanted to sell on the and they have, oh, maybe even as much as ten pounds they went over fifty pounds they wanna get rid of, I doubt they'd have that much, maybe so would they use their own personal farms, would they have a stamp made, uh a stamp 412: #1 Well this was # Interviewer: #2 make, make it into # 412: This was one of their trademarks Sally, we've got two or three of those molds, now haven't we? oh Sometimes you just buy a mold because it was available, but I'm sure uh people who sold a good bit of butter would soon be recognized by their by their mold Aux: top of the mold {X} 412: {NW} Aux: or other designs cut into the wood so when you pack the butter in that round mold it would leave that impression on Interviewer: Yes ma'am Aux: seen butter molded Interviewer: That's what I was asking about, now I know some farms, uh got to the practice, even if they didn't make a, a sale, on the you know, uh, practice 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 normally selling butter # of having um their own personal stamp 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 Maybe, it's their initials or # 412: #1 mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 or something in the butter, so people knew # 412: #1 yeah # Interviewer: #2 where it came from, if it tasted or if they were particularly proud of their butter, so # 412: Well you see in this area Sally, into the forties, I I don't remember when did that curd market start? Aux: {X} 412: Well anyway the curd market farmer's curd market gained a great standing over a period of years, now I couldn't say when it began, uh it died out after World War two This was where your a great many of your substantial farmers and your country minded uh, let's say town-minded people town dwelling people who loved country flavors and tastes would meet maybe two days a week or three days a week or whatever this was a curd market and {NW} {NW} {NW} {NW} {NW} You might take milk and butter chickens, eggs, or fresh vegetables fruits or whatever uh, sausage hams I don't think we ever saw sold raw beef, Sally fresh beef you'd pedal that out among your neighbors, you'd kill a beef and cut it up and then you'd put in your wagon and maybe you'd buggy and you'd just drive around among your neighbors {NW} sell it and then uh, maybe Next month, why We'd kill one and then we'd drive around and sell it to the neighbors Interviewer: So you had kind of a co-op type of 412: That is, an a informal co-op, that's what it amounted to Interviewer: That's interesting 412: {NW} Interviewer: uh, um Does the word "dairy" have any other connotation at all to you, does does it mean anything else? besides, uh 412: Well it, it meant, um large operations too and that sort That's about all I'd say Interviewer: Okay Uh, what would you call a place where you where you let your cattle uh go, uh, graze? 412: Well Ordinarily, uh in this area we spoke of a pasture but sometimes we often said, and this was used in emotion among agricultural workers and leadership define a pasture, you know, as a piece of land with a barbed wire fence around it Interviewer: That's a definition of a, sort of a formal 412: Uh, type pastures we once had that was when it you weren't really trying to feed your animals or take care of 'em just a place you implied is derogatory Interviewer: I was just curious now, uh, uh how big does a piece of land have to be before it's uh well let's put it this way you you grow you grow cotton out in a in a in a what 412: Yeah Interviewer: What do what do you call the area place that you grow cotton? 412: Well, it's usually a field Interviewer: Okay now how Might be a patch Okay now how, what's the what's the size difference between a field or a patch? 412: I think it would vary with individual and it probably would vary some from area to area for example back up here in the red land, where you sell a family a big field to them uh, a, well I better say it this way what was a field to them might be a patch for us down here in the sandy land and what would be a field to us might not be a field at all to a man way down in the black belt up in that black Illinois country Interviewer: Would it, would it then it depends on it uh, on each individual person's nature of, uh, size Is it 412: Well uh, yeah, surroundings and way he operated maybe all his life Interviewer: What what kind of things might you you consider, what would you call uh consider things grown in a patch? 412: Well, you know we talked about that the other day You could speak of a sugar cane patch but it might be right down next to the branch and in the same field there would be corn but you'd put the corn up high on a slope, you'd put the cane right down on the flat, next to branch, or the creek maybe uh We'd grow a patch of watermelons, maybe a few rows of cantaloupe or a row of cantaloupe you might have a pea patch uh most of our cotton was cotton patches almost at one time in the old one horse days Interviewer: How big would that be now, a one-horse cotton patch? 412: #1 Well, um # Interviewer: #2 Like would it be an acre or two? # 412: Usually, a one-horse farmer wouldn't try to have more than ten acres of cotton and he might have that in Well, one or two or three spots three or four acres maybe in this patch here and then another two or three acres and then another #1 put a patch somewhere # Interviewer: #2 But a... if # if all those patches happen to be together it's all a big ten acres then I just thought it might be a field 412: Well there are plenty of areas through here that if a man had ten acres that was a field Interviewer: Right, okay 412: #1 and # Interviewer: #2 How about if # excuse me, go ahead 412: And, and I could take in uh, very far from here, where he, maybe he'd even have to have nearly fifty, a hundred acres to think he had a field #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 That's for Texas, maybe, like if you get to # Well, I was at a farm out in Kansas in a man's farm, in twenty-five hundred acres 412: Yeah Interviewer: Now, he doesn't consider it a field unless it's over fifty acres 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 Or a hundred or something! # You know, he still talks about fifty, sixty, seventy acres like "we got a patch of land over here, patch of land over here" and that's It has more than most people would wanna even look in 412: Well, way out in west Texas, uh We had a friend years ago, a man who'd come from the very bottom to a multimillionaire father was a tenant farmer and he used to say that it took more land for his tractors to turn around on than his father cultivated and he just for a stunt, of course would sometimes put on a demonstration of a eight, I believe it was eight tractors with only one man at each end directing them he had four controls or other similar controls and these rows would be I believe about up to about a mile and a half long Interviewer: It could get monotonous if he's riding it 412: Well {NW} You wouldn't be riding, you see, you'd be at the end of the field and you'd saw this Number seven tractor coming and you'd be prepared to get on it Turn you around #1 and then it's laying # Interviewer: #2 Oh I see! # 412: And then you put it the other end Yeah, your other buddy might be turning around number one on his end, and then starting in the back Interviewer: Well that's, uh, I've never even seen, I've never heard of that! 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Is that a fairly common practice? # in the, on large farms? 412: Uh, I would suspect that that was a prototype of what maybe they've done even more dramatically today But, to us, that was phenomenal, you know Interviewer: Uh, that's almost, that's almost like going to the moon 412: Yeah Two men driving eight tractors {NW} Interviewer: Uh, what kind of a, uh fences might you have around bar, uh around a house? Around a farmhouse? 412: Uh, it would vary. In the, in the old days and you see I was born in the last period of that age you quite often would have rail fences Interviewer: Spikes, split, split rails? 412: yeah I'll show you some chestnut rails before you leave, right out here My cousin, Johnny Adams and I uh, he discovered and then he and I dug 'em up in the bottom of a stream up the road here, several miles about six feet in the ground laid crossway Interviewer: When they were already there, they were still intact, good? I mean, uh 412: #1 You, you've seen 'em when you look at 'em # Interviewer: #2 Well # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: Course chestnut's a last, long lasting wood #1 And what was, what was the other part you asked? # Interviewer: #2 Oh I was just curious # what kind of fences might you find around a 412: #1 Well, of course, uh # Interviewer: #2 a, a farmhouse # 412: every home of any consequence in this area in those days had around his home a white paling fence, or the equivalent Interviewer: a white paling? 412: Paling #1 P-A-L-I-N-G. Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Is that the vertical kind? Like # Like, uh, what might be another name for 412: yeah Or you might cut one-by-one inch, uh pieces and then saw 'em the right length some of 'em had those some of 'em had ornamented paling is it might put a little, uh, design in the top of the paling some would put, uh, uh sharp point, like that, that's like we got down yonder at the museum now Interviewer: Right 412: You find all sorts of combinations but you had to uh, the law was exactly the opposite of what it is today today, you must be responsible for what your stray animals do to your neighbor, or to your next neighbor but in those days, uh this is open range country and you protected your fields in your house, and yo- and your yards and all Interviewer: Alright, um {NW} Did you ever raise, well, we talked a bit course, I guess you raised cotton did you ever work, in a, in a cotton field? 412: #1 Oh no, gee # Interviewer: #2 yourself? # What was what were {NW}, what were some of the things you did? 412: Everything must be done under the old system Now, we never dropped cotton seed by hand but it hadn't been a, been a many years removed uh When they were dropping cotton seed by hand and putting down fertilizer in a funnel, I I'm sure you never saw one of those funnels Interviewer: Not a fertilizer funnel, no sir 412: Well we were still using those when I was a boy Interviewer: how did the fertilizer funnel work? 412: Well ain't nothing in the world but a great long cylinder, about got one down yonder at the museum luckily we found one bout that round uh size #1 and about # Interviewer: #2 above three {X} # 412: Yeah, I guess, some of the horns were, you call 'em get out a horn about so long and then #1 here at the top you'd have a # Interviewer: #2 About four feet # 412: a convex funnel Interviewer: okay 412: to catch it, and uh, you'd uh drop your seed or sometimes you, you just had a kind of a bagging sack of manure and you spread the manure down the row and take it out of your bag here and down through the funnel into the {D: fur} #1 {NW} {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Did you catch a {X} was it mounted on wheels? # 412: #1 No it wasn't mounted on anything, you held it # Interviewer: #2 you held it # You drop it, and that's so you wouldn't hit the bin 412: yeah Interviewer: oh I see 412: yeah Interviewer: Okay Did you ever- 412: Now, we would we were out of that era already uh if we spread manure anytime after I was big enough to remember we'd use a hollowed out wagon and spread it with pitchforks but it hadn't been many years, uh I've made specific efforts to find out the earliest that we had any kind of, uh mechanical cotton seed planter in this area and as far as I can find out and we got, uh a later, improved type of what apparently the originals were about eighteen ninety-four is the earliest period when we didn't plant cotton by hand there must've been some good farmers who were also good mechanics or good designers, and they went to blacksmith and had some sort of tool made We got one very simple uh dropper really didn't sold us, really a dropper It was designed simply to put on your ply-stocking plant but even so this as far as I can find out so far, doesn't go back much farther than about eighteen ninety-four, ninety-three Interviewer: Mm 412: One one of our long-time friends who died about three years ago, already, two years ago when she was in her nineties told me that she remembered when her father bought the first, what we call dow-law planter Interviewer: Uh, what was that again? 412: Dow-law. D-O-W dash L A W must of been the name of the two men chiefly concerned with the company that's what they all call it, dow-law planter and she said people came from eight or ten miles all in this area to see mr John's new planter they live right below us on the home place about two miles from and she said people heard about it and just came from all around just to see what it was like Interviewer: hmm 412: Well today, you see {NW} Bill plants, uh four rows With his tractor, outfit he puts down the fertilizer, he puts down his chemical he puts down his uh seed and he may put another chemical on top after the planter the tools have covered the seed Interviewer: All at once? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Hmm 412: one man on the tractor #1 Course you # Interviewer: #2 That's quite an operation # 412: you got to have one or more men at the turnaround to keep it busy, fill up with fertilizer chemicals, and so, and seeds Interviewer: Yes sir uh, uh, what do you call uh hoeing uh cotton 412: Hoeing? Interviewer: Yeah, when you're out there hoeing cotton, what do you call that? 412: Hoeing Interviewer: In between, you know, do you ever call it anything else? 412: well, you might be bunching #1 You might be thinning it # Interviewer: #2 Yeah with a hoe? # Thinning 412: bunching and thinning are somewhat similar in meaning, not quite Interviewer: Okay 412: If you had, if you had an extra good you might say, "blocking out" we'd sometimes use that uh Interviewer: What kind of undesirable grass uh, or, uh would you have or what would you call undesirable grass 412: #1 Oh Lord # Interviewer: #2 Grass or grasses over there # 412: #1 Don't start me on that one # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # Can you just get a couple of 'em? 412: I, well I I'd say, in the old days, um probably crabgrass, now now I'm talking now just about our area this wouldn't even apply necessarily to the red land Interviewer: right 412: {NW} but Interviewer: Yes sir 412: In our sandy land here we'd have uh crabgrass coffee weed uh, cocklebur and I never have been, uh stuffy enough to say "cocklebur" I still say cocklebur {C: pronunciation cock-uh-bur} uh Parsley or {D: parslin} as it's usually spelled in the botany books uh We did not have pigweed, either smooth or prickly uh, we didn't have many of the weeds that you have now uh for example, right in this garden here nut grass had been given, we didn't have nut grass in the old day, and Bill has a problem, he's he's about to line a combination of techniques that looks like it'll get rid of it for years but you have to plant corn on the same land for a year course there's nothing else that will stand the chemical that he used but he's virtually eradicated uh nut grass by that method, just yesterday at noon, when I told you we made this big circle to have a look at his crop in general he showed me a big field of soybeans that a cousin of mine planted and the boy's not energetic, he got sins kind of lazy and he had just let nut grass run away with soybeans Bill and I were figuring if he could ever get out, and we don't believe he can we don't see a chance for him to even break even it just can't, it's just eaten up with nut grass and he just didn't go in there at the proper time Interviewer: you gotta watch out for the soybeans 412: mm yeah Interviewer: soybeans, uh really can 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 well they're delicate for a while # 412: yeah Interviewer: Okay, uh, uh now, I don't know if you had this problem around here but uh, now if you had a field that's full of stones okay, and some farmers might take the stones and pile 'em alongside a field and make 'em a fence with 'em, what might you call that fence, if uh 412: Well we didn't talk about the fence so much but uh We had this, this was nothing unusual up here in the red lands and they'd usually, uh well, this house was built out of stones that were picked up in the fields, and used to build bench terraces if you know what bench terraces are Interviewer: Now a Now, is now a bench terrace, now is that alongside a field? 412: No no, {NW} no {NS} you know the, the type terrace that we tried to build today is one that has a say this is down here on this side this of course would be lower than this and this would be higher if you do a good enough job and don't have a flood to slowly direct the water in whatever direction you want it to go #1 keep it # Interviewer: #2 like, uh # keep it from making a 412: Swiggling across a field and just eroding it well uh What is it I wanted to tell you Interviewer: About the terrace 412: Yeah the indication, the bench terrace Let's say you have, let me see if I can make you one here's your upper slope now and it's a pretty steep slope and it doesn't take much hunting to find five to seven percent slopes right across the creek over here soggy hatchet they tried, and and still do and and today with all the equipment we got you can do a good job they would build the type terraces also that we uh that we have been building here, for many gener- well, three generations four generations we started at grandpa but then you'd you know you got to have, a a a step-down somehow and and they would take the rocks, let's say and they would start making a pile about the line that they figured the terrace ought to run Well eventually, you see maybe this stone uh line here maybe several levels Would, in the beginning, it would be, let's say, uh well, maybe about his high above this part here but over a period of time, the sheet erosion from this level to here would fill that in and eventually you'd have a terrace that just stood up like this and then it dropped down sharp and then it level off again, I mean then start sloping again, then you'd have another bench terrace Interviewer: The soil will actually fill in next to the wall? 412: Yeah, yeah Interviewer: okay 412: #1 And # Interviewer: #2 mr Ward was # Telling me about that, he he, now he'd call 'em uh, a step-bench fence but I think he was referring to the uh those terrace things that you 412: #1 uh-huh # Interviewer: #2 were talking about, he said # said he'd make a step-bench fence along a field 412: yeah Interviewer: and is that, is that the same thing? 412: I never heard that term, but that sounds like maybe he that's what he told me Interviewer: Yeah, yeah 412: uh eventually you see, you'd have a, a hole and it's larger in this land than the piedmont, some was cleared that never should've been cleared, anyway but eventually, if a man was a pretty good farmer and he was really trying to save his land, he'd have a whole field maybe ten acres or might have more than that sometimes well you'd come to here, come from come down this slope here was a level area we'll say ten feet wide or some other width and then you'd stop sharp down where the old terrace part was and then here'd be another level and literally it's um it's the same technique that these uh fifth Cole boys are being told to do now, you know you #1 One plateau down to another # Interviewer: #2 sure, right # 412: #1 and you get # Interviewer: #2 what # I understood the terracing part, I just never understood this that you putting the wall up and 412: #1 yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 and the wash up to it # 412: well well we got mostly is rock {NW} we'll pile around these terrace contours and uh over the generation, and this was already in pines when we hauled 'em out we took a mattock, a pick, and sometimes a shovel we just go around those terraces and we pick out of the dirt pull the rocks out and if it looked like it was sound they went in the truck, we wore a truck out building this house second an intro, not an old, not a new one {NW} {NW} and we got enough rock from a series of terraces about three mile I guess, out here let's see here three mile would be about right build this house and we had everything we've got um We've got one little here over this door I think, though, we got that out of the bottom of a stream but it took a block and tackle to put that in place over the door, we got one huge rock on this east side above the window took uh I believe it was five hours to put it in place and we've got some very large rocks over on this side we put in that way Interviewer: So this whole house was built from uh almost step-bench terracing 412: Yeah #1 Oh yeah # Interviewer: #2 stone # 412: #1 See this was done in # Interviewer: #2 well that's that's # 412: slavery days the, the fields, and land was originally entries and uh the rocks were there then and as they began to farm it the rocks began to work to the surface and like the old saying in New england, you know "rocks just nationally grow" Interviewer: {NW} 412: and that's almost true when you start dealing with that type of land Interviewer: Okay, uh Now when you put up a barbed wire fence, you mentioned that a little bit earlier 412: yeah Interviewer: um, uh you have to dig a hole to put the uh 412: post in Interviewer: alright, and two or three of those are called 412: #1 two or three # Interviewer: #2 if you have # 412: wires? Interviewer: No, the, the post, if you have two or three posts how, what do you, what's the plural of post, in other words? 412: Well, we just said "posts" Interviewer: okay, for more than one? 412: yeah Interviewer: okay 412: yeah Interviewer: and uh, if you wanted to make a hen start laying okay you might put something under her to fool her? 412: #1 Oh yeah you talking # Interviewer: #2 what would you call that? # 412: about an old nest egg? Interviewer: yeah what might that be made out of? 412: well all we ever got in this area were made out of, uh hmm, what do we call that stuff the shiny white Interviewer: Well, it would be the same stuff that dishes, the real fine dishes are made out of? 412: I think it was similar, uh but it wasn't near that uh thick Interviewer: it well, you know like a, like a real fine dishes are called what? I'm trying to elicit a word here, so the big co- the big country with all the orientals 412: oh you talking about like the English, uh manufacturers? Interviewer: of, uh, of this type of 412: #1 yeah # Interviewer: #2 dishes # 412: #1 oh # Interviewer: #2 what do you call that dish ware? # 412: you got me again, I wouldn't I know what you're talking about but Interviewer: Alright, we got, we got the Soviet Union and the red and the other one, the other big one 412: What are you talking about, China? #1 Well # Interviewer: #2 Okay, that's the word I was looking for # 412: #1 Yeah, what # Interviewer: #2 Would, would you ever have a china egg? # 412: We did say china egg some, too Interviewer: okay uh The only reason I have to go surreptitiously around to get these 412: #1 yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 words, I try not to influence your pronunciation before you say it # Um and, and you mentioned earlier that you kept your uh milk products in the well 412: If you didn't have any sort of refrigeration, or see a good many people had uh springs and they could put do the same thing in the springs Interviewer: what would you, what would you keep your milk, uh Or, let's put this what would you get your water out of the well with? 412: Well, we use several Papa, all my lifetime, had a Windlass and a bucket but Interviewer: Was it a, uh what was the bucket made out of? 412: It was usually galvanized bucket, but the old oaken bucket was still in uh very much in the public eye long after I was born and we, we also had eaten and we still got 'em least I know where there is one unless it's been You ever seen a well sweep? Interviewer: No sir, what's that? 412: It's a, it's a pivoting type of thing you have a great long uh arm and it's simply a pole it's balanced at the right tilting uh edge tilting point Interviewer: The fulcrum? 412: #1 Yeah yeah # Interviewer: #2 Is that what you were # 412: and you just simply let the bucket down, you push your pole up, you know, and and then the bucket, uh gets full, and then you pull that and the pole helps to pull the bucket up #1 So # Interviewer: #2 Oh I see # It's like a lever 412: yeah yeah so you don't put, uh all of your effort into bringing it up You got to work it both ways, you got to put some effort into pushing your sweep up and then the sweep helps you to lessen your effort pulling the water up Interviewer: hmm Now if you- 412: #1 Now also, uh # Interviewer: #2 took a # 412: A great many people, and we used it some too especially something having to work uh, we'd call a windlass you'd have a swivel windlass they built two types usually one with a small wheel, this is when you had a a, a regular windlass the ones we used would be about so round but sometimes, uh if you just had a rope and a bucket and the windlass only you might get one about so big and this made it easy to pull it in, you see cuz it, it rolled in more slowly Interviewer: yes Uh, if you, if you carried water in a bucket what might you use to carry milk in? 412: We might say 'pail' but we'd usually say bucket Interviewer: Okay and if the, if the pail, or the bucket, if it was you said it was galvanized, mainly? 412: yeah Interviewer: if it, if it got so dirty that you wouldn't wanna use it for humans what what, and you use it to feed your hog, what would you call that? 412: We might call it a slop bucket Interviewer: okay 412: Its own thing, i don't know Interviewer: And uh Getting a little ahead of myself here the uh um the, the the uh utensil in the kitchen used for, to fry eggs in the morning, what would you call that? 412: you mean the spider? Interviewer: Again, please? 412: The spider? Interviewer: Spider? 412: mm-hmm Interviewer: Is that the, now 412: #1 Usually, what # Interviewer: #2 Would you, would you fry chicken in that too? # 412: #1 Well, uh # Interviewer: #2 Would that maybe # 412: uh Spider, usually, i believe was probably more often for cooktop cornbread, uh corn pone uh, you probably talking about a or a regular iron {NW} shoot I can't even think of the {NW} term now uh it it was a frying pan, but we didn't call it a frying pan Sally Aux: This is a question you usually 412: Nah, yeah, that's a spider Interviewer: That's a spider? 412: #1 But- what- # Interviewer: #2 It's like, it's like a frying pan without the sides # 412: What we call a deep one that you cook eggs in Aux: Oh, just a skillet 412: Skillet! Interviewer: Skillet. 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Okay # 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 Now that's what you cook # Little pones of bread, like that, little flat corn pones Interviewer: Yes Aux: #1 And you put 'em all around that # Interviewer: #2 Yes ma'am # Aux: and then you they have a little grease on it top and you get the imprint of your fingers on and they real crusty Interviewer: Crusty? Aux: That's what we used to do but that little skillet I got now, the modern one that I cook the little triangles in, that's something new Interviewer: That's who Aux: and uh it, it, they had just come out with that somebody in Birmingham Interviewer: Uh 412: Show him one, Sally! Interviewer: That's called a spider? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Okay, speaking of corn um 412: Now there's uh, there's one other kitchen item maybe not for me #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Oh, I see # Aux: See now this is When he uh Interviewer: They look like a pie has been divided Aux: Except for, and this is the little one we bake in, most of the time, this is the size, it makes seven pieces and he's out working with his cu- and he said well I'll be there going and they sorta laughed at {X} 412: #1 Mm-hmm yeah # Aux: #2 {X} # And it just sold like hotcakes then they came out with this little {X} 412: That's that's the kind you had at #1 Yeah, these little bitty # Aux: #2 At {X} # #1 See then you, you # Interviewer: #2 But # Aux: Bread is crusty, all on the sides #1 Now, uh-huh, and the bottom # Interviewer: #2 And top too # Aux: But that, they bake real good Interviewer: And you used to bake in, you ever do anything on the top of the stove with them? Aux: No, uh-uh, now, we have a granddaughter that's interested in foods, and she uses this to bake little cakes for you then Interviewer: Oh Aux: And, and she never uses {NS} it to make cornbread, she {NS} uses more than this to do cake in but I never have tried that Interviewer: so you do like, cupcakes Aux: #1 I # Interviewer: #2 Like # Aux: I get, I do 412: #1 Well # Aux: #2 more # 412: #1 Now the old, the muffin ring # Aux: #2 Well I'll show 'em # 412: Is more {X}, especially for made cupcakes here {NS} Interviewer: um I was just uh, since we were Talking about, there was a a section in here on on uh cornbread, I'm just gonna uh, uh, what's all the different types of breads that you can think of that are made from cornmeal? 412: Well uh through this area muffins, and uh #1 Corn sticks, yeah # Aux: #2 Now this, this belonged to your grandma # 412: Yeah #1 That's for muffins, you see # Aux: #2 that's heavy, it's for muffins # 412: #1 You could cook cake muffins # Aux: #2 and you could # 412: #1 And sally could # Aux: #2 You could make, yeah I have made cake muffins in it # And they make the prettiest little muffins and Interviewer: Well that is heavy Aux: it is heavy, that #1 That, that's granddaddy's grandmother # Interviewer: #2 that's cast # Aux: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # Aux: And um, I hadn't used it in a long time between the barber and kids Interviewer: It just looks like a Well actually looks like, so like a the modern, uh, looks like a 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 Modern Jello mold type of thing # 412: Mm. Well you could make uh, muffins, corn sticks corn- Aux: stick pan 412: yeah corn dodgers that's one thing I hope Sally'll never make Interviewer: Oh, yeah Aux: That corn stick- 412: #1 Mama's, yeah # Interviewer: #2 dodgers? # 412: Mama would make corn dodgers #1 and turnip greens # Aux: #2 Well I won't make that thing # 412: #1 No, just don't # Aux: #2 {X} {X} # 412: and then uh uh Egg bread, have you ever eaten egg bread? Interviewer: No I haven't {NS} 412: Well This is where you put, I don't know how many eggs put in it, but it has a little bit of different consistency Interviewer: What, uh 412: and then cornbread of course many types of cornbread Interviewer: {NS} okay Uh, uh uh 412: Are you familiar with dutch oven? Interviewer: With a, with a dutch oven? 412: Yeah Interviewer: in the side of a fireplace? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Yes sir 412: Yeah, well Interviewer: alright now, is that where you used to 412: #1 Well, when # Interviewer: #2 to bake your, uh # 412: When we came back to the farm in nineteen sixteen Papa and I would bet you over there and he uses dutch oven a lot, then to cook the bread or I imagine the baked potatoes perhaps other things Interviewer: Well suppose you have, uh, uh the type of cornbread that just has nothing but cornmeal, salt, and water, what would you call that? 412: Well Sally we don't we, that's what we have, isn't it? Aux: Uh, that, that's what the dockeys called a hoecake because it was baked at one time on a hoe Interviewer: on a hoe? Aux: On a hoe. Interviewer: As a chopping hoe? Aux: a chopping hoe, a flat hoe it has a hole back here where the handle is Interviewer: Alright Aux: and they made the fire, and they said that they put the whole cake, the water and the meal I think the Confederate soldiers 412: #1 I'm sure they did # Aux: #2 baked 'em # 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 on the, on this hoe # 412: #1 # Aux: #2 and they just set it on the fire and that's why it got its name, hoecake # Interviewer: I'll be doggone I heard uh uh, uh Mister Ward talk about a hoecake and I and I so did mr Gallette but I never thought I just thought that was a Aux: No, no, that's where it uh the {X} Interviewer: {NW} 412: See you could cook that on a spider too #1 Yeah, yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 On a spider, yeah on one of those little flat pans # What about, um Uh, how about do you ever remember any kind of cornbread that people talked about uh, just sitting on a board in front of a fireplace You ever heard of any cornbread being made like that? Now the hoecake's something like that 412: #1 Uh, on a board # Interviewer: #2 Uh, you know # Yeah, but this would just be like on a board, in front of fireplace 412: No, I sure haven't Interviewer: Okay How about uh, uh, or or the type that just might be laid in the ashes? 412: #1 Like what? # Interviewer: #2 For any kind # That type of cornbread that might just they might put it in the ashes of a fire 412: Yeah yeah that was well I don't remember the day I ever cooked Mama Papa ever cooked in the ashes but we'd cook potatoes in the ashes sweet potatoes Interviewer: Alright Uh, uh, let me see, are there any, you say what kind of a, a corn bread or, it's about an inch thick and it's large and round, you might cook it in a skillet uh, like on the top of the stove 412: Well I suspected If you got a group together, it'd be a lot of wrangling on that one cuz most of our people who are advertising cornmeal for cornbread and are selling, I'm noticing, remarkably they talking about all this, uh big old thick Corn or bread and I wouldn't have it on bed Interviewer: What about the type that's a mush? uh, what do you call that? 412: Well Mama never cooked it much, and I think Sally cooked it a little, and she never cooked it much, maybe when the children were small call it mush Interviewer: Just mush? 412: yeah Interviewer: Uh, you ever heard of any kind that might've been put in a cheesecloth, and dipped down in a frying grease? you ever heard of anything like that? 412: Sally you ever heard of a corn item like that? Aux: Uh-uh 412: that's brand new to me Interviewer: Okay, that's that might be a little, a little too How about uh, um Oh, what do you call it, the type that you put a little onion and pepper, uh pepper, green pepper maybe and eat it with fish? 412: Well Um, the, the people in Florida have a, a name for that I guess and we use it little bit and I don't even remember the name now uh Interviewer: You got shoes named after it 412: what? Interviewer: Like the little suede shoes named after 'em 412: oh The way we get 'em hear about that like that Interviewer: Yeah 412: I don't even remember the name Interviewer: Would you call them a hush puppy? 412: yeah #1 It's a branch {X} # Interviewer: #2 is that, okay # I was just curious, you ever, you know what a muck farm is? 412: Muck farm? Interviewer: yes 412: I know what it is in Florida Interviewer: no, they don't have any here? 412: No Interviewer: Down around the the, coastal regions or anything? 412: We may have some down around Mobile uh, in that swamp country Interviewer: okay 412: But there's no such thing up in here Interviewer: okay thank you 412: Usually Well if you had looked closely at at that, uh Spring we're digging out down there at the museum with me this morning you might have seen a something that would indicate what you talking about but most of our black lands long branches and uh small streams there the string usually is deep enough it keeps from dry-