579: It's on that card there. It's hard to spell it. interviewer: mm-hmm How do you pronounce it? {B} {B} John John {B} 579: John-O mm-hmm interviewer: and your address? {B} and the county? 579: Warren W-A-R-R-E-N Warren County interviewer: and state? 579: Mississippi, born and reared here. interviewer: Right here in Vicksburg? and your age? 579: Eighty-seven, as we used to say when we were children, going on eighty-eight because in three months, the Lord willing, I'll be eighty-eight. interviewer: mm-hmm um tell me about the work you've done. 579: One year in the Delta Trust and Banking Company interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and fifty-eight years in the Merchants National Bank. interviewer: Did you help to start this bank? 579: No, it was organized in eighteen eighty-six the year I was born. interviewer: uh-huh Do you still have a position here? 579: No, I retired in uh nineteen sixty-four. interviewer: uh-huh What position did you hold? 579: Vice president and trust officer. interviewer: And what church do you go to? 579: First Presbyterian a block up the street incidentally. interviewer: And tell me about your education, the names of the schools you went to and, 579: Unfortunately Vicksburg did not have a high school when I finished the public school. It was about ten grades I should say. interviewer: What was the name of the school? 579: Warren Street School. interviewer: uh-huh You went through the tenth grade there? 579: I finished there but then I did not provide a sufficient uh high school education or public school education to- at a college. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: So I went to preparatory schools for two years. interviewer: What were the names of those schools? 579: One was Chamberlain C-H-A-M-B-E-R-L now how did the spell it L-A-I-N interviewer: uh-huh 579: hyphen Hunter Academy interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Port Gibson, Mississippi. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Then one year at D-I-X-O-N Dixon Academy. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Covington, Louisiana. interviewer: uh-huh 579: Then two years at Centre C-E-N-T-R-E College. Danville, Kentucky. Old school, eighteen nineteen and that was all. interviewer: mm-hmm um You mentioned you had done some traveling. 579: Yes, I've traveled all over the United States except those two states and uh interviewer: Which two states? 579: Florida and Hawaii. and I went to Europe let's see uh four times and to England only one time. interviewer: uh-huh 579: to Bermuda one time to Canada mostly the Canadian Rockies five times. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: That's about it. interviewer: That's quite a lot of traveling. 579: I loved it all too. interviewer: How did you get to do so much traveling? {NS} 579: Well it's because I never married and had a wife and children to support. {NW} That's really at the bottom of it besides which I loved it. interviewer: uh-huh um Tell me um you've been pretty active in this community I suppose. What 579: Oh yes I've been secretary of this, treasurer of that, chairman of this ever since I was about eighteen years old, say about nineteen. No, a little older than that about nineteen-five. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: And I've been chairman of the board of trustees at the YMCA or a director for fifty years. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: And uh Oh at one time or another I've been on the boards of the Red Cross, the Boy Scouts, what else, let's see, I've been an {X} in in pres- pres- Presbyterian Church for sixty-two years. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: {NW} I've been treasurer of the {D: Senastor Lab for} fifty-six years. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: That's most of it. interviewer: Uh-huh Tell me something about your parents. Where they were your parents where they were born and, 579: My father came here from South Carolina. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Well, my grandfather did about eighteen fifty-two and well Father was a boy came along with him at the time. Yeah and uh Mother's family were local people lived out in the county her her mother was {B} interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and uh her father came down the river from Mansfield or Manchester, Ohio about nineteen I mean eighteen, eighteen, let's see, eighteen fifty-one. Something like that, don't know exactly. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: I often wonder what his uh position, his status was during the Civil War interviewer: uh-huh 579: because anybody who lived North of the of the Mason-Dixon line was to us a Yankee. interviewer: uh-huh 579: but evidently, he was avowedly a supporter of the Confederate cause because I found a document headed {NS} Caught Amnesty and Pardon A-M-N-E-S-T-Y Amnesty and Pardon. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Signed by Andrew Johnson, President of the United States setting forth that he was granted amnesty as a citizen of the Confederate States and uh he was pardoned for it. I often wonder what- how he felt about his his status here interviewer: mm-hmm 579: because on my mother's side they'd been in around {D: yonder} Warren County for many years. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and I thought maybe he would uh be in uh a delicate position. He couldn't side against the uh Confederacy interviewer: mm-hmm 579: because he'd been living here some time and he was in love with one of them but anyway he was recorded as a Southerner and as a rebel and he received an amnesty and pardon from the President of the United States. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Now, Grandfather {B} had lived in Charleston and Aiken, South Carolina for a long time so there wasn't any question about it on which side he belonged. interviewer: Was where was your father born, was he born in Charleston? 579: He was born in Charleston. eighteen forty-nine interviewer: mm-hmm Is that where your grandfather was born? Charleston? 579: I don't know. Somewhere in South Carolina, may have been in Aiken A-I-K-E-N. He was a superintendent of a railroad up there. interviewer: Your grandfather was? 579: Grandfather {B} yes. And evidently his men liked him because when he left they presented him with a picture and cup engraved and also a two foot folding rule- ruler um marked with the inches on one side and meters on the other mounted in gem and silver and engraved to show that it was given to him by the men of the railroad in eighteen fifty-two. interviewer: Do you still have that? 579: Hmm interviewer: Do you have that? 579: I gave that to my nephew in Natchez. He'll be here longer than I will so I gave it to him. interviewer: um How much education did your parents have? 579: There's a little story to that. Mother I guess schools were rather uh uh There were many {X} around here about that time She was born in eighteen fifty-two. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: My mother and her cousin went to a girls' school, they probably called it a seminary in those days, in New Orleans. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and in eighteen seventy-six they were ready to come home. My grandfather- I'm going too fast for you. interviewer: No it's okay, go ahead. 579: was in a sort of wholesale grocery business and he shipped quite a bit of freight by the uh anchor line, that was uh uh the best boats were anchor liners. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: And when the girls were ready to come home in June, eighteen seventy-six, that's not right, seventy, seventy-six was the year of the cut off. eighteen seventy. Mother was eighteen. Her cousin I imagine was about the same age, I don't know, but anyway, my father went down to bring them home and he persuaded the Captain of the Robert E. Lee to bring him and the girls home to Vicksburg during the famous race. So they were hustled off with that dorm's tough trunks You know interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and all the way and won the race. interviewer: So you think your mother had about a college education. or 579: I doubt it I think it was a interviewer: Preparatory school? education 579: It was just a girl's school, I don't think it was as high as a college education. Many of them interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 579: #2 had # just no more than a boarding school education in those days. There weren't too many colleges that were near by. They were in New England and way up in Virginia and what not and travel was difficult in those days. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: So not many of them had a college educations as far back as eighteen seventy. interviewer: mm-hmm What about your father? 579: Don't know. {NW} They lived in South Carolina and now let me see, eighteen not sure about the year, I think they moved here about eighteen fifty-two. interviewer: mm-hmm Your father had at least a high school education though? 579: Don't know a thing about it. I think he did though. interviewer: He could read and write anyway. 579: Oh certainly yes, held pretty many books. interviewer: uh-huh What work did your parents do? 579: What? interviewer: What work did they do? 579: My father sold eagle cotton gins interviewer: mm-hmm 579: made at Bridgeport, Massachusetts and parts for them. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Also uh {X} {B} on my mother's side had acquired three plantations in what we call the Delta the flat land up in the country North of us here when you get past our hills interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and he looked after those plantations. interviewer: Your father did? 579: Yes. interviewer: Three plantations? 579: Well two a good size one was rather small. There wasn't much overseeing necessary for that it was rented out. interviewer: Um What about your mother? Did she ever work outside? 579: No. To the best of my knowledge she was born in Warren county and I know she never worked. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Never heard of it. interviewer: What um tell me some more about your mother's grandparents- your mother's parents. um You said your grandfather came down from Manchester, Ohio. 579: Manchester, Mansfield, I never have been sure. interviewer: uh-huh You figure that's where he was born? 579: {X} interviewer: You figure that's where he was born? 579: Just presumably, I don't know. We've never been able to find out much about them {B} side of the house. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: He probably came down the river on a a boat that just floated with the current a good many uh people did come down that way some men loaded the boats with merchandise and they would stop at this landing and that and lay over and sell some of that interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and then when they got as far as Natchez which is about eighty-four miles South that was they would dispose of the boat, sell it most likely. and Have you ever heard of the Natchez Trace? interviewer: I've heard of it. I'm not sure what it is. 579: huh? interviewer: What is it? I- 579: A road that was built through the wilderness from Natchez to Nashville. And it wasn't safe to travel on it because a good many brigands who held people up and robbed them. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: But uh it has become a national road now. One of the prettiest drives in this state paved grass and weeds cut. Just a beautiful drive all the way from Natchez up to uh oh about uh let me see uh Kosciusko, named after the Polish patriot. K-O-S-C-I-U-S-K-O They left the z out of it when they named this one. K-O-S-C-I-U-S-K-O Kosciusko. and it's been further from there Northward to- toward Nashville. Uh the- ther- there wa- there is an old inn that was restored down not very far from Natchez off on one side of the road. Very crude accommodations such a thing as uh you know spring mattresses and running water and uh air conditioning, so forth hadn't been dreamed of. interviewer: {NW} 579: there are one or two of those inns two or three of those inns on the way between Nashville and Natchez interviewer: mm-hmm um What sort of work did your grandfather do? 579: My grandfather {B} was in the railroad business, superintendent. interviewer: mm-hmm What about your mother's father? 579: He was the one who came down from Ohio. interviewer: What sort of work did he do? 579: He had a uh general merchandise store aimed particularly at furnishing the needs of people on plantations within a reasonable distance of Vicksburg. They had many negro tenants and they had to have all the things they needed clothing and shoes and food and what not. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Of course in the early days, they were slaves. Now I hope the Lord'll forgive people in the South for owning slaves. That was monstrous inhumane, barbarous, I just hope the Lord'll forgive us for owning them my ancestors I mean. That, that was outrageous. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: You know what that makes me think of? Visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. Sometimes I think that all this negro trouble we have is some of that. Visiting the iniquities. Cause that was a monstrous thing, goodness. interviewer: Um How much education do you think your your grandfather um the one that ran, ran the store how much education do you think he had? 579: I have no idea what education either grandfather had. interviewer: uh-uh 579: Never learned a thing about it. interviewer: What about your grandmother? Do you know where she was born or? 579: On my father's side, She was born somewhere in South Carolina when, I don't know. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Don't know what education she had. interviewer: What about on your mother's #1 side? # 579: #2 On # my mother's side well there were very few educational facilities in existence then because my mother was born in eighteen fifty-two and say go back uh thirty years from that, eighteen twenty-two, or nobody knows, interviewer: {NS} 579: now living. interviewer: Do you know where your grandmother was born? 579: I think in Warren County. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Not certain. interviewer: Do you know much about tracing your ancestry back um beyond well several generations? Do you know what, what country they came from or anything like that? Or ha- have they been in the United Sates for long? 579: No very little. I have a distant cousin who is a member of the faculty of {NS} that college at Williamsburg. interviewer: William and- no it's not 579: Oh, I know it uh. {NW} {NW} {X} On July the fourth I was picked up o- off the floor in my apartment having lost a great deal of blood and I find myself groping for names ever since. I spent three months in the hospital and two months in nursing homes. interviewer: Mm 579: It just did something to me um uh um uh William and Mary! Old, old college. He has some information on my mother's side of the house. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: His name is Warner W-A-R-N-E-R {B} interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Now the {B} came from England. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: One of them was a director in the Bank of England in the sixteen hundreds. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Whether related to us I don't know might've been. interviewer: What about on your mother's side? 579: I know very little. I think they lived most of their lives right here in Warren County. interviewer: mm-hmm um you say you- you never married? 579: No never married. interviewer: Tell me something about What this- um what Vicksburg is like. How- how much it's changed um the most, what different types of people live here, that sort of thing. 579: Good gracious. Well it's changed alright, in many ways for the better. Being on the river and on a highway that goes from East to West from uh Georgia to Texas it has grown. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: And many suburbs have sprung up. There's streets that I encounter every now and then I don't have the faintest idea where they are. There has- don't want to go too fast for you- interviewer: No, go ahead. 579: There's always been a substantial negro population here. interviewer: Would you say fifty percent? or? 579: Not quite I think. If I've ever seen any figures on it I don't remember them. But certainly thirty-five to forty percent I'd estimate. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: It's largely been an agricultural community here. Cotton mostly. #1 Uh # interviewer: #2 Because of the # the Delta the Delta being around it? 579: {NW} This is you might say the end of the Delta. interviewer: uh-huh 579: And that what is now called the Delta is not really the Delta that's way down there below New Orleans. Waters- rivers spread- land spreads out flapping streams in different channels of the river and all that but {NW} what we call a- the Delta is from here to Memphis. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: The hills are nearly all on the East side of the railroad and highway. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and we've had some terrible times with floods. Good gracious alive. Of course, building levies made a great deal of difference. It just protected millions of acres of land from being overflowed every year. interviewer: Mm-hmm 579: Not just once in a while but every year. The government keeps those levies up, although in a few sections there are levy districts. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and I'm not sure about this but I think that the districts get considerable financial help from the U.S. government. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Because after all that river drains what {D: three other} states I guess. And it's not a local problem interviewer: uh-huh um The types of people that there were um I guess well I've looked around and seen some of these houses, you know these, beautiful old houses. um Did the war in Vicksburg, there- was there sort of a- an Aristocratic class or what- what different social classes were there and how would you- you say your family fit in? 579: There's always been a good element here composed of educated people, church-goers, interviewer: mm-hmm 579: uh good business men, professional men, and we've had some foreign element, mostly Lebanese. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: uh Let' see uh Syrians interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Italians Jews a few Irish and a few Chinese. On the whole our citizen- citizenry I guess we'd say has been a high class one. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Our folks have always believed in giving good educations to their children and it's uh I say the exception rather than the rule that a boy or girl who finishes high school goes doesn't go to college interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Most of them go and they go to good colleges too. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Now, mine was a small college but they have graduated some very distinguished men. and uh some have gone to Yale, Harvard, Princeton University of Virginia a great many of course to Mississippi colleges. interviewer: mm-hmm Is your family one of the older families of Vicksburg? or 579: Yes, it is. interviewer: Your mother's- on your mother's side mainly or? 579: Yes, they were here before my father's side came in. interviewer: mm-hmm Were there a lot of plantation owners back um fifty years ago? Did they still have large plantations? like they- 579: Not quite as many because in a good many cases the original owners died and the large plantations were cut up into smaller ones. interviewer: mm-hmm Do many people living in Vicksburg now still own land in the Delta? 579: Still what? interviewer: Still own land in the Delta? #1 Do they still # 579: #2 Not as # many as sixty years ago. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Oh older than- farther back than that really but there still are some. However, managing a plantation from eighty miles away, a hundred miles away is not a wise thing to do You've got to be right there with it. So mostly the plantations are now owned by people who live on them or nearby interviewer: mm-hmm um I'd like to just uh I'd like to get an- an idea of the house that you grew up in. {X} Did you move around very much when you were young? 579: No, thank the Lord. Our house is right across the street here, diagonally opposite. interviewer: uh-huh 579: Ten room house, air cured, hard cypress, and long leaf pine the like of which couldn't be bought or thirty years later. It was just a fine temper that did grew in those days and it wasn't used so fast that lower grade lumber went into buildings. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: It was a ten room house and finished in eighteen eighty-six. I'm not sure about this but I have a recollection of seeing a paid bill of the builders showing that the contract price was forty five hundred dollars. Well, that was uh before the business district contracted on this neighborhood. It gradually contracted on it and uh when I saw I acquired the uh ownership by buying the interests of my brothers- I had four brothers. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and uh meantime well the main business street is only two blocks down the street here. {B} ask and on uh Crawford and South and Veto and Monroe and Cherry all, around us mercantile businesses were moving in. Well, I knew I was not going to have a really difficult time selling a house when I decided to move to an apartment. So, I just put an ad in the paper and I got three very acceptable bids and took the best one. And uh moved to the apartment about three blocks away. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: I didn't want you to come there because I'm such a poor house keeper I didn't want you to see it. interviewer: #1 {NW} # 579: #2 {NW} # interviewer: um I'd like to get an idea of the um what that house looked like. Do you think you could make a sketch of the floor plan? 579: Now, let's see. interviewer: Just the floor plan, you know. 579: North. South Street. Well, this is really a boulevarded street now. Monroe Street. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Now, the house had- getting this to scale's gonna be difficult- there was a little offset there. Here, that extends where only one room is. Then, the front room had a bay window. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and there's a story connected with the kitchen in this house. My grandfather- mother's folks lived in a house just behind it that's now swallowed up in that big cinder building over there. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Just built all around it and the kitchen was out in the yard as it is at Mount Vernon interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and {X} and other old time houses so as to keep the odor of food out of the house. Well, I- in our house- this was added on later- the bedroom sans a door porch and now, let's see, yeah that's- this house was added- the room there was added on. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: This was the the front room and this was the dining room. Oh, I'm leaving out the hall. Go ahead, I haven't come far enough. Yea, that's about it. There was a door there. And that's a door there and that's a door there and above is a small room here and a pretty large room here and well, there was a porch beginning here porch came over to this part. Porch. Well, when they- when my mother and father wanted to build a house they bought the lot from grandmother {B} interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and she said now that the kitchen must be out in the yard so that you won't have the odor of food in the house well, my mother said 'Well, mother people have changed their minds about that now. Different attitude. It's too much trouble to have the kitchen out in the yard and bring food through all sorts of weather.' interviewer: mm-hmm 579: 'Well then it must be at the end of the porch and no connection no door between that and the house.' So that's the way it was. So all the food was brought - {NW} brought along this porch into the dining room. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: It wasn't too bad but it was pretty unhandy. Roughly that's it. interviewer: mm-hmm Let me try to label these rooms here. This was the kitchen here? 579: The kitchen would've been interviewer: No You had it facing this way. 579: That's North. The kitchen would've been about along here. and and no door between that and the rest of the house. interviewer: This- this was the kitchen here? 579: Yes interviewer: uh-huh Seeing and this well, could- could you just mark- mark off the label. 579: Now let's see, this is the dining room. This is a hall. Oh, I've moved that up too far No, that's right. That's right Uh living room interviewer: Did you used to call that the front room? 579: huh? interviewer: Did you used to call that the front room? 579: Upstairs we did but not downstairs. Used to call this the sitting room really, sitting room. That's where that offset was, yeah the dining room. Well there was a an- a little room in here called the pantry. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Hall interviewer: Is this a wall here? 579: This is a hall here. And this is a- I skipped a room, now, let's see, dining room, dining room Well, this is really the dining room. Although that offset window was in it, I remember that. I'm not very good at drawing plans, I see. Well anyway, that gives you a general idea. Well, that's North. interviewer: mm-hmm What- What was this room here the- the porch? 579: Well, there was a a long hall. Yeah, that's the hall long hall. and this the stairs went up- {NW} I made a mess of this plan- the stairs went up from the lower floor to the second. Really in that offset, that's where it was. interviewer: mm-hmm. Which- what about this room here? 579: That was a bedroom that was added on, well, I haven't got it right though. That was a bit later on when one of us married. One of the others, that is. interviewer: mm-hmm What about the- the upstairs? 579: The what? interviewer: The upstairs. 579: The what? interviewer: Upstairs. 579: #1 Upstairs. # interviewer: #2 Is that the-? # Could you sort of make a sketch of that? 579: Second floor, now, let's see. Big rooms, high ceilings. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Porch. Bedroom. Bath and storage. Porch. Bedroom. What we call a bay window. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Bedroom. Then, that's right, the porch ended at that hall- the hall ended at that porch. And on this side, let's see, the porch came out about there. On this side That represents a door. Bedroom. Porch. Porch here. {NW} That's not much good at that. interviewer: Well, that's fine. Pretty large house. 579: Ten rooms. And such material, my goodness. The termites wouldn't- they just didn't like that good cypress; they wouldn't eat it. interviewer: {NW} um You know you, you mentioned a porch. Do you remember different names for porches? 579: One other: gallery. interviewer: Did that- what- what did gallery mean? Just any kind of porch? 579: It's really not a porch interviewer: uh-uh 579: But everybody had a gallery, not a porch. interviewer: #1 OK # 579: #2 {NW} # That is most people did. interviewer: uh-huh um Did you have a fireplace? 579: In every room. That was the only way of heating them. interviewer: uh-huh 579: Later on, we discontinued many of the fire places and put in gas heaters. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and also now let's see, about uh see the lower floor, hall, dining room, hall somewhere about in there uh. That's an F. U-R-N-A-C-E interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Furnace, right? Under a partition between a room and a hall. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: but mostly every room had its fire place That was all there was back in eighteen eighty-six. interviewer: {NW} 579: One closet in the house. About that deep. interviewer: Mm-hmm 579: Old wardrobes sitting around everywhere interviewer: What was a wardrobe? What was a wardrobe? 579: Well some of them call them armoires, armoires (C: pronunciation} and well, that was it, the armoires (C: pronunciation} which is not the exact term, or wardrobes. They- some of them were single and most of them were double. Two doors to the double ones, one door to the single ones. {X} That's where people put the clothes. interviewer: You could hang your clothes up in it? 579: Oh, it had a shelf up at the top for hats and what have you and hangers for clothing and provided the moths didn't get it- get in there, it worked pretty well. interviewer: {NW} 579: Incidentally, I was forced {X} sold the contents of that house. One old fellow in Natchez bought six of those old wardrobes that I thought I'd have a hard time selling. He bought six of them! interviewer: {NW} 579: I don't know what he did with it- he- he handled- he was a dealer in antique furniture. Natchez is a hot bed of that, good gracious. You can get some- You can still get some superb antiques down there now. interviewer: uh-huh 579: I had already sold them all when I heard he died last year. interviewer: um Tell me about the fireplace the part that the smoke goes up through. 579: Chimneys went up through the roof and the fire- the chimneys had what were called flues F-L-U-E-S interviewer: mm-hmm 579: One flue took care of the downstairs fireplace, another flue took care of the upstairs fire place. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: We burned coal which was pretty cheap and left the powdery residue of ashes. We always had kindling on hand to start fires and old newspapers. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: You crumpled up an old newspaper and put some kindling on top of that and a coal on top of that. Made a great deal of work for the servers. interviewer: mm-hmm um What do you call that uh part on the floor in front of the fireplace? 579: The hearth H-E-A-R-T-H. It was generally paved with some kind of tile. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Uh usually glazed tile. Also, sometimes around the fireplace would be something of the same material a frame. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: I suppose that was a measure of fireproofing. interviewer: mm-hmm What about um the part above the fireplace you could set things on? 579: Yeah they always had a large mirror there. interviewer: uh-huh 579: And some shelves along the side and on top interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Small shelves. interviewer: But that long shelf that went across do you remember what the was called? 579: Oh it was mostly put vases and ornaments on. interviewer: uh-huh 579: In a few cases the narrow sections alongside each end of the mirror had small shelves and little things would be put there too. interviewer: mm-hmm Did you ever call that shelf a fireboard or a mantelpiece? 579: Fireboard? interviewer: Or mantelpiece? 579: Oh there was a mantelpiece, always a mantelpiece. interviewer: uh-huh 579: Some of them iron, cast iron. The older ones. interviewer: Iron? 579: Uh-huh interviewer: I never saw one of those. 579: Thank goodness they were safer too. Not so likely to catch fire. interviewer: Huh um What about the um things you'd set- have in the fireplace to lay your wood across? 579: They had grates G-R-A- G-R-A-T-E-S interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Some of them are rather smaller which meant that you had to constantly add fuel to the fire. Some of them were pretty large, they didn't take so much tending. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and uh many fireplaces had uh mesh frames around to prevent living coal from flying out and setting a- burning a hole in the interviewer: mm-hmm 579: carpet. interviewer: Did you ever see something long though, um sort of, I don't know exactly how it'd- it would be but something kind of long; it'd go back. Like that and you'd- you'd need two of these and and you could lay the wood across. 579: They were called andirons. interviewer: uh-huh 579: They were entirely for wood fireplaces. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: You can still see a great many of them around here- in the old ones I mean. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: A few older ones and newer ones just laid across this andiron. It left room underneath for a draft to go throu- through and give it a good burning. interviewer: mm-hmm Did you ever hear an old fashioned or- or a more common name for andirons? Did you ever hear it called anything besides andirons? 579: Don't recall it, no. interviewer: Firedogs or dog irons? Did you ever hear that? 579: I guess they were but I don't I don't recall that ever- In fact, I doubt if they called them andirons, I don't know what they called them. interviewer: #1 {NW} # 579: #2 {NW} # Been a long time ago. interviewer: Uh-huh um You know if you build a fire a- a wood fire now um you might take a big piece of wood and set that sort of toward the back of the fire place and maybe it would burn all night long. 579: mm-hmm I'm sure {X} interviewer: Do you remember what- what that was called? 579: Uh they called that the backlog. interviewer: mm-kay What about the black stuff that forms in the chimney? 579: Oh my goodness It just poured out after the air and settled on the roof some of it interviewer: uh-huh 579: and on the lawn. And my goodness I remember one time a lot of swallows came down the chimney of my mother's bedroom; there was no fire in it. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: {X} that is lined with soot and all those countless wings beating like that a large fan-shaped deposit of soot stretched out all the way from the fireplace five feet into the room. interviewer: Gosh. 579: I remember what a time we had getting that mass of soot up. interviewer: {NW} um Tell me something about, um, well, tell me about furniture in a house, um, the thing that I'm sitting in now, you'd call that a? You'd call this thing a? 579: They really didn't have that exact type. Much of it was made of walnut which is now quite scarce. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Might pretty wood, too. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Most of it was made of walnut and not so much oak as you see now. More oak now because uh the walnut trees were attacked by some sort of worm or insect or something and there just isn't as much walnut as there used to be, which is also true of chestnuts. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: If che- if the chestnut trees were ever used for furniture I do not remember. But I remember nearly all furniture, including wardrobes interviewer: mm-hmm 579: was walnut interviewer: mm-hmm What different um furniture did you have in- in your living room? 579: We'd have rocking chairs and perhaps a big reclining chair with a footstool. Mostly, that's it. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: The dining table was often walnut and the chairs walnut. interviewer: mm-hmm What about something longer um longer piece of furniture that two or three people could sit on. 579: Sofas, oh I was about to forget the sofas. Oh yes, we had those. interviewer: uh-huh 579: but some of them were made of rosewood. They're better fur- pieces of furniture- more expensive and you still see some of them. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: People who are taking care of them had them reupholstered, and a great many of them are still in existence and in use. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: But they had to be reupholstered two or three times maybe. interviewer: mm-hmm Were there different names for sofas or- or something similar to a sofa- or? 579: Now let's see, settee. interviewer: uh-huh What was that like? 579: Mostly, just a different name for a- a porch- uh- uh- for a sofa. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and sometimes there'd be what they call a lounge. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: It had no arms, no back, it sloped up somewhat at one end and a person stretched out on it, that was {X} somewhat in the nature of a pull. interviewer: mm-hmm um What did you have besides um you had the wardrobe now for hanging your clothes up then. What would you have just with drawers in it that you would have to fold your clothes up and put it in? 579: You had- what did they call them? a freshwood chiffonier. C-H-I-F-F O-N I-E-R interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Or I can't think of the other name. They were not often called chests or drawers in the old days, that was a that was a later expression but that's what they were. interviewer: mm-hmm Did you ever hear them called bureau? 579: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Well bureau. Yes that's right, I forgot about the bureaus, yes. They generally had a mirror on top. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Uh, dressing tables for women were not really made in the old days; they came in later. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Specially, those with one mirror and two wings that could be changed. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: They were later. Well, some of them were called dressers but mostly they were chiffoniers. interviewer: mm-hmm Did that have the mirror to it? 579: The uh what we now call chests or drawers did not have mirrors. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: They had more drawers from top to bottom than some of the others did. interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 579: #2 but no mirror # interviewer: Is that what you used to call chiffonier? 579: Not exactly because some of the chiffoniers uh were didn't have quite as many drawers and had room for a little mirror on top. interviewer: mm-hmm um and then something on um rollers that you can pull down keeping a window pulled down to keep out the light? 579: They were treated cloth. They- we called them shades. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and my goodness they gave us much trouble. Something would- the ratchet would get out of place and you'd hear a whirring sound and all that interior spring, they'd go, and their raising and lowering would be loose. And you'd have to find some way of tightening that up again and the little ratchet on the other side was inside. You had to hold that back while you were winding that spring up again and then put the ratchet in place to hold it after you got it there. interviewer: uh-huh 579: Oh, I've done that many a time. interviewer: {NW} um You mentioned um uh the roof of the house what- what would you call those things along the edge of the roof to carry the water off? 579: Valleys. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: They were in the nature of a trough interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and down-spouts carried them down to the ground and also to cisterns. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: In our yard, we had an old cistern there. and up to the time I sold the house and a bulldozer filled in the system it was in good order. A remarkably good job of brick-laying shaped like a jug. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and uh I remember my father used to shut off the downspouts during the summer provided there was enough water in the system. We had no running water in the house. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and then in the winter when there was much rain after there'd been enough rain to wash the soot and dust off the house, the roof that is- interviewer: mm-hmm 579: the valve would be open and the water would go into the system. And when the system was full, the valve would be turned the other way and the water would go out into the street. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: And oddly enough we drank that water for years on end and nobody had typhoid fever. Why? Just good luck I think. interviewer: mm-hmm Was uh this valley- was it built in on the roof like that 579: Built in, mm-hmm. It was shaped like a a square with uh one side- one- with the top out. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: Say about it was pretty wide, on our house they were about that wide. interviewer: About eight or nine inches? 579: About nine inches. And the sides sloped a little bit. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: And the downspouts which were large, about five inches in diameter interviewer: mm-hmm 579: brought the water down from the valleys to either the street or the cistern interviewer: mm-hmm What about when you have a house in an L? You know that low place where they come together? 579: mm-hmm Well, {D: the tinners were pretty skillful about that, they just} sawed it in a corner there and- and gave it to proper grade so it would run off. interviewer: Well, what- what did you call that? That low place? 579: It had no special name Just- just part of the valleys- one of the valleys. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and Our house had a tin roof on it and it must have been a high grade of tin because it was heavy too, thick metal. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: We didn't have to renew that roof for about let's see, eighteen eighty-six, nineteen forty years I'd estimate. Then it began to have some leaks in it. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and had to put another roof over it. interviewer: um You know, some houses had a little room up at the top of the house. 579: You can see some of them around here now. What good they were, I don't know. interviewer: Well um not really a a regular room just a small 579: #1 mm-hmm # interviewer: #2 sort of # room you could store things up there, something. What would you call a place like that? 579: We called the part under the roof where there were no rooms, the attic. interviewer: mm-hmm 579: and were they hot in the summertime! particularly if you had a tin roof. Good gracious! There was a house a little over a block round the street it has one of those little top rooms on it. They are generally similar to what they call the widow's lookouts in Massachusetts. {X} interviewer: Widow's lookout? 579: The widow- the widow's lookout, interviewer: uh-huh 579: or widow's something. interviewer: huh 579: So many men lost their lives at sea interviewer: uh-huh