Interviewer: {X} Okay that's on mm-hmm mm-hmm. This is the manual we use 412: Alright Interviewer: It has a lot of questions in it 412: Mm-hmm Interviewer: {NW} {D: What now} Now since we're not gonna do a complete interview Maybe skip around a little bit now 412: Alright Interviewer: Items and {NW} Basically What we're interested here is pronunciation You know 412: Mm-hmm Interviewer: For the dialect study and there are a few items that uh I, uh, I, uh usually try to, uh, to get you to say, in other words I won't uh Say them for you for you say I because sometimes when someone else says something it influences the way you say it 412: mm-hmm Interviewer: So sometimes I might say, uh You know I might point to something and you would tell me the what you call it or any alternates, uh any alternate ways a person would talk around you uh I think what I might do first is uh we use uh it sometimes helps us get started You built this house, didn't you? 412: yeah, yeah #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: #1 Well I didn't # Interviewer: #2 There's uh... # 412: do it myself of course but Interviewer: Well I mean 412: #1 I helped # Interviewer: #2 you laid it out # 412: #1 Okay I thought this # Interviewer: #2 # 412: Well actually I built this house out of thirty-six hundred dollars believe it or not These walls are eighteen inches thick Interviewer: This all stone? What kind of stone is this? 412: {D:Oh it's uh an old {X} from over here in the creek} it's granite and uh Weathered and stones of other types Little field stones not too much of that flint uh Interviewer: okay 412: #1 {X} five # Interviewer: #2 I'm just # 412: five or six times Interviewer: Okay, this community is uh, what do you call this community? 412: Loachapoka Interviewer: And uh, uh you're uh full answer? uh, What you would 412: Well {B} Well I've Not using {D:at all} but accepting official documents Interviewer: Okay 412: {X} Interviewer: And you just use Loachapoka as your address? 412: yeah, yeah We all had to have box numbers now Interviewer: Is that P-O-L-K-A? 412: mm-mm Interviewer: #1 P-O-K-A # 412: #2 P-O # Interviewer: #1 Not Polka it's Poka # 412: #2 yeah, uh # Interviewer: #1 # 412: #2 # {X} you showed up now {X} Interviewer: {NW} 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 Well I # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 Yeah, I noticed how {D: Polka-ing or something} # 412: #1 Yeah, that's what they use, it's P-O-L-K-A. # Interviewer: #2 # Yeah that's what, I think that's where I got the idea 412: yeah Interviewer: And you were born in {D: Lake} county? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Was it close to {NS} here? 412: {NS} Yeah down behind Interviewer: Down here with next to mr Ward? 412: No, behind, you know what Beyond that triangle and you turn right and go down that wire road oh about a half a mile Interviewer: {D: Hmm, here} Uh, do you, what do you consider your occupation to be right now? I mean, are you just 412: Well, I'm simply retired because I'll always as long as my health holds I'll be alright and columnist and my chief ambition if my health holds on is to write a history on the progress of southern agriculture in the last fifty years I'll make it sixty then if I get into it uh making, making it something like the Magnum Opus of my career I think I showed you that family history the other day Interviewer: yes 412: Did one on agricultural classics this was the last one I did uh before I left the company retired then we had done three hours take 'em in to hand wrote oh {NS} Bunch of printed {D:and or in} thirty six We sold about fifty thousand copies of that They {X} into handbooks and and our section in those days we spoke with someone {D: opportunity} then I've added to and aided in writing a lot of other books This is a South was one in which I collaborated in ran {D:magnetic book} Interviewer: {X} 412: mm-hmm Interviewer: Were you involved with this now you were involved with uh you said a, a publisher or a foundation that helped with this 412: No, this is company, this is a company publication Interviewer: Which, now, which company is this sir? 412: Progressive farmer company Interviewer: Progressive farming 412: Uh We had invested millions in this just to get it started Interviewer: As a matter of fact the reason I, the reason I, that book looked familiar to me is that this again I saw it in, uh, Illinois 412: Yeah, uh I'm not surprised Yeah Interviewer: As a matter I might've even bought it, uh I often buy them, especially if it had James Dickey's name on 'em #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 I might've done it just for that purpose originally # uh 412: Yeah his book, "Deliverance," um, brought him a lot of attention, uh Good and bad {NS} I guess Interviewer: Well I've been, uh studying mr Dickey since he's been doing his poetry 412: yeah Interviewer: Um, back a bit before Deliverance but he did some lectures at our university for 412: uh-huh, He elected, you know, at this humanities conference There was held here I'm on this advising council for the humanities in universities and this was a project of, uh group, the humanities group and school of arts and sciences {NW} {NW} Interviewer: What's, what's your age sir? Your age, sir? 412: Going on seventy-one. Be seventy-one in September Interviewer: Okay 412: {NW} Interviewer: And your religion is Methodist? 412: Methodist. {NW} Still have a little {D:primitive} Baptist in me from my grandma {X} Interviewer: Got some Baptist on that side It, now this community basically, I is it, uh kinda, divided along religious lines 412: #1 or is it, uh, together # Interviewer: #2 No, no, we're no longer divided # 412: There are some communities where there still seems to be divided but in this {D: area} We don't attend each other's preaching services as we ought to but uh we all work together Interviewer: Alright 412: uh, as far as Baptists and Methodists go, you know they separate over communion and immersion and sprinkling Interviewer: And, what was the second term? 412: Uh, sprinkling Interviewer: No, you said "mushing?" 412: Immersion Interviewer: Oh, immersion Yeah, or sprinkling. 412: Well, that still goes on, but uh the communion, we unite, join with each other in communion Interviewer: You know my family, my uh grandmothers on my mother's side have all been Methodist and I was raised Baptist because my 412: #1 {X}, yeah # Interviewer: #2 father's side was, I mean his parents were all Baptist # and uh, it goes along the family lines uh in our family 412: well I was brought up and lived, until recent years, believing that uh any nun would be a Methodist and a Democrat Well, as I'm begin to get into this history I discovered that we had a lot of Baptists and uh Then I discovered in the last very few years we got Presbyterians Interviewer: uh-huh 412: Which surprised me because I don't think any of our people came from Scotland so, I think we just got in maybe like you did, and, and {D: Your kids} Interviewer: Right okay Uh, um, what's uh your educational level, so how far did you go in education? 412: Well I simply finished a B.S. formerly then I did, um night school working in Birmingham after I'd gone to work with progressive farmer company in journalism, and um then in fifty-nine the university here university conferred on me the honorary doctor science degree {NW} Interviewer: okay and uh, uh I know that, well you're obviously in um, active in the historic society but you you remembered various other community uh, organizations or social groups? 412: Yeah {NW} too many I think belonged to the in the historical field American State Association or What is that exact title? A-A-S-L-H? I wish I... Well anyways, it's uh Association of State Historical Societies and relating groups headquarter's national and then of course, I belonged to the Heritage Association which is an Albany based group the State Historical Association and Southern Historical Association haven't gone farther than that, really I been invited into a number of- I do belong to the Newcomen Society of North America Interviewer: Newcomen? 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: okay uh any um, local civic 412: #1 I'm {D: relying} # Interviewer: #2 organizations? # 412: #1 {D:overlined} # Interviewer: #2 reliant? # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 okay # 412: and then I really attend club here locally It was in a field, such as I served in all these years you come to have membership in a lot of other things soil conservation societies and numerous others Interviewer: You have like a, do you have the equivalent up north we have granges do you have the equivalent of like a grange, here? 412: uh, the farm bureau of course has been the dominant organization all through this area. When I was just beginning to grow up there were farmers alliances, it was just dying out and the farmer's union had preceded that I suppose a farmer's alliance and this area, perhaps most of the Southeast, or was it most of rapidly spreading and uh most, yeah most loyal group that uh, ever got into any uh, real society that was still, well, only one I guess to my knowledge there was still one alliance warehouse alliance building, as we called it still standing when I was a boy uh the movement swept the South so rapidly in {D: populist} days you recalled, the Populist movement Interviewer: Now that's the same {NW} Excuse me, the same Populist movement that made the impression on the eighteen nineties 412: #1 yeah, oh yeah # Interviewer: #2 the election # 412: Williams Jennings Bryan and {NW} all the others Interviewer: okay uh how about, uh, uh uh, in your parent's name your mother's side of the family are your parents' birthplace, maybe your mother {X} 412: Well, uh, momma and papa both were born in this era, in that momma was born down to in Armstrong, which is about two miles south of the home place and papa was born there on the home place and that's this one on the wire road about four miles, four and a half miles Interviewer: Down by bee hive? 412: yeah yeah on, this is it part of the land Bill's now operating Interviewer: Are, are you uh, would you consider yourself, uh, associated with farming here? 412: #1 oh yeah # Interviewer: #2 I mean would you consider yourself # sort of a farmer 412: And they would get dissociated from it, even if they'll quit farming himself I, uh Oh, I don't know, I get all the {D: SDM} material and I get the Mississippi material and the Florida material and the Georgia material and get a little North Carolina then from time to time I'll order special things right now, for example, I'm going to order this new book from {D: Iowa} on the the history of agriculture going back to the seventeen hundreds I believe, comes forward to well, maybe nineteen hundred anyway, it's just been announced and I believe that {NS} motion, piece or side to order it Interviewer: okay, uh, how about your parents' education? 412: Papa, uh, went what was through what was called the eighth grade in his day, but it must've amounted to a a co- not a college education, a high school education Now momma never did get any farther than uh I think about what was called the fifth grade in, in her day Interviewer: okay 412: Schooling was hard to come by uh, seventy-five years ago, uh Interviewer: yes 412: uh When Papa, he, he quit after the eighth grade he had gone to Dublin, Georgia and lived a year with his oldest brother but in that eighth grade, he was taking subjects that I think we get until eleventh, twelfth grade so it hadn't been too many years, well it's been a long time for the average youngster but in in my thinking it hadn't been too many years since we only had eleven grades for high school sometimes I'm not sure that it wouldn't be just as well off if we didn't have eleven now I hear a lot of these twelfth {D: racking} and complaining about the nothing to do the last year this is sorta, a feeling that {D: my daughters} down at Enterprise have now Interviewer: You mean that they may feel there's nothing being taught or 412: Well for example, uh there, there are two children one boy and one girl Bill is the younger of the two and he finished, uh last year, and Sidney's already in college and Bill seems to feel that uh what he's getting now just saw him, as he said to me the other day is kind of a review of what they've done and I, {D: i mean} I get it the state high schools and the colleges have worked out a plan whereby if a youngster can pass {D: a certain} uh test he no longer has to get a high school certificate Interviewer: You mean to go to college? 412: yeah Interviewer: You mean like a general education development well they have one in Illinois called the GED 412: #1 Well I mean, you made that, uh-huh # Interviewer: #2 General education, and development # 412: #1 Well # Interviewer: #2 Well # 412: Apparently this is a trend that I hadn't known much about until the last year or two but apparently it is a trend now actually in high school I went a one full year this was um last year, the senior year and the two middle years were the two flu years and I remember that we were out of school two months and all of a sudden just closed down and then the next year, I don't, I don't remember how long it was closed down but I know the first year I quit school in March to help Papa farm. So I got about two years of high school, no no it'd be near two and a half, really of high school and then my first year in college, uh, we were on the quarter system and uh I didn't attend a single class the last quarter, I Dr. {D:Dow, Dows, bright dows} simply let me take the examination Interviewer: Now, when you were younger though you didn't, you didn't, you lived and worked on the farm 412: uh, no Well, I worked on the farm, worked uh, with Papa We were living in old {X} when I was in grammar school And I got a good foundation in grammar school {D: No, no other sub} had a good this was a new school new principal I'm sure uh, we had teaching and training above average Now my brother, he um, he started out bee-hiving he didn't get nearly as good a background as I did Interviewer: hmm You think the like, the educational systems uh, you sort of indicated earlier that you thought maybe the educational systems uh, grammar schools, high school systems were kind of coming down from where they were uh, years ago 412: #1 In qual- in quality # Interviewer: #2 You mean, in number of years? # 412: Well, we, we had a we had a lot of poor schools and uh I guess I'd have to say that a lot of kids before busing days and we didn't really have a busing system until the thirties, even for some of the whites it was hard for a lot of youngsters to get a high school education unless they'd come into town and live with Aunt Sally uh, uh, spend the week with Uncle Jim uh, somebody else in the family, or some close friend the number of our people right through here got their high school training that way and that's probably what I did even when I was an old {X} spent boarding with a cousin but, as we gradually got, uh busing uh and better roads, we didn't have any roads {X} thirty-five which was just forty years ago Interviewer: What kind of roads did you have when you were a 412: #1 Well # Interviewer: #2 {D:young one around here} # 412: In this area I used to say we got stuck in the sand when it was dry and stuck in the mud when it was wet and that's not far from the truth Interviewer: Yeah 412: but up in the Red Hills uh they were in pretty good shape when it was dry except, that ol' red dust but when it was raining, well they had a problem Interviewer: The first roads that came through were they like a black top, or concrete, or what 412: No no, no at first roads were gravel top Interviewer: Gravel top... 412: {X} gravel surface and actually I think if we looked into the records I've got piles on it upstairs see Old Senator Bankhead and the father the second Bankhead he was given credit, given credit for the building or the initiation and helping to establish that decent road system that we began to build on I guess around nine- between nineteen hundred and nineteen ten Well, uh, sort of a sand clay was what they started with and then they well and I'm sure there were spots where they built gravel roads {X} then, uh sort of a gravel, uh type of, the, the clays and sands in here better than others for road, uh I coulda shown you down at the museum this morning. We using a type of sand and clay off of that hill out there that just packs down and becomes almost as hard as a floor, well listen they learn where there were deposits of that sort of sort and so that's what they'd use to surface a road and then came along with gravel, and uh uh {X}, maybe and then uh, actually except for limited errors in a town, larger towns and cities we didn't have any roads about thirty-five Interviewer: hmm Even the towns, the towns that developed, uh streets and roads 412: #1 Yeah, well # Interviewer: #2 fairly early on, you mean that # 412: I'd say right here that uh Auburn and Opelika they had any number of just plain dirt streets dirt surface streets uh in, in fairly modern times goodness alive, uh You shoulda seen Auburn uh fifty fifty-five years ago when our class entered {D: four twenty} You wouldn't believe it how bad it was compared to today {NW} You, did you look at that picture on the bulletin board on #1 Auburn in nineteen hundred? # Interviewer: #2 yeah # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 I looked uh, well it, it # 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 it, uh # Well, I didn't get a good uh, picture, uh view, a feel of the streets but 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 but, uh you know # 412: #1 I guess, yeah, yeah if you # Interviewer: #2 it looks a lot different # 412: If I'd been there, if I'd thought about it, I'd have pointed it out to you See Auburn didn't even have a bank till nineteen seven Interviewer: Wow 412: And then they had one telephone, two telephones, I believe In nineteen two or nineteen three Interviewer: Was, uh, Opelika the main commercial center all all the way through, or 412: Uh, since seventy about seventy-two And assumed that it was evidence that there was gonna be a railroad junction there it, it continued to {X} Opelika, actually it wasn't in Opelika at the time, {X} Loachapoka no {X} It was a {X} little community Known as Lebanon, this was Interviewer: Lebanon? 412: Lebanon, this was uh Sort of the heart of the a Methodist church known as Lebanon was a sort of the pivot, or And I'm told this was one of my friends that told me the other day I tried to help him with his family genealogy he's uh been associated with this TV tape development apparently importantly he was telling me that his guest house there on Opelika, on the South side {NS} is supposed to have been the exact spot of the {NS} tradings No, that was the exact spot for the Post office, I believe, uh one of the Post Offices is just sort of a staged {X} and then at the trading center, I believe or the no, it wouldn't have been the trading center Oh the trading post! was out where his guest house is and this is out just on the edge of that uh industrial complex on the South, um yeah the trading post was um by his guest house and then if you go straight through the woods and uh uh Charles' property You'd come to Lebanon in about a half a mile, there's a marker there and this is where the post stop was Interviewer: I'm just curious, uh since we're doing sort of a language study and one thing we usually ask is {NW} Do, do you think that that the language has uh drastically changed much I mean, you know that the type of language people tend to speak now though the proper language, you know the language that people, uh, consider proper at a at a time, or even the, the what you might call, the average, uh language, or the common language 412: Well, I think in this area this has been probably a continuous process I've seen a lot of change since I was interested see one of my fortes was English and I've always liked it and of course as I got into this field of journalism and writing it became more and more important but there, there's been a lot of change uh there's been a great change among our negro people they speak much more good in this {X} and, uh in days gone by there are more negro enunciations, or pronunciations if you please uh among the whites than there is today you know whites and blacks don't rub elbows as much as they once did Interviewer: hmm So there is somewhat of a change? 412: Oh yeah, there's been a big change Interviewer: What do you think about the language that you hear, like on TV, or something like is that, is that very much different than uh 412: Oh, I'm I think I'm biased against TV and I get irritated with TV English every time I listen to a program over a night's period For example, {NS} I think it's just stupidity every script writer apparently for TV has the phrase "I understand" to talk back, or answer back to certain types of uh questions that might come up regardless of whether it's a shooting or a a marriage, or whatever "I understand" Well that's asinine to me I don't believe any of our folks would have that sort of a stock phrase uh they'd say, maybe if it was within a family, "Mm-hmm" or, uh #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 You, you mean an, as an affirmative someone said # 412: #1 yeah, mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 and, they said "well I understand" # 412: No, this TV saying, #1 "I understand" # Interviewer: #2 Oh, oh # 412: And I'd say, if it's within the family and among people you knew you'd say "Mm-hmm" something like that as affirmative uh, if it is a person maybe on business and he wanted your opinion, you'd say, "Well, I think so" That's probably right Phrase I usually use is usually includes "right" in "that's about right" "I think you are right" something like, but this idea of every person, uh No matter what his state in life say "I understand" they about all the niggers, you know Interviewer: Yeah 412: Well that, they just didn't make any sense Interviewer: you ever heard anybody say something like, uh "Well that's right" and then after they'd say something like after they'd say, after well let's say a person's trying to convince someone else 412: #1 yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 of an argument or point, and you would say # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 "Now you agree with that # 412: #1 yeah, yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 don't you," or, or, "That's right, ain't it" or something like that # Yeah? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Now that's, that's more of the like good questions in a book 412: Uh You might not I think, saying it today, you wouldn't use "ain't" much as often uh uh You, you might say it this way "Doesn't that about sound like you think?" or isn't that about what you think Interviewer: Someone, uh, some people might say, uh, "That's right" uh, or, or "I'm right, am I not?" or 412: yeah #1 yeah, yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 You might've heard that... yeah # Okay, back to this questionnaire Uh, what was the occupation of your parents? 412: Uh Well, Mama was always a homemaker and Papa was always a farmer and Papa, Papa was a good civic leader too He had a strong temper And a strong sense of justice and injustice and uh this led him, I think, to make some decisions, that uh maybe if he'd have thought 'em over a little bit more he wouldn't have done but if he thought I don't care if it was a blackish nigger or the um wealthiest white man if he thought he was being wrongly treated uh that was his opinion and I inherited a lot of that myself and I find it in the family pretty much in all of our close family, I hadn't rubbed elbows enough with distant cousins to find out how far it's reached there uh I think I made some decisions over my lifetime simply by inheriting that same trait I'm not bragging on myself it just just the way your mind runs uh, for example, um Papa been leading a sun- a superintendent Sunday school and leading the lodge We had a Woodmen of the World I think it's still organized {X} {D: dead after this air} Interviewer: What was the name of that again? 412: Woodmen of the World Interviewer: Woodmen? 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Is that like a- a Now is that, is that a professional group? uh 412: #1 mm, well it was a secret order # Interviewer: #2 or was it # oh, oh, okay. 412: We've got one or two tombstones out here in the cemetery Woodmen of the World markers Well he was, uh, I've forgotten what they taught me in {X} he was a head the lodge But things came up, that, uh he thought weren't fair and uh, weren't right and uh he resigned as Sunday School superintendent he got out of the lodge eventually And I can look back on my own career and I I can see some things happening, also was a something of a warning to me to be careful, uh, uh think, think it over twice {NW} {NS} Interviewer: I think we all have, I know I have traits like that I 412: yeah Interviewer: there's some parts of my uh, I respect my grandfather on my mother's side 412: #1 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 a great deal. He's from Kentucky and he's backwoods # But there are aspects about him that I have to be very careful about because, uh I can see 'em in me and they're not pretty 412: yeah #1 yeah {NW} # Interviewer: #2 yeah {NW}, okay, uh # How about the uh, your maternal grandparents, do you uh, uh, where were they, they born, you know, education, just 412: #1 Uh, well # Interviewer: #2 general background # 412: On grandma Finch's side the family has been in here well, since anybody ever got here these were the tailors over {D: Todo-amnesa} Well little bit north of {D: Nelson} {X} and north of Baron's crossroads they were members of that {X} from the Baptist church, but The Finches, we haven't been able to find much about Grandpa yet uh his daughters ain't very particular and always said he was nice I mean he probably was he had something of a appearance of an Irishman uh That's about all I ever knew, he didn't have but one sister and she didn't have but one daughter and she had no children so the only lineage left of Grandpa's family is is his immediate descendants Interviewer: hmm 412: {NW} Interviewer: And, and you think they might've been originally, uh Irish 412: I think grandpa Finch was, not grandma, uh Tailor's you know, could be most anything, that, they could be Scots or Interviewer: yeah 412: Could be English I don't think they could be Welsh But there's so many Tailors You you find it hard to separate them out I haven't even tried to get back at my great-great-grandfather Interviewer: Hmm You ever heard of the, uh people in the South they have a name "Tailor" and they change it to Sitaris 412: #1 No... no # Interviewer: #2 The Latin word for Tailor? # I ran across that once, I thought it was kind of strange to have a name like Sitaris, which is Latin 412: #1 Uh-huh, uh-huh # Interviewer: #2 For tailor, you know # 412: #1 No, I, I know that # Interviewer: #2 No? # 412: #1 changed # Interviewer: #2 {NS} # 412: #1 {NS} # Interviewer: #2 # Uh, um, how old is your, uh how old is your wife, sir? Or would you mind I ask? 412: No, she doesn't mind, uh Sally'd be uh Seventy... I- seventy-one. Sally'll be sixty-nine in January Interviewer: And she's also Methodist? 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 Both of you # 412: #1 Now she comes from # Interviewer: #2 And um # 412: An old-time Scots Presbyterian family on her father's side Interviewer: okay 412: {D: what's all believe} what is to be will be And I got to {D: kid 'em} one day and I said um "So if you believe that, why aren't you willing to fly, to ride a plane?" He didn't like plane flying at all I said "If, if you going to die where from a plane flight you're going to die anyway." He said, "Yeah but the Lord just didn't intend for me to get up in the plane to start with!" {NW} #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 That was, that was on a # Who was it that said that, now? 412: This is Sally's father Interviewer: oh 412: That's, that's where the Scots Presbyterian #1 Side, yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 All the predestination, yeah # 412: #1 Ordination # Interviewer: #2 or # 412: #1 and predestination # Interviewer: #2 right # 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 I didn't, I just now caught the connection {NW} # {NW} uh, is, uh her family from this area too? Are they from Mount Si- 412: No, uh Mister old Stanley was from North Georgia but we found him in the Revolution We just hadn't gone back far enough yet to get the uh, lines, this is the next job I set for myself now mm, uh Sally's mother's people were German {B} And we don't know when they came to this country at least I don't think any of Sally's immediate family ever knew they, they were in the Talladega area for a good many years You know what Talladega is? Interviewer: No I don't, sir 412: Well it's due north of here, it's a part of the old creek session Talladega itself is a county seat off Talladega county it's about, uh about seventy miles southeast of Birmingham Interviewer: okay What about, now, how, how much education how high did your wife go? 412: uh, she finished her first year of college Interviewer: Okay {NS} And she has uh, uh {NS} social contacts or clubs the {X} 412: Yes, uh I guess She and one or two other ladies are the only members of several of the Auburn clubs Sally belongs to the D-A-R she belongs to the uh Daughters of the Confederacy she was eighteen years a member of the county school board Interviewer: okay the school board that's on tape.. so I guess I'll write it down too Alright, uh basically, now you said you built this house, or at least you helped design it, I guess did you design it? 412: Well one of my classmates drew it and of course we worked with him we trust in him he gave us a fine design he did originally designed a French provincial it was to be so much more expensive than this type that we took well we really sorta condensed a French provincial you are familiar with that style, the wings you know well actually we just kinda squeezed in uh Interviewer: Well, um now what we sometimes do here, show you uh, do it {X} is uh perhaps maybe a wrong one um 412: okay okay Interviewer: Here's a good, uh, a real brief sketch of the 412: #1 yeah, yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 place in the back of the picture here so # Uh, I can get you, what you call the Truman 412: Alright, well this is very simple It's um, it's a ten room {NS} well the sun, ten-room house with a sun porch knew, I'm sure you recognized the sun porch is over here sun porch then the kitchen then we make it kitchen dining room except for when we're having formal meals Interviewer: Okay, now this is an upstairs-downstairs, this is two-story, right? 412: yeah Interviewer: Does it have a basement? 412: No, we wish we'd put a basement in but those were rough days and we were trying to save everything we could Interviewer: Okay, uh The room that we're sitting in right now, what, what do you call this 412: #1 Well this is a # Interviewer: #2 room? # 412: customary den uh, what we'd kinda call a den, you know Interviewer: Okay 412: This was a bedroom for us at one time Interviewer: okay Would you have called this a den, or would, uh your parents have called it a den? 412: I don't know what we would've called this, you see when I was growing up the family the bedroom may have been your sitting room, usually the parlor was a guest bedroom and, uh then your sitting room might be anywhere uh I don't Interviewer: might've- 412: I'm trying to think how many homes I could think of that had what we would call a parlor which woulda been without a, without better accommodations but, the old home place we considered the the guest bedroom the parlor but when neighbors and friends came to see us we usually would sit in, in, Mama and Papa's bedroom which of course a great big room, eighteen by eighteen high ceilings, that sort of thing Interviewer: I wonder, wonder if you'd have a a two uh, a great many relatives visit you in an older place like that, you didn't have enough beds or rooms or couches for everybody to sleep on Did you ever lay something on the floor for 'em'? 412: oh, yeah Interviewer: What, what'd you call that? 412: Well, we called it a pallet, usually uh Course they were trundle beds too we never had one but it wasn't uncommon uh, just rolled 'em under the bed uh and then you might just put a mattress down on the floor! and in the summertime, you just maybe give a youngster a pillow and a sheet or something over the floor and that was it but I also have vivid memories still of going to visit cousins and when we were small we'd sleep feet to feet and I guess I've slept with as many as four in a bed Interviewer: huh that's quite a few 412: Two at the #1 head, you know and two at the feet # Interviewer: #2 Two, {X}, yeah # 412: at the foot of the bed and then you'd have two with the heads at the foot board and two at the headboard {NW} Interviewer: Incredible 412: {NW} Interviewer: Alright now, we've got the den here and the kitchen and that's, the you, the sun porch 412: #1 yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 beyond the kitchen that's over here # 412: yeah Interviewer: Does it take up the um, uh, whole side with the dining room too? 412: Yeah, the dining room wall uh, is a wall also for the sun porch Interviewer: okay 412: Now You'll have to keep in mind that that's an offset Interviewer: right 412: and that wall let's see Interviewer: This is the basic sketch, anyway, I'm thinking of something like this 412: Well, wait a minute, I think I show it better here and then you decide how you want it Interviewer: oh, okay 412: {X} Interviewer: {NS} Or if you wanna just sketch it here, yourself 412: Well, uh-oh Interviewer: Oh, that's alright {NW} 412: See here's your, here's your south wall {NS} and that comes all the way across now Come in! Interviewer: Oh, that's okay 412: Hey, David, how are you doing? auxilliary: Fine, that's that's my brother 412: Good to see you! {B} David {B} #1 Hey, how are you? # auxilliary: #2 {X} # 412: #1 Listen # auxilliary: #2 It's fine # 412: {B} Here auxilliary: oh It started sprinkling, I thought I'd 412: #1 Thank you, {X}, well you gotta letter! # auxilliary: #2 come over # 412: #1 # auxilliary: #2 # 412: #1 What, did you want another, more? # auxilliary: #2 We got a lot of {X} # 412: #1 # auxilliary: #2 # 412: #1 Well I, # auxilliary: #2 We might get more, if it doesn't stop raining # 412: #1 Is it? # auxilliary: #2 It's just sprinkling now, I'm not thinking of the rain much # 412: #1 Well, take a long {X}, if you want to Thomas # auxilliary: #2 okay # 412: #1 # auxilliary: #2 {NW} # 412: #1 Winding to go # auxilliary: #2 {X} {NW} # 412: #1 {X} # auxilliary: #2 It'd sure help # 412: #1 # auxilliary: #2 # 412: Uh, y'all have a seat, unless you're getting ready to leave auxilliary: {X} 412: Alright {NW} You can just go ahead in the- there's nothing in it truck- Tommy! auxilliary: yes? 412: Are those peaches- apples all, and the corn all out? auxilliary: Uh, Alex's apples are still in there and then the squash is in there 412: Well, oughta take the squash out, and the peaches out auxilliary: I think so 412: Well, how about in the cab? auxilliary: Oh I don't know about the cab, I'll check and get it 412: Alright Interviewer: okay 412: #1 Oh yeah # Interviewer: #2 Now this is your son? # 412: #1 We do our cemetery on contract # Interviewer: #2 oh # 412: What David and Tommy been working with me for a long time together And they been taking the contract jointly but right now Tommy sorta has by itself by himself and uh I don't think he likes it too much {NW} working out there by himself Interviewer: Right, while I was when, {NW} when I was out there earlier 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 he was # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 cutting # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 'Course now there was someone else # 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 over on the other side, {X} I guess it was just a family plot # 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 they were cutting # trimming up uh uh That's quite an area. 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 I mean that's.. plus you have to, a lot of um # 412: #1 yeah # Interviewer: #2 close and you have to be careful not to run into # 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 some of the older stones # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 So # 412: Yeah we've got about three acres in that cemetery proper hmm Interviewer: I can empathize with that because I used to have to cut two acres in place we lived in 412: yeah Interviewer: And that was just square, you know 412: Yeah #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Maybe a few trees and no stones # Gets to be quite a job 412: Yeah {NW} {NW} Um, well and he {NS} Yeah, I'm {X} show you this thing Now Now up here on the front side the wall is also straight, like that but here's your offset for you porch your front porch entrance Interviewer: okay 412: and really this would be open here then you see here's about the way this works Let's see now, this should be there and then See now {NW} {X} Well this is divided half and half I think I got my proportions a little off Interviewer: That's okay. 412: But that's about right cuz it only space we got here is the door and here's your here's your kitchen And this is the den, this is the bedroom, I've got this too short again {X} And then over here you see we've got the bedroom wall here matching that but we've also got the bathroom, you see, built in here uh Well let's see We've got to come off a little bit each one this is your little Annie room or hall and here'd be your bathroom I've got this too long, this is these are fifteen by thirteen as I remember, both of these are bedroom and then this is a bathroom here and this is a little Annie room right there and then this is this one here is a twenty-two by fifteen plus the stay away here it goes upstairs and here's your fireplace This was originally designed for a three-way fireplace We never used it, we closed this one up this would've been in the kitchen and this is, we always use this one when having our Christmas Eve party and family gathering and that sort of thing and then uh We use this fireplace, we got the heat pump system but we use this fireplace just because we like it and also it's cost-saving, money saving. We got plenty of old hickory, and pine, and everything else This is too long too much elongated here and Interviewer: okay 412: But this is twenty-two by fifteen and I've forgotten what the proportions here are I wish you would look Interviewer: Yeah, it's starting to rain 412: Blow me down This, this I think is about between ten and eleven feet there and I think it says the same thing here Let's see, thirty-five thirty this number's about thirty The span of the house is thirty-five and a half the beams in the front room are span the entire house Now thirty-five and a half feet and the walls thirty-six Um That'd be thirty The net the net space in here counting inside walls would be about thirty-two five Recognizing that your outside walls are eighteen inches Interviewer: okay And this is uh, like a bathroom 412: Yeah Yeah, and then there the upstairs bathroom and was built of course, right over this same design but the rest of it is rather different Interviewer: Okay, now, what, what would you call this room here, sir? 412: What is it? #1 We call it # Interviewer: #2 This room, this twenty-two by # 412: the living room Interviewer: Okay Would you call it that, uh old, uh, the older 412: Well #1 No # Interviewer: #2 The, that you would call # 412: With us, that time is just virtually just a pin Some people have parlors but we don't think of that in the old sense of "parlor" Interviewer: Okay And this is, uh What room is this? 412: That's our bedroom family bedroom Interviewer: And this room over here? 412: That's a guest bedroom. Right now it's a my second study got so much material piled up in there for the museum and personal material Interviewer: Okay and the upstairs is, uh 412: Well, the upstairs is um just a think of it as the same basically, you got your opening, you see here only a porch So you got your same thing {NS} And you got that {NS} bathroom immediately sitting on this bathroom Interviewer: okay 412: Except there also is another factor in here now I'll just draw this in, this should be open here but here's your bathroom and then here is a storage closet, right in here and then under under this then this would be a sort of a low attic here Well, here's your trend thing but we've got this battery, uh closets now run down to here and then the whole heat pump cooling and heating system is right in Well I shouldn't have shown it to you just Well it's gonna be too many right in here that's right over yonder over there sun porch, sun then on this, here's my this really is my study now, right here uh the one that's right in the center and this just about centers the study And this is set up as a library type study and then over here is a storage room for books and magazines and records and so on Interviewer: okay 412: Then if you remember the, keep the chimney in mind now here's a bedroom here's a bedroom and then, this is a little bit well it's not that much larger either this is When the children are all at home, this is Bill's room this was Peggy's and Ruthanne's room And this was Patricia's room She was our youngest child fourth child Interviewer: So you got three bedrooms, this 412: Mm-hmm Interviewer: okay 412: #1 Yeah, and this is # Interviewer: #2 I just need a basic, uh # 412: Your stair, here, of course that I've shown here open Interviewer: Okay, stairway 412: yeah And there wouldn't be enough offset here of course, I've drawn the bathroom a little too long be an offset here so, uh, so you got a door right there And that's counter balanced over here, we've got another closet actually right in here and then you walk away to get at this closet you come in from this side Interviewer: okay, that's fine Alright uh, now Get down here, just Start off and see how far we get now A lot of the things, in the discussion we've talked about You've already mentioned many of the items 412: #1 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 So that's one reason I've asked you certain questions # Now I'm trying to, uh 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 Expedite things, just a little bit # Um, and uh You, you I think you said, uh you were talking about the chimney 412: Yeah Interviewer: Yeah Would you, uh just out of curiosity, would you call a, you know, like a fa- on a factory, where maybe like a brick yard or something where they have ovens 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 And the tall brick # Uh chimney, they have a, would you call that a chimney too? 412: Well Interviewer: Okay Uh 412: Now there, there is a distinction in a home chimney we still use 'em to the extent that you're gonna You'd speak of a stack chimney which would be a multiple-opening chimney #1 Which this is # Interviewer: #2 Is that a # Like, now this one has three openings? 412: Yeah it has two, now, we close up one Interviewer: The one in the kitchen? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Oh 412: Uh That would be a stack chimney well, just a single chimney would be that is, for a single room or a single outlet you call that a single chimney, maybe #1 Or just say chimney # Interviewer: #2 Now # Right On, on, now on this one was it originally open all the way through to three 412: #1 No, no # Interviewer: #2 three rooms? # 412: #1 No, no # Interviewer: #2 Or you use # I've seen some, you know, that you they just have open space to two rooms built one fire for two, but that seems 412: I don't believe we have that type down here You'd always separate, you'd have a wall here as we have a fire- firebrick wall Interviewer: Alright I noticed that it's that way Uh, uh what, what do you call the, uh, the open place in the that brick place in front of that fireplace, there, the open place in the floor 412: You mean the hearth? Interviewer: Yes, sir 412: Yeah Interviewer: Okay How about in the, in the fireplace the things that you lay the wood across? What do you call those? 412: Well you call them andirons or fire-dogs or something else, depending on what they were Interviewer: You, uh have any, uh, ever heard of any uh older pronunciations or any other names for those things? 412: Mm Not off hand Interviewer: Okay Uh, uh how about the the piece above your fireplace, there what your clock's sitting on 412: Well that's always been the mantle Interviewer: Okay Okay, now the, again I'm, these are the questions that are said 412: Yeah #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 If you ever, if you want to elaborate on any # 412: #1 Alright # Interviewer: #2 one of these, just stop and start # 412: #1 Alright # Interviewer: #2 Any in cut dialog you want # 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # Alright, uh, how about uh when you uh bring a, a piece of wood in to put in your fireplace? piece of wood about that long maybe that big around, what would you call that? 412: Well, likely if it was any size at all, as you say here, that'd be a stick of wood #1 Piece of wood, maybe would be smaller # Interviewer: #2 A stick of wood? # Okay What about, uh, uh 412: #1 A log, if a log got big enough, you might say, # Interviewer: #2 Uh # 412: "They'll put the log on, put that log on the fire." Interviewer: How, how big would a piece of would have to be to be a log? 412: Well, if it were cut from a whole tree you'd be inclined to call it a log even if it said wasn't any bigger than that Interviewer: Well, what is that, six, seven, eight inches? 412: Yeah uh Ordinarily, if you had split wood even if it was heavy You, you might not call it a log Interviewer: Just a piece of wood, or 412: Yeah #1 Now let's # Interviewer: #2 Now I've # 412: put that big piece on the fire Interviewer: Uh, um, the reason I'm curious about this is Mis- both mr Warret and mr Gallette, uh uh would not I couldn't get them to elicit, "log" 412: #1 Mm-hmm. Well, I # Interviewer: #2 Like, any large, even a large piece, they always said "piece of wood" # 412: have to say that in our family, I believe we thought of logs more often uh, because they were round and then just cut from the whole piece but if it were a tremendous thing, you might say "Well, put that log on" just because of it's size Interviewer: Ah hmm That's interesting What about, uh, what do you use to start a fire with, kinda what do you use to start a fire? 412: Well {NW} That's an interesting thought uh uh #1 You wanna take time to allow me # Interviewer: #2 Sure! # 412: Well When we were growing up my brother and I when we moved back from {D: Northern suburbs to} beehive, to the home place There were old lightwood and that's about the way we'd say it you, if you wanna be exact, you'd say "lightwood" Interviewer: Lightwood 412: Stumps These were the old dead stumps from the long leaf heart pine, and they were just as fat as could be still just as sound as a dollar Interviewer: What, excuse me, what do you mean by, uh fat, when you're talking about, you're talking about the sap in them? 412: Not sap #1 The very opposite of sap # Interviewer: #2 Oh the.. the # 412: #1 would be the rosin. Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 the ro- yeah, the hardened # 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Yeah, I'm sorry # 412: And it didn't take much you see, of that sort of kindling to start a fire Well, for fifty years I've been expecting all this to play out and that gets sort of comical to me, that and we still got a lot of lightwood and we keep some, here I'll show you, great big stump right out here we haven't even split it yet but we get so much third-class mail #1 That today I can take # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 412: the limbs, if, that's another oddity never thought of it as a boy I said to Sally here last winter wonder if a man had any size pecan grow All he had to do, to uh be ready for his fire in the morning was just save all his dead limbs which just fall off plus the paper waste paper that comes down through the mail every day and that that's about the way we built a fire Interviewer: {NW} 412: #1 And we'll save scrap # Interviewer: #2 So you # 412: #1 wood and half rotten wood # Interviewer: #2 Right # 412: No good for anything else, wanna get rid of it Alright, I never thought about, I guess there's probably enough paper around to #1 Oh, Lord # Interviewer: #2 Start any fire you need # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: It, it's amazing now of course we probably get more I know we get more than the average family but we don't get any more than I've {NS} seen a number of families in this community Interviewer: Hmm What now, now, if you've earned uh, say some oak or hickory some real good, hard 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Wood # Uh, uh What, what would you uh what would be the residue that would be left in the bottom, you know, after the fire went dead 412: Well it'd be ashes, whether it was pine, or oak or anything else Interviewer: Would there be any color differences in the ashes? 412: uh, yeah, I think you could distinguish it if you've lived around it there's a difference in the auxilliary: They got the tractor, I need to get the keys, said it's gonna work 412: Oh, yeah, that is Tommy, I believe, right in there It's uh you know it's that sort of, aluminum like I think that's it, isn't it? {NS} auxilliary: Think so 412: It's, it's a little short key auxilliary: I think this is it {NS} I don't know where you're gonna keep them {X} cuz you have after 412: Yeah, sure would, Billy, he didn't wait, did he? auxilliary: I'm gonna tell him to try, to fit, uh That's your lawn mower 412: Yeah auxilliary: #1 I think {NS} {X} # auxilliary: #2 I did get you {X} # auxilliary: #1 Of course I {X}, that's your size belt # auxilliary: #2 I didn't get it in # and this is your length 412: #1 Mm-hmm, {X} # auxilliary: #2 This one is, four {X} # Course that's That's a gates built 412: #1 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm # auxilliary: #2 they number them differently # Just got, see it takes two of them and one of these 412: Mm-hmm auxilliary: Just got them numbered if you, well you can get that belt cross {X} back to 412: Alright How much I owe you, Bill? auxilliary: Don't owe me nothing 412: Well, you had to pay for it! auxilliary: {X} {X} 412: {NW} {NS} auxilliary: {X} three twenty-nine 412: Yeah auxilliary: {X} four twenty-nine Want me to give you a discount up there? Letting me do your buying 412: I don't know whether it did not {D: Die} does but I, I'm not sure they do auxilliary: That's the best price, four twenty-nine cause {X} 412: Yeah auxilliary: about twenty-five percent {X} {X} {X} to {X} wood {NS} 412: {X} {B} This morning, she been trying to find somebody to let her have vegetables each week, she's been accustomed apparently, for a number of years, to have a regular person from whom she'd get vegetables {D: French is} ninety-seven worked with her closely together she and I were classmates Interviewer: Hmm 412: High school days We weren't going to sell her any vegetables, and I still don't intend to keep it up but she can't find a supplier so We finally agreed that after we'd sent her two weeks of vegetables that We'd let her pay something so she wouldn't feel too bad about it and that's what she paid us today She put in a dollar too much, Sally auxilliary: Well I bet she did! 412: Did, she put five dollars and forty-five cents auxilliary: She, she told me on the phone she says, I'm not gonna come and get them unless she let me pay 412: #1 then # auxilliary: #2 Yeah # I said, "Well, Frances, we just don't want you to," she said, "Well I won't get them then." 412: Well I, I tried to price them about half what they are at retail, but I said to Sally when she left this morning, I suspect that think she got would be, uh twelve to fifteen dollars, and I priced these two at four forty-five but she put in a dollar extra {NW} {NW} auxilliary: {X} 412: {NW} auxilliary: And everything is packaged in little cartons, you know, and covered with cellophane and the average person, like they're retired, and they're ill they don't want that many things at one time, they just want one or two and they won't sell them like that Interviewer: Yeah auxilliary: And a lot of people in Auburn that are elderly people, that are retired it seems to me like somebody would've thought of that and catered to those people 412: It does auxilliary: #1 Yeah, or something # Interviewer: #2 Like a fruit stand or something # 412: #1 Yeah # auxilliary: #2 Yeah, and you know, and and # 412: #1 Mm-hmm # auxilliary: #2 They could buy just the quantity they wanted # Instead of having to buy a prepackaged little carton Interviewer: Well, I get, I guess it's another way to charge a little more, you know it's 412: Yeah, I think it is Well you see for example this morning, trying to get ready, knew she was coming, of course and I finally concluded that the best way to give her some tomatoes was get three nice ones, give her one full ripe one half ripe, and one just tiny So that maybe this will last {X} next Saturday when she comes back again Interviewer: Ah yeah 412: And corn, of course, you got a dozen ears, well they'll eat one or two a day probably two if #1 they eat one a piece. Yeah # auxilliary: #2 And Amanda, {X} freezer # 412: #1 {D: Anna Banks} # auxilliary: #2 # Her husband has recently had heart surgery and other surgery too, and He was, he's real bad fixing to, now {X} can't eat anything but fresh vegetables cooked dinner uh Pyrex double boiler without any grooves in it #1 Mm # Interviewer: #2 And so that's why she likes these # auxilliary: special kind of vegetables, it's chicken {X} especially Interviewer: Huh That's uh uh, my uh, Grandmother had a gallbladder operation, she had to eat just totally bland food cooked like that for well she still got to 412: Mm-hmm Interviewer: And that could be very uh unpleasant, I guess 412: yeah yeah Interviewer: I don't mind this, at all, because 412: #1 {NW}, Alright, alright # Interviewer: #2 Because I'm gonna, this and running out here anyway, just gonna turn it over, yeah # Matter of fact, I think I might I don't know how much time we got, oh we got a little bit left uh see okay Uh, what do you call, what do you call this, uh, item over here the 412: You mean the chair? Interviewer: yes I'm just eliciting certain pronunciations 412: Well What'd you think I say, "chair?" Interviewer: Well I don't know Uh 412: Now this I may, I remember give you some uh dialect pronunciation from our Red Hill people as we go along if I think but {NS} mr Delaware {NS} would've said "chair" I believe, Sally Interviewer: Chair? 412: Chair Interviewer: chair {C: pronunciation} With kind of an A sound on it? 412: No, a double E Interviewer: Chair {C: pronunciation} auxilliary: #1 Like, chee # Interviewer: #2 Oh, chee # 412: #1 Chair # Interviewer: #2 Chair # 412: #1 chair # Interviewer: #2 chair # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # Oh What do you call, uh, this thing here? 412: #1 Oh I call it # Interviewer: #2 that I'm {X} # 412: Call it all sorts of things {NW} sofa, and sateen lounge {NW} Interviewer: What, uh 412: #1 When you see me stretched out, taking a nap, now that's a good lounge. # Interviewer: #2 What do... lounge # That's why I was about when, when we were at the museum, that that, uh, what you call a 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 sled, uh cow # 412: Sleigh bed Interviewer: Sleigh bed 412: Uh-huh auxilliary: Well the reason that's called a sleigh bed is {X} Interviewer: It's made to look like a sleigh auxilliary: {X} Interviewer: Wh- Would, would the older Would the older people call them anything else, the call this type of furniture, that type of furniture, anything else that you ever heard of? Yeah, there, there was a auxilliary: Called them {D: steptinis} or something 412: yeah #1 I believe it's still # auxilliary: #2 {X} # 412: #1 # auxilliary: #2 # 412: Yeah, uh, the couch That usually was an upholstered, like this is if it was a wicker I don't believe they call it couch Interviewer: What might it be called if it was a wicker? 412: They call it a settee perhaps And oh I think 412: I believe this is me right #1 here, that C-C # Interviewer: #2 C-C right # 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 That stands for Lee County? # 412: Yeah Interviewer: And uh, there's a 412: {NW} Interviewer: It's not, uh, is that basically the way Lee county looks? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Okay so there it is by counties And uh then they have, uh back here you have oh here's Lee then they have it numbered, too so That's how, if you're, you know 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 In case she's interested # 412: #1 Yeah, yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 {X} work we call those grids # uh Okay where'd we leave off oh okay 412: #1 Let me, let me mention # Interviewer: #2 Uh # 412: one other thing to you one of the pronunciations that always irritates me and uh strikes me very quickly whenever I hear it so many so-called educated people use it, and I'm sure I have some pronunciation that, uh strike other educated people irritably but people who say "think" Interviewer: Think or thank? 412: No, neither one "thank" and they're trying to say "think" Interviewer: Oh 412: The president of our company, a well-educated man and our friend all our lifetime, we traveled together worked together forty years he never did break himself of saying "thank" T-H-I-N-K Interviewer: Thank 412: Think That's the way they pronounce it but if you're gonna pronounce it correctly it'd be "think" Interviewer: Yes Think... yeah I can see your point 412: Another thing that uh Doesn't bother me, uh, it used to bother me, a little, think it's a matter of pride or something People dropping their G's Well that no longer bothers me at all but what does bother me is running your words together Whyncha {C: why don't you} Interviewer: whyncha 412: "Why don't you" Yeah that's, well, that's again that you meant the other day and I was here I mentioned I picked up a few bad habits up North and that's speaking a little bit faster that's #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 One of 'em # And I have a tendency to run words myself 412: Mm-hmm Interviewer: Uh 412: Doncha Interviewer: Doncha 412: Yeah Interviewer: Doncha... I think I say that a lot 412: {NW} Interviewer: I know I say 412: {NW} {NW} Interviewer: Okay How about a piece of furniture in a bedroom that has drawers in it and a place where you might put your clothes, what, what would you call that? 412: Uh, I think we'd call that anything from a dresser to chifforobe to a... Aux: chested drawer 412: chested drawers Well, and I believe No, it wouldn't either, chested drawers would be and sometimes uh a {D: chessay} it been on {X} chest like that long one I showed you down at the museum Interviewer: Yes 412: It was grandma Nun's uh Interviewer: And that's what she called it, just a chest? 412: Yeah, chested drawers, uh just a chest If it was made out of cedar you'd usually say, "cedar chest" Interviewer: Nice Now if, if it 412: A clothes chest #1 A quilt chest # Aux: #2 an old crest # 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 # 412: #1 # Aux: #2 We used to call 'em a {X} # 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Aux: #2 long time ago # 412: #1 # Aux: #2 # Interviewer: Now, is, is that the type where where, they they have a place, sometimes they have a place for shoes we put in the bottom, or uh 412: #1 Uh # Interviewer: #2 Were they just like a, a war- # 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 # 412: #1 Yeah I think that's right, Sally, I don't # Aux: #2 We have, we got two of those # 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 down there too # 412: #1 # Aux: #2 # 412: I don't believe I've ever seen a chest where they put shoes in it, Sally Not built that way Interviewer: What about one where, you know Where you might have drawers on this side and you have a um, a You know like a closet space on this side 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 Maybe a mirror with it too # 412: Well we got one got several in the house, yeah #1 I usually just call that a chifforobe # Interviewer: #2 Yeah do you # chifforobe? okay Um 412: What would, what would you call it? Aux: That's right... well now, you see those down at that museum and that one in that front {X} {X} {X} it has shelves on one side and it has 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Aux: #2 Hanging space on the other side # And the big one in the back The Joe, came from Joe's it has a hanging space and it has 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Aux: #2 Shelves, too # 412: #1 {NW} # Aux: #2 And in the bottom it probably # put shoes if you wanted and then, they didn't have closet space in the house 412: yeah #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 Like they do now, so they use these # 412: Come in! {NS} Did it run? Aux2: It, uh, don't {X} {X} Got along{X} {X} {X} 412: Yeah, yeah Aux2: It's just a little tight {X} 412: Uh-huh Aux2: {X} 412: Okey doke, well I sure do thank y'all Interviewer: okay What do you, what do you call uh uh those things that you pull down to keep the light from coming in your window? 412: You mean the shades? Interviewer: Yeah, you have any special names for those? 412: No I don't know of Interviewer: Okay uh 412: Now, you have draw curtains, and that sort of thing Interviewer: Yeah, but these are Aux: #1 He's talking about Venetian blinds, or, or shades # Interviewer: #2 that might be # Or maybe that might've been an older term word for a Aux: Shutters would be the only thing 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 they use to, uh # keep the light out 412: And that would be a usually a wooden door and affect a wooden window that you in the early days they didn't have even a uh door like that they they had no window and maybe no door they just closed it up Aux: No I'll be a {X} okay 412: {NW} Interviewer: Okay what would you call a little room off the kitchen where you might store your uh canned goods, or china, or something like is it just a little room that you walk into off the kitchen? 412: Well, goodness, I've heard a number of terms for that uh You might call it the storage room or you we used to speak of one room in houses back room Interviewer: Back room? 412: Mm Mama, this is where my brother and I slept when we were growing up but she would store fruit and a lot of other things in there it was a big room, really Now what else might we use Interviewer: Usually had a lot of, I guess, shelves and 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 cabinets and stuff in it # 412: Usually be shelves in it, yeah Man, I don't think of Interviewer: You ever heard of, um, maybe called a, a safe? 412: No no, that's an entirely different matter Interviewer: What would be a safe in your, uh 412: Well in, in the old days and this is when I was a boy {NW} You don't have safes anymore much Except {NS} #1 tax sheet money or your documents or something # Interviewer: #2 Yeah, right # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: The old safe, really, was a a wooden structure usually with um, a front tin perforated door Interviewer: Yes 412: Now they are a high price, now, if you can find 'em We haven't yet gotten a good one for The museum Interviewer: Now, one's that I've seen like that is when you put the bakery goods so they cool off, is that the same type of thing? 412: Mm No, this kind of safes that we had in this area were for putting all of your vegetables that you could Well you just didn't have any ice to keep 'em way back then you ate, either ate them up or you didn't keep 'em course there were certain things you could keep, sweet potatoes, let's say baked potatoes, or meats, or some kinds and condiments, or pickles, you could keep all those but you, you just didn't keep at the things it wouldn't take care of themselves, is is Sally may carry it over a weekend Interviewer: Yes 412: Well we ate it that day or we'd we didn't eat it at all if it had any danger botulism or to kill you siren Interviewer: Uh, what would you call a a lot of old worthless things that you that you were about to throw away that you just collecting together and you're gonna throw it all away at one time? 412: Well you might call it junk, you might call it trash {NW} that mess Interviewer: Yeah, you ever heard it called "plunder?" 412: Yeah yeah Interviewer: or uh, or uh, "clutch?" 412: #1 No, uh, no # Interviewer: #2 You ever heard that? Okay # How about, what would you call a room that you use to store, just store odds and ends now it doesn't have any specific use, just 412: Well now that might be the plunder room Interviewer: okay okay How about uh, uh uh, uh What do you use to sweep with to a floor way What do you call that? 412: Well We use various things you know I guess you're talking about a broom Interviewer: okay... Did uh, when you were uh young did you, uh uh, have brooms? 412: #1 Oh yeah, we # Interviewer: #2 Did you, did you make 'em or # 412: Some of 'em did Interviewer: How, how did you make 'em? 412: Brush brooms Interviewer: How were they made? 412: Well you'd usually get all alders down on a branch and uh You tie them together with a cord or some kind of a wire Interviewer: Now what you get, you get what What kind, what do you get on the branch? 412: Alders. A-L-D-E-R-S Interviewer: Alders? 412: This would be to sweep the backyard Interviewer: yes Aux: Now, you made the broom that you swept the house to the {X} {X} 412: Yeah when I was going to, you talking about the broom sedge Yeah I'm gonna come to that Aux: Did you show in one of those down at the museum? 412: No, I didn't Aux: That one of mine is down there 412: Well, uh Have you ever heard of broom sedge #1 Y'all tune in Florida # Interviewer: #2 Yeah, well yes sir I have # Mister Ward told me about it I just wanna see if you uh 412: Well goodness, everybody had Aux: Well I used to have one 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 {X} # 412: #1 {NW} # Aux: #2 And then uh # 412: #1 {NW} # Aux: #2 We {X} # We planted the {X} you see them long and limber there you can reach out {X} Interviewer: Was that, there what about that long? Aux: Oh, about longer than that Interviewer: What, four feet 412: You get that tall broom sedge Might be way up here real soon up long one but instead of some of that short you know it would be way down like that Interviewer: What about, anywhere from, what three and a half to five feet? 412: Yeah I'd say so Five, let's see I'm nearly six yeah, five would be about right, I'd say Interviewer: You ever find any seven or eight feet tall around here? 412: You mean broom sedge? Interviewer: Yeah 412: No, but I can take you back to that black belt and let you see whole pastures of it Interviewer: but, it's that tall? How does does it get how tall is you've ever seen it uh, get? 412: Well, the tallest I've ever seen is in the black belt Around Montgomery and out West of Montgomery anywhere in that black belt country Interviewer: How tall does it get down there? 412: I'd say We've seen it eight feet all right Goodness, it, it grows but our broom sedge simply doesn't grow that tall almost never, unless it's a very rich place Then it, broom sedge won't grow that long Interviewer: Yeah {NW} okay Uh, how about, now this is kind of a fill in the blank Is it like, uh women, uh, usually or some years ago, anyway, women usually did their what on Monday? 412: you meant their washing? Interviewer: Yes 412: Yeah Uh, that was common practice with Mama Interviewer: Was it fairly common? 412: That's what she used to do, what and Sally in the early days Still do it a good bit Aux: We still wash on Mondays 412: Yeah Interviewer: Uh Aux: If it permits Interviewer: The uh, after, uh After you do the washing and, uh, hanging 'em out to dry and everything like that uh and you got it going and uh and, what do you call that? 412: #1 Well, I iron a press # Interviewer: #2 when you {X} # 412: I don't know what else you'd Fold, someday you just fold 'em and lay 'em away Interviewer: Okay If a door is open and you don't want it that way, what might you tell someone to do with it? 412: Well, it'd depend on who it was and how you felt about 'em Interviewer: {NW} okay 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 If it was # 412: #1 but in any # Interviewer: #2 somebody # 412: case you'd say uh "How about shutting that door?" "Shut that door!" Interviewer: Okay 412: {NW} Interviewer: Okay 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 What do you # call it, the boards on the outside of the house that lap over each other? 412: Uh Yeah, I guess you talking about batting board and we used to have a another time for cabins that were built with your boards up and down and then strip like you're talking about I've tried several times lately to remember what we did say and I save my soul, I can't #1 recall it # Interviewer: #2 I think the one you're talking about now are vertical # 412: yeah Interviewer: Alright, and now what about the ones that are horizontal? You call those 412: #1 Well # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: We didn't use batting boards that way Interviewer: Okay, but you used batting boards vertically 412: We'd either use, uh sh- uh, s- uh Not ceiling, uh Well in modern times we used ship lap a good bit and uh, weather boarding, for goodness sake! Interviewer: okay Aux: Clap board, you need to call 'em 412: Yeah, clap boards would be applied a certain, that, that same technique on a certain clapboards we use on the roof but you could use clapboards on the side, you know {NW} Interviewer: o-o-on a roo- on a house that's kind of an L-shaped house, you know and, and the roof comes together What do you call a with the angle With the where the roof comes together, it's like that Do you have a name for that? 412: Um, yeah Used to have I don't think it's in the mind anymore Interviewer: Okay, how about valley, is that a 412: Yeah, valley is valley Interviewer: Yeah, would that be the right term 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 Do you think, that you might use? # 412: Yeah Interviewer: Okay um What would you call 412: #1 Now wait a minute, if you're talking about # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: uh, an L-shaped house it wouldn't necessarily be a valley uh Interviewer: Well you know, for just the two angles of the roof would meet with the, with the pitch of the two roofs would be 412: It's, it's sometimes to think would be tied in with a tin hip roof now this could be a hip roof just like this this also an A-roof Interviewer: Yeah 412: I think maybe hip roof would come near she was getting at I'm not sure of that #1 Now would a hip roof # Interviewer: #2 anymore # Now, in Flor- in Florida now, 412: Yeah Interviewer: we call a hip roof uh, similar to a hurricane roof which is uh, uh a roof that has four four sides, four surfaces to it and uh uh, in other words it's it's uh it has a normal pitch from left to right but it also has a pitch on both ends 412: Yeah, I know what you're talking about Papa {X} I both built houses like that uncle how it followed Papa But that's not the only time, the only place where we'd use the term "hip roof" Interviewer: Alright, now how would you use "hip roof" in that, now I'm not too sure about this now 412: Well I'm not sure either, uh in the sense that you're trying to clarify uh you'd say this man put a hip roof on his house uh I don't know any other way we'd use it Interviewer: Okay Uh what about, uh, a building that might be used for storing wood or tools, an outbuilding, what'd you call that? 412: Uh, well, you'd call it a number of things we say here, uh uh well, we don't usually say kindling house, it could be uh We never used it as a tool shed except the keys when we've stored wood in our tool shed but, don't anymore but this little, uh house we've got out here wood house Interviewer: okay 412: right there near well you haven't been out there, I don't think there right next to Jake's pen Interviewer: How about uh uh, what would you what would you used to call outdoor toilets what would you... name for that 412: Well back house for one thing Interviewer: Back house 412: Yeah And of course the old common term that they use, uh usually in public, uh uh TV and so on when these health people get to talking uh uh Aux: Privy 412: Yeah privy Interviewer: Now, wa-was there any, uh uh, uh terms like uh 412: #1 {X} # Interviewer: #2 you use # for joking, joking around, talking about it You know, in that, you know it's something 412: #1 Y-yeah # Interviewer: #2 that you might be talking about # 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 joke # 412: uh let's see I mentioned back house and outhouse then Sally mentioned privy uh, sure I don't even remember those anymore Interviewer: Okay um well you know, like "johnny" or something like that 412: Yeah, yeah johnny's a common term, mm-hmm Interviewer: mm-kay Do you, uh, think of the word "common" do you have a well, for example someone came out and said, "well he's a common person" would you put a, a certain type of moral judgment on that word? 412: It's, depending on uh setting, I would Interviewer: Yes 412: It might not mean that Interviewer: Right, yeah, uh 412: #1 If you say # Interviewer: #2 In other words # 412: uh "these are the common people" you wouldn't mean that at all Interviewer: Right, but if someone came up and said "he, oh he's just a common man" 412: #1 No, no # Interviewer: #2 Or "he's just a common person" # 412: You'd say, uh "he's common" or "she's common" Uh, I'm not gonna let my children run with bunch of Interviewer: So in that sense, there's kind of a, a value 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 placed on it # Okay 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Uh, this structure's called # A house, two of 'em would be called what? uh 412: #1 you mean two # Interviewer: #2 or three # two or, two or three of these 412: houses? Interviewer: right, okay 412: that's all I ever call 'em Interviewer: Okay, I'm just getting the plural 412: #1 Yeah {NW} # Interviewer: #2 I kinda think we got it # We were talking about a house earlier 412: Yeah Interviewer: See a lot of these are just 412: #1 uh-huh # Interviewer: #2 pronunciations, just literally # Um And and what uh, uh what's the big building behind a, a farm, where the hay's stored? and the cattle maybe and 412: Well we usually call it barn but it might be the hay house or the hay barn or could be other things Interviewer: Did you have one on your folks', uh place? 412: Had several Interviewer: okay did what uh, what were all the what, what might you put in, I mean, what all would you put in 'em I mean 412: Well Papa and um and a great many farmers all through this area when they got well enough off would build a barn with a hall in it I think this is what you would've found on most of better established farms In that case you'd usually put your mule or horse stables on one side of the alley and on the other side you might have a cotton-seed house a cotton house before the gin you'd usually have your corn room or corn crib part on the other side you might have a all the fertilizer and seed and your tool room all together and then above you'd have your a loft #1 for your hay # Interviewer: #2 loft? # 412: #1 but you # Interviewer: #2 Did you ever hear it called anything else? # besides a loft? 412: Oh, you'd say Look upstairs and see what you could find Interviewer: Yeah 412: You'd climb up the ladder that was in the hall #1 And that # Interviewer: #2 Have you ever heard # referred to as a "mow" or mow? 412: Sometimes, uh We didn't use that commonly Interviewer: Yeah, okay, I'm sorry Didn't mean to interrupt you I just 412: Now if you had hay in the field, you'd speak of a haystack Interviewer: okay How about, if you had if you had just a building that was exclusively used to store grain, what might you call that? 412: Uh, we solemn had it Interviewer: Okay 412: uh You, you might have um You know I don't remember that Well We never ha- you find it up in the mountains but we never had these uh bins where you'd put corn where we would wouldn't bother 'em you know you'd have snow or something else and you could what you, I think that was a lot in Illinois and Indiana and all through that one time, maybe it still is Interviewer: Right 412: We almost never did that uh I don't know that we'd have any special term for a grain house Interviewer: What about a 412: Now you might I, I think in the old days, uh you'd speak of your wheat bin, you'd try to make it tight, you know and maybe put a type of ceiling or something else that you could fit tightly together for you uh wheat room wheat bin or sometimes we used to store it in barrels Interviewer: barrel 412: yeah Interviewer: okay What, now if you took, uh some, some corn or something to a mill what, what might be the smallest 412: #1 You asked that question # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: #1 the other day when we # Interviewer: #2 the other day # 412: talking here #1 And I pretty well agreed we # Interviewer: #2 What was that # 412: I think we'd sell 'em go less than a peck and I think ordinarily we maybe go with as much as a bushel or more depending on what we wanted, see this wouldn't have been necessarily generally true Papa used to feed uh ground corn to his hogs we might feed chopped corn to a mule if the mule's teeth were bad so he might take a, might go in a wagon, take several bushels and we sell 'em uh, I sell 'em well I don't think James and I either one ever went horseback much, I've gone a few times with a bag of corn, you know, just over your shoulders, in the front part of the saddle I don't recall any other Interviewer: Do you, have you ever seen a building that might just have four poles and a sliding roof used to store, uh oh, maybe uh hay, or something like that? 412: Well hay racks, uh We use various types, uh curing racks, we use uh, tripods and you'll have, uh one set of poles going about so high so as to there wouldn't be any rotting and they'd be nailed on with heavy nails, to your tripod proper and then that would project out from the poles so that you'd build your hay rick on up to the top Interviewer: How about uh, um You ever heard that maybe called a "hay barrack?" 412: No Interviewer: okay, how about um uh when you first cut hay uh what, you mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I think uh, you need clarification when you first cut the hay, what do you do with it? When you very first cut it 412: You mean uh we let it dry and then windrow it, if that's what you're getting at Interviewer: Okay Or, or do you know any names for small piles of hay raked up in a field? outside a windrow? 412: #1 I don't remember any time # Interviewer: #2 Just maybe any {X} # 412: #1 when we, you might {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Oh # 412: {NW} if you just had a pile of grass, or sort of beans or cow peter or whatever you might say there's a pile, right over there you missed Interviewer: okay Alright, uh besides, uh, the barn did you ever have any special place where you'd milk a cow, maybe outside 412: Mm, well many barns and {NW} this is true of a great many through our area you might shed this whole barn in one section would be your milking part where you did, where you kept your cows in bad weather and then you might milk in there sometimes depending on the direction of your barn {NW} {NW} and the hive was um protected from the north, you might milk in the hall if you had a general cow, and then you had yourself protected and it was a cold morning, or a cold night Interviewer: Did you have any, uh hogs or pigs? 412: Oh yeah that's where I got my start Interviewer: Is that right? uh, where, where would you keep your hogs, pigs? 412: Well, we didn't keep 'em in pens uh like a great many did, not course we'd put 'em in pens usually to fatten but we ran them in the out pasture and um rotation fields that sort of thing Interviewer: how about uh uh, uh Where did people used to keep their milk and butter before the days of refrigeration, what might you call 412: in the well Interviewer: in the well? 412: Not the butter, but the milk Interviewer: okay, would you keep the butter separate? 412: uh, well Mama'd keep it as cool as she could I don't remember if she ever put butter in the well, Sally, but Aux: I don't... 412: That was Aux: {X} 412: that was a regular practice for your buttermilk you know put it in the northwest corner of the well Interviewer: northwest corner? 412: yeah #1 that's that was a coldish # Interviewer: #2 What # 412: #1 corner # Interviewer: #2 oh # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 Was that always the coldest corner? # 412: #1 Oh yeah # Interviewer: #2 Is it, is it really # 412: #1 Oh that was a saying, or so, which I think would # Interviewer: #2 Is that really the... oh # 412: That, that was where you'd put it You'd wanna big glass of buttermilk after a hard day's work right in the northwest corner of the well same thing for the water Interviewer: okay, what, what would you call a, uh, like like if you had a large enough herd, dairy, uh, uh cattle to produce, uh milk and butter and things, what would you uh would you have like a room, or place for processing it 412: it would depend on uh the nature of your customers and how large an operation you had, sort #1 dairy # Interviewer: #2 What would you call that? # 412: #1 huh? # Interviewer: #2 Excuse me # What would you call that place? 412: Well, "dairy" is as such well I'd say fairly late in coming in this area you had a family cow, you might have family cow and you'd sell butter, or you'd sell milk and butter to some of the neighbors but as um as a major uh item I don't think you'd have found it much Interviewer: okay 412: #1 Now # Interviewer: #2 this the # 412: I'm sure a good many farm wise uh who didn't sell any milk sold a lot of butter or you'd sometimes trade your butter we used to have peddlers all through this area Interviewer: Did, did large farms, this is, this is this is my own curiosity did large farms around here when they did sell a little extra butter, maybe they had a little extra butter they wanted to sell on the and they have, oh, maybe even as much as ten pounds they went over fifty pounds they wanna get rid of, I doubt they'd have that much, maybe so would they use their own personal farms, would they have a stamp made, uh a stamp 412: #1 Well this was # Interviewer: #2 make, make it into # 412: This was one of their trademarks Sally, we've got two or three of those molds, now haven't we? oh Sometimes you just buy a mold because it was available, but I'm sure uh people who sold a good bit of butter would soon be recognized by their by their mold Aux: top of the mold {X} 412: {NW} Aux: or other designs cut into the wood so when you pack the butter in that round mold it would leave that impression on Interviewer: Yes ma'am Aux: seen butter molded Interviewer: That's what I was asking about, now I know some farms, uh got to the practice, even if they didn't make a, a sale, on the you know, uh, practice 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 normally selling butter # of having um their own personal stamp 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 Maybe, it's their initials or # 412: #1 mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 or something in the butter, so people knew # 412: #1 yeah # Interviewer: #2 where it came from, if it tasted or if they were particularly proud of their butter, so # 412: Well you see in this area Sally, into the forties, I I don't remember when did that curd market start? Aux: {X} 412: Well anyway the curd market farmer's curd market gained a great standing over a period of years, now I couldn't say when it began, uh it died out after World War two This was where your a great many of your substantial farmers and your country minded uh, let's say town-minded people town dwelling people who loved country flavors and tastes would meet maybe two days a week or three days a week or whatever this was a curd market and {NW} {NW} {NW} {NW} {NW} You might take milk and butter chickens, eggs, or fresh vegetables fruits or whatever uh, sausage hams I don't think we ever saw sold raw beef, Sally fresh beef you'd pedal that out among your neighbors, you'd kill a beef and cut it up and then you'd put in your wagon and maybe you'd buggy and you'd just drive around among your neighbors {NW} sell it and then uh, maybe Next month, why We'd kill one and then we'd drive around and sell it to the neighbors Interviewer: So you had kind of a co-op type of 412: That is, an a informal co-op, that's what it amounted to Interviewer: That's interesting 412: {NW} Interviewer: uh, um Does the word "dairy" have any other connotation at all to you, does does it mean anything else? besides, uh 412: Well it, it meant, um large operations too and that sort That's about all I'd say Interviewer: Okay Uh, what would you call a place where you where you let your cattle uh go, uh, graze? 412: Well Ordinarily, uh in this area we spoke of a pasture but sometimes we often said, and this was used in emotion among agricultural workers and leadership define a pasture, you know, as a piece of land with a barbed wire fence around it Interviewer: That's a definition of a, sort of a formal 412: Uh, type pastures we once had that was when it you weren't really trying to feed your animals or take care of 'em just a place you implied is derogatory Interviewer: I was just curious now, uh, uh how big does a piece of land have to be before it's uh well let's put it this way you you grow you grow cotton out in a in a in a what 412: Yeah Interviewer: What do what do you call the area place that you grow cotton? 412: Well, it's usually a field Interviewer: Okay now how Might be a patch Okay now how, what's the what's the size difference between a field or a patch? 412: I think it would vary with individual and it probably would vary some from area to area for example back up here in the red land, where you sell a family a big field to them uh, a, well I better say it this way what was a field to them might be a patch for us down here in the sandy land and what would be a field to us might not be a field at all to a man way down in the black belt up in that black Illinois country Interviewer: Would it, would it then it depends on it uh, on each individual person's nature of, uh, size Is it 412: Well uh, yeah, surroundings and way he operated maybe all his life Interviewer: What what kind of things might you you consider, what would you call uh consider things grown in a patch? 412: Well, you know we talked about that the other day You could speak of a sugar cane patch but it might be right down next to the branch and in the same field there would be corn but you'd put the corn up high on a slope, you'd put the cane right down on the flat, next to branch, or the creek maybe uh We'd grow a patch of watermelons, maybe a few rows of cantaloupe or a row of cantaloupe you might have a pea patch uh most of our cotton was cotton patches almost at one time in the old one horse days Interviewer: How big would that be now, a one-horse cotton patch? 412: #1 Well, um # Interviewer: #2 Like would it be an acre or two? # 412: Usually, a one-horse farmer wouldn't try to have more than ten acres of cotton and he might have that in Well, one or two or three spots three or four acres maybe in this patch here and then another two or three acres and then another #1 put a patch somewhere # Interviewer: #2 But a... if # if all those patches happen to be together it's all a big ten acres then I just thought it might be a field 412: Well there are plenty of areas through here that if a man had ten acres that was a field Interviewer: Right, okay 412: #1 and # Interviewer: #2 How about if # excuse me, go ahead 412: And, and I could take in uh, very far from here, where he, maybe he'd even have to have nearly fifty, a hundred acres to think he had a field #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 That's for Texas, maybe, like if you get to # Well, I was at a farm out in Kansas in a man's farm, in twenty-five hundred acres 412: Yeah Interviewer: Now, he doesn't consider it a field unless it's over fifty acres 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 Or a hundred or something! # You know, he still talks about fifty, sixty, seventy acres like "we got a patch of land over here, patch of land over here" and that's It has more than most people would wanna even look in 412: Well, way out in west Texas, uh We had a friend years ago, a man who'd come from the very bottom to a multimillionaire father was a tenant farmer and he used to say that it took more land for his tractors to turn around on than his father cultivated and he just for a stunt, of course would sometimes put on a demonstration of a eight, I believe it was eight tractors with only one man at each end directing them he had four controls or other similar controls and these rows would be I believe about up to about a mile and a half long Interviewer: It could get monotonous if he's riding it 412: Well {NW} You wouldn't be riding, you see, you'd be at the end of the field and you'd saw this Number seven tractor coming and you'd be prepared to get on it Turn you around #1 and then it's laying # Interviewer: #2 Oh I see! # 412: And then you put it the other end Yeah, your other buddy might be turning around number one on his end, and then starting in the back Interviewer: Well that's, uh, I've never even seen, I've never heard of that! 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Is that a fairly common practice? # in the, on large farms? 412: Uh, I would suspect that that was a prototype of what maybe they've done even more dramatically today But, to us, that was phenomenal, you know Interviewer: Uh, that's almost, that's almost like going to the moon 412: Yeah Two men driving eight tractors {NW} Interviewer: Uh, what kind of a, uh fences might you have around bar, uh around a house? Around a farmhouse? 412: Uh, it would vary. In the, in the old days and you see I was born in the last period of that age you quite often would have rail fences Interviewer: Spikes, split, split rails? 412: yeah I'll show you some chestnut rails before you leave, right out here My cousin, Johnny Adams and I uh, he discovered and then he and I dug 'em up in the bottom of a stream up the road here, several miles about six feet in the ground laid crossway Interviewer: When they were already there, they were still intact, good? I mean, uh 412: #1 You, you've seen 'em when you look at 'em # Interviewer: #2 Well # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: Course chestnut's a last, long lasting wood #1 And what was, what was the other part you asked? # Interviewer: #2 Oh I was just curious # what kind of fences might you find around a 412: #1 Well, of course, uh # Interviewer: #2 a, a farmhouse # 412: every home of any consequence in this area in those days had around his home a white paling fence, or the equivalent Interviewer: a white paling? 412: Paling #1 P-A-L-I-N-G. Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Is that the vertical kind? Like # Like, uh, what might be another name for 412: yeah Or you might cut one-by-one inch, uh pieces and then saw 'em the right length some of 'em had those some of 'em had ornamented paling is it might put a little, uh, design in the top of the paling some would put, uh, uh sharp point, like that, that's like we got down yonder at the museum now Interviewer: Right 412: You find all sorts of combinations but you had to uh, the law was exactly the opposite of what it is today today, you must be responsible for what your stray animals do to your neighbor, or to your next neighbor but in those days, uh this is open range country and you protected your fields in your house, and yo- and your yards and all Interviewer: Alright, um {NW} Did you ever raise, well, we talked a bit course, I guess you raised cotton did you ever work, in a, in a cotton field? 412: #1 Oh no, gee # Interviewer: #2 yourself? # What was what were {NW}, what were some of the things you did? 412: Everything must be done under the old system Now, we never dropped cotton seed by hand but it hadn't been a, been a many years removed uh When they were dropping cotton seed by hand and putting down fertilizer in a funnel, I I'm sure you never saw one of those funnels Interviewer: Not a fertilizer funnel, no sir 412: Well we were still using those when I was a boy Interviewer: how did the fertilizer funnel work? 412: Well ain't nothing in the world but a great long cylinder, about got one down yonder at the museum luckily we found one bout that round uh size #1 and about # Interviewer: #2 above three {X} # 412: Yeah, I guess, some of the horns were, you call 'em get out a horn about so long and then #1 here at the top you'd have a # Interviewer: #2 About four feet # 412: a convex funnel Interviewer: okay 412: to catch it, and uh, you'd uh drop your seed or sometimes you, you just had a kind of a bagging sack of manure and you spread the manure down the row and take it out of your bag here and down through the funnel into the {D: fur} #1 {NW} {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Did you catch a {X} was it mounted on wheels? # 412: #1 No it wasn't mounted on anything, you held it # Interviewer: #2 you held it # You drop it, and that's so you wouldn't hit the bin 412: yeah Interviewer: oh I see 412: yeah Interviewer: Okay Did you ever- 412: Now, we would we were out of that era already uh if we spread manure anytime after I was big enough to remember we'd use a hollowed out wagon and spread it with pitchforks but it hadn't been many years, uh I've made specific efforts to find out the earliest that we had any kind of, uh mechanical cotton seed planter in this area and as far as I can find out and we got, uh a later, improved type of what apparently the originals were about eighteen ninety-four is the earliest period when we didn't plant cotton by hand there must've been some good farmers who were also good mechanics or good designers, and they went to blacksmith and had some sort of tool made We got one very simple uh dropper really didn't sold us, really a dropper It was designed simply to put on your ply-stocking plant but even so this as far as I can find out so far, doesn't go back much farther than about eighteen ninety-four, ninety-three Interviewer: Mm 412: One one of our long-time friends who died about three years ago, already, two years ago when she was in her nineties told me that she remembered when her father bought the first, what we call dow-law planter Interviewer: Uh, what was that again? 412: Dow-law. D-O-W dash L A W must of been the name of the two men chiefly concerned with the company that's what they all call it, dow-law planter and she said people came from eight or ten miles all in this area to see mr John's new planter they live right below us on the home place about two miles from and she said people heard about it and just came from all around just to see what it was like Interviewer: hmm 412: Well today, you see {NW} Bill plants, uh four rows With his tractor, outfit he puts down the fertilizer, he puts down his chemical he puts down his uh seed and he may put another chemical on top after the planter the tools have covered the seed Interviewer: All at once? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Hmm 412: one man on the tractor #1 Course you # Interviewer: #2 That's quite an operation # 412: you got to have one or more men at the turnaround to keep it busy, fill up with fertilizer chemicals, and so, and seeds Interviewer: Yes sir uh, uh, what do you call uh hoeing uh cotton 412: Hoeing? Interviewer: Yeah, when you're out there hoeing cotton, what do you call that? 412: Hoeing Interviewer: In between, you know, do you ever call it anything else? 412: well, you might be bunching #1 You might be thinning it # Interviewer: #2 Yeah with a hoe? # Thinning 412: bunching and thinning are somewhat similar in meaning, not quite Interviewer: Okay 412: If you had, if you had an extra good you might say, "blocking out" we'd sometimes use that uh Interviewer: What kind of undesirable grass uh, or, uh would you have or what would you call undesirable grass 412: #1 Oh Lord # Interviewer: #2 Grass or grasses over there # 412: #1 Don't start me on that one # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # Can you just get a couple of 'em? 412: I, well I I'd say, in the old days, um probably crabgrass, now now I'm talking now just about our area this wouldn't even apply necessarily to the red land Interviewer: right 412: {NW} but Interviewer: Yes sir 412: In our sandy land here we'd have uh crabgrass coffee weed uh, cocklebur and I never have been, uh stuffy enough to say "cocklebur" I still say cocklebur {C: pronunciation cock-uh-bur} uh Parsley or {D: parslin} as it's usually spelled in the botany books uh We did not have pigweed, either smooth or prickly uh, we didn't have many of the weeds that you have now uh for example, right in this garden here nut grass had been given, we didn't have nut grass in the old day, and Bill has a problem, he's he's about to line a combination of techniques that looks like it'll get rid of it for years but you have to plant corn on the same land for a year course there's nothing else that will stand the chemical that he used but he's virtually eradicated uh nut grass by that method, just yesterday at noon, when I told you we made this big circle to have a look at his crop in general he showed me a big field of soybeans that a cousin of mine planted and the boy's not energetic, he got sins kind of lazy and he had just let nut grass run away with soybeans Bill and I were figuring if he could ever get out, and we don't believe he can we don't see a chance for him to even break even it just can't, it's just eaten up with nut grass and he just didn't go in there at the proper time Interviewer: you gotta watch out for the soybeans 412: mm yeah Interviewer: soybeans, uh really can 412: #1 Yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 well they're delicate for a while # 412: yeah Interviewer: Okay, uh, uh now, I don't know if you had this problem around here but uh, now if you had a field that's full of stones okay, and some farmers might take the stones and pile 'em alongside a field and make 'em a fence with 'em, what might you call that fence, if uh 412: Well we didn't talk about the fence so much but uh We had this, this was nothing unusual up here in the red lands and they'd usually, uh well, this house was built out of stones that were picked up in the fields, and used to build bench terraces if you know what bench terraces are Interviewer: Now a Now, is now a bench terrace, now is that alongside a field? 412: No no, {NW} no {NS} you know the, the type terrace that we tried to build today is one that has a say this is down here on this side this of course would be lower than this and this would be higher if you do a good enough job and don't have a flood to slowly direct the water in whatever direction you want it to go #1 keep it # Interviewer: #2 like, uh # keep it from making a 412: Swiggling across a field and just eroding it well uh What is it I wanted to tell you Interviewer: About the terrace 412: Yeah the indication, the bench terrace Let's say you have, let me see if I can make you one here's your upper slope now and it's a pretty steep slope and it doesn't take much hunting to find five to seven percent slopes right across the creek over here soggy hatchet they tried, and and still do and and today with all the equipment we got you can do a good job they would build the type terraces also that we uh that we have been building here, for many gener- well, three generations four generations we started at grandpa but then you'd you know you got to have, a a a step-down somehow and and they would take the rocks, let's say and they would start making a pile about the line that they figured the terrace ought to run Well eventually, you see maybe this stone uh line here maybe several levels Would, in the beginning, it would be, let's say, uh well, maybe about his high above this part here but over a period of time, the sheet erosion from this level to here would fill that in and eventually you'd have a terrace that just stood up like this and then it dropped down sharp and then it level off again, I mean then start sloping again, then you'd have another bench terrace Interviewer: The soil will actually fill in next to the wall? 412: Yeah, yeah Interviewer: okay 412: #1 And # Interviewer: #2 mr Ward was # Telling me about that, he he, now he'd call 'em uh, a step-bench fence but I think he was referring to the uh those terrace things that you 412: #1 uh-huh # Interviewer: #2 were talking about, he said # said he'd make a step-bench fence along a field 412: yeah Interviewer: and is that, is that the same thing? 412: I never heard that term, but that sounds like maybe he that's what he told me Interviewer: Yeah, yeah 412: uh eventually you see, you'd have a, a hole and it's larger in this land than the piedmont, some was cleared that never should've been cleared, anyway but eventually, if a man was a pretty good farmer and he was really trying to save his land, he'd have a whole field maybe ten acres or might have more than that sometimes well you'd come to here, come from come down this slope here was a level area we'll say ten feet wide or some other width and then you'd stop sharp down where the old terrace part was and then here'd be another level and literally it's um it's the same technique that these uh fifth Cole boys are being told to do now, you know you #1 One plateau down to another # Interviewer: #2 sure, right # 412: #1 and you get # Interviewer: #2 what # I understood the terracing part, I just never understood this that you putting the wall up and 412: #1 yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 and the wash up to it # 412: well well we got mostly is rock {NW} we'll pile around these terrace contours and uh over the generation, and this was already in pines when we hauled 'em out we took a mattock, a pick, and sometimes a shovel we just go around those terraces and we pick out of the dirt pull the rocks out and if it looked like it was sound they went in the truck, we wore a truck out building this house second an intro, not an old, not a new one {NW} {NW} and we got enough rock from a series of terraces about three mile I guess, out here let's see here three mile would be about right build this house and we had everything we've got um We've got one little here over this door I think, though, we got that out of the bottom of a stream but it took a block and tackle to put that in place over the door, we got one huge rock on this east side above the window took uh I believe it was five hours to put it in place and we've got some very large rocks over on this side we put in that way Interviewer: So this whole house was built from uh almost step-bench terracing 412: Yeah #1 Oh yeah # Interviewer: #2 stone # 412: #1 See this was done in # Interviewer: #2 well that's that's # 412: slavery days the, the fields, and land was originally entries and uh the rocks were there then and as they began to farm it the rocks began to work to the surface and like the old saying in New england, you know "rocks just nationally grow" Interviewer: {NW} 412: and that's almost true when you start dealing with that type of land Interviewer: Okay, uh Now when you put up a barbed wire fence, you mentioned that a little bit earlier 412: yeah Interviewer: um, uh you have to dig a hole to put the uh 412: post in Interviewer: alright, and two or three of those are called 412: #1 two or three # Interviewer: #2 if you have # 412: wires? Interviewer: No, the, the post, if you have two or three posts how, what do you, what's the plural of post, in other words? 412: Well, we just said "posts" Interviewer: okay, for more than one? 412: yeah Interviewer: okay 412: yeah Interviewer: and uh, if you wanted to make a hen start laying okay you might put something under her to fool her? 412: #1 Oh yeah you talking # Interviewer: #2 what would you call that? # 412: about an old nest egg? Interviewer: yeah what might that be made out of? 412: well all we ever got in this area were made out of, uh hmm, what do we call that stuff the shiny white Interviewer: Well, it would be the same stuff that dishes, the real fine dishes are made out of? 412: I think it was similar, uh but it wasn't near that uh thick Interviewer: it well, you know like a, like a real fine dishes are called what? I'm trying to elicit a word here, so the big co- the big country with all the orientals 412: oh you talking about like the English, uh manufacturers? Interviewer: of, uh, of this type of 412: #1 yeah # Interviewer: #2 dishes # 412: #1 oh # Interviewer: #2 what do you call that dish ware? # 412: you got me again, I wouldn't I know what you're talking about but Interviewer: Alright, we got, we got the Soviet Union and the red and the other one, the other big one 412: What are you talking about, China? #1 Well # Interviewer: #2 Okay, that's the word I was looking for # 412: #1 Yeah, what # Interviewer: #2 Would, would you ever have a china egg? # 412: We did say china egg some, too Interviewer: okay uh The only reason I have to go surreptitiously around to get these 412: #1 yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 words, I try not to influence your pronunciation before you say it # Um and, and you mentioned earlier that you kept your uh milk products in the well 412: If you didn't have any sort of refrigeration, or see a good many people had uh springs and they could put do the same thing in the springs Interviewer: what would you, what would you keep your milk, uh Or, let's put this what would you get your water out of the well with? 412: Well, we use several Papa, all my lifetime, had a Windlass and a bucket but Interviewer: Was it a, uh what was the bucket made out of? 412: It was usually galvanized bucket, but the old oaken bucket was still in uh very much in the public eye long after I was born and we, we also had eaten and we still got 'em least I know where there is one unless it's been You ever seen a well sweep? Interviewer: No sir, what's that? 412: It's a, it's a pivoting type of thing you have a great long uh arm and it's simply a pole it's balanced at the right tilting uh edge tilting point Interviewer: The fulcrum? 412: #1 Yeah yeah # Interviewer: #2 Is that what you were # 412: and you just simply let the bucket down, you push your pole up, you know, and and then the bucket, uh gets full, and then you pull that and the pole helps to pull the bucket up #1 So # Interviewer: #2 Oh I see # It's like a lever 412: yeah yeah so you don't put, uh all of your effort into bringing it up You got to work it both ways, you got to put some effort into pushing your sweep up and then the sweep helps you to lessen your effort pulling the water up Interviewer: hmm Now if you- 412: #1 Now also, uh # Interviewer: #2 took a # 412: A great many people, and we used it some too especially something having to work uh, we'd call a windlass you'd have a swivel windlass they built two types usually one with a small wheel, this is when you had a a, a regular windlass the ones we used would be about so round but sometimes, uh if you just had a rope and a bucket and the windlass only you might get one about so big and this made it easy to pull it in, you see cuz it, it rolled in more slowly Interviewer: yes Uh, if you, if you carried water in a bucket what might you use to carry milk in? 412: We might say 'pail' but we'd usually say bucket Interviewer: Okay and if the, if the pail, or the bucket, if it was you said it was galvanized, mainly? 412: yeah Interviewer: if it, if it got so dirty that you wouldn't wanna use it for humans what what, and you use it to feed your hog, what would you call that? 412: We might call it a slop bucket Interviewer: okay 412: Its own thing, i don't know Interviewer: And uh Getting a little ahead of myself here the uh um the, the the uh utensil in the kitchen used for, to fry eggs in the morning, what would you call that? 412: you mean the spider? Interviewer: Again, please? 412: The spider? Interviewer: Spider? 412: mm-hmm Interviewer: Is that the, now 412: #1 Usually, what # Interviewer: #2 Would you, would you fry chicken in that too? # 412: #1 Well, uh # Interviewer: #2 Would that maybe # 412: uh Spider, usually, i believe was probably more often for cooktop cornbread, uh corn pone uh, you probably talking about a or a regular iron {NW} shoot I can't even think of the {NW} term now uh it it was a frying pan, but we didn't call it a frying pan Sally Aux: This is a question you usually 412: Nah, yeah, that's a spider Interviewer: That's a spider? 412: #1 But- what- # Interviewer: #2 It's like, it's like a frying pan without the sides # 412: What we call a deep one that you cook eggs in Aux: Oh, just a skillet 412: Skillet! Interviewer: Skillet. 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Okay # 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 Now that's what you cook # Little pones of bread, like that, little flat corn pones Interviewer: Yes Aux: #1 And you put 'em all around that # Interviewer: #2 Yes ma'am # Aux: and then you they have a little grease on it top and you get the imprint of your fingers on and they real crusty Interviewer: Crusty? Aux: That's what we used to do but that little skillet I got now, the modern one that I cook the little triangles in, that's something new Interviewer: That's who Aux: and uh it, it, they had just come out with that somebody in Birmingham Interviewer: Uh 412: Show him one, Sally! Interviewer: That's called a spider? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Okay, speaking of corn um 412: Now there's uh, there's one other kitchen item maybe not for me #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Oh, I see # Aux: See now this is When he uh Interviewer: They look like a pie has been divided Aux: Except for, and this is the little one we bake in, most of the time, this is the size, it makes seven pieces and he's out working with his cu- and he said well I'll be there going and they sorta laughed at {X} 412: #1 Mm-hmm yeah # Aux: #2 {X} # And it just sold like hotcakes then they came out with this little {X} 412: That's that's the kind you had at #1 Yeah, these little bitty # Aux: #2 At {X} # #1 See then you, you # Interviewer: #2 But # Aux: Bread is crusty, all on the sides #1 Now, uh-huh, and the bottom # Interviewer: #2 And top too # Aux: But that, they bake real good Interviewer: And you used to bake in, you ever do anything on the top of the stove with them? Aux: No, uh-uh, now, we have a granddaughter that's interested in foods, and she uses this to bake little cakes for you then Interviewer: Oh Aux: And, and she never uses {NS} it to make cornbread, she {NS} uses more than this to do cake in but I never have tried that Interviewer: so you do like, cupcakes Aux: #1 I # Interviewer: #2 Like # Aux: I get, I do 412: #1 Well # Aux: #2 more # 412: #1 Now the old, the muffin ring # Aux: #2 Well I'll show 'em # 412: Is more {X}, especially for made cupcakes here {NS} Interviewer: um I was just uh, since we were Talking about, there was a a section in here on on uh cornbread, I'm just gonna uh, uh, what's all the different types of breads that you can think of that are made from cornmeal? 412: Well uh through this area muffins, and uh #1 Corn sticks, yeah # Aux: #2 Now this, this belonged to your grandma # 412: Yeah #1 That's for muffins, you see # Aux: #2 that's heavy, it's for muffins # 412: #1 You could cook cake muffins # Aux: #2 and you could # 412: #1 And sally could # Aux: #2 You could make, yeah I have made cake muffins in it # And they make the prettiest little muffins and Interviewer: Well that is heavy Aux: it is heavy, that #1 That, that's granddaddy's grandmother # Interviewer: #2 that's cast # Aux: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # Aux: And um, I hadn't used it in a long time between the barber and kids Interviewer: It just looks like a Well actually looks like, so like a the modern, uh, looks like a 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 Modern Jello mold type of thing # 412: Mm. Well you could make uh, muffins, corn sticks corn- Aux: stick pan 412: yeah corn dodgers that's one thing I hope Sally'll never make Interviewer: Oh, yeah Aux: That corn stick- 412: #1 Mama's, yeah # Interviewer: #2 dodgers? # 412: Mama would make corn dodgers #1 and turnip greens # Aux: #2 Well I won't make that thing # 412: #1 No, just don't # Aux: #2 {X} {X} # 412: and then uh uh Egg bread, have you ever eaten egg bread? Interviewer: No I haven't {NS} 412: Well This is where you put, I don't know how many eggs put in it, but it has a little bit of different consistency Interviewer: What, uh 412: and then cornbread of course many types of cornbread Interviewer: {NS} okay Uh, uh uh 412: Are you familiar with dutch oven? Interviewer: With a, with a dutch oven? 412: Yeah Interviewer: in the side of a fireplace? 412: Yeah Interviewer: Yes sir 412: Yeah, well Interviewer: alright now, is that where you used to 412: #1 Well, when # Interviewer: #2 to bake your, uh # 412: When we came back to the farm in nineteen sixteen Papa and I would bet you over there and he uses dutch oven a lot, then to cook the bread or I imagine the baked potatoes perhaps other things Interviewer: Well suppose you have, uh, uh the type of cornbread that just has nothing but cornmeal, salt, and water, what would you call that? 412: Well Sally we don't we, that's what we have, isn't it? Aux: Uh, that, that's what the dockeys called a hoecake because it was baked at one time on a hoe Interviewer: on a hoe? Aux: On a hoe. Interviewer: As a chopping hoe? Aux: a chopping hoe, a flat hoe it has a hole back here where the handle is Interviewer: Alright Aux: and they made the fire, and they said that they put the whole cake, the water and the meal I think the Confederate soldiers 412: #1 I'm sure they did # Aux: #2 baked 'em # 412: #1 Yeah # Aux: #2 on the, on this hoe # 412: #1 # Aux: #2 and they just set it on the fire and that's why it got its name, hoecake # Interviewer: I'll be doggone I heard uh uh, uh Mister Ward talk about a hoecake and I and I so did mr Gallette but I never thought I just thought that was a Aux: No, no, that's where it uh the {X} Interviewer: {NW} 412: See you could cook that on a spider too #1 Yeah, yeah, yeah # Interviewer: #2 On a spider, yeah on one of those little flat pans # What about, um Uh, how about do you ever remember any kind of cornbread that people talked about uh, just sitting on a board in front of a fireplace You ever heard of any cornbread being made like that? Now the hoecake's something like that 412: #1 Uh, on a board # Interviewer: #2 Uh, you know # Yeah, but this would just be like on a board, in front of fireplace 412: No, I sure haven't Interviewer: Okay How about uh, uh, or or the type that just might be laid in the ashes? 412: #1 Like what? # Interviewer: #2 For any kind # That type of cornbread that might just they might put it in the ashes of a fire 412: Yeah yeah that was well I don't remember the day I ever cooked Mama Papa ever cooked in the ashes but we'd cook potatoes in the ashes sweet potatoes Interviewer: Alright Uh, uh, let me see, are there any, you say what kind of a, a corn bread or, it's about an inch thick and it's large and round, you might cook it in a skillet uh, like on the top of the stove 412: Well I suspected If you got a group together, it'd be a lot of wrangling on that one cuz most of our people who are advertising cornmeal for cornbread and are selling, I'm noticing, remarkably they talking about all this, uh big old thick Corn or bread and I wouldn't have it on bed Interviewer: What about the type that's a mush? uh, what do you call that? 412: Well Mama never cooked it much, and I think Sally cooked it a little, and she never cooked it much, maybe when the children were small call it mush Interviewer: Just mush? 412: yeah Interviewer: Uh, you ever heard of any kind that might've been put in a cheesecloth, and dipped down in a frying grease? you ever heard of anything like that? 412: Sally you ever heard of a corn item like that? Aux: Uh-uh 412: that's brand new to me Interviewer: Okay, that's that might be a little, a little too How about uh, um Oh, what do you call it, the type that you put a little onion and pepper, uh pepper, green pepper maybe and eat it with fish? 412: Well Um, the, the people in Florida have a, a name for that I guess and we use it little bit and I don't even remember the name now uh Interviewer: You got shoes named after it 412: what? Interviewer: Like the little suede shoes named after 'em 412: oh The way we get 'em hear about that like that Interviewer: Yeah 412: I don't even remember the name Interviewer: Would you call them a hush puppy? 412: yeah #1 It's a branch {X} # Interviewer: #2 is that, okay # I was just curious, you ever, you know what a muck farm is? 412: Muck farm? Interviewer: yes 412: I know what it is in Florida Interviewer: no, they don't have any here? 412: No Interviewer: Down around the the, coastal regions or anything? 412: We may have some down around Mobile uh, in that swamp country Interviewer: okay 412: But there's no such thing up in here Interviewer: okay thank you 412: Usually Well if you had looked closely at at that, uh Spring we're digging out down there at the museum with me this morning you might have seen a something that would indicate what you talking about but most of our black lands long branches and uh small streams there the string usually is deep enough it keeps from dry- Interviewer: As consistent as possible, all tapes should be the same Auxilliary: Yeah Interviewer: And you notice, this is a, not a stereo Auxilliary: uh-huh Interviewer: See, so uh thank you very much Auxilliary: This lady has taken, uh state of Alabama, she is an Alabamian and she has a gone to {X} on the coast and she takes in the recipes of the shrimp boats that sort of thing, then she goes up the coast, she comes on up into Alabama she's got four sections the next section is the wiregrass section That's standing around dover Interviewer: mm-hmm Auxilliary: then she comes on up to coastal plains, and that's where we live Interviewer: coastal plains? You found a lot of recipes there, that you knew? Auxilliary: No, well, there's some that I know {X} she uh yeah {X} said she goes to the Tennessee valley or some of 'em I know basic things that you know anyway once you've cooked as long as I have And then the Appalachian area and the... but it's real interesting yeah, I knew I wrote that thing down somewhere And I've been looking everywhere for it and there it is Interviewer: Have you ever made crackling bread? {NW} 412: That is good eating, but it sure is bad for you Interviewer: Well, how do you mean is it 412: #1 So greasy # Interviewer: #2 bad? Is it greasy # Auxilliary: of course {X} little crunchy pieces of that fat lard is to come out of, and it's crisp you have those over there and it's good 412: It sure is Interviewer: I mean how, how do you make that again? Auxilliary: You put bread meal in water, salt in the cracklings 412: And then, {X}, but the adding of the cracklings Auxilliary: that's all just add the crack- 412: to a common cornbread mix Interviewer: is it, uh, now it's baked? 412: #1 Yeah # Auxilliary: #2 {X} # your cornbread. And its crunchy and real rich especially with all that fat crackling Interviewer: What, what might you eat with that? Auxilliary: oh, turnip greens, peas, any kind of vegetables Interviewer: And uh, you wouldn't like eat uh What, well, like maybe a can of beans, or something like that with it? Auxilliary: Yeah, you, that would be good! Interviewer: yeah 412: hmm Auxilliary: Well it'd be real good Interviewer: cuz it all has that kind of {NW} Auxilliary: Yup. All real fat in it {NW} Interviewer: okay uh, uh, what would you call a, a big black pot that you might boil clothes in or something 412: call it a pot, wash pot Interviewer: just a wash pot? 412: mm-hmm Interviewer: okay, how about uh uh, something that you might heat water pour, you know it has a a little spout on it and you heat water in it maybe a fireplace, or something, you have any special names for 412: well, I guess you're talking about the old black kettle Interviewer: okay 412: {NW} Interviewer: okay and uh, uh old, like that orange thing on the top of your television there where you put your flowers, what do you call that? 412: call it a vase Interviewer: vase 412: then we call it a vase Interviewer: {NW} okay You can see what we're 412: {NW} Interviewer: All right, what what, uh eating utensils would you find on a table? 412: you talking about the silverware and sort? Interviewer: Yes sir 412: Well Knife, fork, spoons, then sugar spoon maybe, uh Auxilliary: butter knife 412: your butter knife and the dessert spoon or uh or got one right in there right now grapefruit spoon and large dinner spoons for peas, serving that #1 oh but # Interviewer: #2 You mean # But on the, on the older farms where they might just have what just, two or three 412: Well, we had most those things and we sure didn't have any money Interviewer: so you, you had most of almost all those and you still considered those, fairly uh commonplace items to have in the kitchen? 412: yeah, if if if your folks were anything at all, you didn't have to be rich to be somebody Interviewer: right 412: In the old culture, in this culture Auxilliary: now, you, you know you can find most of those things in white homes 412: #1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, well # Auxilliary: #2 But in black homes # 412: He's got, he's got a separate survey for the Interviewer: Well, we use the same questions on both 412: Do you? Interviewer: yes, sir. 412: uh-huh Interviewer: Yes sir 412: #1 yeah # Interviewer: #2 it's the same, I use the exact same questions for both # And uh, uh, the answers might be different but the 412: #1 yeah, yeah, uh-huh # Interviewer: #2 questions are the same # uh If you had more than one knife uh, what what would be the plural of knife? 412: Knives Interviewer: okay, uh and uh after a woman washes the, uh, dishes she holds 'em under the water, and what do you call that? 412: Rinse 'em Interviewer: okay and uh, uh, after the the the thing that uh might use to wash the dishes with the cloth that you use to wash, what do you call that? 412: dish rag? Interviewer: okay and the cloth that you'd use to wash your face with what you- 412: A wash rag is what I call it Interviewer: okay and the large cloth that you use to dry yourself when you take a bath what do you call 412: Well, most of the time we use a little towel Interviewer: okay and uh uh okay how about uh, uh what do you call, uh, in the kitchen, the, when you turn on the thing that the water comes out of what do you call that? 412: Well, spout or hydrant or faucet Interviewer: okay yeah, what is there a diff- now if it's outside would you call it the one outside would you hook a garden hose to would you call that something else? 412: I'd usually call that a hydrant only, a faucet Interviewer: okay uh, uh would you see a difference between a spigot and a faucet? 412: never have used a spigot much Interviewer: okay, i noticed that uh she used a 412: yeah, yeah Well she's a north Alabama girl Auxilliary: See I came from Birmingham, I haven't lived in the country always, on the farm Interviewer: oh Auxilliary: I grew up in Birmingham Interviewer: Oh, I see Auxilliary: I wouldn't go back there to live though 412: She's been down here long enough to get acclimated Interviewer: {NW} {NW} It would appear so 412: Think she fusses occasionally about some of our older ladies who talk with her as if she's lived here a hundred years {NW} Interviewer: um, now uh years ago people, you said that you used to store grain in uh, these containers? 412: Yeah Interviewer: and, and you call those what? 412: Well, barrels or drums, or it would depend on might be bends if you built 'em Interviewer: okay and uh, what what what might molasses or lard come in? uh uh, years ago 412: Well, sorry we didn't buy molasses didn't buy either one, really but they'd come in uh jugs, and bottles and barrels and and there was um let me see there's a five five-gallon keg I believe you can get this stuff uh we could buy it in cans of course gallon cans that's still common Interviewer: Have you ever heard the term stand for very large quantities? stand uh now uh what might you use to uh uh drive on a team of horses what would you use to, the thing that you hit 'em with 412: You talking about the whip? Interviewer: alright and and now, uh Mister Ward told me that uh he's worked with some oxen, I don't know, did you ever have any oxen on your farm? 412: no But we had plenty of 'em around us in the depression Interviewer: were there ever uh any different types of devices you used other than whips to egg the animals on when you're out working? 412: Yeah, they I I've seen them use a kind of a long well it wasn't a cane, it must've been made out of hickory or something sort of a gold uh but other than that, course sometimes they call it bull whip Interviewer: yes okay that's, is that any different than uh 412: it's usually laced and uh heavier than an ordinary whip and it would reach farther and you could crack it uh which we had bucket whips too, you know which you wouldn't use that with oxen Interviewer: Now the bucket whips are, or uh, ho-how are they different? 412: Well, they are lighter and they are y- if if you you wanna Interviewer: I don't remember 412: encourage your horse you would just come down on him you might just tip him lightly and that's all he would need Interviewer: okay 412: course you can, you might have a horse that you'd be inclined to use it fairly sharply on him Interviewer: okay, are you 412: yeah, uh, well I don't believe you plied mules much Interviewer: No, I don't think I 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 I don't think # 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Now, my granddad # was noted for being very cruel with animals, so 412: #1 Uh # Interviewer: #2 especially mules because # They had a tendency not to do what he wanted 'em to do 412: yeah #1 Mules are kind of an aggravating # Interviewer: #2 I think he # 412: to me too, but a good mule is better than a sorry horse Then I told 'em that there about this problem with color evading the guard he's got near interested in a little uh power color of eight I've got out there But he and I were both saying that this was still nothing as good as a good mule and a single stock to plow a garden Interviewer: a single sty? 412: Mm-hmm Interviewer: Now what's a is that the plow? 412: yeah, it's the way it's built #1 yes that's the # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: thing that we were talking about yesterday you know Georgia stock {D: haymen stock} single stock #1 I don't know # Interviewer: #2 That's that's a # That's a one mule on a stock? 412: Mm-hmm one foot Interviewer: one foot 412: you can put scrapes, scooters, turn plows, half-shovels anything most you wanted to do Interviewer: You can use it for plowing and cultivating? 412: oh yeah #1 yeah... that # Interviewer: #2 And all that # 412: What Bill and I were wishing for, something we had to uh to cultivate with, see we can get the ground ready with heavy machinery but you can't cultivate it with heavy machinery You can take a good mule who's trained to walk either with cotton or in the yard and then I'd rather have a good mule rather than a horse horses, uh been a bit nervous and jumpy about that sorta thing sometimes yeah she'll have, she'll have Interviewer: {X} how about uh, uh The things that uh, maybe fifty or a hundred pounds potatoes would come in the bags they come in, what what would you call those? 412: Well we this is one of the things I thought about yesterday, when you and I talked with about north Alabama in our area they will say uh a poke or they may refer to poke as well like these uh fifteen twenty pound bags that they pit heavy things in that your groceries we used to, usually say croker sack or toe sack Sometimes you'd say bag and sag depending on what it was made of Interviewer: What, uh, might there be What might be, what what materials of these things could be make up you have 412: well I think that sacks we've gotten here over the years have been made out of either cotton or manila or hemp now they're making most of 'em today out of um paper you know Interviewer: yes sir 412: with a plastic lining that's the way we get all the fertilizer Interviewer: must be cheaper to make 412: I don't know, I've often wosh- wondered about it myself but I guess it is or else they wouldn't have uh done it right course it does keep your fertilizer in better shape, that plastic seal bag Interviewer: So you might, uh okay Have, uh have you ever heard any of those things where you referred to it as like a fertilizer bag as made out of say croke or burlap you ever heard of that referred to as a guano sack, or 412: Yeah, uh I don't we didn't use that generally but you, you might say give me that guano sack Interviewer: okay 412: or they, as contrasted with some other type sack you might have, they see a feed sack would be woven much of more coarsely ordinarily than uh than a cotton sa- than a this other thing you talking about uh uh feed sack would be woven very closely Interviewer: okay Now if uh if the light in the electric light here uh 412: mm-hmm Interviewer: the torch light inside that burned out, you say you'd have to buy a new 412: bulb Interviewer: okay and uh the the the bath uh the uh the thing that you carry the clothes out hang 'em up on a line is a what 412: Well I think I usually say, uh, basket I don't know what all Sally uses Interviewer: okay and uh nails, uh used to come in not, uh, big uh Not like your flour barrels, they used to come in small wooden containers, what would you call those? I called 'em nail, a barrel nailed, a nail barrels uh, yeah 412: yeah kegs Interviewer: yeah, small and what about the uh uh metal bands around the barrels, or the kegs to hold 'em together what what would you call those? 412: I don't know that I've ever called 'em anything bands or about all I can think of Interviewer: okay you ever heard of the term 'who' you ta- 412: oh yeah sure yeah #1 sure yeah # Interviewer: #2 {X} # uh, and and, what about like on a wine, uh a well even now, on on good wine bottles the the thing they put in the top of the bottle to seal it, uh what would they 412: well uh I never did dealt with wine but uh we'd usually speak of corks #1 or the {X} # Interviewer: #2 Oh, alright, well I'll just use that # because that's what they still use in 412: #1 uh-huh # Interviewer: #2 or but # before I mean they used to do this for a lot of other 412: #1 yeah # Interviewer: #2 {X} and # and just about anything 412: see we used corks a lot with, uh syrup in sealing it or, there was a time when you used a corn cob and then take sealing wax and put on top of that Interviewer: if if the, the thing, the stopper was made out of something other than cork 412: yeah Interviewer: alright like let's say you had a glass one would you still call it a cork? 412: No, you'd call it a stopper Interviewer: okay uh, what what do you call this little instrument that's oh about that long and it's got uh little holes on it you play it like this? 412: well we call it a harp or harmonica Interviewer: okay and how about the uh the instrument that's round and it's got a clanger in it and you put it in between your teeth 412: #1 you talking about a # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: Jew's harp? Interviewer: yes sir 412: yeah Interviewer: okay and uh, what do you use to drive nails with? 412: well we use several things but you but you talking about a hammer #1 {X}... yeah # Interviewer: #2 okay, that's the most common item I suppose # and uh 412: I use blacksmith hammers and sometimes you use hatchets sometimes you use a heavy pair- pair of wire pliers Interviewer: well, yeah Or, I be use chamber lock pliers 412: yeah yeah Interviewer: uh 412: I got a part of an old transmission I mean a differential Out yonder that I use occasion {X} for putting pliers on equipment or driving a nail Interviewer: how about uh um uh if you have a wagon and two horses what's a long piece of uh, wood between the horses called? 412: you talking about the tongue? Interviewer: yes sir uh, any other names that you might have for that? 412: yeah we, let's see we've used another term for buggies hmm No, uh that'd be a one horse can't think of it now Interviewer: What would be the 412: We we sometimes would speak of the pole but this is not the term I'm trying to think of uh, go ahead that Interviewer: okay, well then the next one would be uh if you have a horse pulling a buggy you have one horse 412: #1 well right # Interviewer: #2 what's the # thing you back him in between to get him 412: well that's what Sally's talking about calves Interviewer: okay, any other names for those? 412: not that I've ever heard of Interviewer: okay, um uh, never heard of it okay 412: #1 What else, what else # Interviewer: #2 {X} well we got different # variations, how about uh thrills or uh drafts, uh, thrills how about uh uh the steel outside of a wagon, we we, what do you call that? 412: well we call it the tire Interviewer: okay uh alright and um when a horse is hitched to a wagon, what do you call the bar of wood that the traces are fastened to? 412: well I guess you call 'em singletree Interviewer: okay 412: doubletree, depending on what you've got Interviewer: Alright, well, this next one here now now the wagon if you have two horses and each one has a singletree okay uh 412: Then you've got to have a doubletree Interviewer: then then the thing that both of these are hitched to is called a doubletree 412: yeah yeah {NW} Interviewer: uh if uh if man had a load wood in his wagon, he was driving along, what would you say he's doing? 412: A little wood Interviewer: a load of wood in a in a wagon he was going to town say he was doing with that wood? 412: Well I'd guess that he's probably going to sell it, but not necessarily Interviewer: well, uh, just the act of carrying it along, would would you have a term for that? okay 412: Well if he were bringing it up from the woods to the house I'd say he's hauling wood Interviewer: okay, that's all I was looking for 412: #1 how do you say this # Interviewer: #2 Now I # 412: same thing but going to town Interviewer: right 412: We never sold wood Interviewer: oh, i forgot uh 412: I think we'd likely be inclined here to say peddling wood uh Interviewer: peddling 412: uh uh quite a few of our negroes do sell wood and that Interviewer: Well is, they do now? 412: mm-hmm see there are a lot of people who had led to pay a good price for small amounts of good oak or hickory or one or two other species just to have a fire when special friends come in or for themselves if it gets real cold at night Interviewer: yes Well I appreciate a fireplace myself, just general principle of it um we have a as a matter of fact uh, where I'm staying, uh uh There's no fireplace upstairs, so I got an an old Victorian uh uh stove 412: #1 mm-hmm, mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 {X} it's very ornate # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 the, I just use it because # 412: #1 mm # Interviewer: #2 cause I just like the um # feel of a wood fire there's something very nice about it 412: Well in the Texas room in the University of Texas on the library uh I can't think of the you remember {X} if he called his name Great writer from Texas in the West Uh is this engraving on the mantle and by the fireplace and I sat down before the world's greatest philosopher an open fire Interviewer: I like how I like that there's a there's a great attraction for human beings and fireplaces 412: Yeah yeah Interviewer: That's all we want 412: think so Interviewer: Uh, what would you call now if if a tree fell, sort of in a hollow and you had to go down with people put a chain to 'em just so you have to do that tree 412: we usually dragged 'em out Interviewer: Okay 412: Sometimes you skid 'em Interviewer: skid 'em? 412: mm-hmm Interviewer: Alright now, in terms of uh, drag, I'm just gonna get the principal participle of the word here if you if you did it yesterday you say you did what? 412: I'm not sure now what you mean but Interviewer: okay just in terms of the principal part of the word 412: When it happened? Interviewer: No uh, i-if you if uh today you went down and drag i-if today or or tomorrow you you will drag a tree out of the uh of the 412: #1 well # Interviewer: #2 hollow # Well, yesterday you you did what 412: A good many of our huh-uh white people and I suspect most of the negroes would use uh past tense, drug Interviewer: Okay, what would you use? 412: I'd say dragged Interviewer: dragged, okay alright, uh now, uh uh in the springtime what uh, what what do you use to break the ground with? what's the utensil? We talked about, used a, I think you mentioned this a little earlier but 412: Well we use all sorts of things here depending on what we're doing we might use a mattock, we might use this rototiller we might use a a double cut, a double cutting arrow we might use a moldboard plower a three bottomed plower we haven't got any four-bottomed stuff we have used a two bottom, I used two bottom stuff on the ford out there uh, let's see I don't think I've run the #1 Gamma # Interviewer: #2 What was that first when you said the mattock? # 412: Mattock Interviewer: Alright what's that? 412: oh yeah, another two, we do use, Sally use that more than I do is a fork Interviewer: A fork? 412: Yeah, a long fork sole that two part about so long and very heavy tines Interviewer: Two feet long and it has tines, is it like 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 a rake # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: Now I don't know potato rake Interviewer: Well is it like a pitchfork that's bent at a right angle? 412: No, no it's straight straight tines, but it it's so strong that you just press down and then pull back Interviewer: oh i see 412: and the mattock you know you swing it over your head or you can choke it and do it like this Interviewer: oh i see okay Alright now after you've got the uh the ground worked up plowed up just the first plowing 412: yeah Interviewer: alright what would you use to break it up into a finer 412: Well, here again, we'd use any number of things now, we might use the Bowling's rototiller Since we've got this new one we might use the other rototiller uh in the old days, we uh, and I still got some of that uh equipment and I'm sure I keep 'em We use a little Joe hare spring tooth arrow or I've got what amounts to a little Joe hare out there right now for the Bowling's or uh we've got uh some heavy equipment on the four row, I think Bill Well I'm not sure Bill's got it Anyway, some of our growers around here use it it's a type of uh rolling cultivator uh something like a rolling arrow, you must use a lot up in it's a type of weeder really Interviewer: okay 412: it's it's so designed that it rolls fast and it would loosen the ground when the little weeds and grass are just coming up as seedlings before they take hold Interviewer: are they uh uh it's not like a {X} 412: no no They, it would be a rotary Interviewer: Yes, oh I know what you're talking okay 412: #1 Yeah # Interviewer: #2 Yes # that's, okay uh How about uh, what what is the what is the thing that the wagon wheel fits on to? 412: you mean the hub? Interviewer: alright and uh, uh well the hub's the center of the wheel right? where the spokes come together or 412: yeah yeah Interviewer: and what would you take the whole wheel and you put it on that, the wooden bar, the onto the wagon what would you call that uh 412: Well we call, I guess what you talking about we call it the skein Interviewer: the skein? now, this this skein is that the uh uh metal nipple that fits over the piece of wood? 412: yeah Interviewer: okay 412: yeah Interviewer: and what's the skein attached to? 412: well, uh it would be oh, shucks it's partly attached to your fifth wheel uh Interviewer: What's just the long the long piece, uh of wood that goes from wheel to wheel what's that called? 412: Well, I guess you what you talking about is the axle, then Interviewer: okay well then it's but you got a you got the the hub the skein and the axle all attached together 412: yeah Interviewer: okay 412: yeah Interviewer: okay And the skein's just a piece of metal that the the hub has metal on metal 412: yeah Interviewer: right 412: yeah and can be greased Interviewer: Right, I learned after my, just recently from mr uh Gleb, uh 412: #1 either that or a # Interviewer: #2 i never knew about a skein before # around well this that term 412: yeah, we've acquired one or two for the museum, I haven't satisfied myself yet that uh any one of 'em is good enough to ever put on display but we've got a buggy skein that one of these kinda brass embossments fancy ones Interviewer: Wouldn't brass be uh, softer than some of the other metals? 412: well brass was on the outside #1 anyways, for decoration, it's for one of these # Interviewer: #2 oh oh # 412: flashy buggies you know Interviewer: okay uh, now in the morning you might uh uh use two things to uh straighten your hair, you might comb it or you might uh 412: Well, brush it I suppose Interviewer: okay and uh, in a in a barber shop uh when you take a {X} you might have one here too or in the house uh, when you take a straight razor and you wanna hone it you use a uh leather what? 412: Well I'd say we strop it Interviewer: okay 412: {NW} Interviewer: okay and uh um uh what do you call the uh egg shaped frame uh it's usually out in the yard and you lay a log or something it's often used for firewood 412: Well, uh Let's see we used to use those a lot I have called 'em the uh the basket but this is not the, we had another term for it oh, shucks i don't think we ever called it the rack I don't know anymore! It's gone Interviewer: Okay Uh, how about just a uh an A-shape frame, like what the carpenters use Looks, looks a little bit like 412: #1 Well # Interviewer: #2 {X} quarter drawn # 412: When you had to have something to hold that but we have used that uh We just call that a horse Interviewer: okay how about uh uh what do you call the round that you put into uh, a rifle or revolver 412: You talking about the cartridge? Interviewer: yes sir um and uh uh the when children take like a one of these saw horses or a horse and uh um uh put it out in the yard, you take a plank you lay over it, one gets on one end and the other gets on the other end 412: a see-saw Interviewer: okay, you you have any other names you might use for that? 412: what? What's that? Auxilliary: Teeter-totter 412: I don't believe I ever used that one I can't think of any other one I ever heard used Interviewer: okay How about, uh, have you ever heard of Around here now, you might've, well you anywhere uh uh a board that uh uh the same board that you might use for a uh see-saw take it off 412: yeah Interviewer: the frame and you attach it to, to uh uh maybe two uh um horses only you attach each end of the board, where it's limber in the middle with the board, you attach both ends 412: #1 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 to the board, which in the middle # Maybe a chip, uh a child to get up in the middle of it and jump up and down like a trampoline, only only on the board 412: yeah Interviewer: you ever heard of that? 412: #1 No # Interviewer: #2 ever, ever seen that or heard of that? # Okay, that might be more from the uh, Carolina area 412: What do they call it? Interviewer: a driving board 412: {X} Interviewer: okay how about a uh uh board that was attached to maybe a stump or a uh a permanent fixture that was uh like a stump, it was just a solid center object where the board was attached somewhere in the middle to a seat see-saw but it was, uh, with a bolt in the middle where it would go in circles 412: well, I think uh, you talking about what we call uh many things that apply to anything, merry go around Interviewer: okay, or uh would there be uh uh uh, would it be like, alright What, have you heard any other names for that? 412: I don't think of any Interviewer: okay have you ever heard the term, uh like um "flying jenny"? 412: oh yeah, yeah yeah sure Interviewer: okay 412: yeah Interviewer: Alright, and if if two children were out in the yard on a on seesaw, and they were doing it at the time you'd say they are If you wanted to tell someone that the children are outside just the progressive form of seesaw 412: I don't know if I'd say anything but seesawing Interviewer: okay okay and um, what do you call the um when you have two ropes coming down off a limb, and a plank between 'em and the children get on it and go back and forth what do you call that? 412: well, that's just a plain swing to us Interviewer: okay 412: I li- that's like the old gag now you know what you call monkeys in South America? Interviewer: No sir 412: monkeys Interviewer: oh Well now some people might call it a swing-swing 412: uh-huh Interviewer: You know, and not know it as anything else, or something 412: Excuse me just a sec- Interviewer: Excuse me {NS} See, now, you're, you're interested in uh in uh You belong, you, he mentioned that you belong to the uh the D-A-R, daughters of the confederacy? and uh, what other organizations are you in? Auxilliary: Oh, I I I normally... I originally {X} a lot of {X} probably when I was on {X} for eighteen years Interviewer: that's a long time Auxilliary: Well I've been running {X} again for another term He was tired of me coming home and {X} couldn't get nothing but the federal government wanted and I said well if I'm not concerned, I'm not worth a dime Interviewer: hmm Auxilliary: So I didn't run the next term, that was elected basis, I was a {X} but Interviewer: um uh Is, most of the people around here Democrats? Auxilliary: Well yes, most of 'em Interviewer: I know Well I mean you know, he said that traditionally that Auxilliary: yeah Interviewer: most people around here all pretty much Democrats Auxilliary: that's right Interviewer: and, and and Methodist or baptist You had very many other de- denominations? in the area Auxilliary: We had some I knew that {X} in Albany uh Episcopalian Lutheran, we have some Lutherans that live in this community uh We have, uh have had some you know Episcopalian, some still {NS} and few Catholics just most anything you want, we've got Mormons and living right up here, they're building a church Interviewer: The Mormon, Mormons? Auxilliary: uh-huh up the road here, on the {X} creek farms subdivision they're in the process of building a church {X} Interviewer: you have any uh, Spanish Auxilliary: No, we #1 have # Interviewer: #2 people in your area # Auxilliary: No we have a one young woman that uh uh, a Thai lady that lives in our community she married a a Major that grew up here and he's brought her back here and she is a delightful person she uh she's uh Thai educated, has a Master's degree from a university in Thailand and her she has two little girls that are just adorable I taught 'em in Sunday School for a while and and they come up here and they be going, they go to a private school in Albany and they wanna stop by and see mrs Nun They said they were, they're just as cute as they can be she's a tiny little girl and she has uh, been real relied granddaughter was in school, and she I remember had a Thai friend and so she was sort of lonely, I think when they get over here They they they are lonesome it's different, and so she has her husband works at the University now, with the uh veteran's program and uh so all the Thai people that he meets they have him down to eat Interviewer: Mm Auxilliary: and this girl came down the other night to eat, remember that she said that uh I read {X} that they just talked in their Native language to each other, you know I guess they hadn't been able to do that talk to anybody in the language that they knew first, they all speak English and but it's uh different, I'm sure she gets mighty lonesome she comes up here I she calls me up sometime and she came one morning, she called me, and she says "Would you like to have some cucumbers?" and I said "I would love to have some Tiny, but don't bring 'em" "Oh I'll come up there with 'em" and she came up here with this beautiful basket about this big around full of just the right sized cucumbers pickles and and I just, they looked so pretty in the basket, I just admired the basket so much and so they're getting ready to go back to Thailand this fall, last summer last fall, I mean and I so that before she left, she came came up one afternoon to tell us goodbye they were going to visit her parents and she brought me that basket and gave it to me, I said "why Tiny, She said, "Well I have two of 'em and you liked it so I want you to have it" Interviewer: Oh Auxilliary: and things like that and other things that they've brought us course these are, these are Thai lamps this came from Thailand, that's tea He sent me these from Thailand And I didn't know what their vases were originally vases were, he sent me a pair of 'em well I didn't there was a little bitty hole about that big I didn't know what you could do with 'em so I took 'em to the interior decorator, he sent 'em to Atlanta and had 'em made into lamps and uh #1 Yes! uh # Interviewer: #2 They look very good # Auxilliary: different things that they've that they've brought us grass, back and all they always bringing us something back so that when they they came back this time, they brought me a beautiful salad bowl and and uh, individual out of teak wood and uh course they knew we grew fruit so it's made in the shape of a pear, and the individual salad bowls are pears and the spoon and the fork things like that that they just have things that they have so many pretty things that come to {X} Interviewer: yes Auxilliary: get the end, and she she can't come she's a a Buddhist but she comes to our church and uh she's studying Christianity and uh course I don't know much about her Buddhist beliefs {NW} you know, people, you just can't they're so different the things that they do and the way the meals she has had us down several times to eat and the food is delicious and she cooks a regular Thai meal like she would cook it if she was at home and she cooks it on these woks Chinese things, now I, I don't think cooked in one of those things, but she cooks everything in that and then she serves it so beautifully as she would if she were in Thailand and and have no knife on the table no everything is cut in bite-size pieces Interviewer: that's Auxilliary: and she likes to have the way she's served it the soup, and now I noticed Jimmy had a grill going in the backyard and I thought "well that's strange this time the grill was still going" and he was heating the charcoal to put in this funny looking container it was a round thing, sort of looked like a lamp, one of these kerosene lamps we have, it was metal and they put the charcoal down in the bottom of that thing, somewhere to keep the soot piping hot Interviewer: oh Auxilliary: A smart idea, wasn't it? Interviewer: {NW} I guess so, well it's probably you know they don't have Auxilliary: #1 they don't have things # Interviewer: #2 electricity, they can't # Auxilliary: to use, but they had and and she brought one back with her and she used it on the table, and she served the soup with little rice bowls out of that and it was delicious and she served, she had chopsticks on the plates first time I had seen hand-carved ivory, with little elephants on top I said, "Now Tiny, you know I can't eat with these things" she said "I just wanted you to see how we set the table" Interviewer: Oh {NW} Auxilliary: she was trying to let me see how she would set the table if she were in Thailand but she ate with 'em and she fed the children with 'em and her stepson he ate with 'em They, I don't know how they did it but they did Interviewer: I noticed Have you ever had, uh, had a genuine Alabama meal for her? Auxilliary: oh yeah Interviewer: Huh, I gotta crack, like a crack my {NW} Auxilliary: You know, well I've but, she sent me oh she and bamboo soup We have, just an old cane patch out here in the back just canes and it's bamboo to her and she came up here and cut some of that stuff and made bamboo soup out of it but she brought us some Interviewer: did it taste alright? Auxilliary: oh, it was alright if you knew how to do it I wouldn't know how to fix it but they use chicken so much as a base I I she brought it in a dish casserole, and I said "Well I can't take this back empty" That wouldn't be right, I just had and I worried and worried about what I could cook that she would like Interviewer: Mm Auxilliary: In that, take home to her in that dish well I make a di- a dish out of noodles and ground beef and pepper and celery and soy sauce and all that it's real good, we like it so I said "well I believe I'll fix that and I carried it down there and it has almonds on the top just in time for her lunch eating which I and she took the lid off the casserole and she said "ooh" "I'm gonna eat this for my lunch it smells so good" and she liked it! but I didn't know whether she would, you know? you didn't know what to do but I knew I couldn't send it back empty Interviewer: right Auxilliary: I had to put something in that bowl before I took it back Interviewer: sure Auxilliary: but she's just delightful person, just as attractive as she can be uh her parents are still over there and uh Interviewer: They may, they may be there for quite a while now Auxilliary: yeah and her sister is came back with 'em and she was married in California now i guess that they have no brothers or sisters, the parents are the only ones that are left over there and I bet you they tried to get 'em out too Interviewer: yeah Auxilliary: I don't know Interviewer: Well they could probably {X} them out of Thailand, Thailand's not overrun yet Auxilliary: but uh she, I don't know whether that that her father would come, he's one of these religious, uh he's not uh a monk, as they call 'em in uh Buddhist religion but uh Interviewer: A holy man? Auxilliary: yeah, he's one of those and and he, um Jim, the husband, said that he would go in his room and he would stay for two or three days, just praying things like, and you wouldn't even see him I guess that's what you'd call it Interviewer: yeah Auxilliary: And I bet you he wouldn't leave Interviewer: Not too many Christians do that Auxilliary: No, that's the truth Interviewer: {NW} Auxilliary: Sister, they just live in a different kind of situation, everything about 'em that they do differently but she's real attractive and they {X} they've had several professors from the university of Thailand have been in America on an exchange program and they have had 'em to eat, and they have had 'em to our church and and we have t- this to the {X} they were just delightful people too nice folk that they had 412: You gonna have to come ride with me or stay here and visit with Sally a little bit, I got to go close up the museum Interviewer: oh okay 412: I'll be back in a few minutes Interviewer: let me turn this off then {NS} {NW} okay, see where we were oh okay uh what do you uh use to carry coal in? 412: Well we always used a scuttle {NW} Interviewer: okay 412: {NW} Interviewer: Alright and now we have a stove like a, like a wood-burning stove in the kitchen or something like that uh, {NW} what runs from the stove to the chimney? 412: Stove to the chimney, I guess you're talking about the pipe Interviewer: okay is there any difference between a flume and a stove pipe? 412: Well you could use a stove pipe for a flue but you wouldn't usually want to do that Fact we had our renter down here, tried to do it and he just was running all sorts of risk of us burn down that house You wouldn't, you wouldn't permit it if you saw it N-not the way we usually turn it down here Interviewer: Okay, what is the difference between a chimney and a flue? 412: well Interviewer: I mean a stovepipe, you know and the chimney too 412: {NW} {NW} I would say most installations I've seen where you have a an iron stove or similar similar item you would take your pipe to a flue Course i-if you were out camping at night you had it uh uh protected some way against heating and a fire you might just run a stovepipe out of a tin and these youngsters down here at that house they took out a windowpane and ran it through the window and then turned it upright onto the ease of the house Interviewer: oh kinda strange 412: Most, most uh flues Not all of 'em but most flues around here would have hangers too that uh iron hangers usually that you set you flue on Interviewer: okay how about uh what do you call a small vehicle used to carry bricks or mix cement in, it has one wheel in the front and two uh 412: I guess you talking about a wheel barrow Interviewer: Any other names you might have for this? 412: uh Not, uh well we'll say a barrel but ordinarily they'll put the wheel with it Interviewer: Uh, what's the implement that you use to sharpen the side of 412: Well we use uh two or three things we, we sometimes use a heavy file steel file {NW} and uh sometimes we'll use a a whetstone or {NW} {NW} they now have on the markets you know the, and {D: naturally} whetstone itself but it's called by some other name too you have a hammer on it and uh it's um it's a carborundum stone {NS} I use that a good bit now Interviewer: Are those any better than the uh 412: uh Well there were whetstone like Papa used to use it was mighty good but you run some risk if you if you should slip on a sharp blade and that carborundum stone with the handle if you have any caution and any sense at all you don't run any danger slicing part of your hand off Interviewer: How about the kind of sharpening device, that has, it's a wheel, and it sometimes has a handle or a wheel that you turn, use 412: yeah well We got the grindstone and we also have the emery wheel we got 'em both down there at the museum Interviewer: did you ever have any of those on the farm? 412: We had, no not the emery wheel that's a that's a fairly modern thing for our area I'm sure a few machinists machine shops must've had 'em we always used a grindstone Interviewer: okay, if a, like if something's squeaking, like a wheel on a... if something's squeaking and you had to take it down to the filling station, you'd have to take one of those lubricating things and you'd do what with the car? 412: well we'd usually say Alamine Interviewer: Alamine? 412: mm-hmm Interviewer: Would you ever use the other term? 412: Well, greasy? Interviewer: Yeah 412: yeah Interviewer: okay, and uh 412: oh you might uh you might say oily, depending on what was squeaking if the springs were squeaking he'd probably sc- spray uh, uh uh oil Interviewer: Okay, uh, what is it you used to burn in lamps? 412: well we'd burn kerosene Interviewer: okay, any other names you might use for kerosene? 412: Well, coal oil is about the only other thing I they might think of Interviewer: okay, have you ever heard of a makeshift lamp that might be made out of a bottle, a rag out of the top? 412: I've seen it, uh, this is this is what we would call a makeshift but i never heard any Interviewer: never had a proper name used? 412: no Interviewer: you ever heard the term flambeau? 412: Yeah, yeah sure, but flambeau well I guess it's from kerosene too, isn't it? Yeah, w-we're quite familiar with the flambeau Interviewer: okay, how would you make a flambeau? Same way? 412: Well, Sally's father was a railroad man, think the whole family were either doctors or railroad men and they had a standing piece of equipment with a heavy weight that they put into it Interviewer: hmm 412: yeah Interviewer: Was it regular, like a commercial flambeau? 412: yeah yeah Interviewer: And what do you call the, well in the newer tires they have no uh #1 uh # 412: #2 You # talking about inner tubes? Interviewer: Right, okay, and if you just build a boat and it's never been in the water before you go down to the water's edge, and you do what to it? it's never 412: Well you grease the ways I don't know whether that's what you're getting at or not Interviewer: Wait what is the term, sir? 412: I'd say you grease the ways Interviewer: greasy ways? 412: W-A-Y-S Interviewer: oh I didn't know that 412: {NW} Interviewer: You know I've never heard that at all 412: You do that with big ships, too Interviewer: oh Well what about the ceremony where they take like a bottle of champagne? 412: Yeah Interviewer: is that what they call it? 412: yeah, well I don't know what they call it uh suppose a christening Interviewer: yeah, and then the whole ceremony where the ship backs into the water 412: Y-yeah, just slides down the ways into the Interviewer: oh or You ever heard, well I was just trying to get to the term launch 412: yeah Interviewer: uh, alright, what do you, what kind of a boat would you go fishing in on a small laker? what's the name of the boat? 412: Well we've got a bateau you, you could use a canoe uh but we don't use canoes around here much Interviewer: Any other names that you might have for a bateau? 412: well uh, you quite often say, rowboat {NW} Interviewer: okay I'm skipping over some of these grammatical items, there's no 412: #1 Whole # Interviewer: #2 yeah # conversation that we got, I'm sure that's in there if uh uh If a woman wanted to buy a a dress of a certain color, she would take in a little square of cloth to use as a 412: um pattern I reckon Interviewer: alright, or in some of the older, like chocolate boxes, they used to have a top layer that we call 412: you got me there Interviewer: #1 uh # Auxilliary: #2 sampling # 412: huh? Auxilliary: sampling sampling? Interviewer: yeah, so would just a piece of cloth be a Auxilliary: sampling 412: sampler sample, yeah yeah now I know what you're talking about Interviewer: #1 okay # 412: #2 mm # Interviewer: and uh, what might a woman wear over her clothes in the kitchen to keep 'em from getting dirty while working in the kitchen? 412: well apron would be one thing but they've got another one now they put on, all the way on the front, what's that, Sally? Auxilliary: I don't know Aprons, they they make 'em all the way like that 412: well Apron would be the only name I know of Interviewer: and um a writing utensil that they used to dip in ink, that had, was an ink, what would you call that? 412: well I've always called it a fountain pen or a pen Interviewer: okay and what do you call the devices used to attach diapers? 412: well, safety pins Interviewer: okay And in grocery stores, well soup comes in cans, well all the canned goods and the material that the that the cans are made out of, we used to call 'em what kind of cans? 412: talking about tin cans? Interviewer: Yes sir, and two nickels make how many cents? 412: nine Interviewer: or how ma- 412: ten cent Interviewer: Okay we're just getting that pronunciation involved Alright, in the winter time, if it's cold outside, you wouldn't wanna go out without a You wouldn't wanna go outside without something on 412: Well I've depending on how cold it was, I'd either use a sweater or an old coat or a heavy jacket or Might use the way a gunman apparel sold today uh a flight jacket Interviewer: flight jacket? 412: yeah Interviewer: And uh, in old years ago, what might a man, a well-dressed man wear to church on Sunday? years ago, you know few years back Or just, you know, any old, what might your father wear to church on Sunday if he went to church on Sunday? 412: Well I was trying to think of a type of suit used to have way back yonder uh oh it wasn't made from wool, it was made uh an alpaca suit in the wintertime I believe Auxilliary: {X} 412: Yeah, yeah Interviewer: what was that? 412: {D: Lusage} Interviewer: what's that, what type is that? 412: it's a dark nav- you'd call navy blue wouldn't you Interviewer: is it coarse material or? slick 412: No, it's fairly fairly slick, not like silk Interviewer: No, but does it have kind of a sheen to it? 412: yeah yeah Interviewer: and heavy? 412: y- well I'd say middle weight Sally, all we've ever worn down here Interviewer: Well if {NW} um {NW} excuse me between the jack, the outside coat of a suit 412: yeah Interviewer: and your dress shirt 412: #1 You talking about a # Interviewer: #2 Some people might # 412: vest? Interviewer: yeah, some people might wear that And then what would you call the bottom part of the suit? the {X} 412: uh, cuffs Interviewer: Well I mean, the whole garment 412: Well we'd call 'em trousers Interviewer: Alright, anything any other name- 412: We used to call 'em britches Interviewer: okay, and, any other name you might use for that other than trousers and britches? or britches 412: I don't think of anything {NW} No, I don't think of anything else at the minute Interviewer: okay, uh- 412: pants, of course Interviewer: right okay and the, well you know the Levi's, the new 412: #1 Mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 blue jeans, Levi's # You always have to buy them a size larger because they're going to 412: shrink Interviewer: okay and if they've already done that, you say they have 412: Well they if they've done that in advance, it's uh not moisturize huh Interviewer: You can say they're pre- 412: Well preshrunk Interviewer: okay or you could say sanfored 412: yeah That's what I what I was trying to think of but I couldn't think of anything but moisturize Interviewer: okay and uh {NW} {NW} If a person is putting buttons on a coat, what would you say that they were doing? And just, you can say put- sow a button if you were asked #1 to- # 412: #2 just # just putting buttons on a coat to be sewing them on? Interviewer: yeah, if you had a button missing and you asked your wife to sow a button 412: #1 Well I'd just say she # Interviewer: #2 What would you ask # 412: I'd ask her if she put on a button or maybe sew a button on Interviewer: okay would never say anything like, sew a button onto 412: No I don't believe I've ever used onto Interviewer: okay, if a child goes out and gathers a lot of pecans and he has like sweater pockets, you know, cardigan, sweater or something, and he has 'em stuffed in his pockets and you know, his pockets starting to rip out, You'd say his pockets are 412: Well I'd say they're bulging Interviewer: okay, uh, and a young lady, maybe before she goes to church, stands in front of the mirror and she stands there an hour or so, maybe an hour and a half or so, putting on makeup and combing her hair, putting on powder and things, what would you say she's... 412: Well, I think we might say, either prettying up or primping or something else maybe Interviewer: okay and what's the um container that a woman has, that she carries her money in, has a clasp on it, maybe carries it around on her arm 412: Well I say purse pocketbook Or Sally, there's two or three more what else yeah, handbag Interviewer: okay, uh, how about would you call that if it was for coins? I mean if you had one yourself for coins 412: Well we use the word coin purse for one thing and then depending on the nature of it we'd sometimes say pocketbook Interviewer: Okay, like the little one with the clasp on it? 412: yeah Interviewer: okay 412: yeah Interviewer: uh, and what about the thing a woman might wear around her wrist, that's not a watch, just a ornament what would you call that? 412: you talking about a bracelet? Interviewer: yes sir and around a woman's neck she might just be wearing, it has a bead, they're like pearls, but maybe little wooden things, they're not valuable at all, what would you call a {D:messo} strung around her neck? 412: Well Y- you're not talking about a necklace Interviewer: Well it would be, yes it would be a necklace of a sort, but it would just be made out of little round balls that are strung on a string if you ever uh like a string of 412: Think I've ever known a you talking about a string of pearls? Interviewer: Well it could be pearls, in this case, maybe just a little wooden balls or something, not quite as valuable as pearls you ever heard of like a string of beads or 412: I don't recall anything What is it? what is one word? Interviewer: Well it's just a string of beads, or Auxilliary: Beads? 412: yeah Interviewer: you ever heard that expression? 412: String of beads? Interviewer: yes 412: Yeah but I wouldn't say speak of that, I don't believe if it's a if it's a wooden bead Interviewer: Okay what would you call it if it was wood 412: I don't think I've ever heard it called to tell you the truth Interviewer: Uh uh what did men used to use to hold their pants up? 412: {NW} Been so long since I used 'em, I've forgotten that too Interviewer: {NW} 412: suspenders Interviewer: okay, is there any other term you might've used? 412: Yeah, the men around here used to use some other term, let's see if I can remember what it was um use supporters on your socks You used galluses of course galluses {X} suspenders I don't think of anything else all right quick Interviewer: okay Now on a pair of overalls, bibbed, you call those things over your shoulder, you call those anything special? 412: We used to call 'em straps Interviewer: okay How about, what would you carry, an {X} over your head To keep rain 412: We usually said umbrella, I've heard some people say parasol Interviewer: Do you know, can you think of any difference between parasol and umbrella? 412: I usually think of a parasol as more of a lady's piece of equipment Interviewer: Would it be used for inclement weather, fair weather, or what? a parasol 412: No, she might go to a tennis match on a sunny day carry a parasol Interviewer: uh 412: I think of an umbrella as always a rain protector Interviewer: um what's the last thing that you put on a bed? when you're making a bed 412: you talking about a pillow? 412: pillow sham? Interviewer: alright it might, okay what was that again please? 412: pillow sham Interviewer: what's a pillow sham? 412: well we had pillow shams on all those down yonder that would've been the last thing you put on over a bed Interviewer: because they were on top of the 412: yeah it's a Sally would you call those ornaments and? #1 Why did they use # Auxilliary: #2 That was # all they would use because it didn't have That they just covered up the pillows during the day 412: Mm-hmm it's an it's just, it's not a uh sack at all, it's just one piece in it that you kept on up here Auxilliary: piece of it of cloth that faces to the headboard of the bed and just sorta covers up the pillow on the bed 412: and you might have epigrams or one thing or another quite often Interviewer: and is this just 412: his hers for example Interviewer: and it would just like {NW} excuse me, keep dust and stuff off the pillows? 412: Yeah I'm sure it did, that, did you use it for that Sally? {NW} Auxilliary: I never did, we never did have 'em at home 412: Mama used 'em some Auxilliary: and those down at the museum are real old, one of 'em is dated, the date on it is eighteen ninety-eight embroidered into the cloth and um, it um and they used 'em and there are little places that they have clips like things on the bed that stitched to hold 'em up in place they did long time ago Interviewer: And they're like a tent, sometimes this #1 {X} # 412: #2 yeah yeah # Interviewer: that's interesting how about nowadays, you wouldn't use a, what did you call this? a pillow 412: Pillow sham. Interviewer: #1 Sham? # 412: #2 S-A- S-H-A-M # Interviewer: sham nowadays you wouldn't use it, what would be the last thing you'd put on a bed now? Auxilliary: You don't make up the bed, do you? 412: Oh, no Interviewer: okay 412: I, I'm lost there I think Auxilliary: The bedspread! 412: oh {NW} Auxilliary: I told you you didn't make up the bed! 412: I was trying to think of some correlation to pillow sham Interviewer: What might you find on a bed? uh you know, on a bed that's completely made, what might you find laying on it? what's all the pieces that 412: #1 Well # Interviewer: #2 have on it? # 412: you would have sheets and uh either blankets, or quilts, or electric spreads, and they're going out of use though often now, we used to Auxilliary: {X} 412: We used to have one for every bed in this house I believe Interviewer: What was that, sir? 412: The electric spreads Interviewer: oh, like 412: And then of course you'd have pillows, and uh, pillowcases Interviewer: Would you ever have anything like that you'd put your feet across, like a feet warmer? Not a warmer, but an extra piece of 412: Yeah, uh Sally and I sort of cold, put it in the winter put up, as she says Auxilliary: #1 down comforter # 412: #2 Afghan # Yeah Interviewer: What was that again? 412: Afghan Interviewer: Afghan? 412: #1 uh-huh # Auxilliary: #2 That's a handmade crocheted thing, you know # Interviewer: Is that a, would they be inclined to do that years ago? 412: No, yeah, I don't know about that Interviewer: Maybe you've 412: #1 I don't, # Interviewer: #2 seen # 412: I never heard of Afghans when I was growing up Interviewer: Okay 412: Uh is it an old item? Auxilliary: Yeah they used 'em, they might not have told 'em that It's made of handmade crocheted thing you know They probably had some assembly {X} Interviewer: okay Have you ever heard of a, it's a large pillow that goes all the way across maybe a double bed Maybe sometimes a roll, have you ever heard of anything like that? What you might call okay 412: What, what is she's a bolster? Interviewer: bolster, you ever heard of a bolster? Sometimes referred to as a slam, or a plum, or a jam? 412: Uh, {NW} that's all new to me Interviewer: okay What types of land would you have on the farm that you have in here, but what kind of lands did you have? the types of land {NW} You mean it's the topography or 412: #1 soil type, or what # Interviewer: #2 Yeah, it'd be the topography be fine # 412: Well Interviewer: We'll get into soil types 412: Yeah We, we had an I do have on the home place bottom lands or gravel lands or sloping lands or rolling lands or some hilly lands, some steep lands uh, some level And we would also use uh in farm terms, we'd speak of this as being cultivatable or see what else we might use Course we'd have gullied lands sometimes eroded lands {NW} That's about all I can roll off right quick Interviewer: You mentioned, you say, swampy? Did you say that? 412: I think I said bottom Interviewer: #1 lands # Interviewer: #2 oh I'm sorry # What kind of, what soil types would you have? 412: Oh lord, hmm I can just take our Interviewer: Well just, uh 412: Take our own land cuz there are some hundreds I believe Sort of classifications in this county alone {NS} We mostly have, uh Norfolk and Orangeburg some Tifton, I believe there's a little Ruston And then a whole series of soil types, I was actually looking at that last night, I guess it was Night before last, when a friend called about the location of a church Uh and then uh, we would have uh sandy, and sandy loam loamy sand uh some clays uh this Tifton soil is a gravelly uh well really it's a pebbly soil we would have uh sticky soils, or tight soils, or permeable soils I don't know what else You could kind of rattle #1 on on that for # Interviewer: #2 okay # 412: #1 a long time # Interviewer: #2 okay, uh # What, if the land is very rich, it has everything you like, we were talking about this land 412: Yeah Interviewer: Around here, there's so much that you had to stop putting phosphate on. What would you say that land is, it'll produce almost anything, it's very 412: Well, we'd usually say rich Interviewer: rich, would you ever say anything else, like uh well, use a different expression Like if you have two cans of eggs, there's eggs that, hens that are made to lay, never have contact with roosters, and then there's hens that are 412: You talking about, well this would be always be a case of fertility Interviewer: alright So if you just had the use of the adjective, if you're just talking about a piece of land that was, it was very 412: Well, I'm sure what you're thinking about is fertile Interviewer: okay 412: And we use that term often, but I don't believe we'd use that either of those infertile or fertile necessarily, maybe not as often as we'd use 'em, we, we quite often say this is poor land Interviewer: Poor? 412: #1 except # Interviewer: #2 uh, or rich # 412: yeah, poor, rich or you might have some, you might be more inclined to say this is real good land uh Interviewer: okay 412: Or y- 412: Robert's been predicting that he would die for a long time or {NS} felt like he would. Interviewer: {X} He uh uh responded well during the interview. Like I thought he personally this is just my opinion I think he would have enjoyed doing it because again he started reminiscing and 412: #1 Uh-huh. # Interviewer: #2 and I think he got # fairly active. But I- I believe his family thought it might be a little bit too much {X} 412: Well he must be uh Sally we'd better go down and see him soon. Uh Robert said well he is oh nine He's about three years older than I am {C: tape distortion} seventy-four. Interviewer: Yeah I believe he's I believe that's what he did say cuz I did ask him 412: #1 Uh-huh. # Interviewer: #2 his age. # Matter of fact I know a {X} 412: {NW} Interviewer: Uh seventy-three. 412: Mm. But he'll be seventy-four before the end a' the year then. {C: tape distortion} See I'll be seventy-one in September and we're about three years apart. Interviewer: Okay. {C: tape distortion} Uh what's n- would you mind uh naming some of the streams that are off- uh or creeks in the community that you have around here? 412: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's no {C: tape distortion} You gonna write these down? Interviewer: No they'll be on tape. 412: I'll name 'em if you write 'em down. Interviewer: No no. I ain't gonna I don't wanna write 'em cuz they'll be on tape. 412: Well {C: creek name} for example. Interviewer: Ch- {C: tape silence} {C: creek name} 412: {C: creek names} Interviewer: Are these creeks or streams now? 412: Well some are small streams. Most of 'em are we call creeks and the {C: creek name} of course is a bunch a' what farther north they would call rivers. But uh we use the term creek much more often than uh I find in Tennessee or north Alabama for example. Uh then {NW} We've got over on this part a' the uh county in- in the upper part there are {C: river names} Big {X} Little {X} And the Chattahoochee of course. And then up in {NW} excuse me s- Chamber's county we've got a lot more. Interviewer: Uh-huh. 412: Indian names that I don't keep in my mind too well. I'm barely familiar with our own county creek. Interviewer: When uh uh 412: {C: creek name} I forgot that one. That's one of the biggest ones. Interviewer: {C: creek name}? 412: {C: creek name}. Interviewer: We- is there- is there any type of a k- a k- a k- uh qualitative difference or quantitative difference between the size of a body of water before you call it a stream or a creek? 412: Well Yeah. {X} I said to you a while ago I noticed long time ago that uh north of us they are inclined to call a lot of streams uh rivers. That wouldn't be any bigger than our {X} or the Saugahatchee. We we usually speak of uh small {NW} very small streams {X} just fed by a spring or two. This would likely be a branch as it started. A- as it was fed by more and more strea- uh branch uh {X} springs and uh uh tributaries it might become a creek. But we're inclined to speak of the larger streams without any designation like Chattahoochee or {C: stream name} or Saugahatchee or {C: stream names} Tennessee. Interviewer: I noticed on some a' the signs they'll say rivers. {X} 412: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: So there is sort of uh a difference between a creek a stream and a river in the sense 412: Yeah. Uh keeping in mind that uh uh m- many of the larger creeks as we use the name would be called rivers in a lot of n- places north of us. It's true of north Alabama I think. Interviewer: Okay uh if you had some bottom land uh that water uh was on- stood on for uh oh two three five months out of the year uh uh and you wanted to farm it what would you have to do to the water? 412: Well it would depend uh on the type of soil and on the type of sub-soil Uh we would likely uh drain it off in some way. Interviewer: W- how would you drain it? 412: Well we just might plow furrows or go in there with equipment heavy enough to open up some ditches to get the water running off. Draining off. Uh You might dynamite or blast out uh ditches to Interviewer: #1 {NS} # 412: #2 take it off if it's staying that long. # Interviewer: #1 {NS} # 412: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: {NS} If uh {NS} If you- if you had some uh rolling farmland and it rained hard for maybe three four five days and it started uh eroding a little bit 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 What do you # And it- and it- it caused a uh uh uh sort of a small valley maybe ten feet deep about ten feet 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 wide what would you # call that? 412: Gully. Interviewer: Gully? Okay. 412: You'd speak of the rain being a gully washer. Interviewer: Gully washer? 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Uh would you have any other names for that? 412: Well you'd you might put together the phrases gully washer and trash mover. Interviewer: Trash mover? 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Is- is that the same? 412: Well {NW} This means that you dig out gullies and you'd carry away with you all the loose trash of whatever sort there might have been on the surface. Interviewer: Oh. Oh I see. Okay. {NS} Uh {NS} Uh would you uh wh- what- what's a very st- designations that you might use to refer to uh uh you've already mentioned the word hill I believe uh when you're talking about land tax but what- what other designations might you refer to uh a rise of ha- of land like a s- a small hill? Do you refer to 412: #1 Well we might # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: use the word knoll. {NW} me my throat. {C: coughing} Interviewer: Okay. 412: {NW} I think I'm gonna have to get me something else and sip it. Uh Auxiliary: I'll get you something. {NS} 412: Yeah that might help honey. {NW} Uh {X} uh You might speak of a ridge. {NS} A ridge would imply uh moderately high uh spot of land but it would not be just uh a peak. It would stretch out for some distance. {NS} {NW} Uh Of course Eh if you went west and that's got nothing to do with- with us uh in the west of uh well the high plains you'd {NS} you'd speak of a s- an escarpment. {NS} Interviewer: Escarpment? 412: Yeah. E-S-C-A-R-P-M-E-N-T. {NS} Interviewer: Now isn't that more like a- a bluff area where 412: Yeah that's where it'd go right straight up. Uh that's what you do to get on the high plains and all. Auxiliary: Is- could that also be called uh uh something else? I mean uh 412: Well it could be called a bluff. Interviewer: Alright wh- what would be another w- uh word for uh like if you came to an edge of- of a very high plateau type and went straight down. Auxiliary: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 What- what would you call that? # 412: Well we'd s- sometime would call it cliff. Interviewer: Okay uh uh 412: {NW} Interviewer: What are also some of the other uh names? You may not have 'em in this county but what're all the- the other names that uh you can think of for land elevation? Topologically you know. Land 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 elevation. # 412: Yeah. {NW} Well y- y- you thinking about plateaus and Interviewer: Alright well anything 412: Knobs and Interviewer: Alright. {NS} 412: Hills. Interviewer: Mm. 412: Uh Let's see. I think I gave you most of the Interviewer: #1 Okay well # 412: #2 designations # that I can think of of the sloping or rolling land. Uh Interviewer: Well then uh the only other ones that uh that I can think of would be like uh oh like up around Chattanooga they got uh huge ones. {X} they call those what? Th- they're really big hills. 412: Well I- I guess you uh you're talking about plateaus or mountains? Interviewer: Mountains {X} 412: Plateaus on top a' the mountain. Interviewer: Alright. 412: {NW} Interviewer: Pronunciation item. 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Uh uh up- up in the mountains now uh where a road goes between uh uh uh the two hills 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 of a mountain # uh just a low- a low place that goes between and maybe a road would go through there uh uh would you have a name for that? 412: Oh yeah. That's where Sally and I nearly got killed with two other elderly people just ahead of us. Through Ocoee gorge in west Tennessee. No east Tennessee. Not west Tennessee. {NW} Interviewer: Okay. You call that a gorge? 412: Lord yeah. Interviewer: Okay. {C: laughing} Uh 412: Thank you hon. Interviewer: Alright. 412: You never have been through it? Interviewer: No I haven't. 412: Mm you oughta try it sometime. Interviewer: Well if you almost got killed there I don't know if I should. {C: laughing} {NS} 412: It's the biggest bunch a' damn fool truck drivers I've ever seen in my life. They haul chemicals. You see that big uh Sul- not sulfur a copper plant up at copper hill another one duck hill. No. Duck town. {NW} And they need enormous amounts of chemicals and those big trucks. They're all designated chemicals of course {X} But those drivers seem to think that they own the roads and the You should uh tip o- take off your hat or cap and tip to 'em and say yes sir go ahead. Biggest bunch a' fools I've ever seen and they- one or two of 'em really one behind the other they nearly killed Sal and me and uh this old couple about our age I think. Maybe a little older right ahead of us in another car. Interviewer: Did you go off the road? 412: No. We managed it. And to show you what a fool the lead one was {NW} uh as you come out of the gorge {NS} Uh {NS} Yeah I expect that may do me more good than this Sal. {NS} As you come out a' here right here. {NS} If I'm {X} {NS} {NW} Auxiliary: Would you like a cup a' coffee? Interviewer: Uh no ma'am. I'll take a glass a' water though. Auxiliary: Okay. Interviewer: If you don't mind. {NS} 412: Going eastward as you come out a' the gorge it's a long long mountain climb. Well these big trucks cannot make time on on those slopes upward. I never seen one yet. If they've got a load. {NS} So it's very easy to pass 'em. Well these fools {NS} had tried to just purely run over us coming down the hill you see and we were trying to observe uh the speed limits and this couple ahead of us were Actually the- much of that gorge it Interviewer: #1 Thank you very much. # 412: #2 I think uh # y- you simply can't drive safely even at the indicated top limit. But when you start on the up hill climb {NW} You can just leave those big trucks behind. And I'd already made up my mind that if I got a long drive I- I knew where the climb was and I made up my mind that if we caught up with him early enough I was gonna get ahead of him and go on and leave him. Well we passed him somewhere up the slope alright. I believe maybe he just about had gotten to the crest and was going over. Well we passed him and uh we were way ahead of him. Well that rascal it seemed to insult him so that we'd gotten ahead of him that he took out to pass us. And uh there were three There was another truck. Not as big a truck. It wasn't a chemical truck. Also down slope then as you come out a' the climb and start back down in the open country. {NW} Well I had of course pulled left coming over the uh uh brow a' the uh climb into the left lane. There was nobody coming towards us. And we uh we were soon approaching this second truck. Well that fool He seemed as I said to be so incensed that we had passed him and it looked there for oh a few seconds as if the fool would actually try to pass this other truck on his side and then try to knife through. And I didn't do a thing but just step on the car and uh got up to about eighty to get away from him. And I did. But that's the sort of men you've got to deal with and this has happened more than once but this was the worst case we ever had. Interviewer: W- Where was- where did that happen now? 412: It's uh in Ocoee gorge between uh Chattanooga and well the gorge doesn't reach to Murphy, North Carolina but uh these are two kind of tunnel points between Chattanooga and Murphy. Interviewer: Mm-hmm. 412: And you- I guess you'd go into the gorge about uh {NW} Fif- uh twenty miles or more east of Chattanooga I guess. And the gorge itself I think is uh twelve or thirteen miles and then this climb about a mile and a half or more. Interviewer: Okay. Uh {NW} Oh what do you call a place where large amounts a' wat- like like uh like Niagara where large a- amounts a' water come over uh oh uh a cliff or something? 412: Well we call 'em falls. Uh and then I guess we'd use some other designation. Let's see. What do we use sometime Uh Well I guess in my case uh I would apply the word falls to Robinson creek over here for example just as easily as I would to Niagara. Interviewer: Alright. 412: Uh Now a' course a n- number of our c- creeks in this area just like other big stream they have rapids uh below the falls. I- I reckon that uh falls would be what I'd usually use. Interviewer: Okay. 412: {X} Interviewer: And- and what do you call uh a place where uh uh large boats or boats in general uh Sometimes in- in the old days along these uh rivers they'd stop and unload freight. What do call those? 412: W- we'd usually call those docks. And if- if you have pleasure boats uh here in this area now we're using the term marina. Interviewer: #1 Marina. # 412: #2 {X} # Mm-hmm. M-A-R I-N-O. Interviewer: mm-hmm Okay. And and 412: Course uh uh uh and we would also use uh I guess this would be a general term We would say a boat was coming into Mobile port or into the port of Savannah. Uh into fort Lauderdale Florida for example. {NW} Interviewer: has a port right? Okay. What do you call a uh uh a- a little road that goes off the main road? You know like a 412: We'd usually say a side road or field road or maybe dirt road today uh. Uh Trail sometimes. We've got some road {NW} north of us now that were once public roads that have turned into trails almost though you can get in a Jeep and {NW} travel 'em. We wouldn't try it otherwise. Interviewer: Uh and- and What do you call a uh like when you come- some farms up way off the main road 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 or way off a # side road 412: Yeah. Interviewer: {X} What do you call the- the when you go to a man's house and he has his own road going up to his house? What do you call that uh 412: Well we'd call it usually a driveway unless it was a very long distance. If {NW} I don't believe I'd be inclined to call a man's entrance road a drive way if I- if I could see the house but it was a half mile away. I'd just probably call it the field road or the road to his house. Something like that. Interviewer: And if it was planted like with trees on both sides you know and you had to kind of go through it to get would you still call it a drive way? 412: We'd be inclined to call that a drive way. Interviewer: #1 Okay. # 412: #2 Yeah. # Interviewer: Uh And in- in towns uh uh the uh uh walk paths along side of the roads. What do you call those? 412: Well I guess you're talking about sidewalks. Interviewer: Okay. And uh uh they're usually made out of what? {NS} 412: Well most of 'em- most of 'em I've seen made out of cement. Interviewer: Okay. You ever see any roads made out a' that same material? 412: #1 Oh yeah. # Interviewer: #2 Around here? # 412: Sure. Interviewer: Do you have any special names for those? 412: Well we usually distinguish between uh asphalt and uh concrete roads. Interviewer: Okay. Ever refer to 'em as cement roads? {NS} 412: Uh I'd say yes. No I believe if you think about express ways uh we'd usually say concrete road. Or we might say paved roads. Interviewer: Mm. 412: {NW} Alabama {NW} uses a lot of asphalt. Georgia's been more inclined to spend a lot of uh capital in putting in uh concrete roads. Interviewer: Are they uh better roads in your estimation? 412: Well uh they last longer and course they- they maintain the evenness of the surface. Interviewer: #1 Do you get a lot a' ice down here on the roads? # 412: #2 {X} # Interviewer: #1 # 412: #2 # Occasionally. Interviewer: I know up north {X} a concrete road is uh is- is superior in some ways and inferior in others because well we get a lot a' snow and ice and uh water seeps down as it's if it hasn't frozen yet gets into the concrete. 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Freezes and as it freezes it {NW} expands and contracts and it chips huge chunks a' concrete out. 412: #1 Mm. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # We get every year you have to go around almost repave everything cause you get so many potholes. That's why the roads up north are always 412: #1 Mm-hmm. # Interviewer: #2 {X} down south. # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 {NS} # 412: Well now asphalt will do that same thing. Uh it'll freeze in spots apparently and then it then begins to break up in small chunks. Interviewer: Right. 412: But a- asphalt also is much more dangerous on the {NS} uh rainy or watery road than a concrete Interviewer: #1 It's slicker. # 412: #2 {X} # Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. 412: Down here we'll often have uh highway warning signs uh concrete slippery when wet {NW} or they may say of course say road slippery when wet. Interviewer: Okay. Uh if you're walking down a road or lane or whatever and a- and a dog jumped out at you you know and uh it looked like it was gonna come over and bite you. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Uh and you pick- reach down and you uh uh uh what would and y- you could see something that you could reach down and grab. What {NW} You know. A little stone or something. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: What mi- what might you do? What would you call that? What would you do in other words? 412: Well I'd probably throw at him uh my chunk at him. Interviewer: Okay. Chunk a' ro- a chunk a' 412: Or if you had found a stick you might flail at him or strike at him or hit at him. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Swing at him. Interviewer: Alright. How about now in reference to- to coffee now there's two ways you can drink coffee basically. Uh when you're- well not two ways. There's many ways. But uh uh there's uh uh just regular coffee. Now what- what do you call uh coffee uh that has nothing in it? Other than coffee? 412: {NW} I just call it coffee I think. Interviewer: Okay well there- you know like uh uh 412: Or straight coffee. Interviewer: Straight. Or- or is there any other terms that you've heard people talk about uh 412: Just plain coffee. Well they got nicknames for it. Interviewer: Alright. 412: Uh If I can even think of them now Uh If I can even think of them now Interviewer: Have- have you ever heard the term uh uh drinking your coffee barefoot? 412: No. Interviewer: Alright. 412: They talk about drinking it straight. Interviewer: Alright. Or uh or uh in reference to the color of it with uh 412: Yeah that- that is one a' the nicknames I trying to think of {C: background noise} There's another nickname too Sally. They use uh Course we say of uh New Orleans coffee the market street coffee that uh if it dissolves your spoon it's about right. Interviewer: {NW} That's quite- yeah that's pretty rich. {C: laughing} {NW} That's pretty {X} 412: {NW} {NS} Interviewer: I don't know if I'd want to drink that. {C: laughing} {NW} 412: Well I don't drink it much. Interviewer: Okay. Uh uh Alright and in this case uh still {C: background noise} like it uh 412: Uh with and {X} some without. Interviewer: Okay. {X} Uh 412: Uh when you say sugar but no milk or milk but no sugar for example. Interviewer: Alright. I- if a child is given the same name uh uh that her mother has okay you might say that the child was named blank her mother. 412: Mm. Interviewer: Fill in that blank. {NS} 412: Named for her mother if that's what you're getting at. Interviewer: Okay. Uh uh alright if a ch- and you would say that the child's named the same name as that of her mother you'd say that the child is named for her mother. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Yeah. {NS} Interviewer: You might not say anything like named after her mother or 412: Yeah yeah I've {C: background noise} heard that. I guess I'd use that. I believe I'd usually say named for the mother but I've certainly heard that other {C: background noise} Interviewer: Okay. 412: Many time. Interviewer: Alright now these are next questions here are mainly animal questions. 412: #1 Mm-hmm. # Interviewer: #2 Farm animals # and some domestic animals. Uh {C: background noise} different things. {X} What's the- what's the kind of animal that barks? 412: Well dog. Interviewer: Okay. 412: And a fox. Interviewer: Okay yeah. Right. Few others. Uh although they just got the 412: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 dog here you know. Farm animal. # Uh uh if you wanted your dog to attack another person or a dog- another animal 412: Sic him. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Go get him. Uh catch him. Depends on how you train him. Interviewer: Alright. And uh uh If- if- if- if the dog is a mixed breed what might you call it? 412: Well a lot of 'em are mongrels or worse. Interviewer: Okay are there any other names that you might think of for mongrels? 412: Well we call a lot of 'em round here strays. See we've got a lot a' wild dogs. Interviewer: You mean just uh they were once domestic and just {X} stray? 412: We've we've got a type of person. I'm sure you must have seen 'em {NW} known of 'em. Well we've got type of person here in this large university. {NS} They want a pet but when they leave school or they finish school they don't seem to make any bones about just taking this kitty or pup or the dog and just dropping it out say at a house two miles out of Auburn or one mile out of Auburn. Or they'll just drop it on the road side sometime. Interviewer: Hmm. 412: Peggy and the children and Prince are always taking in strays of that kind. And we get 'em down here. {NS} Interviewer: That's not too good for the animals. {NS} Uh Alright if- if a dog liked to bite you might say the boy was blank by the dog. 412: Bitten. Interviewer: Okay. {C: background noise} And uh uh uh uh if you're trying to caution the boy you say be careful. That dog might 412: bite you. Interviewer: Okay. And- and if he- if the dog has a history of biting people you say be careful. That dog has uh in the past 412: Well I think I'd simply say {NS} that dog has bitten {NS} {D: Joe street} so and so. Interviewer: Okay. Uh 412: Or that dog will bite. Interviewer: Alright. Uh uh In- in- in a herd of cattle what- what might you call the male? {C: background noise} 412: we usually call him just plain bull. Interviewer: Okay {C: background noise} Uh {NS} well uh {NS} Did was it polite- I mean did you 412: No you said the male. Interviewer: Alright but you wouldn't speak around uh women uh uh 412: about the bull. Interviewer: About the bull. 412: No. No. Interviewer: Uh would that go for other a- male animals too? 412: Uh well they didn't know much about uh horses and {NW} jennies and stallions and so so you wouldn't have expected to hear that as often anyway. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Much less uh you'd speak of the male cats as tom cats. And that's what they still say. Interviewer: But you wouldn't want to around your mother or around uh her friends or your sisters or anybody you wouldn't speak of a male animal or male uh uh {X} uh bovine 412: Sally I don't believe I ever heard 'em hesitate to use the term tom cat. I don't know whether you'd uh heard it that way or not. But they wouldn't usually speak of bull. {X} I think it'd be a little bit more inclined to speak of stallion because uh this would've been in horsey company you know anyway. Interviewer: Right. 412: And they never did hesitate to use times. Interviewer: Okay uh uh what- what kind of a uh uh animal uh that you can use to get milk from? 412: Mm well cow. {X} Interviewer: Okay. And uh earlier we talked about mu- mules. When you have two mules working a plow you- what do you call those? 412: Team. Interviewer: Alright. Or- or uh {NS} you might uh You ever heard uh span? Okay. {C: background noise} Span. 412: Oh span. That's usually was used with uh two horses hitched to a buggy. Interviewer: Oh. 412: They would {X} this in the old days when uh a man who had a span of horses and um flashy buggy he was uh he was a sport in town. Interviewer: Sport. 412: Yeah and Interviewer: #1 That'd be like # 412: #2 he # Interviewer: roughly like that now about like a young man with a sport car? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: #1 {X} # 412: #2 Yeah. Mm-hmm. # Interviewer: #1 # 412: #2 # Interviewer: That's interesting. How about uh oxen? Uh you know like uh I don't know if you've Did anyone ever have like a pair of or a team of oxen and uh would they have a name for them? 412: Yeah uh back in uh depression days and uh earlier when we did a lot a' logging with oxen we had plenty of them. I don't know what I ever heard uh anything but a team. I was trying to think of what to call 'em if they had four. They'd sometimes use four and six. I don't remember any special term applying to that many though. Interviewer: Okay. Uh how about the- the- the little uh {NW} remember the bovines {X} and when it's first born what do you call it? 412: You mean a calf? Interviewer: Yes sir. And uh If- if uh if you had a cow it's name was daisy and she was expecting a calf you might say daisy is going to 412: calve. Interviewer: Alright have you 412: #1 But # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: now if you were around the children you'd likely say- and see what did we say? I believe we'd usually say that uh daisy's {NW} going to have a little baby herself. Uh a little calf or something like that. Interviewer: Okay. Would there be any other terms that you might uh use that uh you may not use around women? 412: Uh Interviewer: #1 Or around {X} # 412: #2 Well of course uh # with a horse you'd speak of a mare foaling. Interviewer: Well how about uh you ever heard the term freshen? 412: Yeah sure well Interviewer: Any of those terms? 412: Yeah that- that was a family term. Interviewer: A family term? 412: Yeah. You'd speak that you'd have a cow to freshen. And uh I'll have such uh so much more milk then I can supply you with milk when the cow or when daisy freshens. Yeah I didn't even think about that. Interviewer: #1 Or how about uh # 412: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: uh another form of that would- you might say come fresh? 412: I never heard that. {X} Interviewer: How about spring? 412: Well we usually would use that term by saying that uh such and such a cow is springing. Interviewer: Uh yeah alright. Okay. And that means to have a calf? 412: Uh yeah that you know she will. Interviewer: Okay. 412: You can begin to detect it. Interviewer: You ever heard come in? 412: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Uh um uh What do you ca- well you talked about it. Stallion. Any other names for uh stallion that you might have used for male horse? 412: Oh among the men they talk about a stud. Stud horse. Interviewer: Okay and you wouldn't use that around women 412: #1 No. # Interviewer: #2 right? # At all? 412: No. Interviewer: Uh but you might use stallion around women. 412: I think more likely because I said to you awhile ago uh this would likely be more of a what we call a horsey company they- they you know the horse people are they're a breed apart themselves. Interviewer: {X} 412: And they're kinda stud horses themselves. men and women Interviewer: Okay well then they were they're- you mean they're- they might have been a little bit uh uh more 412: #1 Little bit more # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: racy we'd say. Uh Interviewer: Worldly? uh 412: Yeah. Interviewer: In that sense. 412: Yeah. I don't mean they were bad people. Interviewer: No I know {X} 412: Low character people is- is just uh way they looked at things. Interviewer: When you have to deal with it you know about it. 412: Yeah. Yeah. {NS} Interviewer: Uh 412: Now {X} I don't know. Maybe you're coming to this but uh {NW} You remind me a' one thing. There wasn't any hesitation in our circles to speak of rooster and hen. Interviewer: There was no hesitation at all? 412: No. Interviewer: Were there any uh terms that uh there was a hesitation to speak of in terms of a male roo- uh rooster uh in terms of 412: No I think that it had been worse- considered worse to say male chicken than to just say rooster. Interviewer: {X} Okay. Uh uh how about a female horse? 412: Well y- you spoke of as a mare though y- you used it rather sparingly if you were around uh Interviewer: Now that's one you'd use sparingly around uh women? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And if you have uh two or three uh mares and stallions together that's a group of what? 412: That's a group of horses. Interviewer: Okay. And uh uh if you saddled a horse and you uh got up on it and went- went to town you call that uh you're doing what with the horse? 412: Well now we'd just ride uh {NS} old Joe to town maybe. Interviewer: Okay. And if you did it yesterday you'd say you 412: Well I rode him to town yesterday. I rode up town yesterday. I rode down to town. Uh Interviewer: Okay. 412: Rode over to uh Bill Johnson's yesterday. Interviewer: Alright. And if a man's been at your house maybe an hour and someone else came in you'd say uh and- and the other man came in on a horse you'd say uh the man that's been at your house for a while came in on a horse 412: {X} Interviewer: might tell the new person say uh he has uh {NW} using the perfect form of ride. 412: You mean he- he has a riding horse? Interviewer: No he- uh say he's- alright say he rode over to your house and you're just talking. Somebody say he he has uh blank his horse this morning. 412: {NW} I'm not sure I understand what you Interviewer: Alright would you 412: #1 If you're # Interviewer: #2 ever say he # 412: speaking of the fact that he did come in that morning on his horse I'd say he rode over this morning. Interviewer: Okay would you ever say something like he has ridden? 412: Uh not in the sense he has ridden over today unless I said it about like this uh {NW} Joe uh Jack here has ridden over to spend the day with us. Interviewer: Okay. Alright Well I was just getting the perfect form 412: Yeah. Interviewer: of the verb right. 412: Yeah. {C: background noise} Interviewer: A- a- and a person was uh he got on his uh horse and he rode down the road a ways and his horse uh came across a rattle snake and rared up and he uh the person that was on the horse hit the ground you'd say he- what happened to him? {NS} 412: We'd say he fell off for one thing. Uh if he is injured we'd likely say he was thrown from his horse and such and such happened. Let's see if there's anything else I think of. Interviewer: If a person's injured when they fall off a horse do uh I mean the uh falling off a horse and not being injured you just say he fell off right? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: But if you fall off and you're injured you say that you were thrown? 412: Well I'm- I'd- I think I would be likely to say uh {NW} Jack was thrown from his horse and broke an arm or broke a knee joint or broke an ankle or something else. Or bruised himself. Interviewer: Mm. {NS} 412: Uh let's see. I'm trying to think if th- there are any phrases else would you Uh Well you might say the ordinary thing. Jack was injured yesterday J- or Jack's knee was injured yesterday when he was thrown from his horse. Interviewer: Okay. Uh now- now if a person was in bed and he rolled over too fast and misjudged how far from the middle of his bed he was hit the floor. What would you say he did there? 412: We'd say he fell off the bed. Interviewer: Fell off? Okay. Uh 412: Or rolled off the bed maybe. But I think we'd be more likely to say fell off the bed. Interviewer: Okay. And- and- and what are the things that you uh put on a horse's feet to protect him from the road? 412: Well we say {X} uh have them shod. Interviewer: Shod? 412: And they have horse shoes- uh have shoes on. Interviewer: Okay. Are there any special games that you play with those? {NS} 412: {NW} Well We'd play horseshoes {C: background noise} Interviewer: Okay. Any other names {X} that game that you know of? {NS} 412: I don't think of anything. Interviewer: Okay have you ever heard the term quo- uh quoits or quoits or {C: pronunciation second} 412: Quoits? Interviewer: Yeah. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Is that uh with horse shoes or is that something else {X} 412: I thought that was a different type of uh Interviewer: or {X} sometimes it might be referred to? Okay. 412: {X} I- I thought quoits were round uh well like a round let's see. What else do we use those horse- trying to think. {NS} Well {NW} I don't- I can't say offhand whether I {NW} would've would say they're pitched or- or or thrown. But I- I- I think clearly or definitely of quoits as being round flat pieces of uh metal Interviewer: Like 412: #1 that you # Interviewer: #2 uh # 412: pitched. Interviewer: To- to hit a stake that was sitting up? 412: No I don't- I don't remember them as being to hit a stake but to hit a circle is what I'm thinking about. I may be all confused. Interviewer: Well you may not be too {NW} Again it might uh {NW} there might be some cross reference later on with someone else. Uh How about uh Oh. Uh horse shoes are nailed onto a horse's 412: hoof. Interviewer: Alright. And- and the four of four of those are called 412: hooves. Interviewer: Okay. Uh and the male sheep is called a what? 412: Ram. Interviewer: Alright and di- Again now here is uh Did you ever have terms that you wouldn't use around uh uh or uh women here 412: #1 Uh # Interviewer: #2 or that you would use? # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 {NS} # 412: No. There's never been a question about using the word ram at least in our circles. {X} had sheep and he had a he had an old ram was a hell raiser. Uh {NW} He would get out in the pasture with a loud coat. There's nothing usual. Unusual. But he also had a a special stump he could step behind and he'd shake that loud piece of cloth or his coat. That old ram and then he'd get right straight in line between the ram and this stump. The old ram would always hit the stump and just bounce back. {C: laughing} Interviewer: {NW} He liked to butt {NW} the ram liked to butt a lot huh? 412: Well the- that's the way he fought. Interviewer: Uh-huh. {X} Did he have uh uh horn? 412: Uh I've forgotten now. He would cut off a lot a' the horn sometimes if I remember. Ordinarily {X} haven't come off you know a ram's horn kinda curls round and round. {NS} Interviewer: Okay. Wh- what's a female sheep called? 412: Ewe. Interviewer: Okay. And uh uh uh sheep have uh what on- that grows on their back? 412: Talking about wool? Interviewer: Yes sir. And uh how about a male hog? What's he called? 412: Boar. Now that's one you didn't use Interviewer: #1 Okay. # 412: #2 much. # Interviewer: Okay well 412: You'd say a male hog. Interviewer: Okay. Would you ever use anything else for uh {NS} 412: No I don't remember that we did. No. Interviewer: Okay uh uh what would you call a male uh uh hog that's been altered? 412: Uh Uh you just call him a well when they {C: laughing} cut me off Interviewer: {NW} 412: {X} Uh Good gracious. As many hogs as we've killed. Auxiliary: {X} 412: No. No no. {NS} {X} I can't even remember it now. Interviewer: Okay well I'll just go on. Maybe it- maybe you'll {X} Uh Uh 412: It'll be the same thing you've got down there. I'll be surprised. Interviewer: #1 Mm-hmm. # 412: #2 {D: Course uh} # Interviewer: #1 # 412: #2 # I never did hear but this one thing. Interviewer: It's like a wheel. 412: A wheel? Interviewer: Like the other word to begin with like that uh Does that make sense- like the- remember we were talking about uh uh {X} 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 that has one wheel on it. # 412: Yeah. Interviewer: And you uh carry a s- you mix cement in it. 412: Oh yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Is that the right term? 412: Yeah. This is a publicized term. If you were having a special sale there'd be certain prizes or special showings say uh uh such and such prizes for the barrows and such and such uh uh let's say for the best uh litter and then m- mother. Uh the sow. Interviewer: Okay. Would there- would there be any other terms besides barrow 412: #1 No that's the term I was thinking. Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 that you would say that that's the term- Okay. # 412: Now you'd spay the sow. Uh that wasn't uh well it just wasn't used often cuz uh they didn't do it much in our day but Interviewer: Try to get production. 412: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay and- and like a- a- a whole uh uh well full grown pig is called a what? 412: Well uh we go from pig to shoat and then to hog. Interviewer: Okay. When it was first born it was called a- it was called a pig? 412: Pig or baby pigs or something like that. Interviewer: Okay and then uh wh- what difference is there between a pig and a shoat? How big does it have to be to be a shoat? 412: Well I'd say around here uh after the uh litter had been weaned and they were on their own. And they were beginning to get I'd say anywhere from about uh {X} about seventy-five pound on. Interviewer: Seventy-fi- okay. Gotcha. Uh 412: Y- uh you wouldn't likely well here in this area today I suspect uh the term feeder pig I don't know what the minimum weight is. I believe it's uh sixty-f- maybe it's fifty or more. Seems to me it's sixty-five pounds and up. Interviewer: But it's above Yeah. I think. 412: And we say feeder pig. Shoat indicates an animal. It's uh getting a pretty good size. Interviewer: Okay. And uh uh what about the uh stiff hair on a- on a hog's back? What would you call those? 412: Uh just plain bristles. Interviewer: Alright. And the ivory things that come out of a hog's uh 412: Tusks. Interviewer: Alright. And you feed uh uh hogs in a uh a wooden What do you call that? 412: Well the old- the old one was trough. Interviewer: Okay. And if you had two or three uh of those you would ha- you'd say you have two or three 412: Well you would say troughs but {NS} we didn't feed 'em that way much. {NW} Interviewer: Okay. 412: They- I mean you'd- you never heard that term used much. Interviewer: What'd you use? 412: You didn't use. You'd just said you're feeding the hogs. {C: laughing} Interviewer: Okay. 412: {NW} Interviewer: How about uh 412: {NW} Interviewer: Uh do you have any names 412: Course we in modern times A- Alabama's been a pretty good n- hog state. Not like Illinois {X} {NS} And Georgia of course has been one of the top states in hog production. {NS} But uh {NS} in modern times we use the feeders widely. I wouldn't say every hog grazer's use feeders but I suspect most of 'em have if you checked up. Interviewer: Mm. 412: {X} feeders. They might just put corn in there or they might put corn and tankage in the Anyway if they were good producers they at least uh watch their uh feeders and if they thought they were eating too much tankage or too much corn they might ration the two. Interviewer: Mm. Now uh uh do you have any names for a hog that's grown up wild? 412: Well Well you- you hear {NS} uh times in Tennessee we don't have wild hogs much down here. {NS} they speak to you talk to you in uh Tennessee- east Tennessee they'll uh hunting the wild boar. They don't ever speak of the wild sow. I think those are Russian strain hogs. Interviewer: Russian strains? 412: Those that are uh loose in Tennessee. Interviewer: Oh. You mean someone brought 'em in and they just got loose? 412: Yeah they were imported. They seem to be more vicious and uh m- maybe more able to survive on their own. Interviewer: Mm. 412: Then uh well I'm sure that's truer than our modern hog. Course we used to have the razor backs too. Specially a little bit farther south of us in- down there in that Florida north Florida country. Razor backs or rattlesnakes and what else {X} gophers I reckon. Interviewer: Razor backs rattlesnakes and gophers. 412: Yeah. {C: laughing} Interviewer: And then gopher in that sense is a- is a uh is a uh turtle? 412: Well {NW} Yeah I believe so. Interviewer: Turtle. 412: It wouldn't have been the the animal gopher as I remember. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Up here it would be gopher but you never heard that least I wouldn't say up here. Uh {NW} Uh gophers up here would mean a s- type a' squirrel or chipmunk. Interviewer: Oh yeah. 412: We've got a few of 'em right across the road here preacher has some trouble with 'em. I had to learn that in my early days. Difference between a gopher in north Florida and up here. {C: laughing} {NW} Interviewer: Yeah when I- whenever I hear the term gopher I always mean I always mean the turtle. 412: Yeah yeah. Interviewer: But when I was up Illinois someone said a go- gopher they mean a groundhog. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. 412: Well now I- I our gopher up here is not the groundhog. He's uh he's one a' the chipmunks as I remember. He's a right pretty little rascal. Uh striped back. And not as long as a squirrel. Even a cat squirrel. Interviewer: What kind of squirrel have you got around here? 412: {D: I mean} pretty much fox squirrels and cat squirrels. We used to have flying squirrels but no more. I haven't seen a flying squirrel in goodness knows when. Interviewer: Do you have uh color different squirrels? You know the different kinda color squirrel like uh 412: Well the fox squirrel is a different color from uh the cat squirrel. Interviewer: What color is the cat squirrel? 412: Gray. Interviewer: #1 And the {X} # 412: #2 Saw one # You didn't see that one c- no he- uh he ran in front of me. One crossed the road in front a' me when we came back from the museum. Interviewer: Oh I see. 412: The cat- the- the fox squirrel you know is a rich brown. Uh Uh real pretty. Interviewer: Kinda reddish color? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: What are some a' the different kinds a' animals you got around here uh that you might 412: #1 Oh uh # Interviewer: #2 uh that are still here # or 412: Almost all of 'em except uh animals like wolverines and porcupine and course we only had those northern deer. Most a' the deer we have are the Virginia white tailed deer and there's some crosses in here. And then you got pretty much everything down from that uh Interviewer: You got any a' those animals that uh got the white stripes down the back {D: give off a} 412: #1 Oh yeah. {C: laughing} # Interviewer: #2 smell? # What do you call those? 412: Well we got uh two a' those uh one's a pole cat and let's see. What is the other one? Uh There's a difference in the striping. I can't tell you which is which and the- just plain old pole cats the one we used to have to fight. Uh What is uh what other name for that rascal? Auxiliary: Skunk? 412: Skunk. Yeah. And we would use the term more or less interchangeably. But they're two different species. Interviewer: There are? 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 {X} two. # 412: #1 # Interviewer: #2 # 412: You see {NW} We have 'em {NW} We- I- I- I said it to you this morning. We live in an entirely different era here all through this area from what it was when I was a boy. I used to try to trap a little and I couldn't. I was a poor trapper but I couldn't even catch uh any opossums in those days. Well goodness alive in uh {X} which is twenty-five and n- {X} years ago. He could catch a uh well he didn't wanna catch skunk but he could. And of course uh opossum which is a low fur but he could catch beaver he catch muskrat {NW} Uh Auxiliary: Mink. 412: Mink. Uh Auxiliary: Raccoon. 412: Yeah. Raccoon- raccoon. I don't believe we had any we've not had any weasels in here to my knowledge. Let's see. What else? Uh Well that'd be pretty much- well otters. He never trapped for otters but there are otters over here in the the southeastern part a' the county. Interviewer: Oh yeah. Well 412: And we just got beavers everywhere. Interviewer: Do you have that many beavers here? I didn't 412: #1 Ooh man # Interviewer: #2 really # 412: Uh uh the forest people they're raising up these days about the beaver. Interviewer: There getting to be too many of 'em? 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Maybe they oughta try to uh export a few of 'em 412: #1 Let me see. Sally {X} # Interviewer: #2 cause there's some places that just have a shortage. # 412: Wasn't it in that sort of conservation meeting that they showed us this? Think it was. Auxiliary: Yeah uh-huh. 412: And I was trying to think the chief explanation they gave for the increase in beavers What did he say that Auxiliary: Well for one thing they put a ban on trapping 'em Interviewer: #1 Oh. # Auxiliary: #2 in one place # 412: #1 Yeah but # Auxiliary: #2 in Louisiana. # 412: uh he had some uh {NS} conservation explanation for the beavers. They'd kept 'em under control. {X} remember what it was. Interviewer: Mm. 412: Anyway. Interviewer: You got a lot a' forest here. 412: Huh? Interviewer: You got a lot a' forest and water here for one thing. 412: Well we had the water and forest before. Not as much as we've got now. Anyway uh we've got beavers. I'm not sure what the status of things is right now but {NS} Dale has had uh beavers right there in the low part a' the place in recent years. At one time it was getting to be a problem but I think they disappeared for a while and I- he hadn't even mentioned beavers on our property in recent I don't know what I'd we've talked about any beavers on the home place or his place adjoined for a good while. But they are- they are all over this country. And course you know how they build the dams Interviewer: Right. 412: and you know you can kill a forest uh just by one or two feet a' water depending on your species. {NS} And that's that's what a lot a' the forestry people are raising up about. Interviewer: I can understand that. And then I- well you know it's just up up- up north in a lot a' places the beaver has just become absolut- almost extinct. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: #1 And uh # 412: #2 Yeah. # Interviewer: they don't have the problem at all. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: Right. It's surprising that you'd have a problem here with the beaver. 412: Well it- it's become a real problem. Now uncle Gus who was papa's second oldest brother he was a a great hunter. Uh he was not a sportsman. {NS} But he- he was a shrewd He woulda made a perfect trapper {C: mispronunciation; corrects himself next line} trapper in a in an area- in a uh land where uh game was {NW} profuse. But uh he told me years ago before his death. He was killed when a car jammed him up against his store. He was sitting in front of his store and car jumped the curb and {NS} pinned him right across here. {NS} Uh {C: background noise} turkeys disappeared down here. Well they used to feed right up to this uh uh drain uh uh g- gully uh right back of the church here. The water drains that way and goes on into large stream and into the Saugahatchee. {NS} And he told me that uh he'd been getting turkeys each year {NW} right across the road here right down that hollow. And in the summer- I think it was early summer of uh seventeen he discovered that uh this hen had raised a large brood a' {X} And he determined to catch 'em all. So he started by putting up a tight fence just on one side and he put corn down there and let 'em get used to that. Then he {NW} Then he put up a parallel fence uh what he considered about the right width. I don't know how wide it was. Then he threw corn all down inside the two parallel fences. And they got accustomed to that and not suspicious so then I don't know whether he put the top on next. He probably would have. Then he put on- I'll say he put on the top next. And he fed 'em a while. Then the next step I think was to close up the back end. I would guess he would have put the top on before he closed the back end anyway. That would have been the steps. Then I don't remember how he said he {NW} See he headed the thing facing {NW} The- down the flow a' the water so that they'd be coming up the woods towards uh- they used to have peas out there. And I- maybe he was growing the peas himself. And they love peas. Well anyway he kept on by stages and kept putting down corn and getting them lulled to the danger. And finally he got to the stage where they were coming into this uh trap and coming in through the door that he'd made for it. And his last step of course was to build his trap. {NS} for the door. And uh they would still come in regularly. Then he took a long string. I don't know whether he used a wire part out of what. And set his trigger to the trap so all he had to do was to head uh- hide up the in the pea patch with a long string and as soon as he saw the {NW} turkey hen lead a brood into this pen to get the corn he just pulled the trap and that's what he did. Just wiped out the last turkey in this area. Interviewer: Oh that was all of 'em? 412: That was the last one. He knew it was the last one. He was pretty sure it was. He said he never saw one after that. Interviewer: Hmm. Auxiliary: #1 {X} # Interviewer: #2 You say they're # starting to come out though. Auxiliary: He didn't feel bad about it did he? 412: No. He didn't have any scruples at all. It's {NW} one of the things I always held against {D: old Gus.} That's why I said to you he wasn't a sportsman at all. Interviewer: Mm. 412: We haven't got many sportsmen. Interviewer: People round here just like to 412: Uh well #1 we got # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 412: so many a' these uh uh college kids uh Give me something today and to heck with tomorrow. I don't think we got many sportsmen like Bill and Prince. {NS} Uh sometimes I wonder if he was a sportsman. Auxiliary: #1 {X} # 412: #2 {X} # I don't much think he is. Interviewer: Now who's that? Prince? 412: No. That's Bill's father in law. Auxiliary: {D: But} 412: But uh s- Bill and Prince are certainly sportsmen. And I think Buddy's one Sally. Auxiliary: Yeah. 412: This is a veterinary inspector. Bill and Buddy and Prince work closely together. Interviewer: Takes a lot a' control to be a sportsman. Auxiliary: That they are. 412: Well if they'll- if they were long headed- had any forward looking senses wouldn't be so hard to be a sportsman. But the- this other element reasons well if I don't get it today somebody else will. Interviewer: Uh 412: And the first thing you know is you hadn't got anything and nobody else either. Interviewer: Nobody'll get anything. Auxiliary: #1 Well I think # 412: #2 {X} # Auxiliary: that's why they just sorta go wild when they get in this area. There is a lotta 412: #1 game and # Auxiliary: #2 Yeah # they have come from areas where there wasn't and they just wanna kill without thinking. Interviewer: Well it's been my experience that there's- there's usually a lotta game uh anywhere you go as long as you're willing to let it live there. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: You know. 412: Yeah. The Indians never destroyed {NS} their stock. The game stock. But they didn't hunt for anything but to live uh for meat. They didn't hunt to kill. Interviewer: Right. Yeah I remember one time uh my uh granddad and I went hunting and he decided he wanted to do some coon hunting. Some raccoon hunting. And cuz there used to be that {X} #1 back then. # 412: #2 Mm-hmm. # Interviewer: I guess- do they do that around here very often? 412: Uh well uh you see {NW} deer and uh turkey hunting is so popular there that they're sorta looked down on if they hunt coon {C: laughing} Interviewer: #1 Oh I see. # 412: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: Well he just liked it for the sport. He 412: #1 Well it's a good sport. Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # And uh you know I didn't like it too much running all night long through the swamps 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # {NW} He enjoyed it. 412: Well it's good hunting. Uh My great grandfather was a great coon hunter. They said he kept record until he uh had notched three hundred and eighty-four. And uh He- he wouldn't hesitate to go hunting by himself. But he always carried his dogs on- so he could put 'em on a leash. And he always carried a sharp ax. And he- if the tree was there and the coon was in the tree Interviewer: Yeah. 412: He'd cut it down. {C: laughing} Interviewer: #1 Well # 412: #2 Uh # Interviewer: One thing I- one thing I like about coon- coon hunting myself is that uh you you can- a coon will give you a good fight if you catch him. 412: Yeah. Interviewer: #1 If you're not # 412: #2 Yeah. # Interviewer: careful he can tear your dog apart. 412: Yeah. Have you heard Jerry Clower and his coon hunt? Interviewer: No. Uh 412: You oughta take time {D: enough} before you leave to listen to that thing. Interviewer: #1 Alright # 412: #2 It's # it's a classic. Interviewer: #1 Alright. # 412: #2 You don't # know Jerry Clower do you? Interviewer: I don't think so. 412: Well Jerry and I are kin to the same folks. A lotta the same folks. I don't think he's any kin to me. But at least two of 'em my family married Clower's and all trace right back here to Auburn. Jerry's a ranch man on the Mississippi, the other men too. He's not a great comedian. Uh he started out selling fertilizer. Uh but he- he can tell things in a way that {NW} it just sets you roaring. Interviewer: Yeah. Kind of uh- well is it kinda country humor? 412: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: I guess I better get back and ask you these. Uh uh If you had a pig and you didn't want him to grow up to be a boar what would you do to him? 412: Castrate him. Interviewer: Any other special terms you might use away from uh 412: Yeah. We- uh Let me see. Uh I have heard- this is not quite the way they said it but I've heard- heard 'em say well we gonna take his manhood. Interviewer: Okay. 412: Uh and I've- I've heard some other terms but nothing occurs to me right quick. {NW} No. They'd a- sometimes say well we gonna make a gentleman of him. And let me see if I can think of anything else. No. I don't- I don't think of anything else right now. Interviewer: Okay. How about the noise made by a calf when it's being weaned? 412: You mean if- if it's away from its mama? Interviewer: Yeah. What- what kinda noise it makes? 412: Well we'd say {D: bleated} Interviewer: {D: bleated} Okay. And uh what about the noise that uh a cow makes about feeding time? A gentle cow noise. 412: Uh Well you mean satisfaction or uh sort of a plaintive Interviewer: Well no just a- well 412: Lowing? Interviewer: #1 Yeah. Gentle # 412: #2 {X} # Interviewer: gentle noise. 412: #1 Yeah. Yeah. We'd say lowing. # Interviewer: #2 Not- nothing uh nothing hostile. # Okay. Uh And- and how about a gentle noise that a horse might make? 412: Well usually we'd say whinny. Interviewer: Uh a- a- a- 412: Or knicker. Interviewer: Knicker? Okay. You ever heard uh winker? 412: No. Winker? Interviewer: Winker? 412: No. Interviewer: Okay. I'm just wondering cuz that's one I got down south {X} 412: Sure enough. Winker. Interviewer: Yeah. 412: Well that- now that shows you how much difference there is uh And I- by the way you remind me of something I was telling Dale about the types you were looking for and particularly this older group. {NW} And I told him that I had told you I didn't think we could find anybody like that except pappy down here Who has I told you eighteen but it's twenty children {D: Bill said} And I- then I said to Bill you might go {X} go and {C: beep} and then Bill said well he can find uh somebody like that down in that section. And he told me one man. I forget his name. And it is true that uh all a' that south eastern section is a is somewhat different from this area a' the county just like these hill people in Tallapoosa county. Those red hills that were run after from closing of lake Martin in uh twenty-seven I think it was. Are quite different from from this area. Interviewer: Mm. A lot of it has to do with the type of family that 412: #1 I think so. Think so. # Interviewer: #2 settled there. You know the influence and everything. # 412: Yeah. Interviewer: You know I think uh I may be back in the fall. Or not in the fall but uh {NW} late summer and do some more work in this area because uh there is uh a lot a' difference between uh 412: #1 Yeah. Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 south and here. I might even # come back and finish up all these different 412: Mm-hmm. Interviewer: piece interviews {X} 412: Let me get- excuse me. {NW} When you through now I'm gonna give you a tip and uh just something you can put in back of your head. Interviewer: Okay. {NW} 412: #1 Uh # Interviewer: #2 Okay. # 412: One a' the striking things to me and I being an Auburn man I can be somewhat biased though I get along pretty well with the good Alabama people {NW} uh {NW} There has for the th- the last thirty or forty years I'd say thirty years but I've gotten to learn enough to have some judgment about the basic thing There is a striking difference to me between the people who live around Auburn university and the people who live around Tuscaloosa. Uh Just a few miles out of Tuscaloosa they have some real lawless elements. And some real backward elements. Now I can blame all of it on the nearness to the coal mine. You kn- course the coal miners uh they were well I guess it took a rough sort to survive in the mines in the early days. And that's I'm sure uh been perpetuated over generations. Course uh coal mining started in the early days and Jefferson county I think had its first settlers of any consequence about eighteen seventeen. And it's said that they had been mining coal somewhere and other ever since they got in there. Well they're still a rough sort. A lot of 'em. I don't mean they're bad people. It's just- again it's just a a different attitude toward life. Interviewer: {X} Uh what about law and order? They got 412: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 {X}? # 412: No they got the other sort. Interviewer: {X} 412: They've had uh Interviewer: Do you have that around here? I mean you've got a fairly good 412: No. Well {NW} There's lawlessness everywhere now. Uh we just have a lotta trouble with college boys and some college girls. We've been having all sorts a' trouble with the negroes. Uh and I think I've got the answer to the negro problem. And we're not going to get any better or any improvement there until we get a different attitude among federal judges. I think some of us who {NS} had felt like we were well I know that I got cussed and abused and everything else for uh trying to take up for the negroes over the years. And at one time uh there was an arm a' the government trying to prove that I was a communist. They sent agents in here. We know they went down on the farm snooping around and then I found they'd been snooping around in Birmingham. But goodness alive uh today uh with all the asininities a' the federal judiciary and so many of our uh federal uh state judges superior not superior. District court judge I think they're obliged to just make decisions on the basis of what William or Douglas or someone else said. Uh Uh I think I'm- I'm worse than the conservatives in there- in that I did try to be forward looking in those years gone by. Just uh the other day this was a Sally this is six weeks ago. I think this is just before we left on that trip. Wasn't it? When Sarah came up here? We've got a We've got a water authority here. We've got about fourteen hundred customers now. Whites. Blacks. All sorts. Trailer people. Home people. Well we've got a uh a negro family down the road here {NW} Their mother worked for mama a number of years and I've known this Sarah Wood nearly about all her life ever since she was half grown. Her reputation was that uh all of her children were illegitimate. She has a husband. I don't know whether it's common law {X} wood. But that's beside the point. She couldn't- never has been able to get along with our water manager. Water authority man. And I think there's some fault on both sides.