412: Robert's been predicting that he would die for a long time or {NS} felt like he would. Interviewer: {X} He uh uh responded well during the interview. Like I thought he personally this is just my opinion I think he would have enjoyed doing it because again he started reminiscing and 412: #1 Uh-huh. # Interviewer: #2 and I think he got # fairly active. But I- I believe his family thought it might be a little bit too much {X} 412: Well he must be uh Sally we'd better go down and see him soon. Uh Robert said well he is oh nine He's about three years older than I am {C: tape distortion} seventy-four. Interviewer: Yeah I believe he's I believe that's what he did say cuz I did ask him 412: #1 Uh-huh. # Interviewer: #2 his age. # Matter of fact I know a {X} 412: {NW} Interviewer: Uh seventy-three. 412: Mm. But he'll be seventy-four before the end a' the year then. {C: tape distortion} See I'll be seventy-one in September and we're about three years apart. Interviewer: Okay. {C: tape distortion} Uh what's n- would you mind uh naming some of the streams that are off- uh or creeks in the community that you have around here? 412: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's no {C: tape distortion} You gonna write these down? Interviewer: No they'll be on tape. 412: I'll name 'em if you write 'em down. Interviewer: No no. I ain't gonna I don't wanna write 'em cuz they'll be on tape. 412: Well {C: creek name} for example. Interviewer: Ch- {C: tape silence} {C: creek name} 412: {C: creek names} Interviewer: Are these creeks or streams now? 412: Well some are small streams. Most of 'em are we call creeks and the {C: creek name} of course is a bunch a' what farther north they would call rivers. But uh we use the term creek much more often than uh I find in Tennessee or north Alabama for example. Uh then {NW} We've got over on this part a' the uh county in- in the upper part there are {C: river names} Big {X} Little {X} And the Chattahoochee of course. And then up in {NW} excuse me s- Chamber's county we've got a lot more. Interviewer: Uh-huh. 412: Indian names that I don't keep in my mind too well. I'm barely familiar with our own county creek. Interviewer: When uh uh 412: {C: creek name} I forgot that one. That's one of the biggest ones. Interviewer: {C: creek name}? 412: {C: creek name}. Interviewer: We- is there- is there any type of a k- a k- a k- uh qualitative difference or quantitative difference between the size of a body of water before you call it a stream or a creek? 412: Well Yeah. {X} I said to you a while ago I noticed long time ago that uh north of us they are inclined to call a lot of streams uh rivers. That wouldn't be any bigger than our {X} or the Saugahatchee. We we usually speak of uh small {NW} very small streams {X} just fed by a spring or two. This would likely be a branch as it started. A- as it was fed by more and more strea- uh branch uh {X} springs and uh uh tributaries it might become a creek. But we're inclined to speak of the larger streams without any designation like Chattahoochee or {C: stream name} or Saugahatchee or {C: stream names} Tennessee. Interviewer: I noticed on some a' the signs they'll say rivers. {X} 412: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: So there is sort of uh a difference between a creek a stream and a river in the sense 412: Yeah. Uh keeping in mind that uh uh m- many of the larger creeks as we use the name would be called rivers in a lot of n- places north of us. It's true of north Alabama I think. Interviewer: Okay uh if you had some bottom land uh that water uh was on- stood on for uh oh two three five months out of the year uh uh and you wanted to farm it what would you have to do to the water? 412: Well it would depend uh on the type of soil and on the type of sub-soil Uh we would likely uh drain it off in some way. Interviewer: W- how would you drain it? 412: Well we just might plow furrows or go in there with equipment heavy enough to open up some ditches to get the water running off. Draining off. Uh You might dynamite or blast out uh ditches to Interviewer: #1 {NS} # 412: #2 take it off if it's staying that long. # Interviewer: #1 {NS} # 412: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: {NS} If uh {NS} If you- if you had some uh rolling farmland and it rained hard for maybe three four five days and it started uh eroding a little bit 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 What do you # And it- and it- it caused a uh uh uh sort of a small valley maybe ten feet deep about ten feet 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 wide what would you # call that? 412: Gully. Interviewer: Gully? Okay. 412: You'd speak of the rain being a gully washer. Interviewer: Gully washer? 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Uh would you have any other names for that? 412: Well you'd you might put together the phrases gully washer and trash mover. Interviewer: Trash mover? 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Is- is that the same? 412: Well {NW} This means that you dig out gullies and you'd carry away with you all the loose trash of whatever sort there might have been on the surface. Interviewer: Oh. Oh I see. Okay. {NS} Uh {NS} Uh would you uh wh- what- what's a very st- designations that you might use to refer to uh uh you've already mentioned the word hill I believe uh when you're talking about land tax but what- what other designations might you refer to uh a rise of ha- of land like a s- a small hill? Do you refer to 412: #1 Well we might # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: use the word knoll. {NW} me my throat. {C: coughing} Interviewer: Okay. 412: {NW} I think I'm gonna have to get me something else and sip it. Uh Auxiliary: I'll get you something. {NS} 412: Yeah that might help honey. {NW} Uh {X} uh You might speak of a ridge. {NS} A ridge would imply uh moderately high uh spot of land but it would not be just uh a peak. It would stretch out for some distance. {NS} {NW} Uh Of course Eh if you went west and that's got nothing to do with- with us uh in the west of uh well the high plains you'd {NS} you'd speak of a s- an escarpment. {NS} Interviewer: Escarpment? 412: Yeah. E-S-C-A-R-P-M-E-N-T. {NS} Interviewer: Now isn't that more like a- a bluff area where 412: Yeah that's where it'd go right straight up. Uh that's what you do to get on the high plains and all. Auxiliary: Is- could that also be called uh uh something else? I mean uh 412: Well it could be called a bluff. Interviewer: Alright wh- what would be another w- uh word for uh like if you came to an edge of- of a very high plateau type and went straight down. Auxiliary: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 What- what would you call that? # 412: Well we'd s- sometime would call it cliff. Interviewer: Okay uh uh 412: {NW} Interviewer: What are also some of the other uh names? You may not have 'em in this county but what're all the- the other names that uh you can think of for land elevation? Topologically you know. Land 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 elevation. # 412: Yeah. {NW} Well y- y- you thinking about plateaus and Interviewer: Alright well anything 412: Knobs and Interviewer: Alright. {NS} 412: Hills. Interviewer: Mm. 412: Uh Let's see. I think I gave you most of the Interviewer: #1 Okay well # 412: #2 designations # that I can think of of the sloping or rolling land. Uh Interviewer: Well then uh the only other ones that uh that I can think of would be like uh oh like up around Chattanooga they got uh huge ones. {X} they call those what? Th- they're really big hills. 412: Well I- I guess you uh you're talking about plateaus or mountains? Interviewer: Mountains {X} 412: Plateaus on top a' the mountain. Interviewer: Alright. 412: {NW} Interviewer: Pronunciation item. 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Uh uh up- up in the mountains now uh where a road goes between uh uh uh the two hills 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 of a mountain # uh just a low- a low place that goes between and maybe a road would go through there uh uh would you have a name for that? 412: Oh yeah. That's where Sally and I nearly got killed with two other elderly people just ahead of us. Through Ocoee gorge in west Tennessee. No east Tennessee. Not west Tennessee. {NW} Interviewer: Okay. You call that a gorge? 412: Lord yeah. Interviewer: Okay. {C: laughing} Uh 412: Thank you hon. Interviewer: Alright. 412: You never have been through it? Interviewer: No I haven't. 412: Mm you oughta try it sometime. Interviewer: Well if you almost got killed there I don't know if I should. {C: laughing} {NS} 412: It's the biggest bunch a' damn fool truck drivers I've ever seen in my life. They haul chemicals. You see that big uh Sul- not sulfur a copper plant up at copper hill another one duck hill. No. Duck town. {NW} And they need enormous amounts of chemicals and those big trucks. They're all designated chemicals of course {X} But those drivers seem to think that they own the roads and the You should uh tip o- take off your hat or cap and tip to 'em and say yes sir go ahead. Biggest bunch a' fools I've ever seen and they- one or two of 'em really one behind the other they nearly killed Sal and me and uh this old couple about our age I think. Maybe a little older right ahead of us in another car. Interviewer: Did you go off the road? 412: No. We managed it. And to show you what a fool the lead one was {NW} uh as you come out of the gorge {NS} Uh {NS} Yeah I expect that may do me more good than this Sal. {NS} As you come out a' here right here. {NS} If I'm {X} {NS} {NW} Auxiliary: Would you like a cup a' coffee? Interviewer: Uh no ma'am. I'll take a glass a' water though. Auxiliary: Okay. Interviewer: If you don't mind. {NS} 412: Going eastward as you come out a' the gorge it's a long long mountain climb. Well these big trucks cannot make time on on those slopes upward. I never seen one yet. If they've got a load. {NS} So it's very easy to pass 'em. Well these fools {NS} had tried to just purely run over us coming down the hill you see and we were trying to observe uh the speed limits and this couple ahead of us were Actually the- much of that gorge it Interviewer: #1 Thank you very much. # 412: #2 I think uh # y- you simply can't drive safely even at the indicated top limit. But when you start on the up hill climb {NW} You can just leave those big trucks behind. And I'd already made up my mind that if I got a long drive I- I knew where the climb was and I made up my mind that if we caught up with him early enough I was gonna get ahead of him and go on and leave him. Well we passed him somewhere up the slope alright. I believe maybe he just about had gotten to the crest and was going over. Well we passed him and uh we were way ahead of him. Well that rascal it seemed to insult him so that we'd gotten ahead of him that he took out to pass us. And uh there were three There was another truck. Not as big a truck. It wasn't a chemical truck. Also down slope then as you come out a' the climb and start back down in the open country. {NW} Well I had of course pulled left coming over the uh uh brow a' the uh climb into the left lane. There was nobody coming towards us. And we uh we were soon approaching this second truck. Well that fool He seemed as I said to be so incensed that we had passed him and it looked there for oh a few seconds as if the fool would actually try to pass this other truck on his side and then try to knife through. And I didn't do a thing but just step on the car and uh got up to about eighty to get away from him. And I did. But that's the sort of men you've got to deal with and this has happened more than once but this was the worst case we ever had. Interviewer: W- Where was- where did that happen now? 412: It's uh in Ocoee gorge between uh Chattanooga and well the gorge doesn't reach to Murphy, North Carolina but uh these are two kind of tunnel points between Chattanooga and Murphy. Interviewer: Mm-hmm. 412: And you- I guess you'd go into the gorge about uh {NW} Fif- uh twenty miles or more east of Chattanooga I guess. And the gorge itself I think is uh twelve or thirteen miles and then this climb about a mile and a half or more. Interviewer: Okay. Uh {NW} Oh what do you call a place where large amounts a' wat- like like uh like Niagara where large a- amounts a' water come over uh oh uh a cliff or something? 412: Well we call 'em falls. Uh and then I guess we'd use some other designation. Let's see. What do we use sometime Uh Well I guess in my case uh I would apply the word falls to Robinson creek over here for example just as easily as I would to Niagara. Interviewer: Alright. 412: Uh Now a' course a n- number of our c- creeks in this area just like other big stream they have rapids uh below the falls. I- I reckon that uh falls would be what I'd usually use. Interviewer: Okay. 412: {X} Interviewer: And- and what do you call uh a place where uh uh large boats or boats in general uh Sometimes in- in the old days along these uh rivers they'd stop and unload freight. What do call those? 412: W- we'd usually call those docks. And if- if you have pleasure boats uh here in this area now we're using the term marina. Interviewer: #1 Marina. # 412: #2 {X} # Mm-hmm. M-A-R I-N-O. Interviewer: mm-hmm Okay. And and 412: Course uh uh uh and we would also use uh I guess this would be a general term We would say a boat was coming into Mobile port or into the port of Savannah. Uh into fort Lauderdale Florida for example. {NW} Interviewer: has a port right? Okay. What do you call a uh uh a- a little road that goes off the main road? You know like a 412: We'd usually say a side road or field road or maybe dirt road today uh. Uh Trail sometimes. We've got some road {NW} north of us now that were once public roads that have turned into trails almost though you can get in a Jeep and {NW} travel 'em. We wouldn't try it otherwise. Interviewer: Uh and- and What do you call a uh like when you come- some farms up way off the main road 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 or way off a # side road 412: Yeah. Interviewer: {X} What do you call the- the when you go to a man's house and he has his own road going up to his house? What do you call that uh 412: Well we'd call it usually a driveway unless it was a very long distance. If {NW} I don't believe I'd be inclined to call a man's entrance road a drive way if I- if I could see the house but it was a half mile away. I'd just probably call it the field road or the road to his house. Something like that. Interviewer: And if it was planted like with trees on both sides you know and you had to kind of go through it to get would you still call it a drive way? 412: We'd be inclined to call that a drive way. Interviewer: #1 Okay. # 412: #2 Yeah. # Interviewer: Uh And in- in towns uh uh the uh uh walk paths along side of the roads. What do you call those? 412: Well I guess you're talking about sidewalks. Interviewer: Okay. And uh uh they're usually made out of what? {NS} 412: Well most of 'em- most of 'em I've seen made out of cement. Interviewer: Okay. You ever see any roads made out a' that same material? 412: #1 Oh yeah. # Interviewer: #2 Around here? # 412: Sure. Interviewer: Do you have any special names for those? 412: Well we usually distinguish between uh asphalt and uh concrete roads. Interviewer: Okay. Ever refer to 'em as cement roads? {NS} 412: Uh I'd say yes. No I believe if you think about express ways uh we'd usually say concrete road. Or we might say paved roads. Interviewer: Mm. 412: {NW} Alabama {NW} uses a lot of asphalt. Georgia's been more inclined to spend a lot of uh capital in putting in uh concrete roads. Interviewer: Are they uh better roads in your estimation? 412: Well uh they last longer and course they- they maintain the evenness of the surface. Interviewer: #1 Do you get a lot a' ice down here on the roads? # 412: #2 {X} # Interviewer: #1 # 412: #2 # Occasionally. Interviewer: I know up north {X} a concrete road is uh is- is superior in some ways and inferior in others because well we get a lot a' snow and ice and uh water seeps down as it's if it hasn't frozen yet gets into the concrete. 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Freezes and as it freezes it {NW} expands and contracts and it chips huge chunks a' concrete out. 412: #1 Mm. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # We get every year you have to go around almost repave everything cause you get so many potholes. That's why the roads up north are always 412: #1 Mm-hmm. # Interviewer: #2 {X} down south. # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 {NS} # 412: Well now asphalt will do that same thing. Uh it'll freeze in spots apparently and then it then begins to break up in small chunks. Interviewer: Right. 412: But a- asphalt also is much more dangerous on the {NS} uh rainy or watery road than a concrete Interviewer: #1 It's slicker. # 412: #2 {X} # Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. 412: Down here we'll often have uh highway warning signs uh concrete slippery when wet {NW} or they may say of course say road slippery when wet. Interviewer: Okay. Uh if you're walking down a road or lane or whatever and a- and a dog jumped out at you you know and uh it looked like it was gonna come over and bite you. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Uh and you pick- reach down and you uh uh uh what would and y- you could see something that you could reach down and grab. What {NW} You know. A little stone or something. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: What mi- what might you do? What would you call that? What would you do in other words? 412: Well I'd probably throw at him uh my chunk at him. Interviewer: Okay. Chunk a' ro- a chunk a' 412: Or if you had found a stick you might flail at him or strike at him or hit at him. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Swing at him. Interviewer: Alright. How about now in reference to- to coffee now there's two ways you can drink coffee basically. Uh when you're- well not two ways. There's many ways. But uh uh there's uh uh just regular coffee. Now what- what do you call uh coffee uh that has nothing in it? Other than coffee? 412: {NW} I just call it coffee I think. Interviewer: Okay well there- you know like uh uh 412: Or straight coffee. Interviewer: Straight. Or- or is there any other terms that you've heard people talk about uh 412: Just plain coffee. Well they got nicknames for it. Interviewer: Alright. 412: Uh If I can even think of them now Uh If I can even think of them now Interviewer: Have- have you ever heard the term uh uh drinking your coffee barefoot? 412: No. Interviewer: Alright. 412: They talk about drinking it straight. Interviewer: Alright. Or uh or uh in reference to the color of it with uh 412: Yeah that- that is one a' the nicknames I trying to think of {C: background noise} There's another nickname too Sally. They use uh Course we say of uh New Orleans coffee the market street coffee that uh if it dissolves your spoon it's about right. Interviewer: {NW} That's quite- yeah that's pretty rich. {C: laughing} {NW} That's pretty {X} 412: {NW} {NS} Interviewer: I don't know if I'd want to drink that. {C: laughing} {NW} 412: Well I don't drink it much. Interviewer: Okay. Uh uh Alright and in this case uh still {C: background noise} like it uh 412: Uh with and {X} some without. Interviewer: Okay. {X} Uh 412: Uh when you say sugar but no milk or milk but no sugar for example. Interviewer: Alright. I- if a child is given the same name uh uh that her mother has okay you might say that the child was named blank her mother. 412: Mm. Interviewer: Fill in that blank. {NS} 412: Named for her mother if that's what you're getting at. Interviewer: Okay. Uh uh alright if a ch- and you would say that the child's named the same name as that of her mother you'd say that the child is named for her mother. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Yeah. {NS} Interviewer: You might not say anything like named after her mother or 412: Yeah yeah I've {C: background noise} heard that. I guess I'd use that. I believe I'd usually say named for the mother but I've certainly heard that other {C: background noise} Interviewer: Okay. 412: Many time. Interviewer: Alright now these are next questions here are mainly animal questions. 412: #1 Mm-hmm. # Interviewer: #2 Farm animals # and some domestic animals. Uh {C: background noise} different things. {X} What's the- what's the kind of animal that barks? 412: Well dog. Interviewer: Okay. 412: And a fox. Interviewer: Okay yeah. Right. Few others. Uh although they just got the 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 dog here you know. Farm animal. # Uh uh if you wanted your dog to attack another person or a dog- another animal 412: Sic him. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Go get him. Uh catch him. Depends on how you train him. Interviewer: Alright. And uh uh If- if- if- if the dog is a mixed breed what might you call it? 412: Well a lot of 'em are mongrels or worse. Interviewer: Okay are there any other names that you might think of for mongrels? 412: Well we call a lot of 'em round here strays. See we've got a lot a' wild dogs. Interviewer: You mean just uh they were once domestic and just {X} stray? 412: We've we've got a type of person. I'm sure you must have seen 'em {NW} known of 'em. Well we've got type of person here in this large university. {NS} They want a pet but when they leave school or they finish school they don't seem to make any bones about just taking this kitty or pup or the dog and just dropping it out say at a house two miles out of Auburn or one mile out of Auburn. Or they'll just drop it on the road side sometime. Interviewer: Hmm. 412: Peggy and the children and Prince are always taking in strays of that kind. And we get 'em down here. {NS} Interviewer: That's not too good for the animals. {NS} Uh Alright if- if a dog liked to bite you might say the boy was blank by the dog. 412: Bitten. Interviewer: Okay. {C: background noise} And uh uh uh uh if you're trying to caution the boy you say be careful. That dog might 412: bite you. Interviewer: Okay. And- and if he- if the dog has a history of biting people you say be careful. That dog has uh in the past 412: Well I think I'd simply say {NS} that dog has bitten {NS} {D: Joe street} so and so. Interviewer: Okay. Uh 412: Or that dog will bite. Interviewer: Alright. Uh uh In- in- in a herd of cattle what- what might you call the male? {C: background noise} 412: we usually call him just plain bull. Interviewer: Okay {C: background noise} Uh {NS} well uh {NS} Did was it polite- I mean did you 412: No you said the male. Interviewer: Alright but you wouldn't speak around uh women uh uh 412: about the bull. Interviewer: About the bull. 412: No. No. Interviewer: Uh would that go for other a- male animals too? 412: Uh well they didn't know much about uh horses and {NW} jennies and stallions and so so you wouldn't have expected to hear that as often anyway. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Much less uh you'd speak of the male cats as tom cats. And that's what they still say. Interviewer: But you wouldn't want to around your mother or around uh her friends or your sisters or anybody you wouldn't speak of a male animal or male uh uh {X} uh bovine 412: Sally I don't believe I ever heard 'em hesitate to use the term tom cat. I don't know whether you'd uh heard it that way or not. But they wouldn't usually speak of bull. {X} I think it'd be a little bit more inclined to speak of stallion because uh this would've been in horsey company you know anyway. Interviewer: Right. 412: And they never did hesitate to use times. Interviewer: Okay uh uh what- what kind of a uh uh animal uh that you can use to get milk from? 412: Mm well cow. {X} Interviewer: Okay. And uh earlier we talked about mu- mules. When you have two mules working a plow you- what do you call those? 412: Team. Interviewer: Alright. Or- or uh {NS} you might uh You ever heard uh span? Okay. {C: background noise} Span. 412: Oh span. That's usually was used with uh two horses hitched to a buggy. Interviewer: Oh. 412: They would {X} this in the old days when uh a man who had a span of horses and um flashy buggy he was uh he was a sport in town. Interviewer: Sport. 412: Yeah and Interviewer: #1 That'd be like # 412: #2 he # Interviewer: roughly like that now about like a young man with a sport car? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: #1 {X} # 412: #2 Yeah. Mm-hmm. # Interviewer: #1 # 412: #2 # Interviewer: That's interesting. How about uh oxen? Uh you know like uh I don't know if you've Did anyone ever have like a pair of or a team of oxen and uh would they have a name for them? 412: Yeah uh back in uh depression days and uh earlier when we did a lot a' logging with oxen we had plenty of them. I don't know what I ever heard uh anything but a team. I was trying to think of what to call 'em if they had four. They'd sometimes use four and six. I don't remember any special term applying to that many though. Interviewer: Okay. Uh how about the- the- the little uh {NW} remember the bovines {X} and when it's first born what do you call it? 412: You mean a calf? Interviewer: Yes sir. And uh If- if uh if you had a cow it's name was daisy and she was expecting a calf you might say daisy is going to 412: calve. Interviewer: Alright have you 412: #1 But # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: now if you were around the children you'd likely say- and see what did we say? I believe we'd usually say that uh daisy's {NW} going to have a little baby herself. Uh a little calf or something like that. Interviewer: Okay. Would there be any other terms that you might uh use that uh you may not use around women? 412: Uh Interviewer: #1 Or around {X} # 412: #2 Well of course uh # with a horse you'd speak of a mare foaling. Interviewer: Well how about uh you ever heard the term freshen? 412: Yeah sure well Interviewer: Any of those terms? 412: Yeah that- that was a family term. Interviewer: A family term? 412: Yeah. You'd speak that you'd have a cow to freshen. And uh I'll have such uh so much more milk then I can supply you with milk when the cow or when daisy freshens. Yeah I didn't even think about that. Interviewer: #1 Or how about uh # 412: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: uh another form of that would- you might say come fresh? 412: I never heard that. {X} Interviewer: How about spring? 412: Well we usually would use that term by saying that uh such and such a cow is springing. Interviewer: Uh yeah alright. Okay. And that means to have a calf? 412: Uh yeah that you know she will. Interviewer: Okay. 412: You can begin to detect it. Interviewer: You ever heard come in? 412: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Uh um uh What do you ca- well you talked about it. Stallion. Any other names for uh stallion that you might have used for male horse? 412: Oh among the men they talk about a stud. Stud horse. Interviewer: Okay and you wouldn't use that around women 412: #1 No. # Interviewer: #2 right? # At all? 412: No. Interviewer: Uh but you might use stallion around women. 412: I think more likely because I said to you awhile ago uh this would likely be more of a what we call a horsey company they- they you know the horse people are they're a breed apart themselves. Interviewer: {X} 412: And they're kinda stud horses themselves. men and women Interviewer: Okay well then they were they're- you mean they're- they might have been a little bit uh uh more 412: #1 Little bit more # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: racy we'd say. Uh Interviewer: Worldly? uh 412: Yeah. Interviewer: In that sense. 412: Yeah. I don't mean they were bad people. Interviewer: No I know {X} 412: Low character people is- is just uh way they looked at things. Interviewer: When you have to deal with it you know about it. 412: Yeah. Yeah. {NS} Interviewer: Uh 412: Now {X} I don't know. Maybe you're coming to this but uh {NW} You remind me a' one thing. There wasn't any hesitation in our circles to speak of rooster and hen. Interviewer: There was no hesitation at all? 412: No. Interviewer: Were there any uh terms that uh there was a hesitation to speak of in terms of a male roo- uh rooster uh in terms of 412: No I think that it had been worse- considered worse to say male chicken than to just say rooster. Interviewer: {X} Okay. Uh uh how about a female horse? 412: Well y- you spoke of as a mare though y- you used it rather sparingly if you were around uh Interviewer: Now that's one you'd use sparingly around uh women? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And if you have uh two or three uh mares and stallions together that's a group of what? 412: That's a group of horses. Interviewer: Okay. And uh uh if you saddled a horse and you uh got up on it and went- went to town you call that uh you're doing what with the horse? 412: Well now we'd just ride uh {NS} old Joe to town maybe. Interviewer: Okay. And if you did it yesterday you'd say you 412: Well I rode him to town yesterday. I rode up town yesterday. I rode down to town. Uh Interviewer: Okay. 412: Rode over to uh Bill Johnson's yesterday. Interviewer: Alright. And if a man's been at your house maybe an hour and someone else came in you'd say uh and- and the other man came in on a horse you'd say uh the man that's been at your house for a while came in on a horse 412: {X} Interviewer: might tell the new person say uh he has uh {NW} using the perfect form of ride. 412: You mean he- he has a riding horse? Interviewer: No he- uh say he's- alright say he rode over to your house and you're just talking. Somebody say he he has uh blank his horse this morning. 412: {NW} I'm not sure I understand what you Interviewer: Alright would you 412: #1 If you're # Interviewer: #2 ever say he # 412: speaking of the fact that he did come in that morning on his horse I'd say he rode over this morning. Interviewer: Okay would you ever say something like he has ridden? 412: Uh not in the sense he has ridden over today unless I said it about like this uh {NW} Joe uh Jack here has ridden over to spend the day with us. Interviewer: Okay. Alright Well I was just getting the perfect form 412: Yeah. Interviewer: of the verb right. 412: Yeah. {C: background noise} Interviewer: A- a- and a person was uh he got on his uh horse and he rode down the road a ways and his horse uh came across a rattle snake and rared up and he uh the person that was on the horse hit the ground you'd say he- what happened to him? {NS} 412: We'd say he fell off for one thing. Uh if he is injured we'd likely say he was thrown from his horse and such and such happened. Let's see if there's anything else I think of. Interviewer: If a person's injured when they fall off a horse do uh I mean the uh falling off a horse and not being injured you just say he fell off right? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: But if you fall off and you're injured you say that you were thrown? 412: Well I'm- I'd- I think I would be likely to say uh {NW} Jack was thrown from his horse and broke an arm or broke a knee joint or broke an ankle or something else. Or bruised himself. Interviewer: Mm. {NS} 412: Uh let's see. I'm trying to think if th- there are any phrases else would you Uh Well you might say the ordinary thing. Jack was injured yesterday J- or Jack's knee was injured yesterday when he was thrown from his horse. Interviewer: Okay. Uh now- now if a person was in bed and he rolled over too fast and misjudged how far from the middle of his bed he was hit the floor. What would you say he did there? 412: We'd say he fell off the bed. Interviewer: Fell off? Okay. Uh 412: Or rolled off the bed maybe. But I think we'd be more likely to say fell off the bed. Interviewer: Okay. And- and- and what are the things that you uh put on a horse's feet to protect him from the road? 412: Well we say {X} uh have them shod. Interviewer: Shod? 412: And they have horse shoes- uh have shoes on. Interviewer: Okay. Are there any special games that you play with those? {NS} 412: {NW} Well We'd play horseshoes {C: background noise} Interviewer: Okay. Any other names {X} that game that you know of? {NS} 412: I don't think of anything. Interviewer: Okay have you ever heard the term quo- uh quoits or quoits or {C: pronunciation second} 412: Quoits? Interviewer: Yeah. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Is that uh with horse shoes or is that something else {X} 412: I thought that was a different type of uh Interviewer: or {X} sometimes it might be referred to? Okay. 412: {X} I- I thought quoits were round uh well like a round let's see. What else do we use those horse- trying to think. {NS} Well {NW} I don't- I can't say offhand whether I {NW} would've would say they're pitched or- or or thrown. But I- I- I think clearly or definitely of quoits as being round flat pieces of uh metal Interviewer: Like 412: #1 that you # Interviewer: #2 uh # 412: pitched. Interviewer: To- to hit a stake that was sitting up? 412: No I don't- I don't remember them as being to hit a stake but to hit a circle is what I'm thinking about. I may be all confused. Interviewer: Well you may not be too {NW} Again it might uh {NW} there might be some cross reference later on with someone else. Uh How about uh Oh. Uh horse shoes are nailed onto a horse's 412: hoof. Interviewer: Alright. And- and the four of four of those are called 412: hooves. Interviewer: Okay. Uh and the male sheep is called a what? 412: Ram. Interviewer: Alright and di- Again now here is uh Did you ever have terms that you wouldn't use around uh uh or uh women here 412: #1 Uh # Interviewer: #2 or that you would use? # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 {NS} # 412: No. There's never been a question about using the word ram at least in our circles. {X} had sheep and he had a he had an old ram was a hell raiser. Uh {NW} He would get out in the pasture with a loud coat. There's nothing usual. Unusual. But he also had a a special stump he could step behind and he'd shake that loud piece of cloth or his coat. That old ram and then he'd get right straight in line between the ram and this stump. The old ram would always hit the stump and just bounce back. {C: laughing} Interviewer: {NW} He liked to butt {NW} the ram liked to butt a lot huh? 412: Well the- that's the way he fought. Interviewer: Uh-huh. {X} Did he have uh uh horn? 412: Uh I've forgotten now. He would cut off a lot a' the horn sometimes if I remember. Ordinarily {X} haven't come off you know a ram's horn kinda curls round and round. {NS} Interviewer: Okay. Wh- what's a female sheep called? 412: Ewe. Interviewer: Okay. And uh uh uh sheep have uh what on- that grows on their back? 412: Talking about wool? Interviewer: Yes sir. And uh how about a male hog? What's he called? 412: Boar. Now that's one you didn't use Interviewer: #1 Okay. # 412: #2 much. # Interviewer: Okay well 412: You'd say a male hog. Interviewer: Okay. Would you ever use anything else for uh {NS} 412: No I don't remember that we did. No. Interviewer: Okay uh uh what would you call a male uh uh hog that's been altered? 412: Uh Uh you just call him a well when they {C: laughing} cut me off Interviewer: {NW} 412: {X} Uh Good gracious. As many hogs as we've killed. Auxiliary: {X} 412: No. No no. {NS} {X} I can't even remember it now. Interviewer: Okay well I'll just go on. Maybe it- maybe you'll {X} Uh Uh 412: It'll be the same thing you've got down there. I'll be surprised. Interviewer: #1 Mm-hmm. # 412: #2 {D: Course uh} # Interviewer: #1 # 412: #2 # I never did hear but this one thing. Interviewer: It's like a wheel. 412: A wheel? Interviewer: Like the other word to begin with like that uh Does that make sense- like the- remember we were talking about uh uh {X} 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 that has one wheel on it. # 412: Yeah. Interviewer: And you uh carry a s- you mix cement in it. 412: Oh yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Is that the right term? 412: Yeah. This is a publicized term. If you were having a special sale there'd be certain prizes or special showings say uh uh such and such prizes for the barrows and such and such uh uh let's say for the best uh litter and then m- mother. Uh the sow. Interviewer: Okay. Would there- would there be any other terms besides barrow 412: #1 No that's the term I was thinking. Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 that you would say that that's the term- Okay. # 412: Now you'd spay the sow. Uh that wasn't uh well it just wasn't used often cuz uh they didn't do it much in our day but Interviewer: Try to get production. 412: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay and- and like a- a- a whole uh uh well full grown pig is called a what? 412: Well uh we go from pig to shoat and then to hog. Interviewer: Okay. When it was first born it was called a- it was called a pig? 412: Pig or baby pigs or something like that. Interviewer: Okay and then uh wh- what difference is there between a pig and a shoat? How big does it have to be to be a shoat? 412: Well I'd say around here uh after the uh litter had been weaned and they were on their own. And they were beginning to get I'd say anywhere from about uh {X} about seventy-five pound on. Interviewer: Seventy-fi- okay. Gotcha. Uh 412: Y- uh you wouldn't likely well here in this area today I suspect uh the term feeder pig I don't know what the minimum weight is. I believe it's uh sixty-f- maybe it's fifty or more. Seems to me it's sixty-five pounds and up. Interviewer: But it's above Yeah. I think. 412: And we say feeder pig. Shoat indicates an animal. It's uh getting a pretty good size. Interviewer: Okay. And uh uh what about the uh stiff hair on a- on a hog's back? What would you call those? 412: Uh just plain bristles. Interviewer: Alright. And the ivory things that come out of a hog's uh 412: Tusks. Interviewer: Alright. And you feed uh uh hogs in a uh a wooden What do you call that? 412: Well the old- the old one was trough. Interviewer: Okay. And if you had two or three uh of those you would ha- you'd say you have two or three 412: Well you would say troughs but {NS} we didn't feed 'em that way much. {NW} Interviewer: Okay. 412: They- I mean you'd- you never heard that term used much. Interviewer: What'd you use? 412: You didn't use. You'd just said you're feeding the hogs. {C: laughing} Interviewer: Okay. 412: {NW} Interviewer: How about uh 412: {NW} Interviewer: Uh do you have any names 412: Course we in modern times A- Alabama's been a pretty good n- hog state. Not like Illinois {X} {NS} And Georgia of course has been one of the top states in hog production. {NS} But uh {NS} in modern times we use the feeders widely. I wouldn't say every hog grazer's use feeders but I suspect most of 'em have if you checked up. Interviewer: Mm. 412: {X} feeders. They might just put corn in there or they might put corn and tankage in the Anyway if they were good producers they at least uh watch their uh feeders and if they thought they were eating too much tankage or too much corn they might ration the two. Interviewer: Mm. Now uh uh do you have any names for a hog that's grown up wild? 412: Well Well you- you hear {NS} uh times in Tennessee we don't have wild hogs much down here. {NS} they speak to you talk to you in uh Tennessee- east Tennessee they'll uh hunting the wild boar. They don't ever speak of the wild sow. I think those are Russian strain hogs. Interviewer: Russian strains? 412: Those that are uh loose in Tennessee. Interviewer: Oh. You mean someone brought 'em in and they just got loose? 412: Yeah they were imported. They seem to be more vicious and uh m- maybe more able to survive on their own. Interviewer: Mm. 412: Then uh well I'm sure that's truer than our modern hog. Course we used to have the razor backs too. Specially a little bit farther south of us in- down there in that Florida north Florida country. Razor backs or rattlesnakes and what else {X} gophers I reckon. Interviewer: Razor backs rattlesnakes and gophers. 412: Yeah. {C: laughing} Interviewer: And then gopher in that sense is a- is a uh is a uh turtle? 412: Well {NW} Yeah I believe so. Interviewer: Turtle. 412: It wouldn't have been the the animal gopher as I remember. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Up here it would be gopher but you never heard that least I wouldn't say up here. Uh {NW} Uh gophers up here would mean a s- type a' squirrel or chipmunk. Interviewer: Oh yeah. 412: We've got a few of 'em right across the road here preacher has some trouble with 'em. I had to learn that in my early days. Difference between a gopher in north Florida and up here. {C: laughing} {NW} Interviewer: Yeah when I- whenever I hear the term gopher I always mean I always mean the turtle. 412: Yeah yeah. Interviewer: But when I was up Illinois someone said a go- gopher they mean a groundhog. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. 412: Well now I- I our gopher up here is not the groundhog. He's uh he's one a' the chipmunks as I remember. He's a right pretty little rascal. Uh striped back. And not as long as a squirrel. Even a cat squirrel. Interviewer: What kind of squirrel have you got around here? 412: {D: I mean} pretty much fox squirrels and cat squirrels. We used to have flying squirrels but no more. I haven't seen a flying squirrel in goodness knows when. Interviewer: Do you have uh color different squirrels? You know the different kinda color squirrel like uh 412: Well the fox squirrel is a different color from uh the cat squirrel. Interviewer: What color is the cat squirrel? 412: Gray. Interviewer: #1 And the {X} # 412: #2 Saw one # You didn't see that one c- no he- uh he ran in front of me. One crossed the road in front a' me when we came back from the museum. Interviewer: Oh I see. 412: The cat- the- the fox squirrel you know is a rich brown. Uh Uh real pretty. Interviewer: Kinda reddish color? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: What are some a' the different kinds a' animals you got around here uh that you might 412: #1 Oh uh # Interviewer: #2 uh that are still here # or 412: Almost all of 'em except uh animals like wolverines and porcupine and course we only had those northern deer. Most a' the deer we have are the Virginia white tailed deer and there's some crosses in here. And then you got pretty much everything down from that uh Interviewer: You got any a' those animals that uh got the white stripes down the back {D: give off a} 412: #1 Oh yeah. {C: laughing} # Interviewer: #2 smell? # What do you call those? 412: Well we got uh two a' those uh one's a pole cat and let's see. What is the other one? Uh There's a difference in the striping. I can't tell you which is which and the- just plain old pole cats the one we used to have to fight. Uh What is uh what other name for that rascal? Auxiliary: Skunk? 412: Skunk. Yeah. And we would use the term more or less interchangeably. But they're two different species. Interviewer: There are? 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 {X} two. # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: You see {NW} We have 'em {NW} We- I- I- I said it to you this morning. We live in an entirely different era here all through this area from what it was when I was a boy. I used to try to trap a little and I couldn't. I was a poor trapper but I couldn't even catch uh any opossums in those days. Well goodness alive in uh {X} which is twenty-five and n- {X} years ago. He could catch a uh well he didn't wanna catch skunk but he could. And of course uh opossum which is a low fur but he could catch beaver he catch muskrat {NW} Uh Auxiliary: Mink. 412: Mink. Uh Auxiliary: Raccoon. 412: Yeah. Raccoon- raccoon. I don't believe we had any we've not had any weasels in here to my knowledge. Let's see. What else? Uh Well that'd be pretty much- well otters. He never trapped for otters but there are otters over here in the the southeastern part a' the county. Interviewer: Oh yeah. Well 412: And we just got beavers everywhere. Interviewer: Do you have that many beavers here? I didn't 412: #1 Ooh man # Interviewer: #2 really # 412: Uh uh the forest people they're raising up these days about the beaver. Interviewer: There getting to be too many of 'em? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Maybe they oughta try to uh export a few of 'em 412: #1 Let me see. Sally {X} # Interviewer: #2 cause there's some places that just have a shortage. # 412: Wasn't it in that sort of conservation meeting that they showed us this? Think it was. Auxiliary: Yeah uh-huh. 412: And I was trying to think the chief explanation they gave for the increase in beavers What did he say that Auxiliary: Well for one thing they put a ban on trapping 'em Interviewer: #1 Oh. # Auxiliary: #2 in one place # 412: #1 Yeah but # Auxiliary: #2 in Louisiana. # 412: uh he had some uh {NS} conservation explanation for the beavers. They'd kept 'em under control. {X} remember what it was. Interviewer: Mm. 412: Anyway. Interviewer: You got a lot a' forest here. 412: Huh? Interviewer: You got a lot a' forest and water here for one thing. 412: Well we had the water and forest before. Not as much as we've got now. Anyway uh we've got beavers. I'm not sure what the status of things is right now but {NS} Dale has had uh beavers right there in the low part a' the place in recent years. At one time it was getting to be a problem but I think they disappeared for a while and I- he hadn't even mentioned beavers on our property in recent I don't know what I'd we've talked about any beavers on the home place or his place adjoined for a good while. But they are- they are all over this country. And course you know how they build the dams Interviewer: Right. 412: and you know you can kill a forest uh just by one or two feet a' water depending on your species. {NS} And that's that's what a lot a' the forestry people are raising up about. Interviewer: I can understand that. And then I- well you know it's just up up- up north in a lot a' places the beaver has just become absolut- almost extinct. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: #1 And uh # 412: #2 Yeah. # Interviewer: they don't have the problem at all. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Right. It's surprising that you'd have a problem here with the beaver. 412: Well it- it's become a real problem. Now uncle Gus who was papa's second oldest brother he was a a great hunter. Uh he was not a sportsman. {NS} But he- he was a shrewd He woulda made a perfect trapper {C: mispronunciation; corrects himself next line} trapper in a in an area- in a uh land where uh game was {NW} profuse. But uh he told me years ago before his death. He was killed when a car jammed him up against his store. He was sitting in front of his store and car jumped the curb and {NS} pinned him right across here. {NS} Uh {C: background noise} turkeys disappeared down here. Well they used to feed right up to this uh uh drain uh uh g- gully uh right back of the church here. The water drains that way and goes on into large stream and into the Saugahatchee. {NS} And he told me that uh he'd been getting turkeys each year {NW} right across the road here right down that hollow. And in the summer- I think it was early summer of uh seventeen he discovered that uh this hen had raised a large brood a' {X} And he determined to catch 'em all. So he started by putting up a tight fence just on one side and he put corn down there and let 'em get used to that. Then he {NW} Then he put up a parallel fence uh what he considered about the right width. I don't know how wide it was. Then he threw corn all down inside the two parallel fences. And they got accustomed to that and not suspicious so then I don't know whether he put the top on next. He probably would have. Then he put on- I'll say he put on the top next. And he fed 'em a while. Then the next step I think was to close up the back end. I would guess he would have put the top on before he closed the back end anyway. That would have been the steps. Then I don't remember how he said he {NW} See he headed the thing facing {NW} The- down the flow a' the water so that they'd be coming up the woods towards uh- they used to have peas out there. And I- maybe he was growing the peas himself. And they love peas. Well anyway he kept on by stages and kept putting down corn and getting them lulled to the danger. And finally he got to the stage where they were coming into this uh trap and coming in through the door that he'd made for it. And his last step of course was to build his trap. {NS} for the door. And uh they would still come in regularly. Then he took a long string. I don't know whether he used a wire part out of what. And set his trigger to the trap so all he had to do was to head uh- hide up the in the pea patch with a long string and as soon as he saw the {NW} turkey hen lead a brood into this pen to get the corn he just pulled the trap and that's what he did. Just wiped out the last turkey in this area. Interviewer: Oh that was all of 'em? 412: That was the last one. He knew it was the last one. He was pretty sure it was. He said he never saw one after that. Interviewer: Hmm. Auxiliary: #1 {X} # Interviewer: #2 You say they're # starting to come out though. Auxiliary: He didn't feel bad about it did he? 412: No. He didn't have any scruples at all. It's {NW} one of the things I always held against {D: old Gus.} That's why I said to you he wasn't a sportsman at all. Interviewer: Mm. 412: We haven't got many sportsmen. Interviewer: People round here just like to 412: Uh well #1 we got # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: so many a' these uh uh college kids uh Give me something today and to heck with tomorrow. I don't think we got many sportsmen like Bill and Prince. {NS} Uh sometimes I wonder if he was a sportsman. Auxiliary: #1 {X} # 412: #2 {X} # I don't much think he is. Interviewer: Now who's that? Prince? 412: No. That's Bill's father in law. Auxiliary: {D: But} 412: But uh s- Bill and Prince are certainly sportsmen. And I think Buddy's one Sally. Auxiliary: Yeah. 412: This is a veterinary inspector. Bill and Buddy and Prince work closely together. Interviewer: Takes a lot a' control to be a sportsman. Auxiliary: That they are. 412: Well if they'll- if they were long headed- had any forward looking senses wouldn't be so hard to be a sportsman. But the- this other element reasons well if I don't get it today somebody else will. Interviewer: Uh 412: And the first thing you know is you hadn't got anything and nobody else either. Interviewer: Nobody'll get anything. Auxiliary: #1 Well I think # 412: #2 {X} # Auxiliary: that's why they just sorta go wild when they get in this area. There is a lotta 412: #1 game and # Auxiliary: #2 Yeah # they have come from areas where there wasn't and they just wanna kill without thinking. Interviewer: Well it's been my experience that there's- there's usually a lotta game uh anywhere you go as long as you're willing to let it live there. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: You know. 412: Yeah. The Indians never destroyed {NS} their stock. The game stock. But they didn't hunt for anything but to live uh for meat. They didn't hunt to kill. Interviewer: Right. Yeah I remember one time uh my uh granddad and I went hunting and he decided he wanted to do some coon hunting. Some raccoon hunting. And cuz there used to be that {X} #1 back then. # 412: #2 Mm-hmm. # Interviewer: I guess- do they do that around here very often? 412: Uh well uh you see {NW} deer and uh turkey hunting is so popular there that they're sorta looked down on if they hunt coon {C: laughing} Interviewer: #1 Oh I see. # 412: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: Well he just liked it for the sport. He 412: #1 Well it's a good sport. Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # And uh you know I didn't like it too much running all night long through the swamps 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # {NW} He enjoyed it. 412: Well it's good hunting. Uh My great grandfather was a great coon hunter. They said he kept record until he uh had notched three hundred and eighty-four. And uh He- he wouldn't hesitate to go hunting by himself. But he always carried his dogs on- so he could put 'em on a leash. And he always carried a sharp ax. And he- if the tree was there and the coon was in the tree Interviewer: Yeah. 412: He'd cut it down. {C: laughing} Interviewer: #1 Well # 412: #2 Uh # Interviewer: One thing I- one thing I like about coon- coon hunting myself is that uh you you can- a coon will give you a good fight if you catch him. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: #1 If you're not # 412: #2 Yeah. # Interviewer: careful he can tear your dog apart. 412: Yeah. Have you heard Jerry Clower and his coon hunt? Interviewer: No. Uh 412: You oughta take time {D: enough} before you leave to listen to that thing. Interviewer: #1 Alright # 412: #2 It's # it's a classic. Interviewer: #1 Alright. # 412: #2 You don't # know Jerry Clower do you? Interviewer: I don't think so. 412: Well Jerry and I are kin to the same folks. A lotta the same folks. I don't think he's any kin to me. But at least two of 'em my family married Clower's and all trace right back here to Auburn. Jerry's a ranch man on the Mississippi, the other men too. He's not a great comedian. Uh he started out selling fertilizer. Uh but he- he can tell things in a way that {NW} it just sets you roaring. Interviewer: Yeah. Kind of uh- well is it kinda country humor? 412: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: I guess I better get back and ask you these. Uh uh If you had a pig and you didn't want him to grow up to be a boar what would you do to him? 412: Castrate him. Interviewer: Any other special terms you might use away from uh 412: Yeah. We- uh Let me see. Uh I have heard- this is not quite the way they said it but I've heard- heard 'em say well we gonna take his manhood. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Uh and I've- I've heard some other terms but nothing occurs to me right quick. {NW} No. They'd a- sometimes say well we gonna make a gentleman of him. And let me see if I can think of anything else. No. I don't- I don't think of anything else right now. Interviewer: Okay. How about the noise made by a calf when it's being weaned? 412: You mean if- if it's away from its mama? Interviewer: Yeah. What- what kinda noise it makes? 412: Well we'd say {D: bleated} Interviewer: {D: bleated} Okay. And uh what about the noise that uh a cow makes about feeding time? A gentle cow noise. 412: Uh Well you mean satisfaction or uh sort of a plaintive Interviewer: Well no just a- well 412: Lowing? Interviewer: #1 Yeah. Gentle # 412: #2 {X} # Interviewer: gentle noise. 412: #1 Yeah. Yeah. We'd say lowing. # Interviewer: #2 Not- nothing uh nothing hostile. # Okay. Uh And- and how about a gentle noise that a horse might make? 412: Well usually we'd say whinny. Interviewer: Uh a- a- a- 412: Or knicker. Interviewer: Knicker? Okay. You ever heard uh winker? 412: No. Winker? Interviewer: Winker? 412: No. Interviewer: Okay. I'm just wondering cuz that's one I got down south {X} 412: Sure enough. Winker. Interviewer: Yeah. 412: Well that- now that shows you how much difference there is uh And I- by the way you remind me of something I was telling Dale about the types you were looking for and particularly this older group. {NW} And I told him that I had told you I didn't think we could find anybody like that except pappy down here Who has I told you eighteen but it's twenty children {D: Bill said} And I- then I said to Bill you might go {X} go and {C: beep} and then Bill said well he can find uh somebody like that down in that section. And he told me one man. I forget his name. And it is true that uh all a' that south eastern section is a is somewhat different from this area a' the county just like these hill people in Tallapoosa county. Those red hills that were run after from closing of lake Martin in uh twenty-seven I think it was. Are quite different from from this area. Interviewer: Mm. A lot of it has to do with the type of family that 412: #1 I think so. Think so. # Interviewer: #2 settled there. You know the influence and everything. # 412: Yeah. Interviewer: You know I think uh I may be back in the fall. Or not in the fall but uh {NW} late summer and do some more work in this area because uh there is uh a lot a' difference between uh 412: #1 Yeah. Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 south and here. I might even # come back and finish up all these different 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: piece interviews {X} 412: Let me get- excuse me. {NW} When you through now I'm gonna give you a tip and uh just something you can put in back of your head. Interviewer: Okay. {NW} 412: #1 Uh # Interviewer: #2 Okay. # 412: One a' the striking things to me and I being an Auburn man I can be somewhat biased though I get along pretty well with the good Alabama people {NW} uh {NW} There has for the th- the last thirty or forty years I'd say thirty years but I've gotten to learn enough to have some judgment about the basic thing There is a striking difference to me between the people who live around Auburn university and the people who live around Tuscaloosa. Uh Just a few miles out of Tuscaloosa they have some real lawless elements. And some real backward elements. Now I can blame all of it on the nearness to the coal mine. You kn- course the coal miners uh they were well I guess it took a rough sort to survive in the mines in the early days. And that's I'm sure uh been perpetuated over generations. Course uh coal mining started in the early days and Jefferson county I think had its first settlers of any consequence about eighteen seventeen. And it's said that they had been mining coal somewhere and other ever since they got in there. Well they're still a rough sort. A lot of 'em. I don't mean they're bad people. It's just- again it's just a a different attitude toward life. Interviewer: {X} Uh what about law and order? They got 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 {X}? # 412: No they got the other sort. Interviewer: {X} 412: They've had uh Interviewer: Do you have that around here? I mean you've got a fairly good 412: No. Well {NW} There's lawlessness everywhere now. Uh we just have a lotta trouble with college boys and some college girls. We've been having all sorts a' trouble with the negroes. Uh and I think I've got the answer to the negro problem. And we're not going to get any better or any improvement there until we get a different attitude among federal judges. I think some of us who {NS} had felt like we were well I know that I got cussed and abused and everything else for uh trying to take up for the negroes over the years. And at one time uh there was an arm a' the government trying to prove that I was a communist. They sent agents in here. We know they went down on the farm snooping around and then I found they'd been snooping around in Birmingham. But goodness alive uh today uh with all the asininities a' the federal judiciary and so many of our uh federal uh state judges superior not superior. District court judge I think they're obliged to just make decisions on the basis of what William or Douglas or someone else said. Uh Uh I think I'm- I'm worse than the conservatives in there- in that I did try to be forward looking in those years gone by. Just uh the other day this was a Sally this is six weeks ago. I think this is just before we left on that trip. Wasn't it? When Sarah came up here? We've got a We've got a water authority here. We've got about fourteen hundred customers now. Whites. Blacks. All sorts. Trailer people. Home people. Well we've got a uh a negro family down the road here {NW} Their mother worked for mama a number of years and I've known this Sarah Wood nearly about all her life ever since she was half grown. Her reputation was that uh all of her children were illegitimate. She has a husband. I don't know whether it's common law {X} wood. But that's beside the point. She couldn't- never has been able to get along with our water manager. Water authority man. And I think there's some fault on both sides.