Interviewer 2:  We can do that but I would like to uh try to get uh let me go on for a while but please make note of anything you don't understand or why did he do that and Marvin will answer any questions you have and I'll try to keep quiet uh so uh That'll be uh That'll be cool. {NS} {B}
Interviewer:  #1 {NS} #
185:  #2 {X} #
Interviewer:  Are you a student at Emory?
185:  Mm-hmm
Interviewer:  #1 How how far along are you? #
185:  #2 I'm a senior at the college and I'm a history major #
Interviewer:  #1 {NS} #
185:  #2 #
Interviewer:  Where'd you say you were from?
185:  I'm from Ocilla, Georgia. It's down in south Georgia about two hundred miles south of here. down around well we're eighteen miles east of Tifton
Interviewer:  What county is that in?
185:  It's Irwin county.
Interviewer:  Is that where you were born?
185:  #1 Yes. #
185:  #2 {NS} #
185:  #1 Yes. #
185:  #2 {NS} #
Interviewer:  Born right there in town in {D: El Sol}
185:  Yeah in {D: El Sol}
Interviewer:  {NW} {NS} How old are you now?
185:  I'm twenty-one. {NS} {NS}
Interviewer:  So are you started school here at Emory when you were about
185:  When I was eighteen.
Interviewer:  Thank you. What made you choose Emory?
185:  Um I wanted to go somewhere in Georgia And It was a choice between here in Georgia And I'm not really fond of the University of Georgia
Interviewer:  Why?
185:  Um I just never have liked it. {NW}
Interviewer:  Just a #1 gut reaction about Georgia #
185:  #2 Yeah, just just a gut reaction # I I don't like Georgia football.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  I'm a Georgia Tech fan
Interviewer:  Oh
185:  And um So
Interviewer:  Why didn't you go to Tech?
185:  Why didn't I go to Tech? Cause I don't want to be an engineer.
Interviewer:  Talking about that's all you can do if you go to Tech.
185:  Well basically.
Interviewer:  {X}
185:  And um {NS} So I decided to go to Emory plus my brother was here. And he enjoyed it and I've been wanting to go to Emory for a long time. For many many years.
Interviewer:  When when will you graduate?
185:  Um June June of seventy-eight
Interviewer:  You mentioned your brother, how old is he?
185:  He's Twenty-four And he's in med school there
Interviewer:  Well have you had any other uh brothers er?
185:  No. No we're the only two.
Interviewer:  The only two.
185:  The only two children, yes.
Interviewer:  Well what about uh you're you're a full-time student there.
185:  Yeah {NW} #1 And- #
Interviewer:  #2 And- Go ahead #
185:  Well I work during the summers at home. I work for a lawyer there. Um I'm sort of his gopher
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
185:  And uh It's a fun job I do some research um run a lot of errands
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  Answer the phone, type
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  Basically whatever needs to be done I take out a lot of trash
Interviewer:  Yeah {NW} Well uh You mentioned your majoring in history.
185:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Now is that in preparation for uh
185:  For law school
Interviewer:  For law school. And you want to go to law school?
185:  Well I don't know where I'll be applying here at Emory Georgia, Mercer, and some out of state places. But sort of a case of where I'll where I get in {NS}
Interviewer:  Well uh Well only particular reason I'm asking you know there there seems to be such a flood of uh lawyers graduating now so less appealing, you know sort of making some people {D: rethink things}
185:  Well It's It's something I've always wanted to do. {NS} And That's basically the reason And You can do a lot with law besides besides practice. You can use it to go to business and real estate {NS} You can use it for a lot of for a lot of different things you can use it for government service in many cases
Interviewer:  Any one of those in favor that you had in mind?
185:  Um Probably practice So
Interviewer:  There's kind of uh
185:  Yeah
Interviewer:  There's an equivalent an equivalent to GP and law You know to uh
185:  Well you well you get your basic {D: J Data Group} which is basically the equivalent of a G-P. in that it's a And um you need to have some concentrations something that is that you've been really interested in in Law School that you developed some some {NS} greater depth in.
Interviewer:  You could make a killing if you went into uh handling the bulletin cases and Uh I think all the lawyer kind of depends on that kind of thing #1 And uh considering, maybe we're #
185:  #2 Yeah. Yeah but # If you get There's money in divorce #1 There's no there's no doubt about it. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
185:  But um It's been It gets real nasty it gets real nasty
Interviewer:  Before we go {D: off to the cabinet} the real real enigma in the corporate law is that true?
185:  Mm-hmm {NS} It is because practically everything the corporation does has to have a lawyer.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  Anytime you have a bond issue stock issue um Numerous reports have to be filed with the government. um And they have just so much business going on that they need to have a lawyer so that they can go through tax purposes, tax advantages, gains, losses {NS}
Interviewer:  What's, do you have any idea about what um uh The uh {X} of school {D: logging} at Emory is it fairly prestigious? or
185:  In Well It's very prestigious in Georgia um As far as out of state, I'm not sure. It's sort of a middle rank school. There are a lot that are better than Emory there are a lot that are worse than Emory. It's sort of middle rank
Interviewer:  Do you want to stay here in this part of the country and go to law school?
185:  I don't know.
Interviewer:  Not sure?
185:  I'm not sure.
Interviewer:  Have you already sent out applications?
185:  Well I have applications sitting in the room to be sent out.
Interviewer:  Yeah What are some of the schools?
185:  Some of the schools Um Well Georgia, Emory, Mercer, Vanderbilt, Duke um I've gotten one from Chicago, from Cornell From Yale, from Harvard I'm just looking at a lot of them.
Interviewer:  Have you ever Have you pretty much stayed in this part of the country or
185:  Well as far as lived with um I've always lived in Ocilla I've done some traveling, I've been to Canada um {NS} Been To Virginia New Orleans Florida Out to Kentucky Basically in the south, the southeast but {NS}
Interviewer:  Those states you mentioned, Virginia and Florida Kentucky Are these are are those the only other southern states you've been in?
185:  No we've been North Carolina, Tennessee, South Carolina Alabama Mississippi {NS} Louisiana
Interviewer:  Was it mostly um vacation or {NS}
185:  Yeah mostly vacations.
Interviewer:  Any one particular area that uh you prefer?
185:  Well Uh I like New Orleans It's fine.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  #1 Very very warm in the summer #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
185:  But it's a great place to be #1 And- #
Interviewer:  #2 And- go ahead #
185:  And um Virginia's nice. {NS} Moving up to Williamsburg and Richmond And Williamsburg Was very That was a lot of fun. And I'd like to go back to Richmond, do the battle Battle field rounds
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. {X} Uh {X} Did you spend much time in French quarter?
185:  Yeah That's where we stayed. It was in the French quarter.
Interviewer:  Oh you stayed in
185:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah Yeah I had always had this uh this {NS} uh {NS} uh impression that the French quarter was a real small place.
185:  It's bigger.
Interviewer:  Yeah #1 {NW} #
185:  #2 It's real big. #
Interviewer:  It goes like there for a dozen blocks square Something like that {NS}
185:  They've done a lot down there recently They have cleaned up the French market And Better lighting, a lot more security and policemen down there So it it's not as rough as it was
Interviewer:  There are some
185:  #1 There are no well there are #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
185:  #1 yeah yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
185:  There's still some real sleazy sections down there That it isn't safe to go in daytime or night
Interviewer:  Yeah I was uh I was coming back this summer cause I'm in town recruiting a lot with a friend of mine took me to the French quarter and we went to this we were going to this black uh this uh black restaurant, I guess it was kind of kind of a nation restaurant bar lounge kind of thing it had been you might have seen it if you watch NBC Saturday Night They got a little uh film clip of it But um {X} a little funky place, you know? {NW} But yeah, neither one of us liked the place Oh What about uh Let's see You have you have a memory from a particular church?
185:  Well I'm a member of the Methodist Church. I don't go. But My name's still on the role
Interviewer:  Yeah Might be an occasional Methodist
185:  Yeah Yeah I go I go just enough to know that I don't don't particularly care for it.
Interviewer:  Mm. {NS} Any particular reason for uh you know
185:  #1 For why I don't go? #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah, yeah. #
185:  I don't like the minister.
Interviewer:  Oh that would #1 {X} #
185:  #2 He's a jerk #
Interviewer:  {NW} Is he boring or is he just uh
185:  Um Well The um well I stopped going We we don't have the one we had when I stopped going The one that we had when I stopped going was an old army chaplain
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  And he was one of the numerical right or wrong, love it or leave it type
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  And um Went to church one Sunday And It was to the point where We had got We had got home, my parents and I And the minute we got out of the church We'd start arguing about what a jerk he was how awful he was and went to church one Sunday and he made some some very unkind and uncalled for remarks about George McGovern whom we'd all supported for President And so Rather than get up and walk out then and there, which is what I felt like doing, I just didn't go back.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  And I haven't been back.
Interviewer:  So he's down {D: at that end of the world}
185:  Yeah
Interviewer:  #1 On the right or #
185:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #1 sort of #
185:  #2 #
Interviewer:  Is he really outrageous or is he
185:  Yeah Yeah He's um He's vicious There's no There's no other way to say it except that he's vicious.
Interviewer:  Mm. {X} I had a pastor in my church was nothing like {D: that exists} #1 He believed {X} #
185:  #2 Well that too #
Interviewer:  Always when I went in the sanctuary to pick out a nice big column to sit behind {X} What about uh uh Schools, your schooling #1 Did you go to school there in Ocilla? #
185:  #2 Yeah I went # I went to public school there um elementary, junior high, and high school and the elementary school was about two blocks from where I lived and the junior high and high school were was about three blocks So that I didn't didn't ride the bus
Interviewer:  Mention what What is your address there {X} ?
185:  Um {B} {B}
Interviewer:  South Apple?
185:  Apple. A-P-P-L-E.
Interviewer:  What's the What's the zip in Ocilla?
185:  three one seven seven four
Interviewer:  Did that uh elementary school have a particular name or
185:  It was um I think it was It was probably I don't know
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
185:  #2 Well see #
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
185:  #2 what happened was # Is that In sixty-four we integrated.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  And We still had separate but equal When I started so that there was the black elementary school and the white elementary school.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  And then in sixty-four, we integrated. And We still had the blacks' elementary school And the now-integrated white elementary school. And this continued until I think Fall of seventy when Supreme Court or H-E-W or one of the others said that you've got to abandon dual school systems or you lose all your federal aid.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  So that from seventy Fall of seventy there was probably It's probably known as Irwin County Elementary but I'm not sure. We always referred to it as Ocilla Elementary because that's what it was known as when the um city had a separate school system from the county.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. That's it. Well What uh #1 What grades did that elementary school #
185:  #2 Elementary school was one through six. #
Interviewer:  One through six.
185:  It was built and the school was as
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  Old, old school, it was built back in the 30s by the C-C-C and the W-P-A Part of Roosevelt's New Deal.
Interviewer:  Yeah
185:  And {NS} my father went to high school then, used to be the high school And then when the city and the county merged their school systems {NS}, it became the elementary school
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  had big tall ceilings large windows oak floors they had to oil to keep um keep the dust down.
Interviewer:  {NW} Pretty bad.
185:  Yeah. It's it- it was a fun school. But uh
Interviewer:  Mm. #1 But what about the junior high school? You know? #
185:  #2 The junior high school and high school # um were combined. They were built back in back in the early early to mid fifties so they're brick and concrete block construction and um junior high was grades seven and eight And then high school was nine through twelve.
Interviewer:  Mm. Did that have a less, you know, particular name?
185:  Yeah, um The high school has always been known as Irwin County High.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  And I think the junior high was Irwin County Junior High. Even though At the s- E-even though up to seventy you had um A separate high school the black school, which was Ocilla High Industrial.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. You mentioned C-C-C a minute ago, what is that?
185:  That's the Civilian Conservation Corp. And the W-P-A is the Works Progress Administration. They were part of Roosevelt's New Deal.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
185:  The W-P-A also built the community house in Ocilla back in thirty-eight
Interviewer:  The community house?
185:  Yeah it's um it's where Irwin Community Center It was for whites only and still is largely for whites only.
Interviewer:  They get away with that?
185:  Well They get away with it real well now because um {NS} in the past few years have gotten a lot of federal aid Um but the county's about sixty percent white, forty percent black {NS} and they get a lot of federal aid because of the blacks and um they built a neighborhood center over in the black section of town
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
185:  so that the blacks go to that and the whites use the um {NS} use the community house. And they kept the swimming pool open over in the white section {NS} of town {NS} long enough to get money to build swimming pool over in the black section of town. So the blacks use the pool at the neighborhood center. And the whites either use the country club pool or they don't go, I suppose.
Interviewer:  Mm. Let's see. Well when when integration was being implemented, how did that uh go over in Ocilla? Was there
185:  It went over fairly well um {NS} there was a private academy starting in sixty-four, segregation academy, although they're uh they they'd be highly incensed to have the {D: fort} It was bad.
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  And um But that's all it is, is a segregation academy um it's out in Mystic which is um six miles from Ocilla.
Interviewer:  #1 Eh Mystic? #
185:  #2 Mystic #
Interviewer:  #1 That's a great name {NS} #
185:  #2 Y-yeah # It's um a little unincorporated town on the road on the road to Ashburn on thirty-two Georgia thirty-two And um The school board sold them an old abandoned school it was old Irwin County High before the city and the county consolidated and they built a new school in Ocilla.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  I think they sold them the old school which is a big big building with a lunch room and an old gym for something like a dollar. So that um {NS}
Interviewer:  {X}?
185:  Yeah #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
185:  Real big deal So that you know while the school board's acting very pious like oh yes we've got to integrate and you all can stay in school, they were also keeping all their keeping their bases covered.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. So you didn't have any any serious uh
185:  No there was no um In sixty-four the elementary school I was in integrated with all of one black. And he was in my class.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  And the first day of school, we all knew that he was gonna be in our class. First day at school the teacher sent Allen, that was the black guy, up to the principal's office
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  and on some phony errand
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  and um while he was gone she gave us a very stern lecture that integration was something that none of us wanted that no one looked forward to it that we would would be much better off if they could stay over in the black section of town
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  But that It's something that we had to live with and that we were going to accept him cause she was going to make sure that we did. And it really worked out real well. We we played with him he was one of our friends. It worked out real well. We had we had no serious problem, we had no serious problems with racial trouble. I think one of the reasons is is that um athletics is very very {D: tough} football, baseball, basketball and for years I guess up until about sixty-eight or sixty-nine maybe even seventy, there were very few blacks on on any of the teams. But when We finally had to do away And had to abolish the separate black school and we changed coaches about that same time and the new coach was very interested and and agreed to allow blacks on the teams and so that they've done very well in sports {NS} And um people have accepted it for that reason
Interviewer:  I see. So What about uh when you were in in high school were your in in any uh particular clubs or uh organizations or anything like that?
185:  Yeah I was in four H Um I was in the band three years Um I was in thespian society Um The beta club which is sort of a which is sort of like a National Honors Society {NS}
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  And um {D: High line} which is run by the YMCA of Georgia.
Interviewer:  Mm. What about here at Emory?
185:  And here at Emory Um I work for {D: Wheel} {NS}
Interviewer:  And the wheel is?
185:  Is a school {D: inspection.} {NS} {NS} And also I'm in {NS} {NW} Alpha Epsilon Epsilon Yeah Which is the lower division honors society And in Pi Alpha Theta which is the history honors society.
Interviewer:  Mm. {X} Um I was in when they were {NS} I don't know {X} we remembered the name only is that the same sort of thing?
185:  Well four H wasn't four H was was ver- was a lot of fun, I was very active in that. I had a pecan production project And um went to district competition several well from fifth grade through twelfth. Won there several times Went to state competition three times in one there my senior year.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  So I had I had a real good time in 4H and we got a lot done. It was real good, a real good club. Um Beta club, we just basically met and um inducted new members, that sort of thing, just what like kept everything going.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  Thespians We did a little more than that. But not not too much more and that's about all we did in high line.
Interviewer:  Mm. You said you were majoring in history at Emory and then high school, was that your uh why didn't you go into history {X} #1 was it uh #
185:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  carried over from high school?
185:  Well sor- yeah sort of carried over from high school although in high school I took a lot of a lot of science and math
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
185:  And as well as doing {NS} taking history courses during social science projects. And um I felt I felt more comfortable with history and it's what I wanted to do.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  Chemistry was fun but not to the extent that I wanted I wanted to do anything in chemistry or biology
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
185:  Or any of the other sciences.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Do you remember what grade you were in when you took uh chemistry?
185:  I was in tenth grade, I believe. No, eleventh. Eleventh.
Interviewer:  Have any high school physics or?
185:  Yeah I had a quarter of physics senior year that was um sort of taught in a very forward-looking manner. It was independent study physics because the teacher couldn't teach the course
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  So um We did all the labs ourselves, paced ourselves
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  um took the tests everyone did real well, I think all of us came out with an A.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  But As far as learning anything You know, I'm certain we did but {NS} we did finish the course and that got him off the hook and us off the hook.
Interviewer:  Mm. What about your mathematics work?
185:  Math had Algebra one in ninth grade year of Geometry Algebra two junior my junior year. Then senior year I had um
Interviewer:  Junior, that's which grade?
185:  Eleventh grade. Twelfth grade has trig fall quarter and then two quarters, winter and spring quarter twelfth grade had um Basically Algebra three.
Interviewer:  Mm. Right then. Well well what about uh uh your uh your pa- your folks, whe-where're they from? Where was your father born?
185:  Um Daddy was born in {D: Rayport} which is in Lanier county and {NS} is about forty miles south of Ocilla. My mother was born up in Ben Hill county at Ashton
Interviewer:  #1 What was the name of that again? #
185:  #2 Ben Hill #
Interviewer:  #1 Could you spell that for me? #
185:  #2 B-E-N # space H-I-L-L. Named after Benjamin Hill. Um She was born there in Ashton which is not really a town, it's sort of a community north east of Fitzgerald which is the county seat of Ben Hill county.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  Um her parents were school teachers and that's where they were teaching the year she was born.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. {NS} Any idea how how old your father is?
185:  Yeah, my father will be sixty-one in April.
Interviewer:  And your mother
185:  And my mother will be fifty-four in April.
Interviewer:  {NS} What does your father do for a living?
185:  My father works for the post office he's a rural mail carrier.
Interviewer:  And your mother?
185:  And my mother is a college librarian. Right now she's working on a P-H-D. She's finishing up comps this week.
Interviewer:  Where is that?
185:  She's at Where does she teach or where is she getting her doc- where's she doing her work?
Interviewer:  You can tell me both.
185:  Okay. She um She works at Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College A-BAC (C: pronounced A-Bac} in Tifton. And she's doing her graduate work at Florida State in Tallahassee. {NW} {NW}
Interviewer:  So uh Where where did she get her uh undergrad?
185:  She did her undergraduate work at um Georgia State College for Women which is now Georgia College and is in Milledgeville and she got a Master's degree in library science Florida State {NW} {NS}
Interviewer:  What about your father?
185:  My father graduated from high school in Ocilla {NS} {NS}
Interviewer:  What about uh are your grandparents uh still living?
185:  Um three of them are. Both of my mother's parents and my father's mother is living.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  And They're all in their eighties. My mother's parents, my maternal grandparents were schoolteachers and they farm and they live seven miles west of Ocilla. {NS} My paternal grandmother is still living and she was a seamstress and my paternal grandfather is dead and he ran a grocery store.
Interviewer:  Do you have any idea where your grandfather on your mother's side was born?
185:  Yeah He was born outside Gatlinburg Tennessee At a place known as Webb's Creek {NS}
Interviewer:  That's a little uh
185:  It's a it's a community. There's a Methodist church there that my great grandfather started.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  It was on his farm. And that's where he was born, he was born at Webb's Creek. {NS}
Interviewer:  Where where is Webb's Creek in relation to #1 {X} #
185:  #2 Okay it's # about seven miles east of Gatlinburg going towards Crosby. And there's it's a little dirt road there's bushes all around it and a little sign that says Webb's Creek Methodist Church. And if you don't remember that's where you're supposed to turn you're going to miss it.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 Could always go down to the boonies down there
{X}
Yeah #
185:  #2 Yeah. Yeah. # and there's the creek there it's there's you know, bottom land along the creek
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  and um the house was on the right-hand side of the creek and the church was on the left-hand side of the creek and they had a schoolhouse. But behind the church which is no longer there. And um the house is no longer there, the government bought bought the whole farm in the thirties for part of the national park. And um never used it
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  and the family was unable to buy it back when the government did sell it.
Interviewer:  You mentioned bottom land there Y- w-what do you mean by that?
185:  What, bottom land? It's flat land along a creek. On each side of a creek, it's very fertile land.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  It's flat land, it's about nearly flat land you'll find
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  in mountains
Interviewer:  Yeah Well uh your grandfather your maternal grandfather w-w- any idea of his schooling? #1 uh {X} #
185:  #2 Yeah # He um got a high school education got some college at a now-defunct college, Murphy College, finished up his B.A. at Georgia sometime probably in the twenties or thirties and then got a Master's from Georgia {NS} in around forty-six {NS} And my grandmother {NS} has {NS} {NS} I don't think she ever really finished high school, I know she's got about nine or ten years of high school and then {NW} {NS} I'm not sure she has a B.A. or not I know that she has either two or three years of college um she may have a B.A., I don't know. {NS}
Interviewer:  You could uh You could go to college without having graduated from #1 high school, is that it? #
185:  #2 Yeah # yeah. {NS}
Interviewer:  Do you do you have any what college uh uh she might've gone to?
185:  She did um some work at A-BAC, which was then Georgia State College for Men.
Interviewer:  At A-BAC?
185:  #1 A-BAC. A-B-A-C. Capitals. #
Interviewer:  #2 How do you spell that? #
185:  #1 It's Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College. #
Interviewer:  #2 Ooh {X} #
185:  It's in Tifton. Then it was Georgia State College for Men and changed names after that to I think, maybe um Georgia Agricultural and Mechanical. I'm not sure. She did some there and she may've and she did some work at University of Georgia and some work at University of Tennessee in Knoxville.
Interviewer:  {X} W-where did she study? Have any idea?
185:  #1 I have no idea. #
Interviewer:  #2 Major or anything? #
185:  I have no idea.
Interviewer:  Grandfather? #1 Do you know {X} #
185:  #2 Um he has a Master's in Education # {NS} I'm not sure what his what his B.A. is in
Interviewer:  Yeah, you said with the schoolteacher.
185:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Gotcha.
185:  He taught math. So a B.A. maybe in math. {NS}
Interviewer:  This uh Murphy College w- whereabouts is that?
185:  It's in Tennessee. It's um not too far from i-it was not too far from Gatlinburg.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  And I think it's been {NS} defunct for for many years now, they had a Murphy College reunion the summer that my fa- that my grandfather- that both grandparents went to. And um I think maybe that the last graduating class was about '27.
Interviewer:  Mm. {X} What about uh You wanna say something?
185:  No
Interviewer:  {NW} Okay. What about uh where your grandmother uh on your mother's side was born?
185:  She was born {NS} outside Mystic, Georgia in Irwin County.
Interviewer:  And you sp- you spell that how?
185:  M-Y-S T-I-C. Same way you spell Mystic, Connecticut.
Interviewer:  {NW} okay All right {NW} Well what about uh your other grandfather? Do you know where he was born?
185:  Yeah, he was born um in Irwin County right at the county line in a community called Gladys.
Interviewer:  Gladys?
185:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  It's like the
185:  G-L-A-D-Y-S yeah {NS} There's some there better than that.
Interviewer:  Like what?
185:  Well there's Arp
Interviewer:  #1 Arp? #
185:  #2 A-R-P #
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  And there's Abba A-B-B-A. Arp is on one side of the road and Abba's on the other side.
Interviewer:  {NW} Okay
185:  There's Lax.
Interviewer:  What?
185:  Lax L-A-X. There's Osier Field O-S-I-E-R F-I-E-L-D There's Holt Um Those are basically little communities, then there's Big Creek and River Bend.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
185:  River Bend is a community on the bend of the Alapaha River.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  It's not really a a town, it's just sort of like well, there's a Baptist church there, River Bend Baptist Church, and there're a lot of farms and around it and the people consider themselves the River Bend Community.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  And um That's about all. There's Bethlehem.
Interviewer:  Bethlehem.
185:  Yeah a lot of these are around are located around churches.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  It's sort of like everyone went to church at that at Bethlehem and so that's now the Bethlehem community.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  They consider it consider it to be that.
Interviewer:  Yeah. That's very good. Got a huge place still like that in Alabama too. Slap out.
185:  Right.
Interviewer:  But Two Egg is in Alabama?
185:  #1 No, Two Egg's in Florida. #
Interviewer:  #2 Florida. #
185:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Well what about uh your grandfather's schooling? uh
185:  Um I don't know He's been, he's been dead since since nineteen sixty-one And I don't I don't really know.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  And my paternal grandmother has a high school education.
Interviewer:  Do you know where she went to school?
185:  Um somewhere out in the county in Berrien County.
Interviewer:  #1 What is the? #
185:  #2 Berrien. #
Interviewer:  #1 Berrien? #
185:  #2 B-E-R-R-I-E-N # Which is south of Ocilla. It's the county immediately south of Irwin county. And um She was she's from Berrien County.
Interviewer:  Mm You're not married, are you?
185:  No.
Interviewer:  Okay so I don't have to ask you all this
185:  No
Interviewer:  {NW} W-where do you uh how many houses um have you lived in?
185:  I've lived in two. One th-that I lived in till I was about eighteen months old And then the one where we live now.
Interviewer:  Do you remember anything at all about the first one?
185:  Um no but I know It's still there
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  And um I don't remember anything about it, there was a picnic table in the backyard
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  and I remember that.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  And I remember going to some of the neighbors' houses. {NS} But as far as anything about the house itself I don't.
Interviewer:  Don't remember the type of construction or uh?
185:  Well it's um it's wooden construction with asbestos siding. But I don't I don't know that from having lived there, I know that because it's still there and I've seen it.
Interviewer:  Mm Do you remember the the layout of the room?
185:  No
Interviewer:  {X} What about the house that you're in now? What uh what's it like?
185:  It's um Ranch style It's um wooden siding and #1 you w- you want the layout or what? #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah I'll tell you what # {X} if you don't mind um right here on the the back of the sheet if you could just uh maybe just a very rough block sketch
185:  #1 Okay #
Interviewer:  #2 of the house # uh showing me the the layout of the different rooms and you know, describing it as you going along.
185:  #1 Okay #
Interviewer:  #2 Appreciate it. # {NS} {NS} Yeah Yeah, go ahead and uh
185:  Okay well there's in the middle of the house there's an entryway. then going from there on your left there's a living room which leads into a dining room and from the dining room on the other side of the dining room wall there's the carport there're two doors going from the dining room out into a hall the back side
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
185:  the hall opens onto a playroom and also onto a utility room and it goes into the kitchen yeah Um the kitchen opens on into the dining area and then there's a hall leading from the dining area down to the bedroom {NS} {NS} And {NS} they're full bedrooms. {NS} There's the guest bedroom which is next to the entryway and it has a bath. And it opens into the hall The same long hall that goes down to the bedroom
Interviewer:  Yeah
185:  There's my brother's bedroom And connecting bath with it to my bedroom {NS} which is all the way at the end of the house. {NS} Um the hall ends after it opens into my bedroom and there's doors into my bedroom and into my m- into my parents' bedroom {NS} and then their bath separate. And then their closet's between my bedroom bedroom and my parents'
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  bedroom {NS} And {NS} let's see the playroom has a fireplace {NS} And {NS} I believe that's {NS} Yeah, that pretty well takes care of
Interviewer:  So the house has about how many #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NS} #
185:  There Let's see. {NS} Counting the bedrooms and the bath there're thirteen rooms. Oh, and it has a back porch on it. {NS}
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  And there's a door going from the playroom to the back porch which I {NS} don't show because I've drawn it wrong.
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  Mm. {NS} Yeah. {NS} {NW}
Interviewer:  Where where're you living um what are you {X}
185:  I'm in Gilbert which is {NS} one of Emory's two co-ed dorms which the board of trustees likes to keep silent about
Interviewer:  {NW} {NS}
185:  Do you want a sketch of that room too?
Interviewer:  Mm {NS} {NS} {X} {X}
185:  Okay
Interviewer:  Artifacts there
185:  Okay Well the room in Gilbert is basically an efficiency it's um a big room with two windows {NS}
Interviewer:  It does have windows?
185:  It does have windows, yes. Opens onto a beautiful view of the Georgia Power substation
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  Um there's a kitchen closet which isn't big enough for anything and a bathroom. And there are two people to the room. {NS}
Interviewer:  Thank you. {NS}
185:  Can't {NS} get {NS} everything? {NS}
Interviewer:  Yeah {NS}
185:  Okay {NS}
Interviewer:  Y-y-you were going back uh to your uh your grandparents the one from uh do you wanna explain that about {X}
185:  Okay. How they got from Ben Hill county down to Ocilla and up from Lakeland in Berrien county Okay. My grandparents my maternal grandparents, were schoolteachers and it was back in the thirties and jobs were very very difficult to find a schoolteacher then as now they will teach as if they were jobs so that you had to have be be able to move a-and be ready to move to where there were jobs. They taught at Ashton, which was up in Ben Hill county, where my mother was born, for several years. Then a job two jobs opened up in Holt {NS} which is about seven miles west of Ocilla on Georgia thirty-two going to Douglas. This was back before there was a consolidated school system and every little area of the county had its own school. Job opened up in Holt and they moved there and taught there. Then I don't know why but for some reason they moved to Mystic. They owned a house in Mystic, and I'm pretty sure that they owned it at this time. And they kept wanting to get back to Mystic, and so since they had the house there and they moved jobs opened up in Mystic and they moved back to Mystic. And um {NS} they taught there. My grandfather taught math and was later the principle of the school. And m-my grandmother taught also there.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  And then my father was born in Lakeland {NS} And which is in Lanier county. And I'm not really sure why but moved back to moved up to Ocilla. But um I think I-I think my grandfather changed jobs that um I think he was maybe farming down in Lakeland. {NS} And um I think the job opened up that he was able to get into get into the store in Ocilla and so he moved up to Ocilla to do that.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  And that's how they got to Ocilla.
Interviewer:  Mm Now y-your grandfather on your father's side he's born in uh
185:  He was born in in Irwin county.
Interviewer:  In Irwin county. Specifically uh
185:  Um somewhere oh eighteen ninety, eighteen ninety-five
Interviewer:  #1 I mean well yeah location. #
185:  #2 Oh. In Gladys. #
Interviewer:  In Gladys.
185:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Yeah right, both of your grandparents from Gladys. {NS} Can you uh {NS}
185:  No not both of my grandparents were from Gladys my maternal grandmother was born in Berrien county. Gladys is in Irwin county.
Interviewer:  #1 I #
185:  #2 Oh, I haven't made I haven't made this clear, I'm sorry. # But she was born in Berrien county south of Nashville.
Interviewer:  All right.
185:  That's where their farm was and she was a Rowan.
Interviewer:  A what?
185:  #1 Rowan. R-O-W-A-N. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # Gotcha {NS} Do you know anything about uh earlier ancestors, great-grandparents, or anything like that?
185:  Um {NS} let's do maternal side.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  Um My paternal grandfather's parents were Joseph Shultz S-H-U-L-T-Z and Mary Mcmahan M-C M-A-H-A-N. And they lived up at Webb's Creek. He was the one he was a farmer and a Methodist minister and he is the one who built the Methodist church at Webb's Creek. #1 As- #
Interviewer:  #2 Say well o you know if they were born there or? #
185:  I have no idea. Um {NS} My {NS} my maternal grandfa- grandmother's parents {NS} were T-J Poole and Emma Smith.
Interviewer:  And that's P-double-O-L?
185:  P-double-O-L-E. {NS} {NW} And I th- I don't know where my great-grandfather Poole was born but my great-grandmother Smith was from Mississippi
Interviewer:  And then what about {X}
185:  No idea. But her brother was also in Irwin county. Um he was called {D: Doc Wheelus} He was, he-h-he was an undertaker.
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  And he used to um travel around from house to house and embalm people in the houses.
Interviewer:  {X}
185:  Yeah
Interviewer:  {NW}
185:  But see, there weren't any funeral homes then. And um {NS} so that the undertaker went from where the dead person well if it was at the hospital he'd go to the hospital and embalm 'em there. But if it was at the house, he'd go to the house and embalm 'em there. And um {NS} I don't know what it is about caskets, I guess they made 'em. But um their dead person would be on display #1 It's crazy {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NS} {NS} {NW} Yeah {NS}
185:  But they'd be um #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
185:  {NS} Anyway they'd be in they-they'd be in their house so as there were no funeral homes for people to go to, there weren't funeral homes until sometime in the forties and then all they had was like a viewing parlor.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
185:  And Um Only recently at least in Ocilla, had you had a funeral home with like a chapel and several parlors and nice, soft, piped-in
Interviewer:  Yeah
185:  Muzak
Interviewer:  Yeah
185:  And um and that but um #1 that that's what he did. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah # What can you uh
185:  And {NS} you wanted to know about my paternal grandparents great-grandparents okay My paternal grandmother's father {NS} was Jasper Rowan. And I don't know who her mother was. She died in a typhoid epidemic sometime in the eighteen-nineties eighteen-nineties, early 1900s. And then he remarried and his last wife is still living. Um but I can't think of her name now. But um and then as far as my paternal grandfather I don't know who his parents were. {NS}
Interviewer:  Do you have any idea where they were from?
185:  Yeah, they they were from Irwin county.
Interviewer:  That's where they were from?
185:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  I'm I'm pretty sure of that because of most of the Hendersons in Irwin county are from Irwin county originally.
Interviewer:  Mm. {NS} Do you know anything about the uh you know the ultimate origins of uh
185:  Yeah. Um The Shultzes came down to Tennessee from Virginia. And they came over to Virgina around seventy ninety. Sometime in the seventeen nineties. The McMahans I don't know about.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  The Pooles I don't know about. The Smiths I don't know about. {NW} The Hendersons the original Henderson um Daniel came down to Irwin county from North Carolina around {NW} eighteen twenty, eighteen thirty. Sometime in that era sometime in that period. Um {NS} The Rowans came down to Berrien county from North Carolina around the eighteen fifties because, well one reason that area of the state was settled late is that they thought it was all a malaria swamp. {NS} And um although Irwin county is very old and was formed in 1818.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
185:  it originally stretched from the Ocmulgee River around Macon down to the Florida line. {NS} Um The particular area where it is now was thought to be malaria swamp.
Interviewer:  W-what stock uh family is it English or?
185:  It's um English, Scotch-Irish. And there's some German blood flowing around.
Interviewer:  Yeah, yeah. {NS} {NS} You mentioned a little bit you were talking about uh uh the house that you that you live in now the the uh uh um W-what do you w-what would you call the uh the guest room in the house where you might entertain uh company? uh
185:  Um #1 the playroom or the living room, one or the other. It depends on um #
Interviewer:  #2 The living room #
185:  if it's more formal entertaining
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  then we'd be in the living room.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  If it's um {NS} more casual type in the playroom usually what happens is that we start out in the living room and everyone gravitates down toward the playroom
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  and sometimes we'll just start out in the in the playroom.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
185:  It all depends.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Have you ever heard the living room called anything else besides that?
185:  #1 Well it used to be called a parlor. Many many years ago. #
Interviewer:  #2 A parlor #
185:  The front room. {NS}
Interviewer:  The front room. What sort of person would be likely to call it the the parlor or the front room?
185:  #1 An older person. A much older person um #
Interviewer:  #2 Older person #
185:  {NS} My grandparents' generation
Interviewer:  Mm You ever heard it called uh the sitting room or?
185:  Oh yeah, I've heard it called the sitting room.
Interviewer:  Mm #1 That would be something again that an older person would be likely to call it. #
185:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  Yeah Is this house that you're living in now one of these uh high ceiling {X}
185:  No no no, it's um it was built in the nineteen fifties.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
185:  and they remodeled it around nineteen seventy.
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  So it's, it has it has lowered ceilings
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  it has low ceilings, not low ceilings standard height ceilings.
Interviewer:  How how high would you say that is real quick?
185:  That're eight feet.
Interviewer:  Eight feet.
185:  And um {NS} The playroom has an arch ceiling with beams
Interviewer:  Mm
185:  but that's just for decoration.
Interviewer:  Mm. Gotcha. And you mentioned you had a fireplace in this house.
185:  Yes.
Interviewer:  What is that like?
185:  It's um {D: raised harp} it's um three flues it's your standard fireplace.
Interviewer:  Three flues?
185:  Yeah
Interviewer:  What do you mean by that?
185:  Okay, flue is flue is what carries the smoke {NS} up from the fireplace from where you had the fire up out of your house.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
185:  And in older fireplaces all you had was like the open space. They'd just build up a rectangular chimney.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm {NS}
185:  And that would be that would be your flue but you now get terra cotta flue lines which are about six inch square and you put them in because electric chimney's safer. #1 It's less of a fire hazard #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
185:  with soot and everything building up and you use those now instead of having just one open space They're um three terra cotta flue three rows of terra cotta flue liners taking the that carry the smoke up.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh uh that's great. Well is there anything #1 uh right above your fireplace? or #
185:  #2 Yeah we have a mantle. #
Interviewer:  Yeah Ever heard that called uh {X}?
185:  No.
Interviewer:  You know like uh mantle board or mantle piece? uh
185:  Mantle piece, yeah.
Interviewer:  You mean the same thing?
185:  Means the same thing {X}
Interviewer:  You mentioned uh uh {D: attending} if say you had you know a lot of these tall things like you see uh in factories at uh the smoke
185:  The smokestack?
Interviewer:  You call that a smokestack?
185:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Well what about these uh these uh uh big pieces of wood that you #1 you burn in a fire. What would you call that? #
185:  #2 Logs. Logs. #
Interviewer:  Have you ever heard people call that by any other name?
185:  I can't think of any.
Interviewer:  Like uh backlog, a back stick uh #1 {X} #
185:  #2 No # No none of those.
Interviewer:  Well what about the way that you use tinfoil #1 to start a fire, the type of #
185:  #2 Kindling #
Interviewer:  Yeah
185:  Also fat lightered.
Interviewer:  Fat lightered.
185:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah Mm-hmm
185:  A good fat lighter, {D: strong fat lighted not.}
Interviewer:  Yeah in particular the kind of wood that uh that'll be
185:  Is pine Yeah um what Athens is is that Um they cut down the pine tree for lumber whatever and leave the stump in the ground well it's got a lot of {D: laws} in it And over the years it solidifies and hardens and it um it it's it lights up immediately if you stick a match to it to a splinter and it catches fire. and almost every farm has them and um {NS} And then my grandfather has some and um periodically they'll be cleaning out a field back in the swamps somewhere And they'll bring some up to the house to um make kindling out of {NS}
Interviewer:  Well what about uh you know when the the wood burns down what you have left uh you call those
185:  Ashes
Interviewer:  What color are the {X}
185:  Um black and then they turn white {NS}
Interviewer:  Does it make any difference uh with the color varying according to the type of wood that you burn in the fire place, have you had any idea?
185:  I had no idea it might, I don't know.
Interviewer:  Just not sure about that. Well what about you talking about uh the log {NS} you know uh those things inside the fireplace that you place those things across?
185:  Andirons. I've also heard them called fire dogs.
Interviewer:  Fire dogs
185:  My grandmother would {D: flush} them as fire dogs.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
185:  They still have um a fire place in their kitchen that they used to eat with in there and um she always and my grandfather both always referred to 'em as fire dogs. {NS}
Interviewer:  Ever heard 'em called dog irons?
185:  No. {NS}
Interviewer:  Well what about some of the uh {NS} the uh typical things that you would have in your living room that you might not have anywhere else in the house? You know, for example
185:  Well
Interviewer:  #1 the sofa #
185:  #2 the sofa #
Interviewer:  Yeah
185:  well we've got a sofa in the playroom {NW} So
Interviewer:  #1 Have you ever heard that referred to #
185:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #1 uh #
185:  #2 {NW} # As a settee?
Interviewer:  As a settee
185:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Is that another old uh
185:  Yeah well a settee is is somewhat different from a sofa. Usually you think of a sofa as being upholstered. And um a settee is usually high, bed-high-backed tends to be uncomfortable um and is generally somewhat different from a sofa.
Interviewer:  Mm And is that uh pair and they call it a a couch or your Davenport or
185:  I'd probably refer to it as a couch
Interviewer:  A couch #1 Not a Davenport #
185:  #2 Never a Davenport. #
Interviewer:  Not a Chesterfield?
185:  #1 No. #
Interviewer:  #2 No. # {NW} Well uh Any other uh uh things that are distinctive in you know
185:  #1 living room. #
Interviewer:  #2 Living room? #
185:  Pianos tend to be in living rooms Although we have a pipe um a Victorian parlor organ in ours
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  that you have to pump it to build up the air.
Interviewer:  Mm. {NS}
185:  {D: And then} {D: play on it.} Um
Interviewer:  What about these things, you know that you you sit in, like lean back or
185:  A recliner?
Interviewer:  Yes.
185:  Those aren't typically living room furniture.
Interviewer:  I mean what you're {NS} sitting in you call this just {NS}
185:  This is a chair.
Interviewer:  Any different uh special types of chairs for living room or
185:  Well, they're usually very nice, sometimes upholstered usually have upholstery in them.
Interviewer:  Well that's good. What about uh things that you would find in your bedroom? uh Specifically.
185:  A bed. A chest of drawers.
Interviewer:  Now what is #1 what is that? Could you describe that to me? Mm-hmm. #
185:  #2 A chest of drawers? # um It's the same thing as a dresser.
Interviewer:  #1 The same thing as a dresser #
185:  #2 Well # sort of. Usually you think of it well {NS} The dressers you see now are usually low with a and have a big mirror over them
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  and a chest of drawers is usually higher than a dresser
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  narrower and will have um more drawers than than a dresser. A dresser usually has say three drawers. A chest of drawers will have four or five.
Interviewer:  Mm These are uh chest of drawers though entirely
185:  #1 Entirely drawers. Mm-hmm. #
Interviewer:  #2 Entirely drawers, yeah. # Are they usually all the same size?
185:  Sometimes they are, sometimes you'll have the top drawer will be two smaller drawers
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  separate in the middle and then you would start with um solid drawers of the same size under.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. What about the dresser? Did the the size of the door vary there or?
185:  Sometimes. Sometimes you'll have two big drawers, a middle drawer and a bottom drawer. And then you'll have smaller drawers two individual drawers the top, that pull out.
Interviewer:  Mm. I see. So they differ uh in that the dresser does have a mirror and a chest of drawers does not.
185:  Well sometimes a chest of drawers does.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  Um My gran- my father has a chest of drawers in their bedroom that has a mirror on top. {NS}
Interviewer:  I see. Well uh can you think of uh any other names for uh those two?
185:  Well you you have washstands
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  which are low usually with one or two drawers like sort of a big drawer and then two small drawers. Um {NS} a top flat top and then a mirror
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  on top of it which is- u-usually attaches to a wooden frame at the top of that and that's what they used to keep um wash pitchers and basins on.
Interviewer:  Mm. {X} Well have you ever heard a chest of drawers or a dresser referred to as either a chifforobe or a chiffonier? Something like that?
185:  {NW} {NS}
Interviewer:  Which one?
185:  Um chifforobe.
Interviewer:  Chifforobe. And that was the same thing as
185:  Well it's not really the same thing. Chifforobe is more like a wardrobe-type thing.
Interviewer:  A wardrobe, what do you mean by that?
185:  Okay. A wardrobe, back before we had closets, you had wardrobes keep your clothes in. Um a wardrobe two big doors sort of like an armoire type only you'd open up the doors and instead of being drawers open there you would have a space to hang your clothes in and you might have say a shorter hanging space on the right-hand side than on the left-hand side and a few drawers there. Then you had maybe a drawer at the bottom.
Interviewer:  Mm.
185:  That would either be inside the door or you would it would be outside the door.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. {X} Well what about uh all these things that we've been talking about uh like chairs and and beds and uh chest of drawers, that sort of thing. Collectively you'd say that's all
185:  #1 Furniture. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # Say uh uh the uh you know, things that uh that uh keep out light that you put over the windows, you refer to those as
185:  Curtains. Draperies. Um drapes. We also have Venetian blinds.
Interviewer:  Oh what is that?
185:  Venetian blind is um it's they're either sometimes they're wooden although usually now, they're metal or plastic little slats
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  they have cords going down at each end they're bound at the bottom and at the top and you pull a cord and they raise and lower
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
185:  horizont- up and down. And you can pull other two cords and they'll either open or close to let light in or out.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm fascinating. Well have you ever seen these things that uh they're on rollers you know and you can {X}