Interviewer:  If uh if you would in just your ordinary, conversational voice count up to twenty, please. Uh watch this, and see how it's recording.
556:  One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine. Ten. Eleven. Twelve. Thirteen. Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Nineteen. Twenty.
Interviewer:  Alright, sir. And uh would you say the days of the week and the months of the year?
556:  Sunday. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. Saturday. January. February. March. April. May. June. July. August. September. October. November. December.
Interviewer:  Alright. {NW} That'll do very nicely. {NS} Ignore it. These are wonderful gadgets. They're really uh much better systems of recording this
556:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 material than trying to take notes. #
556:  As president found out. #1 I have a I have his book I've got I got the book. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # Yeah, so that's uh. I uh this thing is the same tape machine that Rosemary {NS} uses.
556:  The eighteen minute gap.
Interviewer:  A pretty refined recorder, but it does act up occasionally. And uh I was struggling with it one day and the lady I was interviewing a lady who was very patient {X} watching me work this knob, but it still wouldn't pick up the voice. She said, "Oh the more I look at you, the more working the tape recorder more, I think you must be a Republican."
556:  {C: laughing} Well, I tell you I I like to vote for the man and not the party. Friend says I voted for Eisenhower. {X} Oh I voted for Goldwater. #1 So I don't think #
Interviewer:  #2 This uh #
556:  party business.
Interviewer:  Most unfortunate uh thing I I don't know how it strikes you, but it really does uh. I read this morning that {X} six months.
556:  Sixteenth one that's gone to jail. That miserable?
Interviewer:  It really is. Uh. And you well it's {X}. It really does. It's it's a bad thing to live through.
556:  I know it. It's
Interviewer:  Hard to uh take.
556:  Political expediency.
Interviewer:  {NW} Now those apparently there's no no end in sight it's
556:  No, no, it just keep on going worse. Bad to worse.
Interviewer:  I'd like to start with uh some questions about the farm.
556:  Right.
Interviewer:  Well, that uh there were some items yesterday that uh we were talking about that I'd like to get on tape. In case we don't uh get uh we don't get them again. You said that you used to take um shell of a corn and take it to the mill. And one day they couldn't take care of you. Uh cause he was what? Uh.
556:  #1 Uh, are you recording now? #
Interviewer:  #2 Uh. # Yes, we're all set.
556:  Well, uh the miller told me I couldn't get any meal that day because Uncle Abner was pecking on the rock. Well, I had no idea what pecking on the rock meant, but I I heard this noise inside the mill house, and I went in there and this old nigger had the mill stone out. This enormous mill stone weighed probably two-hundred and fifty pounds, and he had a hammer and a coal chiller and it was He was sharpening the rock, see? There was uh indentations on the rock that we could smooth in time and wouldn't grind the corn well, so he had to sharpen 'em with an empty just about all day to sharpen the rock. I'll show you the rock out there when we get through.
Interviewer:  See, I'd like to take a picture of it.
556:  And that's that's what he was doing. so I had to go back the next day and get the meal.
Interviewer:  And I think uh at the time we ask you uh whether you used the word turn for that amount
556:  Oh yeah. We used to uh I've often heard my grandfather tell one of the nigger hands to bring in a turn of wood. Armful of wood. and he often used that term. {X} was a common term turn.
Interviewer:  It just meant a certain amount, uh depending
556:  Well, just an arm or- #1 No. #
Interviewer:  #2 Was a turn. #
556:  He'd say bring in a turn of wood. Well, that just meant an armload of {D: starting} wood for the fire. {NS}
Interviewer:  And uh you also mentioned uh talking about birds and the peckerwood song.
556:  No. {C: laughing} Well, the old slaves and the old uh niggers on the place, they still sang these old songs dating back I don't know how far and that particular song I remember some verses of different I I'm sorry I didn't write 'em all down at the time. But this particular song ran like this. Peckerwood, peckerwood, peckerwood. What makes your head so red? The jaybird stole my Yankee cap, and the sun done burnt my head. In other words, after the war the confederates or um federal soldiers who we had a uh This was occupied town for several years, a company of soldiers. And when they got rid of the old uniform, they just threw them to the side, and the niggers put them on. And the blue caps they'd said half the niggers in town had on a a federal army cap. It was a blue cap but with the the. The blue jay has a blue head, you see and so that's where that came from.
Interviewer:  That's peckerwood song.
556:  Yeah. My Yankee cap.
Interviewer:  And uh you also mentioned that interesting how a change in patrol
556:  Oh. Yeah, well, they used to sing this old song. I remember one verse. It ran run nigger run The patrol will catch you. Run nigger run. It's almost day. That nigger run, that nigger flew, that nigger tore his shirt in two. Run nigger run. The patrol will catch you. Run nigger run. It's almost day. Well I was just a child, I used to ask what was a patrol, and they'd say oh now that's bad folks they get you. You gotta watch out for the patrollers. And afterwards learning what it meant was the patrols. who patrolled the roads at night to see that the slaves didn't run away or get into A slave couldn't had to have a pass, in other words. If he had a pass, it was okay. If he had a pass from his master to visit another plantation, that was fine. They just let him go. But if he didn't have that pass. They took him back home. Where he belonged so.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Patrol the runaway. And uh. I'd also like you to uh to recall your your mammy and uh the Uncle Remus.
556:  Oh. My dear old Aunt Jane. My old colored mammy. And she was up in her eighties at the time. I was a child and her father was a African savage brought over here and she was one of the finest, nicest, cleanest old Christian women I ever knew in my life was my dear old Aunt Jane. And at night the people all went over to the church about a mile away and left me at home with Aunt Jane and we'd sit in front of the big old log fire and she'd tell me these Tales Br'er rabbit and the tar baby and so on and so and uh she would string 'em out. I imagine it'd take an hour to tell some of 'em. It's just entertaining me, see? so I find after I got up some years in age I bought a copy of Uncle of George {X} Chandler Harris' Uncle Remus. and lo and behold, out of all the tales, I knew 'em just about by heart cause old Aunt Jane had told me. She could neither read nor write, so they were bound to have been handed down to her from previous generations, but there they those tales were just exactly like George Chandler Harris had written them down. and I knew 'em all.
Interviewer:  I think you also uh made an interesting comment on uh how Aunt Jane's uh sometimes a determined woman and uh {C: laughing} uh you said that she where did she worship uh?
556:  She went to our church. She wouldn't go to the colored church. I remember one night about a mile from our house they had a The colored folks had a big protracted meeting up there, and persuaded Aunt Jane to go, much against her will, but she went one night with the rest of 'em and the next day she came back and I heard the other cook the other nigger say, "Aunt Jane, what happened to you last night?" Said uh You like to broke up the meeting. And I said, "Aunt Jane, what'd you say?" Oh, nothing. I said, "What was it?" She said, "Well, I'll tell you." Said It was a hot night and in August and one of the big, fat sisters got to shouting. Jumped up and shouting, "What must I do? What must I do? What must I do?" She said, "I'll tell you right quick what to do. Mama said you go home and wash." Said, "You stink!"
Interviewer:  {C: laughing}
556:  And that just brought the house down, and she didn't go back up there anymore.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  Said I'll tell you right quick. {C: laughing} So she'd come down here to visit us quite often. She'd come down. Her daughter was our cook here in Macon, and she'd come down to visit us. and on Sunday morning, she put on her She had a a brooch she wore that my grandmother gave her and little white collar round her satin black dress and she'd put that dress out and go just as walk just as straight as this First Baptist Church here as anybody. Just stepped and nobody asked her a question. She'd always gone to white church, and she didn't know any better. And she was always welcome. And she walked as a straight in that white church up there and take her seat. {NW} I remember the first time I went in there one day and went to sit down, looked down, there sat Aunt Jane and was very much embarrassed. But {NS} it was alright. {NS} She was some character, I'll tell you. She was quite a character.
Interviewer:  Alright.
556:  And a tiny little woman. She couldn't have weighed over a hundred pounds. Barely just.
Interviewer:  Very uh spirited and intelligent woman. I uh I'd like to ask you to answer questions about the farm that you remember. The uh different buildings outside in addition to the home.
556:  Well, of course, down down a slight incline was a big barn probably possibly two hundred yards from the house was a big barn which had a loft where they put the hay in and uh on the right as you entered was a corn crib which is a room well probably big as this where they kept the corn and then the horse stalls and mules were down each side of the barn and the hay and the fodder was kept up in the loft which is a lodge place up there, and that's where all the hay and fodder was kept.
Interviewer:  Do you have uh did your grandma sit in any small greens?
556:  #1 No. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  No, before my day they use used they formerly raised a lot of wheat. There was there were wheat mills that the farmers around here never bought flour. They all raised you on wheat. And there were a lot of wheat mills that ground the wheat. But when I came up, they they had discontinued the wheat mill but the corn mill was still running. Some of them ran by water power and some by steam power. And they were still running and that's where they got all the meal from, and it was good meal. You take water ground corn meal. That's the best bread in the world. It's It's ground cold you know it don't heat up like this This uh meal they got now?
Interviewer:  I was wondering uh whether you had anything called a granary, greenery, something like that.
556:  No, the corn was all uh stored in the crib unshucked and when they wanted to go to the mill, they had to get it out and shut it and put it in sack take it down to the grist mill.
Interviewer:  Did you have uh small sheds for tools or {X}?
556:  Well, yeah. You had a shed for the tools and the main building out in the yard was a smokehouse. Now that was the important place. That's where they kept all the hams and bacon and sausages stored and and the barrels of molasses and the niggers would come up on Saturday, and they'd get their meat and meal and molasses, whatever it was, you know and And that was good meat, too. Stored uh. These hams and shoulders and bacon and sausage. This old aunt of mine, I thought she could make the best smoked sausage in the world. Stuffed it, you know, and
Interviewer:  Where'd she stuff it in?
556:  Stuffed it in the intestines or the, you know. Had to stuff 'em. {NW} And then she'd Tie it up about like in a oh maybe three feet long and Hang it over the Beams and smoke it uh with hickory smoke. Boy, that was good sausage.
Interviewer:  Uh, speaking of sausage. Uh, did you ever hear of liver sausage or blood sausage?
556:  Yeah, but that's that's uh German. I've heard of it, but we didn't have anything like that. All I saw it was made out of
Interviewer:  Or anything called a cheese or {X}?
556:  Well, they made what they called uh Hog head cheese, which was souse. You know, so you know what souse is. That was that's that's what the souse that we called it.
Interviewer:  But nothing of the blood or?
556:  No. Uh.
Interviewer:  Uh. {NS} The place where you keep the cows uh where were they kept inside and out?
556:  Well, they had what they called the cow pen. They the cows were driven up at night to be milked and the calves were kept away from them, you see and during the day the calves were kept in this pen and they were driven up at night from the pasture and milked and and then when they got through milking 'em they turned 'em out with the calves. Calves got what was left. I used to I had six calves to milk day and night. {NW}
Interviewer:  Um when they uh the cow would be uh separated from the calf. {C: coughs} What what words would you use to describe the sound that the two would make with the uh with the calf uh? Cow would low.
556:  Oh, the cow low. Oh sure, they'd call their calves. You see, you kept the calves separated from the cows during the day because the calves would get all the milk if it's if they ran with the cows. So you'd you'd you kept your calves in the pen during the day and And turned the cows out to pasture. Well, they came in that night. You're still you let the calves for just a short while start 'til the milk came down. Then you're not getting any and push the calf off, got through milking him, then you turn it back, turn your calves back in.
Interviewer:  When you separate the calves from the cows, what kind of sounds would the calves make?
556:  Oh they would of course they would. The calves would low and so were the cows. They would Yeah. That was
Interviewer:  The reason I ask a question like that is that some places I'm told the sound was described as a bleat. That point that the cows would bleat.
556:  Well, the calves now they they have a different tone from the cows of course. The cows would low, you know, and the calves would uh Well, it was just a small imitation of the of the adult low one.
Interviewer:  And uh how about the hogs? Where did you keep {X}?
556:  Oh boy, that hog killing was something. Yeah, they uh kept the hogs. Uh long in the fall, they'd build a big pen and put the fattening hogs in this pen. Some eight or ten and and pour the corn to 'em and just get 'em just as fat as they could be. And my grandfather would actually watch the weather, you know, whether there would be a cold spell. He had no refrigeration. And he would figure well it's gonna be cold. Alright, we'll kill hogs, so everything came in now that was a big day. All the colored folks came in and their hands and they had a hog killing. Scald him and scrape the hair off of him. You know, that was a big day. And we loved to eat the liver on a stick over the fire. And we'd take the bladders and blow 'em up and make balloons out of 'em. But that was a big day and oh lord it would be terrible if the weather turned hot and lose all your meat. And we just prayed it would stay cold 'til we could get it all cut up and salted down and then after a cer- certain time in the salter, put it in the smokehouse and smoke it. It looked like the house was on fire the the smoke you know boiling out of every crack and crevice in the roof in the sides.
Interviewer:  What kind of smoke uh what did you
556:  Hickory smoke. Hickory smoke. {C: coughing}
Interviewer:  The uh you mentioned the uh scraping uh the hog. Did you have a special name for the hair that stood up at the back if it got mad?
556:  Bristles.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Called 'em bristles. See they had a big pot there with the boiling water and you'd put the hog in that boil after you killed him and then that'd loosen the hair and you'd scape the hair off of him. You never skin a hog. You scrape the hair off it, you see. You scraped it off.
Interviewer:  The two uh long teeth.
556:  Niggers called 'em tushes. {NW} We had wild hogs down in the swamp. We could live close to a swamp. And the niggers would go down quite often wild hog hunting. And I remember one uh one night one of the niggers brought me back he said I brought you something I said what is it I got you a pair of tushes. Tusks. They were about that long. They were vicious things. He'd knocked them out with an ax and brought 'em to me. I kept 'em for years and I let 'em get away from it. Those things would turn back outside the mouth.
Interviewer:  Now these would be would they have long {C: coughing} excuse me uh long snouts?
556:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  Yeah, so they really were
556:  Called 'em pine rooters. Long snouts pine rooters and uh they could run and lean and lanky. Vicious, too. Uh, we had an old nigger named Scott Howard but one of the hands there They came back laughing at Scott the next morning One of these hogs got after Scott and he ran to the little tree and right up the little tree and the little tree bent down with him. And that hog said it was just missing him by inches. He was hanging at the top of the tree. And that hog was snapping at him. One of them ran up and shot him.
Interviewer:  Uh I've heard that they actually can kill a man.
556:  Oh, they can. They're vicious. You take up in the mountains of North Carolina where they have those wild boars. They're vicious things, especially if you get around where the where the young are. I had one it wasn't a wild hog jumped on me knocked me down one day I was squirrel hunting and I got too close to where she had pigs. And that sow made a lunge at me, knocked me down. Didn't bite me anything, but boy.
Interviewer:  It's really ambitious. Uh, I'd like to ask you more questions about the uh different kinds of meat {NW} later on maybe about the about the hog meat. How about the chickens? Did you keep
556:  Oh yeah. Chickens, guineas, turkeys, ducks.
Interviewer:  Oh, where did you keep the chickens?
556:  Just turn 'em loose. Let 'em fend for themselves.
Interviewer:  If uh they if you had a setting hen or chickens would you keep her in a certain place?
556:  Oh we had a we had a big chicken house with a nest rows of nests down each side with the roosts uh in the middle.
Interviewer:  {C: coughing} Did you have a smaller place to keep uh keep the chickens uh small chicks?
556:  No, we just turned 'em loose. We had uh what we had out in the backyard was what my mother called a fattening coop. It was in two stories. And we always kept the chickens these chickens to eat in this coop where we fed 'em. And there as the top one would They would progress. See? The top coop was the oldest chickens. They were the fattest. And then they would slow down, you'd move them up. Move these from the bottom up there.
Interviewer:  {D: fryings or?}
556:  Uh frying sized chickens and I remember one day. We had a good friend in Mobile with the name Abe {NS} He ran a big liquor store. By the way, I have some of his jugs right there now. Abe {NS} was a big friend of our family's and one day during the hog killing day course for hog on hog killing day all you had for lunch was bare spare ribs and backed bones and liver and so forth. And just before lunch, Abe drove up in a buggy. This big he was a Jew. Hundred percent Jew. My mother said, "Oh, there's Abe. He can't eat all this pork and hog meat." And she told the cook, "Run out to the coop fattening coop quick and get a couple of chickens and fry for Abe." So the cook tore out out there, killed two chickens, and had 'em all fixed and Abe didn't touch chickens. He he was grinning from one ear to the other with those spare ribs. And we thought he didn't touch the chicken. I thought that was ridiculous. That Jew sitting there eating that hog meat. He said {D: shucks, did I eat} He said I haven't got that much religion. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  Bet he enjoyed it. Uh {C: clearing throat} the the hen uh uh nest of eggs uh you would call do you remember the hen that would sit on be on the nest.
556:  Yeah, she was a setting hen.
Interviewer:  Setting hen.
556:  And it marked the eggs. Always mark the eggs. My grand- my grandmother would take the egg and a pencil and mark 'em all the way around. I can still mark that egg just like she did. To keep to tell them from the fresh eggs, you know. You know sometimes the hen might drop a little egg in the nest, but she'd mark these eggs with a pencil. Put twelve or fifteen eggs under each hen. And they had little coops for them at night to go in. Little egg coops. Looked a bit like the letter A. A and the coops out in the little yard. Course they'd when the hen would first hatch, he'd put her in that coop and shut her up. For maybe a day and so she'd get used to that particular coop and at night she'd go back there with the chickens, and she'd let the door down at night. So they
Interviewer:  How about the uh to to feed the hogs, you you penned them up only to fatten them.
556:  Just to {C: phone ringing} trap 'em. Just {NS} Excuse me, I {NS}
Interviewer:  Would you {C: clearing throat} feed the hogs scraps or table?
556:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  And and how would that be
556:  Slop, they called it. Yeah, just table scraps that uh had a big uh can out the kitchen window and anything edible that was left over had a trough uh you know uh shaped like a But their main fare was corn. To fatten 'em up. Fatten 'em on corn. Oh, they got the scraps from the table and anything like that that they would eat.
Interviewer:  When you fed the animals, did you have a certain name for the time of day? Was that uh around {X}
556:  Well, they generally fed the hogs at the in the late afternoon, night.
Interviewer:  I mean, would you call it feed time, chore time?
556:  Yeah, feed. That's feed time. Hog feeding time, we called it. Hog feeding.
Interviewer:  And uh while we're on the subject of hogs, would you explain the different names like uh gilt and choat and barrow and
556:  {NW} Yeah, well Course uh uh At a castration uh that was one of the main things. We had an old neighbor who did mostly castration, and she also spayed the sows. And they were to be fattened, you see. But the others. And uh and of course. Some of the some of the men and some of the people that turn their hogs loose in the swamp. And the cows a big swamp there and they would mark the hogs by cutting a certain mark in the ears, you know. Swallow fork in the left ear and a crop in the right one. Each farmer had his own And so he could tell his hogs by his marks on the ears. And uh well I had one old uncle who lived down there he never did get his cows out to stay in the swamp all the time. Went down to the swamp to milk 'em. That was a river swamp. He had a big pen right close by. Right on the river. I've gone down there with him, helped him drive up the cows in the swamp. He'd milk 'em. He had two five gallon cans across a horse's back. It was about two miles down after where he milked. And when we'd get back to the house with those two cans of milk, I've often seen pieces of butter floating around in that milk. It would churn up the horse's Yeah, and a lot of people don't believe that, but I've seen that butter and that milk
Interviewer:  It's reasonable uh these words uh gilt and uh shoat if you've ever used them.
556:  Well a shoat yeah a shoat was a young hog. Anything was called a shoat. In fact, I got a first cousin whose nickname is shoat today and he's still called him shoat. He looked like he looked like a little pig when he was a kid and we got to calling him shoat. {NS} His nickname today is still shoat.
Interviewer:  Gilts or barrow?
556:  Well, a barrow was a castrated boar.
Interviewer:  And a gilt? Do you remember that term at all?
556:  I remember that term. I think that was a sow that had been operated on, I believe it was.
Interviewer:  Did you uh feel free to say boar around uh women?
556:  Sure.
Interviewer:  You did?
556:  Just like a bull, ain't no difference.
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  A bull.
Interviewer:  What would you use for the male horse?
556:  Stud.
Interviewer:  Stud?
556:  Stud.
Interviewer:  And this was spoken freely around women. It was not, there was no
556:  #1 Well, I #
Interviewer:  #2 Temptation #
556:  I don't I don't remember any I know a bull was a bull and a male hog was a boar. As far as I can remember there.
Interviewer:  There are some areas of the state uh people recalled a great sense of delicacy about around women they'd never say anything but male. Uh male horse and male male hog.
556:  Well, that might've been so, but I I don't remember that.
Interviewer:  Well, this this region may very well have been more sophisticated and not uh
556:  I know we felt no inhibitions at all about talking about a bull. Uh. This, that, and the other. I I can't I can't remember any
Interviewer:  I think she uh uh this is a little bit off the subject, but is there a difference is you sense in the big sense of social difference between the hill country and plantation country and uh uh are you
556:  Well, I up up where you see this prairie section runs through here. You know, from Tupelo down through here, we live in this here what they call a black prairie section. The niggers call it prairies {C: pronounced prayers}. I heard Dr. Cook make a speech. He was president of Mississippi, the University of Southern Mississippi. Down in Jackson, he said, "Now I was born up in the prairies" {C: pronounced prayers} He said, "Now listen, I'm not making a grammatical error." Says in the west is prairies, but he says where I live near Crawford, Mississippi, it's prairies {C: pronounced prayers} And said and the niggers still referred to this area as the prairies {C: pronounced prayers} As opposed to the hills out on the On the western part where we're living.
Interviewer:  I bring it up because uh my impression is that the hill people in the hill country uh may have had uh more inhibitions about this than uh
556:  Well, it it was it was slight, but uh there was uh people you know lived in the prairie section, they thought they had better land and uh you know, and it maybe it was better land. This black land you seen it between here and Columbus. It is a different land. Now, that's called the sandy land. The niggers referred to it as the sandy land and the prairies {C: pronounced prayers}. And see this Seminole railroad was a pretty good dividing line. If you'll notice. You go over this way you get in the sandy land over here is the prairies {C: pronounced prayers} And there was maybe some slight
Interviewer:  I did some interviewing in uh Ponotoc, and uh I got the impression there that there was pretty sharp social differences.
556:  Well well, it was, but it was uh
Interviewer:  Planned people looked down on the the gray land and
556:  Well, you're right. It was some slight I'll say it was it was some slight
Interviewer:  And to carry this out uh the religious uh and moral feelings may have been much more strict and {X} people who wouldn't use boar, bull, stuff like that.
556:  I know the niggers They had, they didn't have much use For the ones who lived in the sandy land. I live in the prairies {C: pronounced prayers}, rich land. Black land, a nigger live on sandy land.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Oh boy, there, it was more marked among the niggers was than white people, to tell you the truth. Yeah, because they didn't have much use for a sandy land nigger. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  Those those things are fascinating and yet uh they were very hard to understand and define out there.
556:  Well, unless you lived with it and lived through it.
Interviewer:  Did you have any sheep, uh?
556:  Yes, we had uh one of my grandfathers raised quite a few sheep. And I had an old uncle up lived just a mile up from us uh a couple of mile up the road from us who sheared some sheep and they sent that wool to {D: Zatarila} who's up in Virginia. And they spun that wool and sent them back two suits of clothes made out of that undyed and it was the warmest clothes you ever saw. They made him a coat and pants and vest out of their own wool. And and sent those suits and they wore around you know just every day. Terrible looking things, but they were serviceable. And very warm.
Interviewer:  The uh male and female of the uh sheep. What'd you call?
556:  Ewe. E-W-E. Was a ewe.
Interviewer:  Alright, and the male?
556:  Buck.
Interviewer:  Buck?
556:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Alright. #
556:  And you had to watch that buck or he would butt you down. My grandfather had a big red pole bull one day and I saw that he and that one of the big old bucks got into an argument there and that buck backed off about fifty feet and took a flying start and he hit that bull inside with his head and knocked him down.
Interviewer:  Did you hear it?
556:  Yes sir. He He really knocked him off his feet. He just turned the head, long horns, you know. He hit that bull in his side, boy and, over he went.
Interviewer:  The uh I've often heard people talk about the uh problems they had with dogs, the sheep. Do you remember any uh?
556:  Yeah, they dogs were bad on sheep. They would kill 'em. Just for meanness, evidently. Uh, they would kill 'em. And kill another, just kill 'em. Just for Course to try to keep 'em controlled, grandfather would take his shotgun out and kill every one he could see. But that wasn't so so terribly bad. But it did happen. Course but dogs we kept at the home when you know during the bird dogs, pointers, and setters because of my father and all they liked to hunt quail and they All the dogs we kept were bird dogs.
Interviewer:  And a short dog or a small dog like that it's makes a lot of noise and very
556:  Well, we never had anything but bird dogs.
Interviewer:  Uh, I was wondering about the term feist.
556:  Yeah, well there's a feist. But we didn't fool with anything but bird dogs. Some of the neighbors now were Were like to hunt foxes and They had hounds. But we never had no hounds. My daddy he was a fox hunter. He loved to hunt quail, and he and my uncles So we always kept some nice bird dogs.
Interviewer:  Do you remember, as a boy, uh what you'd say to a dog to put him on on another dog or what you'd say to get him
556:  Sic him! {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  About getting?
556:  Sic him. {C: laughing} I remember that sic him. I know {X} We sent one of our niggers down to the store one day, and he came back says, "I can't go that road no more," and I said, "Why?" Said I passed a house down the road and they told me the next time I pass by, they're gonna sic a dog on us. I'll have to go a different way. Sic a dog on me.
Interviewer:  Oh. And there's a dog, and it's bit a man, you'd say uh that man he got
556:  {NS} Got dog bit.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh I didn't ask you this earlier. How about a cow {C: clearing throat} going to have a calf, what was the term for that? The cow was in
556:  Cow well uh you would say she was going to drop a calf in a certain date. Drop a calf.
Interviewer:  And uh you remember the calls that you would make to cows and to calves and mules and horses?
556:  I remember how they used to call the hogs. You'd call hogs you could hear them a mile As far as the cow's concerned, we'd just drove 'em up and get on a horse. And drive the cows up. But most the cows would come in without being driven up. Now sometimes some wouldn't, and you'd have to go look for that cow but most of 'em at milking time they had calves and they would come in on their own on their own accord. They didn't have to be driven up, but sometimes one wouldn't come. We'd have to get a couple of boys on horses. And go out the pastures and find and drive her up. But that didn't happen often because most of 'em would come up to their calves at night.
Interviewer:  Do you happen to remember this call that they would make uh to uh
556:  Call the calves?
Interviewer:  Call cows or pigs or whatever, yeah?
556:  Yeah, I remember the I remember the pigs very well.
Interviewer:  What what?
556:  Woo pig, woo pig.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Oh boy, there we had one nigger, you could hear him a mile. Woo pig. And we didn't call the cows. They they they- they would come at their own accord because as I say, they all had calves and they'd
Interviewer:  And how about the horses and mules that you'd you'd call them by name or?
556:  Oh I had all of 'em a name, sure. Every one. Every horse. My grandfather has two carriage horses named Prince and Dickey. Couple of Matt bays that drove the carriage. Prince and Dickey. They were fast trotters.
Interviewer:  How do you call sheep or chickens?
556:  We had different ways of call the chickens. I know one thing my mother would take a bucket of feed out and she'd hit on the bucket with a piece of metal, and those chickens would come to that. And they would go out and call them. Chick chick chick, and they'd come up to feed 'em. But she would hit on that bucket with something and chickens would Come running, see?
Interviewer:  The uh {C: coughing} mentioned the cow lows what did you have what name did you have for the quiet sound the horse makes that
556:  They would neigh and whinny. There's a neigh and a whinny.
Interviewer:  And which is the loud one, which is the soft?
556:  Well, a whinny was a soft one. You know, just soft whinny, but a neigh was pretty loud.
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear a knicker?
556:  Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer:  What is is
556:  Just a little little knicker, yes. It's uh very- not very loud.
Interviewer:  Same as a whinny?
556:  About like a whinny.
Interviewer:  Uh, and uh {C: clearing throat} when you go riding {D: Talking about your pa about} Riding horses as a boy your first uh first horse, did you ride bare back or did you uh
556:  Oh, I don't know. The first my father put me on a I couldn't even I was two or three years old the first time he ever put me on a horse. I got to be a good horseman. And in breaking breaking in new colts and horses was quite an event. We had one nigger that did most of the breaking in. And he boasted there never was a mule or horse he couldn't ride. And I remember one day a neighbor brought a mule over, "Now here's one you can't ride." Oh yes sir, I'll ride any horse. So he vaulted into the saddle. That mule gave one buck and threw him out about twenty feet and he landed right on his stomach, and he says, "That's the way to ride him!" Says when you see they're gonna throw, you get off of 'em. {C: laughing} Look like it busted him open. {NW}
Interviewer:  Never lost uh.
556:  No sir. He boasted he could ride him. Well he was pretty good. He they generally couldn't throw him. He had a big Texas saddle he'd put on him and {NW} Anyway, we broke the young mules. We'd take three take a four mule wagon. And put the young mule. By or the one behind, see. You know, they rode with a saddle on on the left-hand mule. And they put this young mule out, but the three old mule, he couldn't do anything but wait. They'd harness him up and put him in there and Nothing he could do. Had two old mules in front and another old mule beside him, so he
Interviewer:  Uh, that reminds me. Did you have uh you had two mules uh how would you refer to that?
556:  That was a team. Always referred to 'em as teams.
Interviewer:  And uh did you ever use the word pair? A team of horses?
556:  That was
Interviewer:  A pair of mules?
556:  It was, yeah, that term was used. Yeah. Pair of mules. And they it referred to four to four horse team. A four horse or four mule team and generally used four in hauling heavy loads, taking cotton to the gin and roads were muddy. They'd always hook four.
Interviewer:  How about the oxen? You remember
556:  Oh the oxen, I broke 'em. I broke a yoke of oxen. Yes sir. My father and my grandfather raised red poled cattle and And they uh but the big saw mill down in the swamp. He sold his place off and they would pay fifty dollars a pound for a yoke of broken oxen. And I'd take a pair of those steers. First we would put a yoke on 'em and tie their tails together 'til they got used to that yoke and just turn 'em loose in the pasture. And one day my grandfather he had a nice, little plot of fine plum trees. And I turn those steers loose without any they went through the plum trees and knocked every green plum off it. Hit the trees, you know, and back up. Oh, it made him mad. But anyhow, we had put the yoke on him, and tie the tails together and just turn 'em loose, and they got used to that yoke. Then we'd tie a log on it. On the yoke, and they can drag that log around a while. They got used to that. Then we'd progress then to what we'd call a slide. A sled. And we'd work 'em on that sled for maybe a week or so. They got used to that. In the meantime we would uh get 'em accustomed to the commands, whoa and back. Gee and haw, right and left. But with oxen you said whoa and back, but with mules you said, gee and haw. But with oxen it was whoa and back. And we'd finally graduate 'em to to wheel or we had a two two wheeled cart. And when they got used to that and used to the command, we'd sell 'em to this gunnery for fifty dollars. Two enormous steers for fifty dollars. Pick maybe a month to break 'em to get fifty dollars. Oh, we thought that was big money then. {NS} I still have that. I got a couple of yokes down at the museum now. I'll show 'em to you.
Interviewer:  {C: clearing throat} Did they use the uh use oxen for field work or?
556:  No, they were used mostly in in hauling lumber and logs. And uh back in those days, I'll never forget the favorite name for oxen. Ben was quite a favorite name for an oxen. Spot, Blue, Red, and Baldy. If a oxen had a spot in his fur, he was always Baldy. And if he was red, he was called Red. And they called another one Blue. Blue, Spot, Baldy, Red, and Ben. Any yoke oxen, you're bound to find a Ben in there somewhere. And why Ben was a favorite name for an oxen, I never I never learned. But that was a favorite name.
Interviewer:  I just uh saw somebody in Bolivar, Tennessee, and he had found his grandfather's yoke for oxen and uh his aunt told him that the oxen, Ben was one of 'em. Uh, up there.
556:  That well that was a favorite name for an oxen. And at and these niggers skinners down in the swamp {X} Well my grandfather owned this Wood uh virgin timber cause it never had a saw in it. And he sold it to some big saw mill company, and they sent in this crew to cut and haul those logs out. They hauled it to Crawford, which was the nearest railroad point, and they took one cut of logs on a little eight-wheel log wagon. Just one cut is all he could take. And he had uh six to six uh six oxen to each wagon. It had taken practically all day to haul that one log to Crawford and get back. And coming across it was a small levy they had near Fairport, Mississippi. Little old country village. And it was hot day. It was in August, and my uncle was putting up a grist mill, and he had the boiler came into Crawford, and he says, "When you take the log in, bring the boiler back, and I'll pay you for bringing it my boiler back." So they loaded the boiler on the wagon and coming across that levy water on each side with {X} you know. And those oxen turned off and it was hot, and they just turned off into that water and turned the boiler over, and the wagon Of course the nigger mule-skinners was hooping and hollering trying to stop 'em but they couldn't stop 'em. They went right down into that water. Turned the boiler over, and what a mess.
Interviewer:  Did he get it out?
556:  They finally got it out, but oh boy.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  That was a job. Turned over a big steamed boiler.
Interviewer:  Uh. Go back to riding horseback when you were a boy. Uh do you remember the uh did you have any special way the stirrups were fixed to keep your feet warm or?
556:  No. No, we I used when I was a kid, I had a McClellan saddle. Sears-Roebuck used to sell 'em for five dollars apiece. You know, the little I guess they were Army surplus saled, I don't know. But I always I got I liked a McClellan saddle. And I oh gosh I ridden a thousand miles on the McClellan. The only way we had of transportation was horses. And I had a good saddle. I was always getting the good horse. And I use a McClellan saddle.
Interviewer:  And uh {C: coughing} you the things you hold in your hand would be the
556:  Reins.
Interviewer:  But if you were on a wagon, it'd be the
556:  Lines.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And that must've been pretty common or pretty standard usage. When you start uh to talk about a wagon and buggy, the difference is the wagon would have uh one thing that would go between two horses.
556:  Tongue.
Interviewer:  And the if you had one horse, a buggy
556:  Shafts.
Interviewer:  The shafts. And uh would you explain how you would hook up or what word you'd use to attach the horse to the buggy or the
556:  Or the shafts?
Interviewer:  Yes, I mean, would you explain that?
556:  Well, of course you put the harness on the horse first. And there was two types. You could either use a collar or breast strap. Some some uh some people preferred the collar. Others, a breast strap. Well, you uh you put the harness on the horse first. And you'd backed him into the shafts, and the shafts went through two collars on each side, and you fastened the tracers to the singletree. Now if it was a double team, it was a doubletree. The doubletree had two single trees, but a a single horse buggy had one singletree and you snapped the shaft the a uh Tracers onto the singletree, if it was just one. And you'd then after putting on either the breast collar or uh the breast strap or the collar, then you hitched up or you fastened him. Lines to the horses bits, got in it.
Interviewer:  Uh. What is used for a whip?
556:  We had buggy whips. Regular buggy whips.
Interviewer:  Anything on the end to make noise?
556:  Had a small cracker about that long. That was a buggy whip, now. The bull whip was a different thing. The ones we used for those bulls we had a cracker you could sound like a pistol shot.
Interviewer:  Did you the cracker was it ever called a uh was that ever made out of sea grass or?
556:  No, we used it's it's a common we'd take a Grass rope and unravel it and make those crackers. About that long. Of course, the crackers didn't go out and you had to plant you another one. Planted 'em.
Interviewer:  See. Uh could you explain the the different parts of the wheel? Say the seat of the buggy or the wagon wheel.
556:  Well, of course, the hub, the spokes, the rim, and the tie. That middle part was the tie that went around it.
Interviewer:  You used the word rim. Did you ever hear anyone say fellow for that?
556:  Oh, a fellow. Yeah. But mostly that was the blacksmiths and people who did the work referred to that.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Yeah, they uh. It was the hub and the spokes, rim, tie, buggy tie.
Interviewer:  How did you keep the uh wagon wheels from squeaking?
556:  You greased 'em. Axle grease.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Alright, I had a question here you see, I got a library out there on the Civil War. One of the questions was, "They didn't have petroleum during the Civil War. What did they use to grease the cannon wheels with? They used lard.
Interviewer:  I was gonna ask whether you ever heard of anybody use uh tallow?
556:  They used lard and tallow. Course they still, and when they'd run out of axle grease, they'd I'd still use lard. If the farmer ran out of axle grease, he always kept his homemade lard, made a lard up in twenty-five pound buckets. Grease it with lard. Pretty good.
Interviewer:  It would actually hold up?
556:  Yeah, it was pretty. That's all they had until they discovered petroleum.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  You'd take during the Civil War all the cannon wheels were greased with lard. All the wagon wheels because they had no petroleum. It hadn't been discovered. So they used lard.
Interviewer:  Your uh first recollection of an automobile.
556:  Oh boy. We heard of such things. I remember back when I was a child Well, my grandfather had what he called wage hands, you know. He paid these niggers so much a month and fed 'em and clothed 'em. And our house sit in a big. {D: Pad up. That the old stocks where Lewis would stage rover went by our house, but it was probably} maybe a quarter of a mile up to the road where they call the big gate. And one of the stake one of the wage hands well they heard an automobile coming down the road and he said I believe I run up to the big gate and see there see that automobile go by, so he put out up there and he came back. I said, "Did you see the automobile?" He said, "No." I say, "When I got to that thing it was hotter than Mr. Morehead." That was the neighbor down about a mile. Said when I got there that thing was hotter than Mr. Morehead.
Interviewer:  Uh by the way, what uh how did you refer to the board between the house and the big gate? Was that a lane or a byway?
556:  No it was just just just the road. You see the house was surrounded by a big fence like this and it was probably twenty acres in there. There was one big gate over he had another over in this road. One road came by and went like this and the other that was just
Interviewer:  Uh, did you use the word lane? Uh, what would it mean?
556:  Well, it often often have a lane between two of the pastures. They would put uh fences you know maybe twenty feet apart to transfer the cows from one pasture to another pasture. Cause they'd eat out of this pasture, run them into the next one. See and let the grass grow over here.
Interviewer:  Well, he was always uh fenced.
556:  Lee?
speaker#3:  Yeah?
556:  Excuse me. {NS}
Interviewer:  Back to cars uh did you what did you first call 'em when they first came out? Uh, cars, automobiles, motor cars.
556:  You know, there was quite a discussion as to what to call 'em. I know some of the Lot of people called automobiles. Automobiles. {NS} I remember that term and then auto and machines and all kind of they finally took 'em a long time to finally settle down what to call 'em. I know some of the high and mighty people all referred to automobiles. Automobiles.
Interviewer:  Uh, what about the tires? Uh, did they hold up? Did you?
556:  Well, you see I went to work for my uncle. He had who had the Ford {D: age} this part of state in nineteen fourteen. And we thought we were ruined when Sears-Roebuck came out with a thousand mile guarantee on a tire. They were thirty by threes in front and thirty by three and a half behind. And there wasn't very much skid, those tires. Especially ones that came on the car. And Sears-Roebuck and we sold tires. But when they came out with that thousand mile guarantee, we thought we were ruined. How in the world a tire gonna run a thousand miles? And just think I got on that car that had twenty-nine thousand miles on those tires. Nearly twenty-nine thousand.
Interviewer:  How about the uh thing that was inside the tires? Did they
556:  Tube. Inner tube.
Interviewer:  Did they guarantee you on that?
556:  Oh no. Boy, the trouble we had. I used to drive a taxi over the county when I was going to college during the summers. And punctures and blow outs {X} You had to carry your Patching out equipment with you and patches and the little old vulcanizer and Boy, these punctures. Punctures and blow outs.
Interviewer:  Uh, would you trace the development of roads since you remember them?
556:  Well, when I was a child, of course, all the roads we had was dirt roads. And they were kept up by uh each section of the road would be turned over to a road overseer, some farmer would have a certain section of road and And they they they either had to work the roads or pay. And most of 'em preferred to work the roads rather than pay, so he would turn out on a certain and go out and summons a hand he'd call 'em. Day before he'd ride around over the different places and summon some of the hands to be of a certain place and they They'd get out there with mules and scrapers and shovels and try to fix the old roads up, generally, left them in a worse condition than when they found them. Pile of mud out in the middle of the road, and you'd stuck. Well, they were no roads. And I remember there weren't a good road in this country. Course then they can see this idea of gravel in the roads and they graveled them there. That's the way that's the way they started, with the gravel.
Interviewer:  And the next stage would be uh
556:  That's the black top. Concrete roads.
Interviewer:  This uh old forty-five must be a pretty old road, is it?
556:  One of the oldest roads in this You mean the old forty-five to Columbus?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Yeah, that was that was graveled at one time. And I remember it wasn't graveled. There was a section up there called Joe's Creek Swamp. You never went to Columbus without first finding out the condition of Joe's Creek Swamp Road. You'd get stuck when you get in there. That was a bad section of road.
Interviewer:  There's a fire tower up there and the concrete is uh pretty given away. I wonder what caused that. Maybe that's Joe's Creek Road?
556:  {C: coughing} {D: I don't know dirt settles.}
Interviewer:  The uh is it it looks looks to be an old road. Different uh kinds of uh items on the farm something like this that you put a log in to saw.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  What was what was that then?
556:  Well, we used a buck saw in sawing. What did you call that? I know what you mean.
Interviewer:  Or the thing like this {C: coughing} perhaps?
556:  It it well you put the you put your log in and sawed it uh you know I forgot the name of that now.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  But I remember sawing the logs.
Interviewer:  The thing that's sort of an A frame use two of them carpenters used two of them to put a plank across to saw.
556:  Well, a saw horse. They they called it a saw horse.
Interviewer:  That's the A frame?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  And the other, did you call it a buck or a rack or?
556:  A rack, as I remember. It was more it was called a rack, I suppose. I'm sure it was. Course we uh you had burnt burnt firewood all together in the fireplaces and Course in the summer we'd uh the hand would cut up cords and bring up you know and stack it for winter. And mostly use ax to course he used cross-cut saws to cut down the bigger trees. One on each end of the saw and he'd saw it up into links for the fireplace. That was stacked during the summer, so it'd be dry by winter. Great stacks of it out of the yard, you know getting ready for winter. I used to my grandfather used to pay fifty cents a cord to have it cut.
Interviewer:  Uh, you did measure by cord?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Did you ever need other way of measuring? In other words, was was the sort of wood that you measured by cord was it still {X}
556:  Well, now it it if it was two different kinds of cords. Stove wood and uh fire wood. Now the stove wood was made the same way. Eight feet long, four feet hight, four feet wide. But they got more for cutting a cord of stove wood than they did for cutting a cord of firewood. As I remember I think it paid maybe a dollar a dollar and a half a cord. But that still had to be eight feet long, four feet high, and four feet wide. That was the stove wood. And it was cut and quartered the same way. Uh course then you wouldn't link the cut the stove wood then wood burning stove.
Interviewer:  When uh somebody would kill something in the farm and it wasn't really a carpenter or might be kind of uh not too fresh on the job, you'd say, "Well, it doesn't look too good. He's just kind of a
556:  Jack leg.
Interviewer:  Jack leg? I was wondering if you've ever heard that applied to lawyers or?
556:  Oh yeah. I heard it applied to everything. Jack leg preachers, jack leg lawyers, carpenters, jack leg brick layer anything. It's a amateur or or wasn't an expert was referred to as a jackleg.
Interviewer:  It was a kind of a joke that it was not
556:  Oh yeah, that's
Interviewer:  Uh, you mentioned the uh the grain rock how about a smaller stone or rock like this that you would uh how in fact would you sharpen knives
556:  On the grind stone.
Interviewer:  On the grind stone?
556:  Yeah. You had a you had a grind stone on a on a rack with a handle. And up here with a little can of water with a little hole in the bottom that'd drip water on the grind stone. I've had to turn that grind stone a many a time while my my grandfather would sharpen holes or size or
Interviewer:  Axes or
556:  Axes, anything was on the grind stone.
Interviewer:  How about smaller things in the kitchen?
556:  Well, I had a whet rock for that. We called it a whet rock. Rough on one side, smooth on the other, and you put oil on it and Sharpened it on the wet rock. But all the big things were sharpened on a grind stone.
Interviewer:  When you started to shave, would you describe that {X}?
556:  Well of course all I'd ever heard of was a straight razor.
Interviewer:  And a sharpening knife would
556:  Oh, had a different home. That was a home for the razor. It was much smoother than the regular. Regular uh whet stone. Very smooth on one side, it had a strop
Interviewer:  A strop
556:  and a strop hitches on every time your razor would turn, you'd cut your strop half in two. Well, that's that's what they'd use. They'd hone it and strop it and make it smoother.
Interviewer:  So you've heard that much was made of the muggers.
556:  Oh yeah, I'll show you my collection in a minute.
Interviewer:  It's something like uh
556:  Yeah, you see the old barbershops I had one of the racks they hung up. Shaves were only ten cents in those days and so each customer had his own mug with his name on it. And they were all mounted and beautiful and by the way, they sell them for twenty-five dollars apiece now, those old mugs. And as a farmer, as a customer would come in, the barber would go and select his mug and brush and shave and clean it and put it back. I'll show you my collection.
Interviewer:  See it to uh drive posts in the ground, what would you
556:  Mall.
Interviewer:  Uh, anything anything's drive through in the mall would be made of what?
556:  Wood.
Interviewer:  And anything smaller than a post, you'd use you'd have uh anything out of iron?
556:  Oh yeah, but had a well you see the reason you used a mall was to keep from battering the posts. You know, a wooden mall. It was you'd take a big log, you see Leave this end and cut the other into a hammer. See that was hammer. You'd leave it leave this much of it at the end. Cut it down, see?
Interviewer:  In other words, about a foot.
556:  Yeah, that was a yeah
Interviewer:  Uh sledgehammers and
556:  Well, then he had a sledgehammer, too for
Interviewer:  Uh, would be the harder thing
556:  Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer:  And different fences that you remember or?
556:  Barbed wire fences. I'll show you my collection of barbed wire. I have twenty different types down there.
Interviewer:  How about the kind of fence that goes like this?
556:  Well, on my grandfather's place when I was a child, it was much of it was uh fenced with rail fences. It was split by slaves. And that old those old uh oak rails was as hard as this. {NS} And much of that place was still fenced with those old rails. Those railed fences. Wood that I had some of 'em now.
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear those called Virginia fence?
556:  Yeah, old Virginia fence, sure. Yeah, yeah, that's a certain way you build it. Old Virginia fences, yeah, yeah.
Interviewer:  You're the first first man I've ever talked to who knows what a Virginia fence is.
556:  Oh sure, yeah, that's yeah you know this a way. I draw you a picture of one right now I suppose I could.
Interviewer:  Did you ever call them uh worm fences?
556:  Well a worm fence is made out of log out of split logs.
Interviewer:  And a stake and rider?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Use those?
556:  No. I don't remember that.
Interviewer:  Uh you never had any enough stone to make
556:  No, no, no stone. I've seen all the old stone fences up through New England and New York state, all through there they fit 'em together, you know.
Interviewer:  They uh around a a yard or garden, what kind of fence would you have?
556:  Uh, split palings. They uh were split out of wide oak with a fro. {X} We had we had an old nigger on the place. That's all he did was {X} boards and palings and they called 'em palings. And uh split 'em. They'd get fenced.
Interviewer:  Around the garden or
556:  Yeah, and all the cabins and barns and everything were covered with those split boards. I'll show you my fro. I got it down here, too. You know what a fro is?
Interviewer:  Uh yes uh
556:  With a
Interviewer:  With a handle, right?
556:  Handle, upright handle. The blade to the bottom. And you hit it with a Mole a wooden mole see to keep from You couldn't hit it with a metal because it would run in the back of the probe, so you used a wooden mole. To ride the boards with. And all the bonds and outhouses and smokehouse Nigger cabins were all funny covered with those split boards. The post office yeah down here if you look at this post office, they're trying to imitate split boards, but it's made out of clay. Petrified clay. And that what that's exactly what it looks like the old boards on the post office.
Interviewer:  #1 The uh split boards would run pretty quick, right? #
556:  #2 Yep. # With the grain of the wood.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Now if uh if it ran horizontal, you'd call it uh around the house we'd cover the house.
556:  Well, they didn't use that to cover out there because of anything but boards and palings that I. It wasn't used for anything else.
Interviewer:  I mean it, the word is weather boarding.
556:  Weather boarding, but that was yeah
Interviewer:  Later
556:  Yeah, that was sawed lumber.
Interviewer:  These were they called anything other than split boards and peelings? That's not what {X}?
556:  No, they didn't never referred to them only as palings and boards.
Interviewer:  Did you uh you mentioned swamps uh did you ever use the words uh marshes or meadows?
556:  Uh, let's see, yeah, we used the word meadow but it was generally referred to as the hay field.
Interviewer:  I see. Not necessarily low lying.
556:  No, it was generally referred to as a hay field where they kept the hay until they
Interviewer:  When they cleared land uh how did they get rid of it? You mentioned bottom it's uh quite desirable right?
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  Bottom land. When you clear land, how would you get rid of uh water that would be in the bottom?
556:  Well, it it they'd ditch it off. You called it new ground, you know. You'd clear up a new ground. You'd go in there and cut all the trees and cut the stumps down as low as you could, and each year you had to cut what you'd call cutting the sprouts. You'd just sprout it, and it'd it'd be ditched and you'd take a take a a a middle buster cut you a trench down with it maybe two or three times ditch it, run the water off with a middle buster. You know what a middle buster is?
Interviewer:  Yes uh. It'd be a would the water ever back up or
556:  Oh yeah, if it was low enough and creek or ditch would overflow, it would back up, but it run, it wouldn't take it long to run off maybe after a heavy rain it might back up. But uh it didn't take it long to run off.
Interviewer:  You mentioned a levy. You ever have uh anything around this area B-A-Y-O-U?
556:  Bayous? Well, a bayou was mostly in Louisiana and southern Mississippi. For instance, Fort Gibson is on bayou pier. But they never referred to bayous up this part of state.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  It's all in south Mississippi and Louisiana. Down there the word bayou bayous is very common. Just like out west you speak on a rio, a rio or a canyon we never use that word never used here.
Interviewer:  The uh different kinds of land touched on this the other day the gumbo and buckshot would you explain those the prairie here?
556:  Well, this prairie land of course is uh is is uh black the black black prairie land and course that buckshot wasn't just very good land. This black prairie land of course as I say out the western part was called the sandy land, which was more of a loam and a clay and a sand mixture. But this black land You couldn't you walk try to walk on it when it was wet, you get a load on each foot. {X} I used to hunt birds out here. You just gotta start and get stuff off your feet. You can't carry it. It just keeps boiling up on it. There's a different texture altogether from this. Type land out west which was uh as I say was called uh sandy land. It's an entirely different type of soil.
Interviewer:  You ever call it gumbo?
556:  I've heard it referred to as gumbo, but that wasn't a very I don't know it wasn't a very prominent expression. I've heard it referred to as gumbo, yes sir.
Interviewer:  But you actually didn't use it very much?
556:  Not much, no.
Interviewer:  Um mentioned a middle buster. Would you tell me a just go through the process of {C: clearing throat} in the spring how you get to prepare the land and
556:  Well, of course the first thing you did was you took a turning plow and whatnot the old rows a mole wood plow. With one with one flange. You'd turn it and that left the middle in the middle, see? You then got the middle buster, which was shaped like this and threw it back and made the rows. They're all row crops. My mother never did plant anything flat. It always a row. And that middle buster middle as they said, busted out the middle. See, the first plow that went down was- had a single wing on it. On each row. Well, that left the middle, see? Well, you went through in the middle but about two-hundred each way. That made your rows.
Interviewer:  And uh if you broke your brown, what would be the next thing?
556:  Well, my my grandfather used to use a harrow then to smooth the top of the-
Interviewer:  About the harrow. Uh by using the harrow.
556:  That was smooth off the top of the rope.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Uh they did you have names for the different {X} with two mules or two horses? Did you have a name for the left? One for the right?
556:  Oh yeah, all the horses and mules had a
Interviewer:  I I don't mean a proper name, but uh uh did you call the left or lead horse?
556:  Yeah, lead horse lead horse always on the right.
Interviewer:  On the right?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Oh and how about {NS} you said that you didn't uh have much to do with small greens. Uh did you ever grow must have raised oats?
556:  No, my grandfather never he he uh he he raised corn and cotton. Peas and peanuts. Watermelons and of course he had an enormous garden, everything in the world in that garden, but he never he never raised oats for some reason. Neither one of 'em ever fooled with oats. They raised cotton and corn and of course cotton was a cash crop and corn was to feed the stock on. Always had a lot of mules and horses
Interviewer:  Did you ever watch uh any threshing going on in those days?
556:  Didn't have a thing to thresh. No oats, no oats, no wheat. Nothing like that.
Interviewer:  {D: The uh probably seen big steam}
556:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  Things since then.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh. {C: clearing throat} To harvest the uh the grass, uh would you explain how that was done?
556:  We had a mowing machine. He had a mowing the earliest mowing machines with the pad horses, you know? You you see how to work this use this mowing machine to cut the grass let the grass dry and then take or a big rake and rake it up into stacks. Make hay stacks and and you'd stack it you know out on a pole and it was impervious to water. And
Interviewer:  Yeah, when you before you raked it up, did you have it cut in certain
556:  Wind rows.
Interviewer:  Wind rows?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Then you break it up. What would be the next step?
556:  Uh uh rake it up and stack it. Uh you'd putting up by putting it a lot of it was put in the barn. And see when you filled the loft up, then you stacked it. Big pole maybe twenty feet high. It was stacked around that pole.
Interviewer:  But you never stacked it in the field itself?
556:  Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer:  First.
556:  In the yeah.
Interviewer:  It serve as
556:  You put all you could in the barn, and then what you had left over, you stacked it.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And the cows eat off it in the winter. They'd go down and eat it off, you know.
Interviewer:  And did you ever have poles say four poles like this and four like this? To make a kind of shelter.
556:  #1 No, nothing just #
Interviewer:  #2 It's uh # And you mentioned growing uh cotton. Did you uh what exactly is does it mean to chop cotton?
556:  Hoe it with a hoe.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  #1 When I was about #
Interviewer:  #2 Just to cut the weeds out #
556:  Oh yeah. And then the plow and the sweep came along, got the middle. But when I was a kid, I kept after my grandfather that I want to raise some cotton this year on my own. I ought to make some money on my own, so he said, "Alright." And by the way, we'd kind of make it and say I'd go back each summer, spend the summer up there. So he'd I'll have the cotton, I'll have you two acres plowed and planted and when you get here, you take over. So I did. And I worked myself to death out. He gave me a mule and a plow, and a I chopped it out myself and plowed it. And it was beautiful cotton you had about that high. And one night the army ones crossed the road.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  And the next day, I didn't have any cotton. They ate every living millions and millions of 'em. So that was the extent of my farming on my own. The arm of the ones. Those things came across the road in countless millions. You could the road will be covered with 'em. And they ate up every leaf off of my cotton and I, instead of making three or four bales like I thought I was going to make, I think I made less than a bale. I had to put put mine with one of his bales to make a bale. Oh, it broke my heart.
Interviewer:  Uh you spoke of grass. Uh how about how many crops uh or grass would you get off a field?
556:  A cutting? Well, it would depend altogether on the weather we had good rain lots of rain, we'd get two or three cuttings it off the grass. It was Johnson grass, and
Interviewer:  Johnson.
556:  Yeah, and you'd get two or three cuttings. You want to cut it before it went to seed. And also Another thing was they fodder 'em off of the corn stalks. They would pool the fodder, as they called it, and put it up into hands like the back of hands. Bend the stalk over and hook that hand on the stalk until it cured. And then they would go then and tie it up into bundles. Four or five hands made a bundle of it. And that was a bundle. So many bundles of fodder. And I told you about a year and twelve years of calling it a bundle of fodder for each mule that was wasn't a bundle. They liked that uh stock liked that fodder. They'd eat it. Was mule it cured. Corn leaves off the corn.
Interviewer:  You mentioned uh having barrels of uh molasses. Did you keep anything in uh in smaller barrels uh or how would you keep nails? How would you buy nails?
556:  Nails?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Well, of course nails came in kegs, but we never did we'd just buy a few pounds of nails. You never bought a keg never had much use for that many of 'em that's same they're all the same size in a keg.
Interviewer:  And then uh speaking of molasses barrel, how did you get the molasses out?
556:  Had a bum. A wooden uh you your had a wooden faucet. See they made molasses a normal way where you had a molasses mill, see? {NS} Where the keen was ground. And it was uh with a mule you know. Round and round. Somebody had to drive that mule in in a circle. And they fed the keen into between two steel steel rowers. And the juice ran off into a barrel. And then when the juice was then put in the pan. A big A big copper pan I reckon it's four feet wide and maybe eight feet long and you built a fire under there, and that had to be an expert to know just when to turn the molasses out of that pan. If you panned it if you let it out too soon, it was sour. If you let it any too late, it would turn to sugar, so it had to come out just as and we had an old nigger who was expert on it. He would skim it, you know and watch it and taste it and said, "Alright, it's ready!" Let it pour out. And we used to take cold biscuit to the mill and eat that hot molasses with cold biscuit. We thought that was good.
Interviewer:  Uh, how did you get rid of the smoke uh in the heat?
556:  It had a at the end it was see it was built up by brick, you know. The pan was on top of that and it was stack on the end. Went low, just a crude. So the smoke went out the stack and you fired it with just wood just keep throwing wood on under there. And it would boil and simmer and foam and it had to keep it skimmed, had a skimmer. They would skim the foam off, you know. {NS} And this old nigger would he'd watch it very closely and there as I say if you overcook it, it would turn to sugar. And if you undercooked it, it was sour, so it had to be just exactly right.
Interviewer:  Right. Where did you get the barrels and how were they made there?
556:  They were just wooden barrels. You know, I don't know where he got those barrels from. We got uh I imagine those barrels full had vinegar in 'em were wooden barrels. And it was uh Had uh Put a big funnel at the top and poured it in those barrels and then The barrels were kept in the smoke house and molasses and Had a wooden spigot on it, you know to let molasses out at the bottom.
Interviewer:  The the barrels or how were they made? Just the regular
556:  Just wooden barrels.
Interviewer:  Staves?
556:  Mm-hmm. Staves. Now had two kinds of molasses. Sorghum and ribbon cane. That that sorghum molasses when it was fresh, it was pretty good. But we that's the niggers usually used the sorghum, and there wasn't much ribbon cane, you know that uh Blue ribbon cane, that was very fine molasses uh I still like it.
Interviewer:  Wait, does that grow around?
556:  #1 Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  {NS} Ribbon cane, he called it. Sugar cane. Same as the canes grown around in Louisiana.
Interviewer:  And uh {NS} the {C: clearing throat} different ways of stopping up uh bottles. What uh
556:  {C: laughing} Cobs.
Interviewer:  Cobs? Uh-huh.
556:  {X}
Interviewer:  {X} hard to come by or?
556:  Chalk was hard to come by. Cob was so had and so plentiful you'd just
Interviewer:  Ah.
556:  Or you'd use a cob
Interviewer:  You have any uh to ever stop anything up with glass?
556:  Glass?
Interviewer:  Yes. Glass stoppers.
556:  Well, we had ground glass uh vinegar cruets, for instance. And think that's I still got some of the old vinegar cruets. I I've got three there right now. The vinegar cruets always had a ground glass stopper.
Interviewer:  {NS} The different sacks uh do you remember kinds of sacks and bags?
556:  Well, the bags are made out of Ozenberg. We made 'em. Buy so much Oz of the cotton sacks, for instance. Then that they pick cotton in. They made 'em. Right there on the place. They'd buy Ozenberg and make these sacks with a big strap that'd drag out behind you, you know.
Interviewer:  And how about the uh things that you'd buy in the store? Uh feed or fertilizer or potatoes or uh
556:  Hmm. Well, I tell you we raised practically everything on a place we had to eat. Had everything we had plenty of potatoes, all kinds of vegetables and onions and stuff and dried. Uh. Cause our nearest uh Store was about a mile and a half, a little place called Fairport, Mississippi, and we we bought sure well we used to buy sugar by the barrel to keep sugar at home. But sometimes we we bought coffee and we just uh. {NS} Just common groceries. Grow coffee and flour and sugar and stuff.
Interviewer:  Uh, what kind of thing uh thing it appears to in here are toe sacks, croaker sacks.
556:  Yeah, we yeah we used those we'd we'd get stuff in 'em.
Interviewer:  Well, which is which uh.
556:  Well uh we called 'em croker sacks.
Interviewer:  Croaker sacks?
556:  Croaker sacks. But now the other sacks that we used for for picking cotton in and different things like that were made right there on the place. My grandfather would buy this Ozenberg, which was a coarse, heavy, cotton fabric, you know? And just sew up these sacks with but then for the cotton sacks, put a strap about that wide and went over your shoulder and its sack drug out behind him, maybe six feet long.
Interviewer:  And how about uh in a store, did you have things made out of paper? Or in other words, how how were
556:  Things packed?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Of course things were mostly packed in bulk in those days. For instance, crackers or any or mostly in bulk dried fruits everything in the package hadn't come along that time. It was mostly everything in bulk.
Interviewer:  And you'd buy things and put them in the paper bags?
556:  Yeah, oh yeah. Paper bags. And I used to buy we used to buy thirty pounds of coffee in the crack. Put it in a big paper bag. Thirty pounds. And it it had to go in the grinder, you know. Coffee mill. Grind. {NW} And my grandmother times would buy green coffee parch it herself, but she that was supposed to be much better coffee, you know. Partial little it'll be fresher, you know. Partial little at the time and grind it but I don't know, we finally got
Interviewer:  Lot of your family drank coffee uh how? How, put anything in it?
556:  Oh yeah, cream and sugar.
Interviewer:  Uh, if they drank it uh Someone would drink it without cream
556:  Some of 'em drink it without anything. Black yeah, I know some of 'em would but
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear anybody call it barefoot or
556:  {NS}
Interviewer:  Barefoot coffee?
556:  I've heard the expression, but we didn't use it.
Interviewer:  Have you uh you've heard the expression?
556:  I've heard the expression.
Interviewer:  Uh, it means straight or black.
556:  Straight, drink it straight.
Interviewer:  Rich with aurora and uh the west, what's uh the closet thing to an aurora around this area?
556:  There's plenty of 'em out here in right on the edge of the county between here and Winston. While there's some you could throw this house in out there. Bigger than that some of 'em a hundred feet deep right out here.
Interviewer:  What I'm interested in are the terms for
556:  Gullies.
Interviewer:  Gullies?
556:  Yeah, that's they're gullies.
Interviewer:  You ever call them a ravine?
556:  Ravines and gullies. Yeah, they've called 'em ravines and and gully in fact there's a post office in this county that's called Ravine, Mississippi. {X}
Interviewer:  And {C: clearing throat} something smaller than a creek it would be a
556:  Well up in Virginia, they call them runs.
Interviewer:  Runs?
556:  I still have lots of relatives up in Virginia up there a few years ago and this we wanted to go out to the chase and one of the {NS} relatives say well the runs out of the bank. I didn't know what he was talking about. A run. It's a creek. I said, you mean a
Interviewer:  Still use the word branch? Yeah, I use branch. Branch and creek.
556:  A a branch is smaller than a creek. Goes a river. River, creek, branch.
Interviewer:  Different kinds of trees uh walnut trees
556:  Well, cause we had worlds of pine trees and by the way, my first cousin told me he had just shortened it at the old pasture. She was over forty-five-thousand dollars of those pine trees in that pasture. And yeah, they were covered with pines. We had pines, oak, hickory. Scaly barks we used to rub together. Scaly barks. {NS} Nuts and of it. I still think that's the best nut in the world, the scaly bark.
Interviewer:  That's the small
556:  Yeah, I've got some out there now.
Interviewer:  {C: clearing throat} Uh, any walnuts?
556:  Oh yeah. We raised lots of walnuts. I we had a lot of walnut trees and my grandfather had a barrel with a hole cut in it the top we'd when the walnuts fell, we'd dry 'em through this hole and take the outer hub off. Put in that hole, take a hammer. And I'd take off that outer hull. We'd get all stained up with that walnut juice.
Interviewer:  Way to dye uh.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Ever had pecans? Uh
556:  Yeah, we had pecans. Yeah. The paper shells hadn't come along at that time. We just had the small native pecans.
Interviewer:  You call uh a tree sycamore or buttonwood or?
556:  Sycamores. Uh now button buttonwood or the bush it grows around the edge of Lakes. Buttonwoods.
Interviewer:  And {C: clearing throat} things that are poisonous uh
556:  Poison ivy.
Interviewer:  And bush and bushes that turn red in the fall. Those could be poisonous. Or or is it not?
556:  The only poison I knew was poison ivy, and that was terrible. And for some reason, I was immune to it. It didn't bother I never would never bother me at all. {NS} But I've seen them get that poison ivy and man it was horrible oh oh yeah boy.
Interviewer:  Did you have sumac or shoe-make?
556:  Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer:  Which do you say uh?
556:  Sumac. And the first time I called I heard it called shumoc, my wife had a breaking out and went to a skin specialist and really he said you know honey, you really been around shoe-make. And we did have some he called it shumoc. We always called it sumac.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  This doctor called it shumoc.
Interviewer:  Uh, know that used to call it shumoc.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Regularly and and in fact they'd say that uh Uh it was used to dye for leather. Shoe-makers use it.
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  As a dye. Uh and uh the cucumber tree. Are you familiar with that? Uh
556:  Not a tree. {NS} A vine.
Interviewer:  {C: clearing throat} The uh anything that cows eat that are supposed to be poisonous?
556:  Buckeye.
Interviewer:  Buckeye?
556:  Yeah, buckeye's very poisonous. {NS} My father always carried one of his {X}
Interviewer:  Oh, I've {X}
556:  He he just as soon go out without his trousers as without his buckeye.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  And I still got that superstitious care.
Interviewer:  It'd be good for arthritis also.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  #1 It's to uh uh I grew up in Ohio, which is the buckeye state and you're supposed to keep off arthritis with #
556:  #2 Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's right. # Well, that buckeye's my father always carried one in his pocket for good luck. Uh that's the native buckeye. And that tree was poison if a cat ate that tree, it was it was poisonous.
Interviewer:  You have anything around by the name of uh laurel or anything like that that?
556:  No, laurel trees mostly up in the into Tennessee and Virginia. Lots of laurels up there, but we have very few here. {C: clearing throat}
Interviewer:  And {C: clearing throat} insects that uh sting
556:  Oh boy, did a hornet ever sting you? An insect at a wasps. Hornets, yellow jackets. All them yellow jackets. They all would sting. But a hornet is I think it's the most painful sting in the world is a hornet. You see he pops his stinger in you, and you can't get it out. Like a hook. You have to pull him off. I had one to sting me right there, and he just buzz and couldn't get loose. It's just like ramming a hot iron in your arm.
Interviewer:  The uh hornet has the uh nest
556:  I I have I have if you have time to see my museum, I'll show you, too. I've got one cut open. Over sixty-thousand to each one of 'em.
Interviewer:  That's right. And how about the uh the ones that made have nests in uh logs and {X}?
556:  Wasps.
Interviewer:  Is that the the wasp?
556:  There there's several different varieties of wasps and yellow jackets. The different varieties and nests in different places. I destroyed two out there in my carport yesterday. Wasps nests. By the way, I got stung several times right there last summer so I want to avoid it this time. So I sprayed 'em yesterday.
Interviewer:  Uh the uh other bug that's carries malaria, what's is it usually called?
556:  Well, that was the stegomyia mosquito carried yellow fever. Yellow yellow fever was the uh Stegomyia you know mosquito. And uh. {C: bird noises} Course they finally found out what caused yellow fever. Took 'em a long time. {C: bird noises} They didn't know what I remember the last yellow fever scare we ever had in Macon. I was just the child. They had guards on all the roads and, they didn't know what they were doing till they found out what caused it was um it was um it was the stegomyia mosquito.
Interviewer:  Said you used to keep everybody out.
556:  Yeah, they didn't want it wouldn't have by the way, I still have uh Uh certificates to get on the train here cert a doctor would certify this man hasn't been exposed the nigger the niggers called 'em stiff tickets, certificates. They'd go down to the station. You got your stiff ticket? Certificate, and I had one of those doctor certificates right now. That would issue this man has not been exposed to yellow fever, signed so and so, M.D. Had to have that before you got on the train.
Interviewer:  Ticket need to get out.
556:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Little bugs uh that uh burrow into the skin and raise up a welt.
556:  Ticks. Ticks.
Interviewer:  Ticks?
556:  {X} {C: laughing} I got a scar right there from one.
Interviewer:  Now uh is do you have anything that's smaller than a tick uh
556:  Red bugs. Chiggers.
Interviewer:  Alright they they it's they burrow under
556:  Yeah, chiggers. You get covered with those. I've had a million on me. Especially go out in the weeds and grass and you get 'em on you and then and then the thing to do is to get in a bath of extreme salty water get rid of 'em. They'll they'll just eat you alive, little tiny things. Chiggers. We called 'em red bugs when I was a child. That and boll weevils and army worms. Oh boy.
Interviewer:  {C: laughing} Uh, bugs that uh jump uh
556:  Crickets. Grasshoppers.
Interviewer:  Now do uh did the colored people call uh grasshoppers, did they refer as that?
556:  They would call them hopper grasses.
Interviewer:  #1 Now am I is this right the the uh whites would call them grasshoppers consistently. #
556:  #2 Yeah. # Yeah.
Interviewer:  But uh negroes would call 'em
556:  Hopper grasses.
Interviewer:  Hopper grass
556:  Just like they wouldn't say woodpecker. They'd say peckerwoods. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. You have any idea of why that was or any?
556:  I don't know they well you take the term butterfly the the the original name for it was flutter by. Butterflies were flutterbies for a hundred years. I don't know how it got turned around into butterfly, but they were flutterbies. I don't know how they got that peckerwood and hopper grasses turned around.
Interviewer:  And uh difference between a spiderweb and a {X} web and cobweb {X}
556:  No, we called 'em spiderwebs or cobwebs yeah when they There used to be an old lady here called 'em cobwebs. And she'd get 'em out of the chimney and she's if you cut your hands, you'd always get some cobwebs out of the chimney and put that with the soot on that cut. She claimed that was the best remedy there was for a cut. Cobwebs out of the chimney. With the black soot on it now. I don't know how that worked, but I've had to put it on my cut on my arm. Slap it on there and wrap it up, you know. That'll cure it.
Interviewer:  {NS} How about uh {C: clearing throat} bugs that flutter around the light.
556:  Candle flies.
Interviewer:  {C: clearing throat} And the ones that uh in their one state they eat your clothes, especially wool.
556:  Moths.
Interviewer:  Moths?
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  Sure, are the young candle flies, are they?
556:  I don't know I I've had several suits ruined by moths. Of course, they lay their eggs. If a if a if a piece of cloth is absolutely clean, it's it don't affect it, you see? Grease spots that they
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  That they eat. They'll lay the eggs in and that moth hatches out, and he'll eat that cloth with a grease spot. If you if a suit of clothes if perfectly clean, though, they won't bother it, although it is made out of wool.
Interviewer:  And the bugs that fly around with the light off and on?
556:  Fireflies. Lightning bugs, we called 'em.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  We still have 'em.
Interviewer:  They're not the same as June bugs?
556:  Oh no, June bugs oh boy June bugs we used to tie strings to 'em play with June bugs around fig trees we You can find plenty of 'em around fig trees. They eat ripe figs. We'd catch 'em, tie a little string on her leg, you know. Go around with a June bug.
Interviewer:  These bugs that hover over water.
556:  #1 Mm. We called 'em snake doctors. #
Interviewer:  #2 {C: clearing throat} With two sets of wings and #
556:  #1 Dragonflies, what they are. #
Interviewer:  #2 Ah uh-huh. #
556:  Snake doctors.
Interviewer:  And different owls?
556:  Oh yeah, we had screech owls and By the way, you see that tree right there? Three nights ago, two of 'em got in that tree, and they put me on a concert.
Interviewer:  #1 Were any of them still around? #
556:  #2 Oh man. Are they? #
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  They get up in that tree right there. I love to listen to 'em. They like to get up and hoop there. And practically every night you can hear 'em. They come they don't seem to be afraid of town. I've seen 'em downtown. I saw one light in the street right under a bridge at light one night I been out. Sitting up on the bank there and he flew down into the street, I reckon, he's catching a bug or something. But they're very calm.
Interviewer:  #1 Big ones, uh? #
556:  #2 Screech owls. I used to have a caged one. # Sir?
Interviewer:  The big ones?
556:  {D: Yeah, they all out there.} I had one in a cage up a couple of months about that high. {X} Had a country flew in his chicken house one night and told me to come out and get him. {D: At our was that at our haunts?} It's about that high.
Interviewer:  That's about three feet high.
556:  Yeah, he's an enormous thing. I kept him in a cage several months about to break me free. We turned him loose one day. Buy meat down at the store.
Interviewer:  Make a difference between the hoot owl and the screech owl?
556:  Screech owl was a tiny owl. Very little.
Interviewer:  And uh did you ever hear anybody say a squinch squinch owl?
556:  Squinch owl. Niggers called 'em squinch owls.
Interviewer:  Squinch owls.
556:  I don't that's fairly recent they never said screech just squinch owls.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh things that would go after chickens uh
556:  Well, there's chicken hawks.
Interviewer:  And how about animals uh small animals?
556:  Well, they they kept rats.
Interviewer:  Alright.
556:  Uh um in fact, hawks are beneficial birds. They catch a few chickens, of course, {NS} but they live mostly on rats. Cotton rats. Field rats. And they're really beneficial, and they shouldn't be killed like people every time they see a hawk that want killing, they shouldn't do it because hawks and owls, as a rule, are very beneficial birds. I found a a owl nest and it would be full of rats, mice, lizards, and snakes for the young.
Interviewer:  The uh different kinds of squirrels. You say you've gone squirrel
556:  Well, uh yeah I've uh they are fox squirrels, red squirrels. I've killed many red squirrels in fact and gray squirrels and every now and then you see an albino squirrel or a black squirrel. They very rare, though.
Interviewer:  If uh things look like squirrels and run on the ground real quiet, they
556:  We don't have those, no. #1 Uh, chipmunks and they don't they're not uh. Yep, we don't have those at all. #
Interviewer:  #2 Chipmunks. Much as they're called gophers. # And uh the kind of small animal who's after chickens, I guess. Uh, smells bad if you scare
556:  {NW} Pole cats.
Interviewer:  Pole cats? You ever have a a a word that uh you use for pole cats and possums and weasels and rats, and call 'em, put together, a single word? What I'm thinking of is varmint.
556:  Varmints? Oh, sure.
Interviewer:  Now how did you miss did you ever buy that people would joke and say that or not?
556:  I'm afraid so. Low-down varmint. Yeah, I've heard that you
Interviewer:  Is that a uh a kind of joke or is it serious or uh
556:  Well, maybe both ways I've heard it referred to both ways.
Interviewer:  Ah.
556:  Some low-down fellow. He's a low-down varmint. I've heard that expression many times.
Interviewer:  We uh mentioned a pretty word how did you we talked about this yesterday and uh people who call pecker uh peckerwoods. Somebody's called a peckerwood, what's the response there?
556:  It means a very small kind of a man.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  Peckerwood. They have pecker wood saw mills the little old portable saw mills they call peckerwood saw mills. And they they small maybe like two or three people. Yeah. #1 They are. #
Interviewer:  #2 What's interesting is # whether peckerwood it means the same thing as redneck or cracker or uh. In Georgia, it's
556:  Cracker
Interviewer:  A man can call another man cracker if they're good friends. Or uh it's a kind of term of endearment. Now is uh I think redneck is a little bit more serious, isn't it?
556:  #1 Yeah, it is. It's uh. Had a different connotation, per perhaps. #
Interviewer:  #2 Like the word? Uh-huh. # How about peckerwood?
556:  It's same thing.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  They about the same as a redneck.
Interviewer:  So uh it can be a serious word. You you wouldn't uh
556:  You can use either way, you know. You can use it in a friendly way, a joking way. You can Course if you use it in a serious way, you don't tell it to the man himself. #1 {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 Uh-huh. # Uh another word that I'll ask you, you have you think of any other words that negroes would call whites that they didn't respect?
556:  Very well. I've heard of a thousand they referred to 'em as poor white trash.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  I was up there of course I was really country up there. Now all the people are gone, the farm houses are burned down, and I picked up one of my old niggers at the old nigger friend of mine, and his name was Percy. They called him Percy. I said, "Percy, any people still living around here now that we used to know?" And he said, "Nah, it's nothing but a bunch of poor white trash in here now." Poor white trash. I you will admit, so
Interviewer:  Did uh they ever use the word uh hoosier?
556:  No, no, that's we didn't use that word at all.
Interviewer:  What uh what would a poor white call a negro that he didn't like?
556:  Well, I don't I don't #1 No, you see #
Interviewer:  #2 Anything in particular? #
556:  Uh now nobody ever referred to poor whites out except the colored people. Now a white person never referred to anybody else as poor white trash, but that was strictly a colored person's word.
Interviewer:  Suppose a a white person wouldn't have any respect for another white person. What would he call him? Is that where the peckerwood comes in?
556:  That's where the peckerwood and the redneck come in. But I never heard a white person refer to another white person as poor white trash, but that was very common among the niggers. They had up where I lived where people were prominent. They had money and and they had the utmost if they'd see a white man working the field, chopping cotton, he was poor white trash. He wasn't supposed to be out there chopping cotton. And a white woman working in the field. I remember one of 'em told me one day, "As you know, I saw that man's wife out in the field chopping cotton. His wife?" I said, "You did?" Said, "You ever hear such a thing?" I said, "No, I never did." But they must be poor white trash. That man's wife out there chopping cotton. He was horrified at the fact that Course as I say our family, we weren't wealthy, but we, you know, got along alright, and but the idea of a white woman out in the field chopping cotton. That nigger just couldn't he just couldn't take that at all. He just thought it was horrible.
Interviewer:  When you were a boy, what uh what would you call or what would uh would a negro how would the negro address you or your father?
556:  Well, he always used the term mister of course uh as you got older now when I was a boy see when I was on the plantation, I didn't have anything to play with but nigger boys. We were just building {D: tongue} with one another until We hunted and fished and camped, and there were no other white kids on the place. And my devoted friends were all niggers, really. We no, and we used to camp together and hunt and fish
Interviewer:  {D: The term mars has died out before}
556:  That died out. It's I hear 'em on television saying master. That that that that wasn't a word at all. It was muster.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  They used the word mu- it wasn't master or marser. It was muster.
Interviewer:  Muster?
556:  That was the old slave expression. Muster.
Interviewer:  I bet it was gone by the time.
556:  It was dying out. I've heard it used many times, though. It was is was it was a word that was dying out at the time, but I heard many of the old niggers use that word many, many times.
Interviewer:  Were they uh do you remember any terms applying to the woman? To the
556:  Old miss.
Interviewer:  Old miss.
556:  Old miss was the No matter whether she was young or old, she was old miss. No matter uh that was the wife of the owner was old miss. Always old miss.
Interviewer:  What term of uh respect would white people use to toward say older negroes? Uh
556:  Always aunt and uncle.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  Oh yeah. Always aunt and uncle. Always called the old ones Uncle Ben, Uncle Sam, Uncle John and aunt this uh my old My old aunt know I remember telling you about Aunt Jane. I never called her anything in my life but Aunt Jane. Never. And all the rest of the family called her Aunt Jane.
Interviewer:  We gonna get back to where we were before with bugs and things. Uh, what kinds of frogs do you remember?
556:  Well bullfrogs were very common. I used to kill 'em and eat the legs. Very and I used to love these bullfrogs. We had lots of big bullfrogs. They were enormous things. We used to catch 'em and Jig gig 'em and um dip 'em up in nets. You know, we'd even shoot 'em with a twenty-two rifle here. I was going out at night and put your flashlight right down the barrel of your rifle and shoot him right between the eyes. The eyes would shine like diamonds in the water. And yeah they were quite something. I used to love then um Got up and got traveling around. Went to cafe down here in Jackson. Once I saw frog legs on the menu four and a half I like to fall out of my chair. {NS} Million dollar one time and didn't know it.
Interviewer:  {X} They're a delicacy.
556:  Oh yeah. They were quite a delicacy.
Interviewer:  And smaller frogs that uh
556:  Well, we had uh toad frogs and tree frogs. We used to have a lot of {X} vines growing up around the house and little tree frogs. We used to catch 'em cute little things.
Interviewer:  And uh hard-shelled
556:  Turtles.
Interviewer:  Things uh turtles near the water or
556:  Well, uh uh the terrapin's a dry land uh type. Uh but the turtle's are soft-shelled turtles and they had uh flat-shelled turtle they lived in water and by the way, I caught one just last week out here on the bank of the river about that big. He'd gotten out of the water, but they had various types of turtles. But the terrapin, as I say, is a dry-land. He closes himself completely up. Uh, there's an old nigger out here who used to have a fish trap across the river and I've seen him bring in turtles weighing sixty pounds.
Interviewer:  Okay.
556:  Sixty pounds. Yeah. Forty, fifty, sixty. Biggest number I saw is sixty pounds.
Interviewer:  What do you remember about these things that uh you'd stick uh put a stick down in the hole or a rat hole and stick
556:  Doodle bugs.
Interviewer:  Those doodle bugs.
556:  #1 Doodle bugs. Caught a million of 'em. #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh uh. # But what are the ones that you find in fresh water? There are pinchers also. Crawfish, you mean? Yes.
556:  #1 Crawfish? Yeah, crawfish. Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 That what they call 'em? Crawfish? # And uh, they're good to eat, right?
556:  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when we was kids, we used to catch 'em, fry 'em. And first got 'em to a shrimp.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Now they have there's different types of crawfish. Down in Louisiana, they have the red crawfish, which is quite a delicacy. They make crawfish crawfish bisque. In fact, I have some canned crawfish bisque here right now my daughter brought me from New Orleans.
Interviewer:  Oh, I wonder if you would give me a sketch of the house where you grew up uh
556:  Uh, let's see. Maybe I can.
Interviewer:  If I can remember, {X}
556:  Now, see my say my two grandfathers played for {C: distant} {X} I grew up{C:distant} See now, that's what{C: distant} {X} {X}
Interviewer:  We're doing a good job of forgetting the tape recorder, which is what we want. But I almost forgot to bring it over.
556:  Uh that's out of out of proportion. Wait a minute. This home this is my grandfather Kriegler's home. Here was a house back here like this, see? It had a hall through the house back there. Room in a room here.
Interviewer:  #1 And your hall was closed or open? #
556:  #2 Room here. # Well, there's an open door here and right on through the door's these rooms. And right here you talk about a plunder room. Well, right here was a Kind of a store room you could use. And out here Like this was a kitchen.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And there was a wing in the building. About like that which had three rooms and that was other side of the house. That's the way it looked.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Um. There was a kitchen back there kind of it wasn't detached, but it was
Interviewer:  Yes, let's uh. Let's indicate what those rooms were. This is the plunder room.
556:  That was the plunder room. This was a bedroom, of course. That was a bedroom. And this was, {D: wait a minute.} That was the dining room, I believe it was. I know it was. And wait a minute. It has been a long time ago.
Interviewer:  Sure, uh.
556:  Uh, now these were bedrooms. This was up here was a kind of a sitting room and it had this horse hair furniture, you know.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah.
556:  I used to sit on it, you know. And that's uh and by it was beautiful furniture, you know that. That furniture disappeared, and they told me they found out an old house it was rotted. It was beautiful stuff. But nobody ever sat on it because it {X} new.
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
556:  #2 Well, that was my grandfather. Right here now was his uh # Uh office his this this was his uh it had drawers all around it in here, you know, and that was his consulting room back there. Had a place where they could lie down their patients, and that then that'll be Paling fence around all of it, you see?
Interviewer:  I understand uh where where would the parlor this would be a
556:  Up here.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  See, it was uh this was colored, see? You walked in, and that was the parlor and whatnot in the corner. Now that was this that was grandfather {X} home, and this other was a big old home built way back before the Civil War. It was a big house like that, and the kitchen was right here like that. I remember the kitchen, it had a hall that went right through it. A big hall. A big double-doors, you know? And it was on the a bedroom there. That and that was a dining room.
Interviewer:  This would be a kitchen, and this would be the kitchen?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Alright, and did you have a little room of the kitchen where you'd store things uh?
556:  Well, no.
Interviewer:  Plunder?
556:  Well oh but back here they had this there's a building they used for storing stuff in and also it doubled as a salt house I was back then and behind way back here was an enormous barn.
Interviewer:  The thing that you call a pantry.
556:  Well, they had a pantry here in the dining room. There was a had big double-doors on it with shelves right in here. That was a pantry right there. And these were all
Interviewer:  In other words, it was built in or anything more than a room? Was it something built into to the room?
556:  And it stuck out into the room.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  And right over the dining room table was a poker. You know.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  And and the right out the window here.
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
556:  #2 {X} # Their momma then was you know, supposed to fly, keep it cool. Keep the flies off up the screens. And they thought it would slow down my grandfather. Help her! You know, {C: laughing} the nigger boy would forget about it. {C: laughing} He'd turn around and holler out the window. See the thing out there a pulley, you know? And uh, it'd help him down.
speaker#3:  Did you put down this window?
556:  #1 I'm watching #
Interviewer:  #2 How are you? #
556:  Did you did you meet Patricia?
speaker#3:  #1 No, I didn't. How are you? Good to see you. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  I was watching this in here.
speaker#3:  Put it down. Get so down. Waited an hour for him when I
Interviewer:  Took a shower coming down.
speaker#3:  Yes.
Interviewer:  The uh weather's awesome to predict. The uh newspaper this morning said nice, sunny today, tomorrow, but
speaker#3:  It's all the editorial says is what's so rare as a day in June.
Interviewer:  #1 That's right. An hour before #
speaker#3:  #2 You can tell what it'll be #
556:  I see this park it was like that. It had streams of paper. Papers oh down here. And that thing worked on a pulley up here in the ceiling, and the string went up the pulley and out the window. The nigger boy would stood out there on the ground, and pulled it between every meal. And that's the way the thing had uh P-U-N-K-A-H, I believe. And How you how you spell punkah Louise?
speaker#4:  What?
556:  Punkah.
speaker#4:  Like a cook up here?
556:  The punkah the punkah over the dining room table we used to have.
speaker#4:  Oh punkah.
556:  Yeah.
speaker#4:  P-U-N-K-A.
556:  {C: laughing} I knew it was punkah. Like with the punkah. And then then there was a big porch. You know, I forgot about the porch.
Interviewer:  Is there a porch on this house? Uh.
556:  Yeah, I forgot about the porch. Yeah, here's the porch. Stuck a way out like this, and this porch still out like this with columns, you know. And the steps here when one steps up here to right up steps.
Interviewer:  And this uh talking about a porch, uh suppose you'd have a little uh roof over a door uh you would have a name
556:  Entry. That was the entry.
Interviewer:  Entry, uh?
556:  Entry.
Interviewer:  They didn't they didn't use stoop?
556:  No, they didn't use stoop. First time I heard stoop was when I went uh up to Pecusa to school.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  And I remember coming back from church coming back from school one day one of the girls sat out and old Aunt Lily come out. Who's that girl sitting out there on my stoop? {NW} And I'd never heard the word stoop before until she said stoop. I tell you you mean the steps? Stoop. Uh cause this was none of this was this was the back porch. Oh, I forgot about the back porch. The back porch. And then the steps came.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And that house is still standing, and it's in terrible shape. It's gotten up to falling out there last time it's terrible. Nobody lives in it, nobody since.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Now that's the way it looked.
Interviewer:  How uh and what would be the parlor?
556:  #1 In this house we had no parlor. We had no parlor. #
Interviewer:  #2 This. Uh this uh. # Where did you spend most of your time as a family uh? Uh.
556:  You mean where? Of course we had big chairs on the porch in the summertime. We set out on the porches and on the back porch. And and and uh on this is one my grandmother and grandfather's bedroom. We spent a lot of time in there. And this was my room back here. That room back here. I had it I had lived back there.
Interviewer:  Did you have anything called the big room?
556:  Not in this particular house. This this was a bedroom and that was a bedroom.
Interviewer:  Told her in the Kriegler house. Did you have a big room?
556:  Well, mostly we used one of these rooms up here. We this was a sitting room right here.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And.
Interviewer:  Uh, would you tell me a you mentioned the whatnot. What other things would you have in the other items
556:  Sits right in the corner. Well, just little uh I remember she had little seashells on it that somebody brought up from the coast and Uh {X}
Interviewer:  You told me that you remember some kind of warning that she'd give you
556:  Oh well she'd say you mustn't touch anything on it the whatnot. I couldn't touch anything a little little glass figurines and various little uh things she'd collected, you know, little glass uh figures and vases and seashells and And uh little various little things like that, you know she'd collected over the years and
Interviewer:  What other things would you have in the parlor uh what items, furniture?
556:  Well, on the part in the middle there was uh always a uh marble top table. Generally the Bible and a copy of Pilgrim's Progress was on it, and one of these things I still got it uh one of these viewing outfits, you know. I have it up there now.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I I just played with it when I was a child. I still got it. That was on the table, and course there was paintings around the wall that my old aunt did when she went to college as a girl. She studied painting. {D: I'll show you one of them now whether I get around to it}
Interviewer:  And the items that they uh sit on uh what what what was made out of horse hair?
556:  It was uh the chairs. There was a straight chair and a cup maybe a couple of straight chairs and a rocking chair and a couch. All house horse hair. And you sit on the things, and the horse hair would stick you, you know. You had short pants on. Sit down on that horse hair, and there's a consequence those that furniture {X} nobody would sit on it. It was beautiful stuff. It was walnut carved walnut, and I've often wondered what came of that one, and I asked him for advice. I said that stuff still out in an old lighthouse somewhere and rained on it and rotted it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Well they uh they would use word couch rather than sofa or would there be some
556:  The word was couch. I never heard the word sofa. I never heard of a sofa or a sofa.
Interviewer:  You have anything called a loveseat?
556:  Uh, no they didn't have. I knew what a loveseat was, but we didn't have one. That was a outfit like that we didn't have a loveseat.
Interviewer:  And in the bedroom uh what different items would you have?
556:  Well, of course there was a big bed. I used to sleep well by the way, I forgot to tell you this is a two-story house.
Interviewer:  Oh!
556:  This in here was Yeah.
Interviewer:  How would you where how would you get up?
556:  The stairs, the stairs.
Interviewer:  And where were they then on
556:  The stairs were right here and they started right here.
Interviewer:  Right through the front door.
556:  Yeah, right the back. Now, wait a minute.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  This is the front of the house. The stairs were right here. Going up to the two rooms upstairs. And then the bed I slept in was up there. Only four posters with a {X} and I fell a bed. I ain't got out of that bed's the kind of I'd sleep up there sometime, but this was my room. I slept down there mostly. But when company came, you know, they'd {NS} Sometimes have to go upstairs. There was two rooms upstairs in this house. That's what a two story house is. I'd rather get to calling it a story and a half because it wasn't strictly two story, but it did have two rooms upstairs.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. What other {C: clearing throat} items would you have in the bedroom? Uh Places.
556:  Well, of course there's a bed and a big dresser.
Interviewer:  Did the dresser have a mirror?
556:  A big mirror over it over it yeah a big mirror and the dresser and around by the way I have a round paved one in there right now. I'll show it to you.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  But they kept their books and papers and stuff in it.
Interviewer:  What would you keep your clothes in?
556:  {X} Uh. I know there was a there was a in here There was a pantry yeah they kept stuff in. And as I remember, they kept the clothes hung on racks behind the bed. The whole bed.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  There were hooks on the wall behind the bed. They kept their clothes
speaker#3:  I got these things down the hall {X}
556:  {X}
speaker#3:  I'm going to {X}. Where you think I'm going?
556:  Oh yeah, that's right.
speaker#3:  I just excuse me {X} I don't want any money. I don't want any
556:  #1 {X} #
speaker#3:  #2 {X} #
556:  She's going out to the country club to the ladies' night.
Interviewer:  See well, that's fine. I I enjoy switching for one. Did you have anything called a wardrobe?
556:  Yeah, we did. That's right we did have a wardrobe. Big wardrobes, that's right. I forgot all about the wardrobes. In this room here, had a marvelous wardrobe right there. with a and by the way I had it here. And uh the beautiful thing. But it was so big we had two of 'em here, and my cousin came up from Florida here last summer And went to take and the whole thing collapsed there's not a nail or a screw in it. It just fitted together.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And so he loaded on top the station wagon and took it to Florida. Beautiful thing out of walnut. That's right, there was a big wardrobe right there.
Interviewer:  And uh.
556:  That's where she kept a lot of her clothes in that wardrobe.
Interviewer:  Did you have anything that was made just of drawers?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Without a mirror?
556:  No. {NS}
Interviewer:  Or anything called a chifforobe?
556:  No. {NS} No, they didn't have nothing except that that uh I forgot they about the wardrobe. They did have two big wardrobes. They were enormous things.
Interviewer:  Or a chiffonier?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Just called it a dresser?
556:  Had a, in the front hall at this grandfather, they had a A hat rack, a thing that stood up with you know, where you put stuff on. And on the wall was one of these things that you let out, you know. You hung hats on. I that was in the front hall and also an organ, an old pump-organ set in there.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh {C: clearing throat} in the kitchen you uh in fact when we were talking this morning you mentioned a safe uh. Would you
556:  Yeah, well that was in the dining room. It was a
Interviewer:  Oh, it was the dining?
556:  Yeah, it was a a thing with two doors metal with a little hole that popped in it's you know it's designed so that's where they kept all the cakes and the pie and stuff like that.
Interviewer:  #1 The purpose of the safe was to keep bugs away that or flies that {X} that uh #
556:  #2 Right, right. # Had little tiny holes in the middle. It was a metal um Tin, I suppose. And designed worked on it you know flowers. With little tiny holes, you know to get the air in. That's where I think we kept the cake and the pie and the preserves and the pickles and all that kind of stuff. All homemade, of course.
Interviewer:  You uh mentioned this morning also how you kept the uh The milk cold.
556:  #1 Down in the cistern. #
Interviewer:  #2 Where was that uh? # Where would be the cistern?
556:  Cistern was and at this at this grandfather's it was just out by the behind the kitchen. A deep cistern and that water was just as cold So you put the milk in they called them coolers was about that big around and maybe three feet long. And let it down in that cold water, and that milk was delicious. It was cold as can be.
Interviewer:  How did you fill the cistern up?
556:  Gutters from the house. See the house had gutters all around it, and and of course a lot of it you didn't have to fill it. The water came in but I remember sometimes my grandfather wait after a big rain and after they got washed off thoroughly, he'd turn the gutter into the cistern and let the rainwater run into the cistern.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But uh
Interviewer:  Somebody told me that uh they never collected water for their cistern during the summer because they're afraid of mosquitoes. It would be a
556:  Well, you kept you kept fish in the water to take to heat up the {X} see?
Interviewer:  {D: wash}?
556:  You drop a few fish down there, and they they would keep
Interviewer:  #1 Take care of it. Uh-huh. #
556:  #2 They take care of the mosquitoes. #
Interviewer:  And uh and a kind of situation like this. What would be this part of the roof or it'd go like this.
556:  #1 And this roof like #
Interviewer:  #2 #
556:  that and this went like that. That's the way.
Interviewer:  And uh it would form would it form a kind of a thing like this?
556:  Well, the gutters went all the way around it, you see? A wooden gutters.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And uh. Had one going to the cistern, which wasn't connected until he wanted to get some water, now. Uh. And you wouldn't you'd wait until the rain rained a good deal to wash all the dust and stuff off the roof. And then if you wanted to turn it into the well, you could turn this gutter into the well.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But this water in this well at this grandfather's house must've been subterranean water because that well never did go dry. We always had plenty good water. But this grandfather quite often had to turn some water into the well.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And we
Interviewer:  Uh, did you did you ever call this a valley? The valley of the roof?
556:  Yeah, sure. {X}
Interviewer:  Uh, {C: clearing throat} the reason I ask that question is that uh where it was where that was called a valley, then the place to the things to catch water would be called gutters.
556:  Well, we called we usually well the gutters were what these were gutters, and the valleys was Down in in between where the roofs came together.
Interviewer:  Other people would call the val- what you would describe as the valley, they call that a gutter, and they use these as eavesdrops.
556:  Well, our gutters were made out of wood shaped like that, see?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And right around there.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And they they'd carry the water off the roof.
Interviewer:  How did you heat uh would you tell me about your heating arrangements?
556:  Just enormous fireplaces was all.
Interviewer:  Alright. And in each room?
556:  Each room had a big fireplace.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And how would you start uh start the fire?
556:  In the morning?
Interviewer:  Yes, you have a recollection of how
556:  Yeah, well one of the niggers would come in and start it.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  They always kept a big backlog there had a backlog that they'd put on at night. The last thing he'd put is a big log behind and and it would put ashes up over the fire. And the next morning was very simple. They'd just bring in some kindling and in just a few minutes, they'd have the fire going, raked the ashes back and that would be the coals.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  We smoldered all night this backlog big enormous log, and just throw on some fresh fuel and off she went.
Interviewer:  Uh. You had you had pine when you were Oh yeah.
556:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Did you ever call that # Uh, fat pine or
556:  Oh yeah. Fat pine. We'd use that to start the fire with.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  By the way this house, these floors that we're standing on are fat pine. This house is nearly a hundred years old. And that porch out there had it buffed off here a couple of months ago. And the fellow said this floor is made out of fat pine. Do you know it? I said, " Sure, I know it." And this whole house is made our of hard pine and cyprus.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  It wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been nearly a hundred years if it hadn't been made out of good stuff.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But it is good lumber in this house and it's been here a long time. This house was built in eighteen eighty.
Interviewer:  Eighteen eighty. Mm. The uh {C: clearing throat} different parts of the fireplace that you uh you recall uh
556:  {C: clearing throat} Well, we had a big pair and each one of them had a big pair andirons and as the niggers called 'em dog irons. Big iron andirons and one of them at this grandfather's house was beautiful things come up and brass, big brass top stove. But all of 'em had andirons or as they called 'em dog irons.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And a place that's that was built out in the floor, what was that?
556:  #1 Hearth. #
Interviewer:  #2 #
556:  That was the hearth. Brick.
Interviewer:  Brick? Uh.
556:  Yeah, big big brick hearth. And you That's why you never you never burned green wood in your because it popped. Pop at you and burn your coffee. So you always tried to use cured wood. It wouldn't pop at That green wood would pop and splatter and burn good.
Interviewer:  And above the fireplace, what
556:  A mantle.
Interviewer:  And where did you have one that?
556:  Oh boy. Well, my grandmother used to make her own lighters. She'd get pretty paper and roll out a big vase for always Vase full of lamp lighters up there on in a big vase. She liked to get pretty paper and roll 'em about about that long, you know. Bend 'em at the end and keep unrolling, and she always kept us. And on each end was a couple I still got the brass candlesticks. I'd show 'em to you. They'd sat on each end of the mantle was these big brass candlesticks. And she kept this lighters and various things. And grandfather kept a box of tobacco up there for his pipe.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. What did you use for {C: coughing} in the lamps? Uh.
556:  Kerosene. Coal oil.
Interviewer:  Did you? Uh, do you since you had fat pine, do you recall any use of pine knots or oil?
556:  No, well I've got some pine nuts down on the museum. We didn't use pine nuts out there. We used strictly kerosene lamps.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I got one in there electrified. I'd show it to you.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That's a very beautiful lamps I wish I had 'em now.
Interviewer:  And when uh you first uh got electricity, what uh
556:  We didn't have electricity in the country. We never did get it.
Interviewer:  Ever mean to?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  When it first came to town, what did you call the things that uh give off the light when they first came in?
556:  Light bulbs.
Interviewer:  Did you always call 'em bulbs?
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  I remember very well when the first electric was built here in Macon. Only had night had night current never turned on at daytime. At dark every just about dark everyday they blew a wildcat whistle down there. That meant the lights were on. Turn on your lights. Them old bulbs.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Um, well, this is fine except I told I've forgotten the great many things there. Uh how are you doing for for time uh {X} I have uh a great many other things I'd like to ask you. You have a marvelous memory, and I would like to Spend some more time with you.
556:  #1 Go right ahead. I've got all day. My wife has gone to the country club, so we're not bothered with her anymore. #
Interviewer:  #2 My question is uh what are you doing alright? Oh. # Well, let's uh you're comfortable there, then I'll just keep the recording here, and I'd like to uh ask you some other questions about the house. How did you keep uh the light out the windows uh {C: clearing throat}. In fact, uh did you have anything to keep the. Did you have shutters or?
556:  Not a thing. Nothing. Not one thing. There were no blinds on that house. Uh, the old blinds. This house used to have 'em. We took 'em down. But the old blind you know shut right through there we didn't have 'em.
Interviewer:  #1 Now uh the blinds would be on the outside or the inside? #
556:  #2 On the outside. # And this house it was equipped with both. I have one in the house now. The inside blinds. And the outside blinds. This house had both kinds. I still hadn't built in the house now.
Interviewer:  And uh the uh did you have anything like shades?
556:  Had window shades. But In this particular house yeah, there was absolutely nothing on those windows. We didn't have any anything.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Nothing.
Interviewer:  And in the {C: clearing throat} house with the second story did you have something uh above that? That you can in fact, in either house, did you use any of the area under the roof but above the the ceilings? Uh, in other words, would it be a did you use uh the attic or the loft? Uh {X}
556:  #1 Well, I am #
Interviewer:  #2 The loft and the barn. # But in the house would it be an attic or a loft?
556:  It was it was an attic. We called an attic. And the and these two rooms up here upstairs each one was open right there and the story was tough up there, outside those rooms the eave under the uh roof. It was unfinished. And we stored all kinds of stuff up there. And uh these two rooms upstairs each one of 'em had a big closet. A big closet in each one of those rooms.
Interviewer:  {C: clearing throat} And they had a a built-in closet?
556:  Yeah, a big closet a walk-in closet right big things. Kept all kind of stuff in there.
Interviewer:  You mentioned a feather bed uh what else do you remember on it uh what did you have on the bed and what did you use to keep warm and what would you use to
556:  #1 Homemade quilts quilts. #
Interviewer:  #2 Display. Uh. #
556:  Quilts and then they used to have quilting parties there. I showed you my grandfather's office his room back here.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
556:  About once a month, they'd have a quilting in there. All the women would come around and they had a frame they'd let down from the ceiling. And they'd sit around that thing and do the quilting. Mostly a gossip party what it was, but they sewed right along. I don't know what more maybe a dozen women sit around that thing working on these quilts. Beautiful quilts now.
Interviewer:  Did you have um anything that you'd keep on the bed for display uh sort of like that? #1 Uh, that that was just for display. #
556:  #2 Oh yeah they had a counterpin. They called it a counterpin. Yeah. # Counterpin yeah that was just to cover that's to cover the quilts.
Interviewer:  And um
556:  You took the counterpin off when you went to bed.
Interviewer:  I see and did you have a pillow that went all the way across? Uh.
556:  Well there was such thing, but we just had no we And by the way, they often used shuck mattresses. Now, if you ever slept on a shuck mattress {C: laughing} Lord, I remember {D: I used to have to sleep behind it's fine a shuck mattress for tents shuck mattress made out of shucks.}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Corn shucks.
Interviewer:  What were the uh {C: clearing throat} how were the pillows made and
556:  Pillows were mostly goose feathers. Um they had geese you know they'd pick the geese and stuff the feathers stuff those. They made fine pillows, too.
Interviewer:  #1 Uh you said you had seen those pillows that went all the way around? What's what did they were they for display or? #
556:  #2 Yeah. # Bolsters, they called 'em. Wasn't it wasn't that the proper name?
Interviewer:  That's where what some people call 'em, but I'm not sure whether they actually were used or whether they
556:  Nah, they didn't use
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  As I remember, they didn't use that bolster. They put it up there just to make the bed up and at night you had your own separate pillow.
Interviewer:  How about the word pillow sham?
556:  Oh yeah. Pillow shams and
Interviewer:  That's not the same as a bolster.
556:  No, a pillow sham is what we call a pillowcase today.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  See, the pillowcase. The shams went over the pillow. Pillow was made out of uh. What they call bed {X} And stuffed with goose feathers. And very fine feathers. They were good. I'd like to have one now.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  #1 These things #
Interviewer:  #2 Uh-huh. # The sham then was not the was in for to make it look nice rather than
556:  The sham pillow sham is the same as a pillowcase.
Interviewer:  Okay, I see. So you actually use it uh
556:  Interchangeably as pillowcase and pillow sham. I'd have 'em call a pillow sham, some call 'em pillow case.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh if did you ever as a boy uh sleep on the floor on anything?
556:  Oh lord, man. A pallets oh boy.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  I'd uh A lot of times we'd have a lot lots of company, nowhere else to sleep. On a pallet. I'll make him a pallet. Slept a many a night on the floor.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Nothing but a quilt and a pillow.
Interviewer:  #1 Uh do you have any recollections of the how the women uh how the uh the help would keep the floors clean and where they'd keep things, how they'd do dishes, how they'd do laundry? #
556:  #2 Well, yeah once # Once a week I believe it was a cook would what you call scour the kitchen floor. Scour it with lye. She'd use lye and a brush broom and man and scrub that floor with that lye, you know. Call it scouring the floor. She'd scour the kitchen floor about once a week. No, she'd say I got to scour today. I got to scour now everybody get out. I got to scour. Well, she'd rub that floor. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  How about doing uh washing and ironing?
556:  Well, they had a big wash pot out in the yard. In a tub and a rub boat they'd call 'em. And this big wash pot they'd build a fire on it and get the water hot and And put it in the tub with the iron with the scrubbing boat and wash the clothes and the tub of water and hang it up on the line to dry.
Interviewer:  How'd they get the uh soap out? Would they boil it and scrub it?
556:  Well, they used different water. You see, you'd wash it with soap first. You'd pull water out then put fresh water in the tub. And that'd get the soap out of the clothes. And you wrung 'em out, you know, in your hand, and hung 'em on the line. It's where you got the soap out in the water.
Interviewer:  Do you have any recollection of ironing?
556:  Oh yeah. Yes uh yeah one of 'em right there.
Interviewer:  Oh yes?
556:  Yes sir there. The wash woman. Yeah, the wash woman. And by the way, some of the old nigger women were {X} I wish I had 'em now to do my shirts. Do beautiful washing and ironing. Starch 'em beautifully. And then we had one woman who could do a shirt just perfect. Better than anyone launder in the United States could do 'em today. Could iron 'em perfectly. That's that's one of mine right there. And we heat it in front of the fire.
Interviewer:  In front of the fire?
556:  Yeah, set 'em around the fire. Now three or four or five of 'em lined up. {NS} Unknown.
Interviewer:  Oh yes.
556:  #1 They'd have #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  They'd have four or five of 'em lined up in front of the fire and for one, put it back and pick up a hot one.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh The doing dishes things like that uh
556:  Had what they called the dish pan. Washed 'em in the dish pan.
Interviewer:  Where'd you get your hot water uh?
556:  {D: Off the each little old souls had a reservoir.} They kept the warm water on the one of 'em. On the side of the store, the niggers called 'em reser boil reser boiler. The reservoir, of course. We call it a reser boilers. {C: laughing} Reservoir. And it held about uh maybe three or four gallons of water. It was hooked on the side, and the water didn't get especially hot. It just got warm. And they use the water out of the reservoir to wash the dishes in and in the dish pan, a big pan.
Interviewer:  Uh, if you if you had a smaller iron uh container on the stove, uh I think sometimes they fit it down in an eye.
556:  Well, quite often they would heat the iron on the stove. But when there wasn't no fireplace, they just set the irons on the stove and built a good fire on the stove, you see. Let down the heat from the fire of the stove.
Interviewer:  Uh I wonder was this a uh this was a kettle or something you'd heat water in or the reservoir be just be for the dishes?
556:  Warm water. Then you had a kettle for boiling water.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  If I got the whole story of it.
Interviewer:  I think that's uh {NS} be a good thing uh to uh have on the tape the uh these these are Choctaw. This is Choctaw.
556:  #1 Choctaw. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X} And I'm not sure I understand uh uh the difference between this area and Philadelphia and what uh
556:  Well Going the difference is in Philadelphia, they govern supervisor he takes care of any over here these are on their own.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  They have probably a couple of hundred living in a county.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And they all strictly on their own over here. And if they would go over there, they they could go to school. They had a church and the school, a hospital. It'd be a wonderful thing if they'd go, but they won't go.
Interviewer:  And you said you knew the chief who uh
556:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  instead of uh sending sending uh his people over there in fact he snatched a few away from you.
556:  well now and then he'd slip a family out of there, so the agent told me. And but he was very anxious to get these Indians to move over there, but the old chief And by the way, I think he was largely a self-appointed chief, but the Indians had a great deal of respect for him, and and he had a great influence with 'em. Back in about nineteen back in the fifties, I don't know probably one day. I was sitting in the office and this gentleman from the courthouse brought a note in. I still have the note. Says, "Please come see me. I'm in jail. Bring me a watermelon and a bottle of snuff." And I thought maybe they picked him up on some little charge, so I got him a bottle Levi Garrett snuff and a watermelon, and I went down there he was very indignant. Sitting up in the cell. They locked him up. I said, "Chief, what have you done to lock up?" Oh, he killed another Indian. And he said, "He needed killing, and I killed him and tried to break into my house, and I killed him. He was drunk, I think." And he said, "Uh the white man of course not supposed to try me," he says, "According to the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit, I'm supposed to be tried by Indians, and not white people." Well, I said, "I don't have a copy of this treaty, but I'll get it and we'll read about it." So he said, "Aw, alright so {X} when we get a copy of the treaty." And got a photostatic copy of out of the state department, and I went down there and read it to the Indian. And one of the clauses said, "You Indians who refuse to go to Indian territory." That the treaty hung up on that subject. Some of 'em wouldn't go. Said, "We'll die before we'll leave our homeland here in Mississippi." So the next day, they had a addition to the treaty. And those Indians who desire to live in Mississippi can stay. But they shall become citizens of the state amending with all the laws of the of Mississippi. And now here was a trick. To each family who so stays, we shall give a section of land to the head of the family. To each child over ten, I believe it was, we'll give a half a section. Each child under ten a quarter section. If you decide to stay, that's what we'll give you. But you'll become citizens of the state of Mississippi. But you must make application for this land within six months. Or you'll be barred. Well this was a big country. Indians had nowhere of communication. And lot of 'em just didn't make the application, didn't know how to make it, or where. There were was a drunken land agent here at Mayhew by the name of {NS} And they grow up out of {X} and you'd either not be there or be drunk or he'd curse him out and run him off. So many of 'em didn't get the land, and some of these Indians here right now if they had their desserts, they'd be millionaires.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  So this old chief ah he might have been a self-appointed chief. I don't know, but anyhow he killed this Indian, and now he was sitting up in jail, very indignant that the white men had arrested him and put him in jail like a common criminal. And uh as I uh as I read the treaty to him, he said, "Well, I didn't know that. I thought I didn't know I could get tried." But anyhow, I said, "We'll have to get you a lawyer." He said, "I haven't got any money." I said, "Well, I'll probably get you a lawyer." Maybe won't charge you anything. So there's very good lawyer named Mr. W.B. {NS} He's died now, but I went down and explained it to him and told him he'd get some publicity out of it. And I said let's take the old Indian's case and help the old Indian out, you know. I'll just do it. So he dropped everything and went down had a conference with the chief. That was long about the first of August and August the court was coming up right away that month. So he had several conferences with him and they had a big trial and at that trial all the big city papers it it the newsreel news media had picked it up and they had reporters here, and I was at 'em. {X} section of the New York Times had put a photographer here. They put in special lease telegraph wires because the local operator couldn't send 'em fast enough this press. And Indians flocked in here from as far away as Oklahoma to that trial, and in Macon just about stood on his head everybody about a week or two while the trial was going on.
Interviewer:  About how many years ago was it?
556:  That was back in the fifties.
Interviewer:  Fifties?
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  And you uh how old was the chief and
556:  Well, he was a hundred-and-four when he died in nineteen-seventy. He was he was pretty up in years and even then
Interviewer:  Must've been.
556:  But anyhow, we got this lawyer, and the courtroom was packed. All the reporters were there with their notebooks at the ready. Photographers everywhere. Crack reporter named {D: Megso} {NS} from New Orleans item came up, and he made a big deal out of it in the headlines and all the papers. And by the way, the pictures were in there {X} section of the New York Times. I remember that very well. And he the uh district attorney presented the case. The evidence against the Indian. It had to all be done through uh interpreters. So this {NS} got up, and he made a speech. Man, it must've lasted an hour. Uh, he dwelt on the injustice that the Choctaws had been submitted to by the white people and all. He just raved, and the jury wasn't not ten minutes. Not guilty. Turn him loose.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Mm-hmm. Not guilty. He proved it. He shot him in self-defense.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. You say you have uh you found a lot of Indian relics.
556:  Oh yeah. There's still lots of 'em here. I have found five. Been picking 'em up ever since I was a kid. All sorts of stuff. I'll show you down in here. Have you got time to go by the museum today?
Interviewer:  I would like to try tomorrow.
556:  Well, alright. We'll go tomorrow. I have quite a collection down at the museum. Lots of other old things down there. You talked about lighter nuts. That's what they used to use in the old cabinet. I have some of those.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  They smoked and flared, you know. Till they'd burn out.
Interviewer:  I wonder we could ask you some more questions about the house uh while it's fresh in our minds uh. Did you ever uh you mentioned the stove in the kitchen. That burned wood?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  You never burned any coal?
556:  No, never heard of coal. We burned wood. Kalamazoo range.
Interviewer:  Kalamazoo.
556:  Old Kalamazoo.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. If you uh people had coal, what did they keep the coal in?
556:  They didn't have any coal.
Interviewer:  Didn't have any.
556:  There was no such thing as coal.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Had the wood box sitting by the fireplaces. Kept the wood in.
Interviewer:  And {NS} you mentioned the smokestack on the uh evaporator
556:  Molasses mill.
Interviewer:  Molasses mill uh the difference between a uh floo and a chimney some sometimes I hear floo and sometimes it's chimney.
556:  Well, a flue was generally a small chimney, as I understand it. It was uh just a small chimney.
Interviewer:  #1 Uh. Now would that be these types you see on wood houses? Just to the roof? #
556:  #2 Yeah. # Yeah, just a small one. And front of this house had chimneys on it. Enormous chimneys.
Interviewer:  Which come would start
556:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Start on the ground. #
556:  All the way from the ground up.
Interviewer:  Outside.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  I see. You mentioned a slop bucket or slop what was it you had it outside?
556:  Outside the kitchen. Well, it
Interviewer:  Can of
556:  That's right anything that was left over that was edible the cook dropped in there for the hogs.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  He went out and put that in the hog trough.
Interviewer:  Where would you keep water? Uh. To drink?
556:  Every time you wanted a bucket a a drink of water you drew up a fresh bucket out of the well.
Interviewer:  Uh, what kind of bucket was that uh?
556:  Well it was it was just a metal bucket. Had a witness had a witness on the well, you know. And I know every time my grandfather wanted a drink of water. "Get me a fresh bucket of water." So I had to go draw fresh bucket. Of course, I'd set down a bucket with a dipper, and soon got warm, see? Get a fresh bucket cold.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Every time company came, fresh bucket of water.
Interviewer:  What did you uh you said you milked six cows. Uh what did you milk the cows into?
556:  Water bucket. A stool and a buckets.
Interviewer:  Same same type bucket.
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  You don't remember cedar buckets and they were not
556:  We yeah we had cedar buckets. We used a cedar bucket for the water. {NS} That we drank out of. Everybody drank out of the same dipper. Never heard about uh uh germs in those days. Well, that dipper floated on that bucket of water.
Interviewer:  By the way, you mentioned uh milking. Would you explain the different uh how you'd milk the uh cows in the bucket. Then, what would be the next step?
556:  You know, when the bucket got full, you went poured it in a big in a larger container.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  Get it into the house and poured it into this uh
Interviewer:  Did you strain uh?
556:  Oh yeah, I strained it. Yeah, sure. I strained it through a strainer.
Interviewer:  Was that uh made of what was the strainer made of?
556:  It's very fine mesh wire. Copper, seemed to be copper. Very fine and You strained it and then you uh {NS} The milk was to be churned you put down earthen wear container for it to turn to clabber. Then, you'd churn it, the butter.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  #1 I still have two of the churns down at the museum. #
Interviewer:  #2 I know. # Mm-hmm.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Do do you remember uh anything made out of the clabber?
556:  Well, we made uh we used to have a Jewish friend called it {D: smilkees} It was uh We used to my grandmother would uh put the clabber in a in a sack and hang it up and let it drip. And then that would very good uh was say that with sugar.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Do your did your family say uh spare case or
556:  No, we didn't call it smilkees, but this Jewish friend did call it smilkees. But we didn't call it smilkees.
Interviewer:  #1 That's uh that's an eastern Pennsylvania term. #
556:  #2 Uh. Yeah. #
Interviewer:  Uh. By the way, that's uh German.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {X} What did your family call it? Uh.
556:  Well
Interviewer:  Recall?
556:  No, we just called it clabber, but this old German, he chopped onions up in his.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  He put pepper and salt and onions.
Interviewer:  #1 And then he said I smilkees and he'd chop all this onions up. See in the duh. #
556:  #2 I see. #
Interviewer:  In the uh kitchen {NS} what would you use to fry eggs in?
556:  In in a skillet. On a skillet. Flat skillet.
Interviewer:  If the skillet had you ever see a skillet with legs?
556:  Yeah, and there's one right down there. {NS} You had on there see right on the end of that.
Interviewer:  Oh, sure.
556:  See, now we had a top to it.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  And now the negroes used that. They cooked everything in that skillet. It had a top on it, and they put corn on the bottom and on top of it, too. I don't have the copy yet, but that's the skillet.
Interviewer:  I hope the rain goes away, so I can get some pictures tomorrow uh.
556:  That's a three-legged skillet. That that there.
Interviewer:  And do you ever call it an oven?
556:  No, but we had a Dutch oven. #1 Had a Dutch oven. #
Interviewer:  #2 Is that something different? #
556:  That was you set it in front of the fire.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  My grandmother had a Dutch oven. It was, you know, semi-circular. Set on three legs. And she'd put bread in there and set it in front of the fire and reflect it against that, and it'd cook perfectly in that Dutch oven.
Interviewer:  It didn't have legs on it.
556:  Had three legs on it.
Interviewer:  Well, the difference then between the Dutch oven and a and a three-legged skillet I wonder is it would be the same thing or
556:  No, a three-legged skilled had fire under it, and on top of it, too. You see, it had the niggers called it the lid.
Interviewer:  Oh, I see.
556:  That you put coal to fire on top of it and under it, too. But the Dutch oven, you see, it had no fire. You set it in front of the fireplace. Uh when there was a fire in the fireplace. And she would put biscuit in that thing and and it was uh shiny inside in the heat, you know.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  It would have solved the heat. You sit that thing in front of a roaring fire and a biscuit would cook perfectly in that Dutch oven.
Interviewer:  Uh. You mentioned uh in the chickens. Did you ever put anything in the nest to fool a hen?
556:  Had nest eggs.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  Chi-China.
Interviewer:  Then you have {X}
556:  China nest eggs. And a lot of people used uh gourds.
Interviewer:  Oh, little gourds?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  That
556:  Yeah. That's the hens the hens thought that was an egg. They'd put those gourds in there or China nest eggs,
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  and see it looked like an egg.
Interviewer:  Sure.
556:  #1 That was a gourd. Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Same size. # {NS} Different uh things you different kinds of knives and utensils used at the table. Uh, for example, uh case knives that were uh
556:  Yeah, were case knives mighty well. They had a bone handle to 'em.
Interviewer:  Bone.
556:  Yeah, we didn't use those for company. We used 'em every day. For company, we got out the silverware.
Interviewer:  Oh, I see. Case knives was the ordinary thing.
556:  Just the ordinary, everyday knife.
Interviewer:  And the knife uh the other utensils you recall from the kitchen or you could use at the table.
556:  Or of course, we used knives and forks and spoons just like we do now. By the way, I have one of my grandfather's tablespoons and now he sent three-hundred silver dollars up to Philadelphia. And had him a had him some uh tableware, but it was so soft. I have one of the tablespoons and one of the teaspoons made out of that coin silver in there right now. But it was very soft. It would break, you know. And so we don't use 'em.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I had this repaired. It was broken. He sunk these three-hundred silver dollars and had this coin silver set made out of it.
Interviewer:  How bout the uh sharp knives in the kitchen. What would you call 'em uh?
556:  Butcher knives.
Interviewer:  They would be
556:  Oh yeah, we had several butcher knives. They keep those sharp and on the wet rocks cut meat and stuff like that.
Interviewer:  In town, I understand the at least in some sections, you bought met meat, you wouldn't go to the butcher shop. You'd go to the uh what was a place you'd go
556:  #1 Well, #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} county #
556:  When I first remember, the farmer was coming around in buggies door-to-door, selling out of the buggy.
Interviewer:  Oh, I see.
556:  They had they would uh kill a beef and get to town as quick as possible with it and go from door-to-door and cut it off right then, so it had the scales on the buggy. And they'd sell it out of the back of the buggy. That was before they had a meat market. And that was quite common and that and milk. And there used to be an old man here had a kind of a hat, and he had his milk in five-gallon cans. He'd come down this street, holler milk milk milk. You'd go out with your bucket. Sweet milk was twenty cents a gallon. Buttermilk was five cents a gallon, and butter was twenty cents a pound. That was a standard price of buttermilk. Five cents a gallon, and you'd go out with your bucket, and he'd measure out what you wanted, and you'd pay him, and he'd drive on to the next house. {NS} But most people in town in those days kept a cow in the backyard.
Interviewer:  I see, so they made their own.
556:  Yeah, they all kept a cow and chickens. Of course you couldn't buy milk or butter in the stores.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  That was unheard of. If you didn't have a cow or the cow went dry, this old man would come by. He worked the town every morning with his milk wagon.
Interviewer:  {NS} The uh {NS} natural uh spigot on a barrel uh when you first got water pumped into the house, what did you call this thing on uh the sink uh? Did you call that a spigot?
556:  Yeah. Well, a faucet.
Interviewer:  Faucet.
556:  Faucet.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And in the yard, if you have something that you use the hose, uh what is that out there?
556:  Faucet.
Interviewer:  That's a faucet, too. {NS} And uh kinds of uh things to use. For example, for dishes, to wash them, dry them, or the bathroom for yourself. Are there any terms that you'd use for that?
556:  We didn't have a bathroom. {NS}
Interviewer:  Uh, I mean that or {NS} Uh, you had. Well, what did you use on your face to dry with?
556:  Towel.{C: rustling}
Interviewer:  {D: Uh. Idaho's the same fussy}
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Alright uh.
556:  Sears-Roebuck. Sent me a reward. We had a now the tub with children we had a big tin tub uh shaped kind of like a hat. And we'd set it out in the yard and let the sun warm the water, we never. Or we didn't sit in it. Sun would shine on it, it would burn you. Had a place to sit on it. We'd forget about that and sit down. That hot melt. You'd get up
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Set it out and in the uh you know the summer uh let the sun warm the water. Course taking a bath you had to get in the winter you had to get it out of this reservoir instead of around the stove. Oh boy.
Interviewer:  Uh, {NS} the thing you use in your face would be a wash
556:  Yeah, a wash rag.
Interviewer:  And a rag on the dishes?
556:  Dish rag.
Interviewer:  Dish rag. And uh
556:  The towel you washed the dishes was called a cup towel.
Interviewer:  Oh, that's a cup towel.
556:  That was a cup towel that you dried 'em with. You dried 'em with a cup towel, and you washed 'em with a wash rag.
Interviewer:  I see. The uh I didn't ask you this before. The uh place where you go to the toilet. Do you have any joking terms for that outside?
556:  Well, you know uh when Chick Sale came along. Of course, uh yeah they said way back you know, had the half moons on it, and also lots of washing better watch that. It stunk. Kept the Sears-Roebuck catalog hanging out there and a bucket of cards over there bottom box.
Interviewer:  The uh did you call it an outhouse?
556:  Outhouse.
Interviewer:  Outhouse.
556:  Back house, outhouse.
Interviewer:  Any other joking terms, more or less, that you remember?
556:  Remember anything. I can't remember anything else we called it generally called it an outhouse.
Interviewer:  And uh some questions about uh what a woman would wear in the kitchen. What would she wear to protect her dress?
556:  Apron.
Interviewer:  And how high would that come?
556:  That apron would cover. It went up most some of them were tied at the waist, some of 'em went up to their shoulders.
Interviewer:  The whole way?
556:  Yeah, all the way with most of 'em, as I say, were at the waist, but they all wore aprons. It was back about apron the whole time then.
Interviewer:  And uh if a woman would take a piece of cloth to a merchant showing the kind of cloth she wanted, she'd call that a she'd go to town with a
556:  Sample.
Interviewer:  Sample. And
556:  I seen a many colored woman going in to buy a piece of cloth to cutting off a piece just a little piece, and she'd chew it. Said, "I'm trying too see if it would fade." I seen that done a many a time. They'd take that piece of little piece of cloth and chew it, you know. Trying to see if it fades. If it fades, she wouldn't buy it.
Interviewer:  Now, I see.
556:  They'd chew that piece of cloth. I seen that done many a times.
Interviewer:  How bout uh buying some cloth and boiling it and then uh having what to they call that? If say a new shirt that they couldn't get the collar button after they boiled it. They say the cloth
556:  Would shrink, you mean?
Interviewer:  Would shrink or they'd say shrink?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Wouldn't say draw up?
556:  No, it's it's well either either term. Uh, I've heard them uh use that often. Draw up. Either draw up or shrink. Uh, but a lot of that cloth, that especially the cheap cloth would shrink. Draw up badly.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And and the colors went fast. That's why they chewed it, to see if it would fade.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  You'd see a many piece of cloth after it'd got washed a couple of times. You wouldn't know what color it was to start with. Especially cheaper cloth. They bought a called it was calico. Five cents a yard. It couldn't have been very fine cloth then. And the colors were evidently stamped on it because they would fade badly.
Interviewer:  The thing that's uh the woman would carry to town uh with uh money a large thing or small thing just for the coins
556:  Did you know there wasn't no such thing as purses as we know it today back in those days?
Interviewer:  I was wondering.
556:  These big purses they carry now. They never heard of such a thing.
Interviewer:  She'd carry what instead?
556:  Uh. My grandmother had a little thing little like a little suitcase a little about that long with a handle on it. Looked like a little bag, but as far as the bag like the ladies use now, they never saw or heard of such things. She had a little bag a little looked like a little suitcase.
Interviewer:  And how about uh jewelry around her wrist, uh?
556:  Well, lot of 'em had bracelets. I remember bracelets and also breast pins. They wore breast pins, and
Interviewer:  You mentioned a brooch that uh
556:  #1 Brooches. #
Interviewer:  #2 Your Aunt Jane and uh #
556:  Yeah, Aunt Jane, my grandmother gave her her brooch eventually. Boy, she admired that brooch. She I never seen her without that brooch on. It was about bout that big. Beautiful thing. She loved
Interviewer:  The neck, around her neck
556:  Well, they wore necklaces. Uh most mostly out of glass beads.
Interviewer:  I'm curious about a term, pair of beads. What does that mean to you, and
556:  A pair of beads I
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear that?
556:  No. I never heard that.
Interviewer:  And if a woman might do uh spend a lot of time in front of the mirror, you'd say well she's
556:  Primping.
Interviewer:  She's primping.
556:  Primping. Yeah, oh, she's primping. All the girls primped.
Interviewer:  And if a man uh was liked to look pretty nice, say he he liked to get all
556:  Well, they called 'em dudes.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  They were dudes. They'd like to get all gussied up.
Interviewer:  It's gussied.
556:  They got gussied up, and then he was a dude.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  {NW}
Interviewer:  And the thing that a woman would wear to keep the sun off uh
556:  Sun bonnets.
Interviewer:  And uh would carry.
556:  Parasol.
Interviewer:  And would the thing she used to for rain be different from what she used?
556:  Well, that was an umbrella, now. You carried a parasol to keep the sun off and an umbrella to keep the rain off.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Parasol would carry more in autumn, but summer wasn't that big. They were they were long hell, they were strictly ornamental.
Interviewer:  Ornamental.
556:  Yeah, you see 'em walking along with them cross their shoulder. Very small.
Interviewer:  You mentioned uh the suits that uh relatives from Virginia sent made out of wool.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  You sent them. Uh how did the men keep up uh their trousers?
556:  How to keep 'em pressed?
Interviewer:  Or how did they hold them up?
556:  Oh, with suspenders. And kept them pressed under the mattress.
Interviewer:  Oh, under the mattress?
556:  Yeah, you take 'em off at night and put 'em under the mattress. Crease 'em. Put your creases in 'em. And lay 'em under the mattress.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And {C: laughing} Seen my father many night put his pants under the mattress.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh if what do they wear for for to work in?
556:  Overalls.
Interviewer:  And that would come
556:  #1 Yeah, with a bib. With a bib. #
Interviewer:  #2 Be the {X} # Did you ever hear the word uh jeans used?
556:  #1 Oh yeah. Blue jeans. #
Interviewer:  #2 #
556:  Jeans, yeah. That was a favorite cloth of the colored hands to wear jeans. Jeans.
Interviewer:  Now jeans did not come up to
556:  No, they were just regular trousers.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Wore those with suspenders.
Interviewer:  And if a man would have wear his coat to church with a lot of things in it, say his pockets would all
556:  Bulge out.
Interviewer:  Bulge out. If any other terms come to your mind, uh like that I appreciate your. As a matter of fact, I if anything comes occurs to you uh perhaps put 'em on tape tomorrow. Uh the vest was a regular part.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  But uh.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  Yeah, when you dressed up, you always put on a vest. Is that was. They have hardly went somebody put the watch the watch with the chain across the vest. Mm.
Interviewer:  Uh, did you ever use the word uh vittles?
556:  Oh yeah. Uh vittles. Oh. Vittles, sure.
Interviewer:  And that meant everything
556:  Anything to eat was vittles.
Interviewer:  And you ate between meals uh you were said to have a
556:  Snack.
Interviewer:  And if you had something that you couldn't eat uh too much of it, then you'd have it the next day. That would be
556:  Leftovers.
Interviewer:  Leftovers. And uh would uh the things that you'd have, you mentioned the vinegar cruets and the pepper sauce. Uh what other things would you have on the table to season
556:  Salt and pepper and the vinegar cruet was about all.
Interviewer:  About it?
556:  That's all we had.
Interviewer:  Did you ever have uh anything for molasses?
556:  Had a molasses pitcher with one of these snap tops {X}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Press it down, then you turn it loose, and slop.
Interviewer:  They wouldn't call that a stand. That was a pitcher.
556:  A molasses pitcher.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And if somebody {NS} if somebody's cooking something and you and it uh looks good and fresh, and you say it's you used to say it's sniff and you'd say it just what?
556:  You mean when I smell it?
Interviewer:  Yes, uh just they say just smell it or smell that.
556:  I guess so. I don't remember any particular word for that now.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And {NS} you mentioned uh the making butter. What would you say when the butter was was old and you couldn't eat it? You'd say
556:  Rancid, stale.
Interviewer:  Rancid.
556:  Of course the butter after you churned it, you took it out of the churn, put the cold water on a big pan, and worked the water out of it. Then you put it in the mold. Butter mold. {NS} Held about a pound. I'll show you some of the molds. Then, you had little individual molds about that big for each plate.
Interviewer:  Alright, see.
556:  A little pat at each plate. Course when cold water the butter became all that stiff, so you got to you put it in the mold. It was popped out of that mold. And then if you had the, you know, maybe six, eight people around the table, eat and gave each one a little a little individual butter mold. I'll show you to got a couple, each individual.
Interviewer:  Do you recall making hominy?
556:  Oh yeah. Uh. Oh gosh, yeah.
Interviewer:  How uh comment on that?
556:  Well, first, my grandmother had a vat that they put wood ashes in. That and a with a a receptacle that came out as lye, you know. And also made some lye soap out of that. But they would take this lye and a big pot of corn and put that lye in this pot of corn, and that would remove the husk from the grain, see? But after you got all the husks of it. Then you had to wash them because that lye was poison, see? And you had to wash that corn very thoroughly through several uh washings of of clear water before you cooked it. Then you cooked it, and it was delicious.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And that's the way they made hominy.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And now I knew I grits now a lot of people referred to grits as hominy. Hominy grits. Well, we never heard of such a thing.
Interviewer:  I was gonna ask you
556:  Grits was grits, and hominy was a whole grain.
Interviewer:  A whole.
556:  The whole grain and with butter and salt and pepper, it was delicious. I did love the stuff.
Interviewer:  And uh how would were eggs cooked mostly? Uh
556:  Well, they they have several ways of cooking 'em. They they'd scrambled 'em, boil 'em, soft boil 'em. And uh of course, fried eggs and
Interviewer:  Did you uh ever poach?
556:  Poached eggs, oh yeah. That was very common, poached egg poach it in a bottle of water. They put and a big skillet like that the water would boil and you'd break the egg in the skillet and poach it.
Interviewer:  The uh inside of the egg would be known as uh
556:  The yolk.
Interviewer:  They always said yolk. And the {NS} they never referred to the yolk as the yellow?
556:  Oh, they yeah, the kids always got the yellow and the white. #1 The yellow and the white. The yellow and the white. #
Interviewer:  #2 The yellow and the white? #
556:  The yellow and the white, yeah.
Interviewer:  You were mentioning uh uh corn dumplings that I don't believe the recording was on when were were talking about that uh would you
556:  Corn meal dumplings?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Well, my grandmother would take a big big iron pot. And generally with a hog jowl. I don't know why with a hog jowl, but she generally used a hog jowl. And these uh corn dumplings, the secret was to keep the dumpling from disintegrating. Just to hold together. And it was cooked in this pot. After the water got to boiling with the hog jowl, and then you drop these dumplings in. And uh as I say it uh a good cook's dumpling's never separated. And it would be seasoned up good with salt and pepper and maybe a bit of onion. And I thought they were the best things in this world. They just they would hold together.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  They were really good.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Would you comment on other uh things that you made out of corn meal uh? {NS}
556:  Well, our favorite was uh as we called 'em, batter cakes. Our favorite breakfast was uh stacks of batter cakes with {NS} with uh we called it Louisiana molasses. Ribbon cane molasses. {NS} And either fried ham or bacon out of the smokehouse with sausage. And of course coffee but I usually think those hotcakes cook would keep constantly coming with 'em. The kitchen was next to the dining room, and it {X} she'd come with a fresh batch. Plenty of butter. Hotcakes. I bet that cook could cook up a thousand hotcakes every morning. Keep her trotting with hotcakes all the time. Oh cakes.
Interviewer:  How bout a uh {NS} the difference between a hotcake and a ho cake?
556:  Well a ho cake was made on top of the stove with nothing but salt and meal and water. My wife makes it all the time right here right now. That's made on top of a stove. The word ho cake they used to make it on the ho. On a on a metal ho. That's where we got the term, but a ho cake now if just a cake made with made with uh meal and water and salt and and a little grease. Bacon grease they. On the top of the stove on a flat skillet. And by the way, we had some done just the other day.
Interviewer:  That right?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  You said that you don't remember corn dodgers, right?
556:  Well, they call corn meal corn dodgers. Yeah, I remember that term very well. Corn dodgers.
Interviewer:  Would would that be something fried or?
556:  No, it was just a smaller ho cake. Instead of making one big cake, you'd make it in small pieces like that.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And a hush puppy or
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Would that be the
556:  Yeah, we had hush puppies, too.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. The hush puppies uh it's like a dodger except that it's
556:  Except it's seasoned different. A hush puppy's generally had onion, uh salt, pepper, and something like that. They were seasoned different. Mostly with onions in 'em. And they got the term well you could throw a piece of bread out to make the puppies hush barking. That's where the term came from. The cook would throw out several pieces of cornbread. They'd get the dogs would get to barking and howling, she threw out this
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That's where they got its name. The term hush puppy.
Interviewer:  Again, I we talked about this but not while the recording was on. The difference between mush and kush.
556:  Well, kush I guess you'd call a spoon bread today.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But it was a It wasn't as as thin as mush, and it wasn't as thick as cornbread. It was in between. I guess you'd call it spoon bread. Made in the deep skillet. And served with butter and thought and we thought that was good eating. That was kush. A lot of these old things were were a relic of the war when they had to improvise, and as I told you, my grandmother had to do all kind of things uh to get by. And by the way, my grandmother stayed on that plantation, not a white person on the place, surrounded by nigger slaves, not a lock on a door. Not one slave ever did anything in this world out of line. They stayed there and ran the place as best they could while my grandfather and all the other men were off at war. Not one slave in the entire South, I don't believe, ever got one inch out of line. Now that's something. And she lived out on that place out in the country by herself with four little children surrounded by these slaves. Now, had they had they been downtrodden and beaten they had the opportunity of their lifetime to get even, didn't they? Not one slave
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  ever got out of line.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And they worshiped the family and do anything in the world to took care of them. They why I grew up with all the old niggers out there. I loved 'em, man, I'm telling you I We just we don't have it today, but people don't realize uh how we loved those old niggers and how good they were to us and we were to them.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I remember the old slave told me once that a slave trader. He was a they had two or three different types. There was a body servant, the house servant, the field servant, you see? And they were widely separated. This house servant wouldn't have anything to do with these field servants. They were so far above 'em. So this was a house servant. Old Uncle Ab uh Uncle Nelson Buck He wore a silk hat and a as he said on a white shirt and a long-tailed coat and he drove the carriage. He was a house servant. And one day a slave trader came along and tried to buy him, offered his master several thousand dollars. And he says, "You have insulted me and my family live my house leave my house at once. Get out of my house!" Says oh, "You've insulted me." Said, "We don't sell our people. Now, leave here. Get out of here." Insulted him by trying to buy one of his people. Said, "We don't sell our people. What are you talking about?" And ordered him out of the house. {NS} "Get out of my house," he said.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  And so they. But as I say, there was a wide social difference between the house servants and the field servants. And in fact, they rarely spoke to 'em. There's nothing they could do with 'em. They were so far above 'em. They stayed in the house. They stayed dressed up, you know, and and uh I my grandfather went to the war. He carried his old body servant with him. Named {D: Comps} And he brought him home when he got wounded and he And by the way, I meant to tell you, out here in the backyard, he built him a house right out here. {D: Comps} lived out and he died out in the backyard. He never left it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Although he was he wasn't a slave as he was free then. But he stayed with him till he died. In fact, all of 'em did. He didn't let 'em let 'em leave. He told 'em free go ahead if you want to. Oh. {X} #1 Well #
Interviewer:  #2 You mentioned uh how they used to tell how old they were {NS} for growing up. #
556:  Everything was dated from the surrender. You'd ask one old negro, "How old are you?" "Well, I was born two years before the surrender." And another one, "I was born five years after the surrender." Uh during the surrender, at the time of the surrender, everything dated from the surrender. Everything.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And of course they you asked what the surrender was they didn't know. And but that's the way they dated it.
Interviewer:  {X} time. Um I have some more questions here about uh foods. Did you uh did you use wheat very much or flour? I think you said uh you mentioned butter uh
556:  Yeah, well before the war, flour milled was quite common through this country. And uh all the planters raised lots of lots of uh the wheat. And had they own their own uh flour ground at these wheat at these mills. But that went out of that seemed to have gone out about soon after the war. And oh my grandfather used to tell me about how about how he carried his wheat down and they see it like they sifted through silk. Some kind of a silk cloth. But anyhow, he said it was very fine flour. Cause it was soft wheat, and he said every you never bought any flour at the store. We had our own flour, but that went out and by the way, there's still wheat a lot of wheat a lot of wheat raisers in this county now. They gone back to it. But at that time, there were no wheat mills. And only and we had to buy our flour and bought it by the barrel. By the barrel. Didn't think much of a person who bought less than a barrel of flour. Then, they got out this half barrel and then sacks. Well, lord, I We always bought a barrel. Bought a barrel of flour.
Interviewer:  Did you uh comment on that letter that you
556:  Well, I have this letter written to this old water mill, and by the way, it was in existence up until a year or so ago. This uh there's still some ropes this mill and told him he had plenty of wheat but no flour and said you said you're so busy grinding flour for the confederate army, you can't take care of your regular customers. Said I've got plenty of wheat and not a ounce of flour in the house. and I said, "I wish you'd take care of some of your regular customers. Stop a day or two a day or two and grind some wheat for your regular customers. Forget about the confederate army." And he was just uh you know I berating the man for not waiting on his regular customers, and the fellow I know what he was on. They put him on a hundred percent war. Grinding mill, grinding wheat for the for the army.
Interviewer:  Did you uh did your mother bake uh uh wheat bread uh
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  what did you call that?
556:  We just called it homemade bread.
Interviewer:  Homemade?
556:  Yeah, she yeah, we uh she'd bake up these loaves of bread. Very good.
Interviewer:  With the light bread?
556:  Light bread. Only ours was homemade bread to lighten in. Now you could buy lightened bread. When you come to town, you go to the store and buy light bread, but we we looked down on that stuff. Wouldn't buy that kind of stuff. We'd make it at home, so
Interviewer:  #1 So the light bread was something you buy in the store? The same this as home homemade? #
556:  #2 Yeah. # Homemade bread uh, which we thought was way better than this cheap light bread you bought for a nickel a loaf in the store.
Interviewer:  By the way uh uh, how would you make that distinction uh in clothes or anything else? Uh, it's something
556:  Back?
speaker#3:  {X}
556:  Uh.
Interviewer:  If something came from a uh store, felt it was cheaper, you'd say, "Well, that's just
556:  Well, the niggers referred to it as store bought stuff. Anything store bought.
Interviewer:  And they the that implied that it was cheaper uh
556:  Yeah and inferior quality
Interviewer:  #1 I see. #
556:  #2 Something like that. # You'd take this bread we made at home. It's gonna sit much better than this uh they called it store bought bread.
Interviewer:  And uh did you did you make any uh any desserts or things say in a deep dish?
556:  Oh yeah. Yeah, sure.
Interviewer:  #1 Oh yes. Uh-huh. #
556:  #2 Had apple cobbler and peach cobbler and there's sticky I was telling you made out of # biscuit dough and molasses cooked in a big iron skillet, and course we had plenty of peaches in the orchard and we had uh fresh peaches and cream quite often. And app- I apples we had apples we had it made oh apple pie was We had lots of apple pie. Apple pie and peach pies.
Interviewer:  If you uh had a pudding, did you put anything over the pudding to make it more interesting or?
556:  You know we didn't have much pudding. I we just didn't I don't remember thinking about I don't think we had much pudding. I don't remember anything about much pudding.
Interviewer:  #1 How bout uh fish and seafood? #
556:  #2 Mm. # Well, we had course living near the river and the lakes, we had lots of fish, quail, squirrels, {NS} lots of quail. Quail were very common, step outside the door. As we call, kill a mess of quail right quick. Wild turkeys. My father was He was quite a he was a wild turkey hunter, and he'd kill lots of wild turkeys. And fish. We had plenty of fish. Fish anywhere. We were big fishermen.
Interviewer:  When do you remember uh having imported things? See, for example
556:  Never heard of such things.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  We used to get oysters every now and then, and she'd ship 'em. They would ship uh a keg of oysters in the shell up from Mobile up there on the railroad, which was built in eighteen what? Fifty-four. They're we would get At end, we would get a keg of oysters in the shell packed in ice from Mobile. But that was the only seafood. It was oysters.
Interviewer:  The uh is shrimp {X}?
556:  Never heard of shrimp. Never heard of shrimp.
Interviewer:  It didn't get popular?
556:  No, never heard of shrimp, but we did get oysters at intervals. Rarely was maybe Christmas or Thanksgiving or something, we'd get a keg of oysters.
Interviewer:  You uh mentioned some things about uh some different meats that you'd get off the the hogs. Uh. Did the is the fatty meat the ones
556:  That was you was had making the lard.
Interviewer:  Oh, I
556:  All the fat was used in rendering the lard. They made lard and packed it in twenty-five pound cans.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Oh, that was used all the fat was used in the rendering the lard, and sure a lard.
Interviewer:  And and what would you make uh uh what would you call what you made what we call bacon today uh, what did you call?
556:  Sides. The side meat. That was sides, they called it.
Interviewer:  Now, they had a lot of you salted it, right?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  And you had a lot of fat in it?
556:  {D: streakaline}
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Called it streakaline. The more streaks it had, the better it was.
Interviewer:  And {NS} the uh stuff that you'd have to trim off before you could eat the streakaline, cut it off and you call that the rind or the skin?
556:  Rind.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  She took the rind and opened. We left the rind on, and sometimes we cut the rind. Most times we'd leave it on.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  We boiled by cutting the rind off of it.
Interviewer:  You mentioned uh sauce and uh I don't think I asked you did did you did the white people and the colored people, either one, have names for all the organs? They'd use all the organs.
556:  Yeah, there was liver and the lights.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  The liver and lights. I remember that very well. Which was it? The liver and the lungs. And the niggers were they liked the liver and the lights. They made hash out of it, they called it.
Interviewer:  I was gonna ask you that uh it's uh a they call it a hash.
556:  Hash.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  They'd chop up this liver and lights altogether and cook it in a big pot, you know. Called it hash.
Interviewer:  {NS} And the uh intestines we'd call
556:  They's clean and stuff sausage except the sausages and that was
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Do you uh eat chitterlings?
556:  Oh yeah. Had chitterlings. I never did like chitterlings, but boy, the colored folks really went for the chitterlings.
Interviewer:  And I think I asked you about the sausage and pudding uh or cheese liver cheese liver pudding? Uh, blood pudding.
556:  No, didn't have any of that.
Interviewer:  And if meat uh kept too long, then you'd say it's
556:  It was either rancid or stale. {NS} But you know that meat, I've seen it three years old. That's just #1 Uh, yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Three years? # Uh-huh.
556:  I remember one of the old niggers out there. And he was eating and I said, "What are you having for dinner today, Percy?" I see him eating some of that yeah full ass ham and bacon. Yeah, full ass, he said. Other words, it was two years old. That's still good. It's good as ever.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Somebody you got a full ass ham. You know hanging out in the smoke house, it it's so much of it, you just couldn't get to it you know, you're supposed to
Interviewer:  And we'd keep it in the smoke house?
556:  Yeah, hang it up there and it would keep forever, you know. After it was smoked. And uh.
Interviewer:  How bout when you ate chicken? Do you remember a bone like this?
556:  Pulley bone.
Interviewer:  And do you have any names uh for the big part that you'd pull off? #1 The small part? #
556:  #2 Pull, the pulley bone. #
Interviewer:  Yeah, it's suppose you broke the pulley bone. Did you have a name for the big
556:  Yeah, there was a short pulley bone and a long pulley bone. You always when you ate the pulley bone, you turns and pull. And whoever got the short piece is supposed to have bad luck. And whoever got the long piece had good luck. You always pulled the pulley bone.
Interviewer:  You ever call that long piece the boy bone? The pull bone?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I remember the pulley bone very well. I was over at uh Warm Springs, Georgia. We're in the kitchen of Little White House
Interviewer:  Oh yes.
556:  And the old cook was still at it, used to cook for President Roosevelt and on the wall there's a turkey pulley bone, and she had written under there, this is the first turkey I ever cooked for this is the pulley bone out of the first turkey I ever cooked for the Roosevelts. And that pulley bone stuck on the wall with a thumbtack.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  The first turkey I ever cooked for the Roosevelts.
Interviewer:  Well sir, I I uh certainly appreciate uh the time you give me today and would tomorrow be acceptable time?
556:  Alright.
Interviewer:  About the same about the same time uh nine or ten. I'm staying there and sometimes I have to wait a long time for breakfast. You can't really predict uh what
556:  Where where are you staying? In Columbus?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Why don't you stay here? We've got a good motel here.
Interviewer:  Well, I uh I didn't know about it or I I would have stay checked in here.
556:  Good food up there.
Interviewer:  And uh would have been much more
556:  Well, anytime you come along would be alright. Say, nine thirty?
Interviewer:  #1 Well, that would be a satisfactory time for me. #
556:  #2 That's fine. #
Interviewer:  The distinction then between the the uh Is that a distinction between what the negroes and the whites say?
556:  Well the niggers called it hash, and the white people called it haslits, as I remember. Haslits.
Interviewer:  Alright.
556:  This is was a mixture of the liver and the the lights.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Boiled together in a pot with onions and salt and pepper, and that was called haslits.
Interviewer:  Did they use the heart to
556:  #1 Oh yeah. Whole thing. #
Interviewer:  #2 And # {X}
556:  They used the heart in uh in this sauce, you know. You just cut up everything in there for the sauce.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And it gelled kind of you know when you sliced it. And fried it in batter.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Yeah, it was very good.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  #1 Course I I understand that stores sell that same thing, but they'd call it hog head cheese, I believe they called it. Yeah, it was #
Interviewer:  #2 Hog head cheese? # It was always sauce.
556:  Nothing but sauce.
556:  Ready?
Interviewer:  Alright, sir.
556:  First man. Second man. Third man. Fourth man. Fifth man. Sixth man. Seventh man. Eighth man. Ninth man. Tenth man. Did you?
Interviewer:  Sure {X} That'll do it. If I can remember exactly where the setting was. I'd like to ask you a couple questions. First, uh uh I passed patches of very light ground uh almost a white now and I also passed this limestone that uh or lime plant that is that the same thing? Is that a line kind of?
556:  Well, the proper name for that stuff is chalk. It's the same material as it is in the White Cliffs of Dover over in England.
Interviewer:  Oh, I see.
556:  It's chalk. It's not uh what we'd call limestone. It's the chalk formation.
Interviewer:  So if if people talk about white dirt, uh
556:  Well, that it's in meant a place you see we're sitting on three-hundred feet of that chalk formation. This was the bottom of the ocean at one time. It's been in and out of water three times in its geological history. The upper cretaceous geological period is what we're in what we in. And there's three-hundred feet of that stuff, we're sitting on it right now. And it was formed at the rate of one inch every hundred years. So you can figure out how long we was underwater here.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  You can find all kind of sea animals and sea materials. Oyster shells, shrimp all ossified of course. I have a collection down at the museum I'll show you. Picked up right here. And, as I say, the- they go from Mexico {D:for far north} to St. Louis. As far north as St. Louis. And this country's been in and out of water three times, in it's geological history.
Interviewer:  What does that do to the farming? Uh is that
556:  #1 Well, it course it's a lot of the land #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  needs lime and a lot of it don't. A lot of it's got it already. That's why you see all these lime plants here. They dig this stuff and process it and it's and they sell it to farmers who don't have lime in their soil, you see, you've got to have lime in your soil to sweeten it.
Interviewer:  Now which is the post oak? Is that the post oak, line is?
556:  That's just kind of a clay land. Uh, of course, that's mostly west of the river, and all over this side mostly is black land.
Interviewer:  I see. So this this chalk really is a monster kind of outcropping.
556:  Yeah, it's sometime it's close to the surface. Sometimes it's a good ways down. But a lot of time, it's right on the surface. You'll see just a skim of dirt.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And can you grow anything in it? Uh
556:  Oh yeah. Well, if it's enough soil there. If they've got enough soil it's it's good for grass. You notice on the way from here to Brookswood you notice all these grasslands on your right coming down.
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  That's good pasture land. It makes good pasture land. Of course, they fertilize. So.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  They fertilize it by uh plains. Liquid fertilizer.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Course if you've got enough salt on it, course. Oh it's under all this soil for that matter, but some of it is a good ways down.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Out here at these uh mine plants they do it's just strip mining all it is. They pushed the surface dirt off and then they got three-hundred feet of that inexhaustible supply.
Interviewer:  And then uh how the soil is on top of it now or it's in the black belt. That would be the gumbo?
556:  That's the gumbo and it's and it's it's very deep soil, see the the line the uh chalk is a good ways down and some of it and this out here especially it's it's very deep.
Interviewer:  I see. #1 Oh, second question I uh I've seen some people around town here in Macon and in Brooksville and then Columbus who appear to be Mennonites or Irish people. Is there a settlement? #
556:  #2 Right. # Oh yeah, they're pouring in here. Oh yeah, they got a lot of Mennonites coming in.
Interviewer:  So where uh that's interesting and surprising uh fact to me. Where where do they come from?
556:  Uh, they come from the north where Wisconsin, Indiana. Some of 'em as far away as uh Oh, the northern tier of states. They all flocking down here, and they're all good farmers. They by this land, they're very close-knit people. They won't They don't uh mingle much. They don't vote. They don't take any part in civic affairs, and And uh
Interviewer:  And why uh why? I'm familiar with the Amish settlements uh in Pennsylvania and
556:  #1 And yeah, well these are Amish. They off-shooted 'em. #
Interviewer:  #2 And uh # Why would they come here? I
556:  To buy this cheap land. They first in South and they think is cheap now, compared to what they sold there as far up there. Course land up there got very high, and they first started coming down and buying this land when it was so much cheaper. They'd sell out up there for you know a big price, and come down and buy this cheap cheaper land they thought because it's getting pretty high now.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  There's a place sold out here long ago. Six-hundred-and-forty dollars an acre.
Interviewer:  Six-hundred-and-forty.
556:  And I remember when you could buy the best land in {D: Knoxford} county for not over fifty.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Twenty-five to fifty.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  #1 But they #
Interviewer:  #2 You say even this rich black belt uh #
556:  Yeah, you could buy it fifty dollars an acre. That was considered a good price for it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And uh these Amish they an offshoot of the Amish. In fa- we have three different groups of 'em right here. Of a different and they all uh Mennonites, but they're three different groups, but they that's two {X} here. One group has a school out here on old forty-five, and another has one. And they have their own churches. Uh. I guess they're good citizens, but they won't they're very clannish. They won't take any part in civic affairs Or as I said, they don't won't vote. And uh only marry one another.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Now Indiana, they won't drive automobiles. They drive horse and buggies.
556:  Well that's the old orthodox Amish.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  These are
Interviewer:  These will {X}
556:  #1 Yeah yeah they're. Oh gosh, yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 They used machinery #
556:  They're very progressive. But up they use all kinds of machinery. Tractors and {NS} automobiles and they they are they're not the Orthodox Amish.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Although they're related to 'em cause I've seen some of those Orthodox Amish coming down in visit 'em.
Interviewer:  I see. Are they they women have these little
556:  Oh, they all wear have wear that cap, and the men all wear beards.
Interviewer:  Beards and plain clothes?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Well, that's uh some sociology and geology, which
556:  And another thing, they're hardworking people. They sure do work out here
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And they're good people. You if you get in trouble for instance if this house were to be burned, there would be a group of 'em here in the morning to help you put it back to the rights. They uh the motel up here had a fire here some months ago, and next morning there was a group of 'em up with their tools saying we want to help you and and when they had they Camille and on the Gulf coast, a group of them went down there and worked they whether you pay 'em or not they they just want to help, they say.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. So they're uh in while they don't vote or participate in civic affairs, they are they are uh they're willing to give
556:  #1 Oh yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Their talent to #
556:  And they're very religious people. Very religious. Uh. They are {X} preachers. In fact, one of the best mechanics in town works at the Chevrolet place down here, and when he went to work, he says, "I'll have to have Saturdays off. I can't work on Saturday, have to prepare my sermons on Saturday." So he don't work on Saturday. He spends Saturday preparing his sermon for the church the next day.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And {NW} very unrelated question here, but we talked about uh cars yesterday. When the first Fords came out, what were they known as? Uh
556:  Tin lizzies. It so happened my uncle got the first agency first Ford agency in this part of the state now. I I worked for him. And at the time we had well of course nobody knew how to drive 'em of course and we had that's the first thing we had to do was teach somebody to drive. That was my job. They had no front doors. The first one had no front doors at all. And they had carbide lights on 'em and we'd have to take some old fellow been used to driving a pair of horses and try to teach him to drive, and the funny thing we'd sell some old fellow a car, and I knew he would be hard to teach uh young fellows are easy to teach, so I'd try to tell him, "Let me teach your son. One of your boys." "Oh no, teach me how to drive this thing." Well, I'd fool with the old fellow a month or so, and he'd finally give up in disgust.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  And the young twelve or fifteen year old boy in the backseat would jump over and drive right on. How'd you learn to do that, boy? Probably been watching you for a month, and you easy. Fords were very simple to drive.
Interviewer:  Oh. Did they call 'em uh T-Models or Model?
556:  Well, they were Model T's of course and you got a tin lizzy.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  He called 'em tin lizzies.
Interviewer:  I've heard uh that many people refer to them as T-Models.
556:  They were Model-T. That was a Model-T.
Interviewer:  Yeah, cause I wonder why they they say T-Model rather than Model-T. Did did they say that in this area, or
556:  Both ways.
Interviewer:  Both ways?
556:  Yeah, the colored folks all called 'em T's.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  A T-Models and course the next one was a Model A.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But my uncle had this forty-inch there for years, and when we first started to sell 'em, they the uh philosophy was if you wasn't able to pay for a car, you had no business with one, see? And so That kind of limited to the sales but finally got such a big pressure for deferred payments that um he said, "Alright, we'll do this. You pay a half of this car down as spot cash exactly half then we'll make equal notes for the balance, and the first note you miss, now you bring in the car." And we never had to repossess a car.
Interviewer:  That alright.
556:  So that went on for a good many years, and finally this trade-in business started. But he refused the trade-ins. Said, "No, I'm not gonna take that old junk car. Or do anything with it." And that caused a source of trouble but he didn't ha- between him and the Ford motor company. They want him to trade, and he wouldn't trade, so he made his {X} So he said, "Well, you just take these I'm not trading for these. These old bricks and he never did.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That's where most automobile dealers lose his shirts, you know, in these trade-ins and
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  He never would trade.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  And they got down to where one they sold for three-hundred and sixty-four dollars apiece here in Macon. Less than the air conditioning on a Ford costs now.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And those were the uh the T or the A?
556:  The Model Ts.
Interviewer:  The T.
556:  See, when when they discontinued the Model T {NS} there were eighteen months till the Ford motor company was out of production. They had no cars at all. And that's when Chevrolet caught on. In the meantime, I went to work for the Chevrolet dealer when they when Mark was sold out. And Chevrolets were one popular car then. And the my old uh Ford ninety wasn't much a car. They came out with a model called Superior K. And we had plenty of 'em, and they couldn't get a Ford. And uh they'd go uh, "Well, I don't want this car, but I can't get a Ford. I'll take it." And they found it was a good car.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  And Ford is the very man who gave Chevrolet the leg-up. {NS} If Ford had never been out of production, Chevrolet never would have gone as far as they did.
Interviewer:  Why did he go out of production?
556:  Had to change models.
Interviewer:  In eighteen months?
556:  In eighteen months to change over and it had all new machinery, everything had to be built from the ground up, see? And it's quite a deal rate take the day when you change models. It's quite a
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But just think, been making Model Ts after twenty years and had to scrap every bit of the machinery had see and start all over on a new model. On this Model A.
Interviewer:  Say, and Chevrolet just happened to be there.
556:  Chevrolet was right there. We had a showroom full of cars and get plenty cars and {NS} that's exactly what gives Chevrolet they gave Chevrolet that popularity. The fact that they couldn't get a Ford. I don't know because I was right there a man come in and say, "Well, I don't want one of these things, but I I got to have a car. I can't get a Ford, so I'll try it. I don't want to, but I'll try it." And it turned out it was a good car.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  So that's the way Chevrolet got started.
Interviewer:  Well, it's very interesting. I'd like to ask you a series of questions on uh on how people express themselves. Uh, the up to this time we uh have been asking questions you know, what are your name, what do you call this, and what do you call that. Uh this {NS}
556:  Now, uh my wife's sick. Sick as in the bed {NS}
Interviewer:  Very uh sorry to hear it uh
556:  Bring it I'm bringing her some medicine. {NS}
Interviewer:  Uh what I'm interested in trying uh to do with you uh is this you you have a really excellent ear for language, and you your imitations are uh are uh are really very good, and I was wondering is is since you've had this experience uh with so much experience working with people, if you would try uh to give uh try to recapture just the way that people used to speak uh if you if say a farmer came into buy a car or he came into the post office with a complaint or uh however you used to deal with people you but not on a formal basis and not always with educated people, and if you could uh try to recapture that kind of expression uh that's what it's extremely difficult to try to uh to find those things, and I'd like to try it with you uh. For example, if you were pointing out something uh that's sort of surprising, uh uh nearby you'd say, "Well, I just just" what? I just look. And you'd say well just look here or.
556:  Well, uh course I was automobile salesman a long time before I went in the post office. And I think I just about communicated every type of person in the county.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Blacks, Indians. Uneducated white people, educated whites. Practically all types.
Interviewer:  And and what what I'm interested in is how you would adjust or your speech you know to talk to some, say uneducated white uh, or excuse me uneducated white uh who who came in and you had to convince him uh of something Uh if if you pointed out something to him, for example, uh how would you say uh well now just just look Look here, or?
556:  Well, I had an old farmer come in once and the uneducated old fellow told me that the hind end of his car was torn up. He meant the rear end, of course. The differential. Told me the hind end was torn up. And wanted to know what it'd cost to fix it. I said, "Well uh depending on what's broken back there, we just repla-." "Well, I want you to tell me first just what this is gonna cost." I said, "We can't tell you until we take it down and see what we need. You may need a rain gear, a {D: pinon}. We don't know what you need." "Well, I don't like to do things unless I know what it's going to cost me," he said. In fact, I don't know what it's going to cost me, I don't want to go into it. I said, "Well, we can't tell you now until I don't know, it may be." "Well, what you think it would be?" I said, "Well, it could be fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, or maybe fifty dollars." "My god almighty," he said. "Fifty dollars?" I I I said, "Well, I'm just guessing. I don't know. I can't tell you." "Well, I hate to go on anything like that unless I unless I know what it's going to cost me." Well, let us take it down and see, and if you don't want to pay it, you don't have to do it. "Well, it won't run without it, will it?" I said, "No, it won't run unless we fix it." "Well, I don't know what to do. I I I ain't got no much money, but I I don't know." And he stuttered and stammered around here awhile Finally he said "Alright, tear it down. Lets see what it's going to cost." So we tore it down, and it didn't cost him terribly much. I think around twenty dollars to fix it. Ford parts were very cheap, you know, in those days, and the mechanics were only a dollar an hour. So he said, "Alright, go on and fix it. Damn it." And we're we were able to see, so we fixed his car, and he went away happy. That hind end though he'd call it.
Interviewer:  And of the horse uh Hind end of a car
556:  {NW} Hind end, he called it.
Interviewer:  If uh he said damn it uh what would a woman likely say in a in the same kind of
556:  Well, now back in those days, that was a long time ago. Women didn't use those expressions. They do now, but they didn't then. It was considered
Interviewer:  What what would she say instead uh
556:  Well, she might say my lands or oh lord or something like that, now.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Goodness gracious uh Similar expressions, but they didn't They didn't use. They thought it was very scary to use language like that. Of course, now they don't make a difference.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  But back in those days, they didn't. I remember the first woman they saw on the street smoking a cigarette. Why, they just thought it was horrible. A woman smoking a cigarette right out in public. Everybody could see her. They just thought that was terrible.
Interviewer:  She was pretty uh
556:  Oh she was far but
Interviewer:  Pretty loose
556:  Yeah a loose woman. Smoking a cigarette in public.
Interviewer:  I think uh you told me about uh common. Would she be known then as as uh common woman uh if she smoked in public?
556:  Well, they could would consider her very much lower in the social scale. I don't know about being common, but
Interviewer:  What would they mean if they said common? Would that be a good thing then, or?
556:  No, that would be kind of a common common people they were considered as I told you yesterday, the current expression was poor white trash.
Interviewer:  Uh. {NS} Uh there wasn't anything about the morality or
556:  Oh no. Nothing derogatory at all in that way. No, they didn't mean that at all. They just uh
Interviewer:  Common folks.
556:  Common folks. Take these Mennonites, now. They they don't believe in education. They uh eighth grade is that's all you should know. That's plenty. So they cut 'em off at the eighth grade. They don't believe in higher education, although I don't no I don't know of any that are that are have gone to college. But they don't they don't believe in going above the eighth grade I believe here.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And they would be thought of as uh pretty common, then uh in that sense?
556:  Well, not necessarily, but still they people don't understand that why they don't want more education, and
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But they have their own rules and rights and regulations. Course, that's the way they want it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. I'd like to some other questions on just uh how people would express themselves in conversation. What was an old farmer couldn't hear what you said? How would he?
556:  He'd say, "Heh?"
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Put his hands and says, "heh?"
Interviewer:  All
556:  "Heh?"
Interviewer:  He said, "I I'm you have to speak up cause I'm kind of
556:  I'm deaf.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  He called it deaf. And you know that was an Old English word, Old English expression that was perfectly proper at one time to say, "deaf." People up in the mountains in Tennessee still use it.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  They say, "deaf." They say {X} Shoes and socks. Shoes and stocking.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Old English.
Interviewer:  By the way, how about uh different ways to say eat. Uh how about to when they wanna say, "Yesterday, I. Today I eat, but yesterday I
556:  Yesterday, not yesterday. Yesterday. Yesterday, I ate dinner at one o'clock.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And uh they had a sign here in a nigger cafe, said, "If you ain't got no money, you don't eat." {NW} If you ain't got no money, you don't eat. {NW}
Interviewer:  Well, that's uh those are the very expressions that we're interested in collecting.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh, how about uh somebody'd uh who died in an in an accident, and you'd say, "Well, don't don't uh don't bother calling a doctor. He he already
556:  Well, the current expression is, "He's passed."
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  They never say, "passed away." They say, "He's passed." In other words, "He's dead." My uh daughter's a sociologist down in New Orleans, and And she had uh a letter from a a very literate uh they had a colored colored minister who died. And she wrote to wrote to him, and she got a letter from his wife who was a college graduate, and says the reverend has passed some time ago.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  And now that was a literate nigger who wrote that letter. Said the reverend has passed. Instead of passed away or died, she said in fact, she showed it to me and said, "Look at that." But she still can't get away from {X} I had a colored there was a colored a colored preacher here. Did I tell you about it yesterday? Named Moody.
Interviewer:  #1 No. #
556:  #2 Was a graduate of Cornell. #
Interviewer:  No.
556:  He's a member of the he was a colored pastor in the Baptist and he was a well-thought of. He was a prominent and was a good man. As black as tar, but he was a very good man, and he was highly educated. He was a graduate of Cornell University. And it we used to talk. He told me one day, he says, "You know, I'm supposed to be an educated negro. I'm a graduate of Cornell. But they have never taught me not to believe in ghosts and haints and spirits." Says, "Right the day I wouldn't pass a graveyard at twelve o'clock at night by myself for nothing." Now he said, "Now, I'm educated," but said, "just but I's just uh I just got it in me. I can't help it. Sometimes I just hand it down." Says, "I'm still afraid of ghosts." Said, "I know there's no such thing, but that don't make a difference."
Interviewer:  Feels it
556:  I'm afraid uh I had a letter from the University of Maryland not long ago. Professor was writing a book on colored people, and he says, "The white planters instill the fear of ghosts and spirits into their slaves to keep them from running away." He says, "Will you elaborate on this for me?" I wrote him back, I said, "I won't elaborate because there's no such thing no matter what the truth in it." I says, "These niggers brought those superstitions over here from Africa as slaves." And I say, "They still believe in it right today."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  For instance, fellow was telling me about they had an open grave out here and he walked in and fell into it one night. Well, this is a true story now he told it. Fell into it and tried to get out and couldn't. And so he just said, "Well, I'll just have to spend the night." {D: He backed up yet early 'em just leaned back and he did a nigger felt the other end of it.} And this fellow saw him trying to get out, he said, "You'll never get out of here." Said, "But he did." Says he did get out. {NW} He said it scared him to death, but he got out.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  And he couldn't get out, and says when he saw when he said it dark as pitch, you know.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  Said, "You'll never get out of here."
Interviewer:  #1 That uh that reminds me #
556:  #2 But uh the #
Interviewer:  Did you do you have you heard any ghost stories uh uh people who have seen ghosts? Uh and who have associated smells and things with uh with the ghosts. Have you ever heard, for example that if you see a hand or there's a uh there's a smell of a ghost around uh
556:  No, I hadn't heard that. I know we had an old cook once. I saw her take the lid off the stove and put some salt in it right quick. But I said, "What'd you do that for?" Said, "Do you hear that jaybird out there?" I said, "Yeah, I heard him. What about it?" Said, "Every time you hear a jaybird out the kitchen window, you'd better put some salt in that stove or something going to happen to you." Said, "You know, they all take sand to the devil on Friday." I said, "No I didn't know that." Said, "You'll never see a jaybird on Fridays cause they ta- take sand to the devil on Friday." But she said, "If you heard a jaybird holler outside, you better put salt in the stove." Says uh it's bad luck not to. And I didn't know what she was doing. I saw her loosen the lid off and put salt in there.
Interviewer:  Uh. You mentioned uh if you don't have any money, you don't eat.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Now, how about uh somebody who uh has as I started to say, might've been injured and died at the scene. Uh somebody who comes along and say well don't call a undertaker because he uh already done
556:  He done passed.
Interviewer:  Done passed or done
556:  Uh deceased. Some of 'em said ceaseded.
Interviewer:  Ceaseded.
556:  That's another word they used is ceaseded.
Interviewer:  Were they were they use this word done? Uh, in other words, at this point manage to how would uh I done worked all day?
556:  Oh yeah. Yeah done. That's quite a day. I've used that.
Interviewer:  And and I wonder how they use it. Uh, what does it mean?
556:  #1 Well, alright #
Interviewer:  #2 Instead of saying # I worked all day. I done worked.
556:  You'd ask somebody uh you'd ask to see well you want something to eat? Uh you want some dinner? He'd say, "No, I done eat."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I done eat. Uh. One of our senators was going through Mississippi once with a Northern Congressman. And they passed this little town, and he was talking about the illiterate niggers and he said all niggers speak two languages. Said I'll prove it to you the next station. And they they stopped this old nigger's leaning against the station, he stuck his head out the window and says, "Hey, old man." Said, "Wahee." This old nigger says, "Wahoo." Say, "See there? Choctaw." {NW} Said, "Wahee." They use the word war. Wahee.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Or wahoo. You see there? {X} It's Choctaw. {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh what uh what was being said there was what was being exchanged was uh who is he?
556:  When he said, "Wahee," he meant, "Where is he?"
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  War wahee.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  And wahoo. {NW} Wahee.
Interviewer:  And if one If somebody were to say uh well people think that uh so-and-so uh if there's a crime committed, people think that so-and-so what uh he
556:  They'd say, "I suppose so-and-so done it."
Interviewer:  Done it?
556:  I suppose. They use the word suppose a lot.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  #1 Instead of suppose it's suppose. I suppose he done it. #
Interviewer:  #2 And somebody might shake his head and say uh # What uh what make what make him or makes him do it? Or how would they say that uh
556:  Different ways of expressing it uh Why he done it uh. What for he done it. Things like that. What for he done it or why he done it. I I've often wondered what some of these illiter- the very illiter- the average illiterate nigger only has about a vocabulary of two-hundred-and-fifty words. And they get by with it. And I've often wondered what an educated Englishman could do when he got out in the country and tried to talk to one of 'em. He couldn't understand a word he's saying.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Um.
556:  Like these French down in Louisiana. I wonder what a Parisian would do if he get down there. And you those those colored people don't speak English. I know down there one day somebody asked this old nigger, met him down in the wood country and asked him a direction. He said, "No speak the English." That's all he knew. He spoke French, but oh boy. What French.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I've just often wondered if a educated Parisian was deciding to drop down in that country and tried to talk to one of 'em.
Interviewer:  Would he be lost?
556:  That's terrible French they used, but
Interviewer:  Uh how about uh different ways of saying yes and no and adding sir and ma'am and
556:  Yes sir. No sir. Yes sir.
Interviewer:  Uh. And uh how about the uneducated white uh how would he indicate uh as a matter of fact this whole business of using sir. Um, either by whites or blacks. But especially in whites where uh is that a mark of uh
556:  It's just a mark of respect. That's all. You see, I was in the Navy and we never addressed my officer, you know. If you were in the Army, you always said sir. It's just a mark of respect, that's all. It's uh not a subservient attitude at all. It's just a mark of respect when you
Interviewer:  Do you withhold it from somebody uh that you don't respect?
556:  {NW} That's a rather hard question I
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I suppose it is done. Yes sir. But it's it's merely a mark of respect. Not necessarily, uh as I said, subservient attitude. It's just a It's just a polite way of talking to a man. You if you Like General Lee once was going down the street in Richmond and after the war, and this old nigger tipped his hat to him. General Lee tipped his hat back to him. He said, "I can't let an illiterate old nigger be more polite than I am." It's just a it's just it not only a mark of respect, but of politeness. If you want to be polite and nice, you you say sir.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And it's but now the illiterate would say no sir, yes sir.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  No sir. Yes sir.
Interviewer:  But now is that the black man uh #1 Could you imitate an uneducated white man? #
556:  #2 Well that's blacks I'll tell you # A lot of these whites have lived and worked on these plantations with niggers so long, that they have just about adopted the nigger terminology. Because that's all they talked to, see? And to make 'em understand, they get down and talk just like they do. Because if you use different type, they wouldn't understand you. So you take a lot of these um Foremen and uh On on farms on plantations, these big plantations. They they deal with 'em all day and talk to 'em all the time and and you they just I know one man who can't who couldn't tell and I know he's an educated man. But he's got and he's talked with 'em so long and worked with 'em so long, he sounds exactly like one of 'em. Just exactly.
Interviewer:  Well he if that's the only way he could communicate.
556:  That's right. To communicate, you gotta get down and speak their language.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And I can do it, too, fairly well. I was raised with 'em.
Interviewer:  Oh that's that's really what I'm very much interested in. It is so hard to find and record those things that
556:  Well, as I say, the average illiterate, and they're getting scarce now, by the way,
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  has a vocabulary of not over two-hundred, two-hundred-and-fifty words, and some of those words unless you know you wouldn't understand like a foreign language.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. What um if you ask uh some argue are you going someplace uh next week and he doesn't say yes or no. He wants to say, well maybe uh how would he say that? "Well, I
556:  Well, I don't know I expect I will, I expect I won't. I don't know. I might, maybe.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Expect so.
Interviewer:  Would uh how did they uh how was reckon used? I reckon so.
556:  I reckon so. That's a very popular word. That means I guess.
Interviewer:  And it was reckoned, uh the negro might say expect, but the
556:  I say I reckon so. Reckon.
Interviewer:  So. Mm-hmm.
556:  First {NS} when I went to school up in New York {X} New York met a boy there from Texas, and he's use that word reckon and this fellow just died. Did, "What did you say?" He said says he didn't know what the word was. He'd never heard it before.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  You say, "I reckon." What do you mean, you reckon? He's aw, he said, "I think so. I'll put it where you can understand. I think I'll go."
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  He was talking to me when he said, "I reckon so," cause I knew what it meant.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. That's still used, isn't it?
556:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  What?
556:  #1 Quite common. #
Interviewer:  #2 And not neccesarily by lower classes? #
556:  Used by everybody.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But as I say, we See, this county we outnumber now there's five niggers to one white in this county. And is has been as high as ten to one. And associating with 'em all the time and talking to 'em and working with 'em and working with and they're working for you. They picked the so just picked educated whites. They just picked that stuff up and You would hear a PhD using that talking that way, and now you know they know better but it's just uh
Interviewer:  Well, that's what's reported.
556:  They just have solved it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I know I do.
Interviewer:  And I think people do that uh and have to do it deliberately or they they don't belong in the community. They have to or to adapt uh the #1 Speech {X} #
556:  #2 Well it's you have to do it # to make 'em understand and that's the thing they you have to
Interviewer:  And if uh you were say selling a car, even to an uneducated white, wouldn't you have to uh use his language?
556:  Get right down there with him. I sold an old nigger a car here. A second-hand car. And he said now I'm gonna bring my son in tomorrow, and you teach him how to drive. So he came in the next day and I got the boy on the front seat by him, and he was on the backseat. And I said look boy. Now I'm a show you how to start this car. When he I said that, that old nigger jumped straight up said wait a minute, wait a minute. Said you got that thing backwards. Say show that nigger how to stop that car first. Said you got it backwards. {NW} {X}
Interviewer:  He probably felt like a prisoner in the backseat.
556:  Yes, said you got that thing backwards boy. You show that you show that nigger how to stop that car first. {NW} Out down here in the country, uh a couple of years ago and a man owned a plantation down here, and he was out of he was gone. And one of his colored hands came up to the store and asked his brother said I don't know exactly how to do so-and-so down here, so I Tell me what to do about it. He said do you know how to d- how you would do it? Yes sir, I know exactly how I would do it. He said well you do it just sit just backwards from that and you'll have it right. {NW} I'll never forget that. She said of course I do it wrong every time.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Said you do it just as he said the word backwards. You just do it backwards from that and you'll have it right. In other words, just the opposite, he meant. Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  How bout the uh use of be how you well I
556:  Well Uh first thing they'll say is how you doing today. I'm okay I guess. Well, how all the folks? Oh, they well. Except so-and-so, she she's kind of polar today, but rest of 'em get along pretty well I guess uh
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But so-and-so, she's polar today. But I the doctor with her last week, and she she come out alright I expect.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Do they do they say uh I uh I be pretty good? Does that sound right or no?
556:  Well, no. They say I'm doing pretty fair, I guess.
Interviewer:  Uh and the they use the word be and I be pretty good or not?
556:  No. No, I that's used in some sections, but that's not that uh
Interviewer:  And if you say uh {NS}
556:  I remember one time all the colored people's cabins was live or were out behind our house and they set the night jars out to air during the I was walking I was I couldn't have been over eight or ten years old, and I threw a rock at one and hit it and broke it all to pieces. {NW} The old woman got very indignant. She went to my dad and told him and said said, "Your son broke my thunder jug." {NW} And said, "I I be scared to go out at night," and said, "I have to have one," and she said, "You're gonna have to find me a new one." And I remember you never said I be scared to go out at night and said
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  I just gonna have to have a new one.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. By the way, what would she say that she did uh to the thunder jugs, she you picked up a rock and you what?
556:  She said I throwed a rock at it.
Interviewer:  Throwed.
556:  #1 Said I throwed a rock at it, I say. #
Interviewer:  #2 {D: said a chunk} #
556:  No, she said a rock. It was a rock. It was a brick a a piece of
Interviewer:  You ever use chunky chunked a rock at
556:  Oh yeah, chunk is great. Chunk that.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Oh yeah, that's quite a word. Chunked it.
Interviewer:  And that means that means throw or
556:  I never forget when I broke it. Remember the day I broke that thunder jug. {NW} Oh boy.
Interviewer:  Uh. If uh somebody says uh your fence needs uh fixing uh uh when you gonna do it? And and once you say well I'm thinking about it now I may do it uh next week. How would he say that? What's uh um I'm I'm uh fixing to do it or?
556:  Yeah, he'd say well I I'll get your fence fixed sometime. I'm fixing to I'm getting ready right now and I'm I'll have it fixed for you about this time next week, we say.
Interviewer:  Do do people uh say I'm fixing to do it?
556:  Oh yeah. I'm fixing to do this and I'm fixing to do that. In fact, I heard a preacher said in one of his sermons not long ago said he was fixing to go to the convention. {NW} A preacher with a PhD degree.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Said he was fixing to get ready his He's fixing to go to the convention.
Interviewer:  Well, it's uh it's interesting these words uh um survive. Uh I I hope myself I hope they do because it's it makes uh the language rich and and varied and interesting. How bout uh do people uh add and if they were talking about singing at church uh they were singing. Would they say I's singing? A-laughing, a-dancing while they were dancing. Does that sound alright?
556:  That sound alright. Yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Alright.
Interviewer:  And uh if they say uh well if you need money, I'll give you some. And they say, no, I don't wanna be what to anybody?
556:  Will no be beholden.
Interviewer:  To anybody.
556:  The word is beholden.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  Yeah, a lot of 'em. I don't wanna be beholden to nobody.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  In other words, I don't want to be any obligations. For instance, you'd pick up you go out in the country and you pick up some journalists and poor white They give you a ride? Yeah, they gave me a ride maybe a mile or two down the road. He gets out of the car, and he'll invariably say, "What do I owe you?" Don't owe me anything. Glad to take you. Alright. I asked a fellow not long ago I said what why do they say that? He said well, I'll tell you why they say it. They don't want to be under any obligations to you. He's offered to pay it, you've refused it, so that that clears it. He don't owe you a dime. You don't want to be beholden to, you see? But they'll always push that they probably hadn't got a nickel. Say what do I owe you? Nothing. Glad to have you or glad to ride. Alright.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And he's under no further obligations. He offered to pay you. You refused it. So he's home free.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And that's why they do it. Now, I had never thought of it in just that light, but that's exactly why they do it.
Interviewer:  And say, uh it's kind of a courtesy uh.
556:  That's right. He offered to pay you. {NW} And you refused it.
Interviewer:  So he's not beholden uh how about somebody saying now I've forgotten about that but I now but now I now I recollect, remember, mind
556:  Well now the older people use that word recollect a whole lot. I was down here at the courthouse one day, and there was a big tree's uh growing this old man was looking says, "You know, I recollect the day those trees was planted." I recollect. That was a That was used quite frequently by the older people.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  {X}
Interviewer:  What's the reverse? Now I don't uh
556:  I forgets.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  I forgets that I forgets.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh the road uh as it's under repairs, so we can't go through there. The road's all
556:  All tore up, and they working on the road.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  The road all tore up.
Interviewer:  And if um if you give uh a poor man gives his wife a necklace say or some beads, and for his her birthday and and he'll say well now don't just look at them. What put
556:  Put 'em on. Wear 'em.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh the opposite of that is the uh the opposite uh if if a child says now don't lose them. Before you go out, you better take
556:  You mean to take care of 'em?
Interviewer:  Uh-huh or you you you better their beads little girl she's home before you go out to play, you better
556:  Put 'em up.
Interviewer:  Put 'em up?
556:  Put 'em up.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  In other words, put 'em in a safe place.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Put 'em up.
Interviewer:  If something belongs to me uh in conversation uh you'd say well that's that's
556:  That's mine. Belongs to me.
Interviewer:  Alright and if it belongs to you, it's
556:  It don't belong to me.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Or how bout this or you say this is mine. It's
556:  Yours.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And if it belongs to both of us?
556:  Ours.
Interviewer:  And uh to to them it's not ours it's
556:  Another thing some of the older people used is uh I I've heard it way out in the country. We-uns and you-uns.
Interviewer:  I was wondering about that.
556:  You don't hear that much now, but I used to it used to be quite often that's another from the Old English we-uns and you-uns, but I used to hear it a {X} the farther out in the country you get way out. But uh I know I went out there one day hunting A couple of us did, and we stopped at this little house, and the woman asked us have you-uns had dinner?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
556:  Or you-uns and we-uns. You don't get that much now.
Interviewer:  That reminds me uh uh would you explain now how uh this uh how the expression y'all used to be used and how it is used now?
556:  Who, what, y'all?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Well uh, it's a funny thing. Lot of people think when we use it well we still use it Y'all should But you never refer to one person. Now they think uh so many people think when you say y'all, I heard 'em People who didn't know any better. That means a group. It's used in the Bible many times.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  In it many times. You all.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  I've got a list of the quotations from the Bible. Where that word you all is used. It means a group. It don't mean one person. It never has.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  For instance, you may be talking to one person, but they're but they're referring to one or more people uh more people than one. A group.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And this usually this is very common in the South. Everywhere today. But then it's never to one person because that's the plural.
Interviewer:  And there's no uh No prejudice against it there here, is there uh?
556:  Mm-mm.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  If it was, half the people would {NW}
Interviewer:  The reason I ask, is I was interviewing a very elegant lady and she was the uh most elegant lady in town in Northern Mississippi and uh she said, "Well, we never say that," uh. She says only country people say that.
556:  What, you all?
Interviewer:  Y'all. And just at that moment, her sister came in and says, "Y'all still taping?"
556:  {NW} There you are. They may d- they may do it unconsciously, but you all is always is a group. For instance, Well all we are. My brother and his wife were here a few Sundays ago, and my wife I know she told 'em, "Y'all come back to see us."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But she meant both of 'em. She didn't mean one of 'em.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh would you use all in combination with uh who if somebody uh if you went to a party and came back and your wife uh might say
556:  Who all was there?
Interviewer:  Who all was there?
556:  Right.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Who all was there?
Interviewer:  And uh if you talked to somebody for a long time, she might say well what uh did he say? Would you say, "Well, what did he say?"
556:  Quite frequently that's used. "What all did he say?"
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And how about this word right smart? Would you explain how that's
556:  Yeah, right smart. Yes. {NW} That's that's used quite frequently, right smart.
Interviewer:  Would you give me some examples uh
556:  Well uh it generally means quantity. You'd say uh, "How many strawberries did you raise?" You say, "Well, I raised a right smart of 'em."
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  It generally it refers to quantity. A right smart, a right It means quantity, see? Like you you raise a right I got a right smart right smart number eggs today or raise a right smart the crop of potatoes or strawberries or whatnot. It's used in that in that sense of quantity.
Interviewer:  Would you does this sound right to you? Over in the delta, an old man said that his daddy had a right smart of Indian in him.
556:  Yeah. Quantity.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  That's perfectly alright.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  A right smart of Indian blood you'd say.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  A right smart of white blood. A right smart of yeah that's alright.
Interviewer:  And uh uh how about uh that somebody somebody would say if nobody else uh will look after him, you're gonna have to look after uh how would how would that be said? Nobody's going to look after them. They're going to look after
556:  Have to look out for themselves or shift for themselves.
Interviewer:  Selves.
556:  Yeah, look out for themselves.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And if he wants it done right, he better do it. He wants it done right, he better do it him. Himself, his self.
556:  Yep. That's right.
Interviewer:  Well how how does that come out it
556:  If you want it done right, you better do it yourself.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Uh, something like that.
Interviewer:  And how bout uh his or him? His self?
556:  His self is used quite often to himself. They know better, but they'll say it.
Interviewer:  Well, actually I I don't think in conversation there are right forms. It's just a matter of what people actually say, you know. It's uh yeah I've seen uh many regions
556:  Well, I as I say the the the speech or the of the educated people here has been so diluted with the negro idiom that it's pretty sad. I know every time I go off I go to all these conventions and trips all over the country. I been all over the United States, and my wife will always warn me now, "Remember where you are." You forget this stuff that you use at home. Cause you remember they won't know what you. She always warns me.
Interviewer:  Alright.
556:  "Remember now don't say so-and-so. Don't say this, that, and the other."
Interviewer:  But you know actually in in the communities in New England where there aren't many blacks at all, never have been Uh there are some fascinating expressions, which may actually have their roots way back in England ago. They just carried over.
556:  But you take this word ain't cause everybody knows that that's not correct. I told you about the paper yesterday {X} {D: said well give me a thousand dollars to inquire to the word ain't} but of course you know it's not correct, but they just get into the vernacular and use it. No one is wrong, but
Interviewer:  By the way, I was that a commercial appeal?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  I looked for it.
556:  Well, it was in there. It was in Sure it was commercial. Uh, the full is the list of the full appropriately in May to delve into {X} absolutely senseless.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. I uh I have looked for it, but I guess Well, it was
556:  At least in my edition uh Well, I I it was either yesterday's or the day before because I just read it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Twenty-three thousand dollars to
Interviewer:  investigate
556:  That's why children fall off of tricycles
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  And the and they came up with the fact they need the tricycles turned over and ran into something some inanimate object.
Interviewer:  Um.
556:  I tell him any mother could have told him that. Uh it's
Interviewer:  Uh same thing as during a certain time. Say uh bats uh don't fly in the sun. They fly only
556:  They don't fly during the daytime. They flies at night.
Interviewer:  Night? Uh
556:  In during the day.
Interviewer:  During the day?
556:  In during.
Interviewer:  And you can find a if you look around for something and and uh say, "Well, I just can't find anything quite {X}." You say, "Well, sure you can. You can find something like that any." You say anywheres or anyplace or?
556:  Most anywhere.
Interviewer:  Most anywhere.
556:  Had it most anywhere.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh how about uh almost midnight, by midnight?
556:  Near about
Interviewer:  Near about midnight?
556:  Near about.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Yeah, near about midnight.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh and if you uh if you say now I'm not going to do that and your friend says, well, if you're not, then what?
556:  Then who is?
Interviewer:  Pardon?
556:  Who is?
Interviewer:  Who is? Do they say neither or neither? You if you're not gonna do it
556:  {NW} Neither. And neither am I and this and that and you never used the word neither.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Either, either. Neither, neither. It's either.
Interviewer:  By the way, that's not everything I wanted to ask you but I've heard colored people say neither and but is that an affectation or
556:  Probably is. In fact, if a white use it, it's an affectation.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Now how bout the uh negro you used the word or I should ask you this um how would the negro refer to his mother's sister?
556:  That's his that's his auntie.
Interviewer:  And that's his aunt and not aunt.
556:  No, auntie.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Auntie. Nah, I've never heard the word aunt used, by anyone.
Interviewer:  Never heard
556:  Just like you heard some white say uh Half That's affectation.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Half a pound.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh how bout uh sure? How does that you
556:  Sure.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  The word is sure.
Interviewer:  Sure and and uh
556:  Sure, sure.
Interviewer:  Uh, how is that used? Does that intensify something?
556:  Yeah, if anybody say uh you gonna do something? So sure, sure I'm gonna do it. Sure.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And by the way, We had a friend. He up and married a girl from Montana and she was the very precise talking girl. I heard her use that very expression not long ago. Somebody says, "Are you coming to the club meeting," and I said, "I sure am."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Now that girl had never heard that word {X} says, "I sure am." I thought that was very
Interviewer:  How bout uh combining uh sure with enough.
556:  Sure enough. Sure. Perfectly proper.
Interviewer:  And what is uh in what context is it used?
556:  Uh well you'd say uh Are you sure you're going to the party tonight? Said, "Sure enough I'm going." Sure nuff. N-U-double F. Sure nuff.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Sure enough I'm gonna do it. Like I said, you sure enough gonna do so-and-so? Sure I am.
Interviewer:  I um it reminds me uh uh of another lady I interviewed um {X} in town who's in her eighties, and her husband been dead for well, I asked her these questions, and she there's another lady who said well that's lower-class. Country people say, "Sure enough." But uh I went out and then after the interview, we were talking and her husband, been dead for twenty years, he really did bear a very strong resemblance to my father and I said, "And you know your husband looks just like my father," and she says. "Sure enough."
556:  Mm.
Interviewer:  And and uh that's why I wish that these interviews could be conducted the way I'm talking to you, you know? I would like to have a real feeling for the language that
556:  Well, that's a very common expression. Sure enough.
Interviewer:  There's no {X}
556:  But it as I said, the reason for all of this is that we've associated with the colored so long, and and worked with 'em and talked to 'em and businesses and stores and working with 'em. It just rubbed off on 'em. That's all. Like I told you about Doctor Cook. President with a string of degrees behind his name that long. Said he was born up in the prayers. Said, "Now that's now I'm not making a grammatical error." Says, "That's what the niggers called it, and that's what I was raised to calling it. The prayers." That's this section through here, see? The prairies. Said it's not he said, "It's not prairies. Prairies are out West. This is the prayers."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I heard him say that.
Interviewer:  I think it's a healthy attitude uh to kind of preserve these differences and
556:  Well, sure it's
Interviewer:  How bout uh uh some way of saying cold or good and intensifying? It's do you say real cold or?
556:  Sure nuff cold.
Interviewer:  Nuff cold.
556:  Yeah, sure nuff hot.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Sure nuff.
Interviewer:  Is real or really used very much uh
556:  Well, uh yeah it's it's used uh a good deal. Real.
Interviewer:  In in what context?
556:  Well, I had a lady down at the museum the other day, and I was showing her some different things and now this article here is a hundred years old , and she said, "Really?" Look like It seemed like every other word she said was really. "Really, you really, that real, uh really?" She kept using that word really she was a dozen times.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh how bout the uh use of something, nothing. If you give me sentences for
556:  Well, He'll never amount to nothing. {NW} How's that?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  He'll never amount to nothing.
Interviewer:  And uh
556:  He'll be something some day.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Keep on going like he's going, he'll be something some of these days.
Interviewer:  And uh you how bout catching fish? Do you catch any know what
556:  What is that, now?
Interviewer:  If if you're talking you ask somebody if he caught any fish and he has such bad luck he didn't catch any, and might say you know just in conversations that no
556:  No {X} I heard a lot of them say, no it was a washout or I drew a blank or they wasn't biting or something like that.
Interviewer:  How bout nary a one?
556:  Nary one. That's that's not used very much {NW} with the white people. Uh they I've heard I heard a fellow say the other day, everyone Says I haven't got everyone. Now, what did he mean? Instead of saying nary a one, he said everyone. I haven't got everyone. Uh I hadn't heard that but once or twice. But I did hear that man say everyone.
Interviewer:  And uh with fish or with what? No but some somebody asking me to have some any
556:  I forgot it was. You got so-and-so? I got everyone. Everyone I suppose he would Hitting that, but he said everyone.
Interviewer:  That's interesting.
556:  {X} The horses ain't got everyone. Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  And uh the uh if you say well the teacher blames a little boy for something, and uh are she says did you do that and uh what did you do and uh he might say now I uh I ain't done nothing?
556:  Yeah, he could say that. I ain't done nothing. I didn't do it uh. I ain't done it. Uh he could say it. Sure.
Interviewer:  What do you think is when you were in school does that sound uh
556:  Well I guess it was used, but I don't remember using it a great deal.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh
556:  Journaling when we made a grammatical expression, the teacher would jerk us up right quick.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  If we was if we made an error. I remember one day we had an English teacher. This was a ridiculous thing. And she was a very strict-laced old English teacher. She just tried to teach perfect English. And we were going to school one day, and we had this boy he was always up to something. And she says his name was Lewellin. Lewellin All. She says, "Lewellin, have you seen greater farm?" He said, "Yes ma'am I seen him and taken after him." And of course she just liked to blow him up. He did it just for meanness. "Yes ma'am," he says. "I seem him and taken after him." Oh, she just bristled on him. Oh, it just made her so mad. It was one of her English students she
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  I'll never forget that. "Yes ma'am I seen him and taken after him."
Interviewer:  That's strong uh strong notions.
556:  Oh boy she liked to {X}
Interviewer:  Would you uh sort of create a kind of conversation that would happen if somebody came unexpectedly at uh mealtime uh how uh I mean again uh without any kind of social feeling about it uh just how people would ask them to come in and and uh
556:  Well, I've often heard this done that Well, you're getting here right at dinnertime. We ain't got much, but what we've got, you're welcome to it. We got plenty of it. Such as this is and be glad to have you come sit awhile with us and eat something with us.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  There you go. Wasn't looking for company but uh we just got what we'll eat if you was here. I mean you can eat what we can eat, so come in and eat with us. And of course there would be a bountiful table that
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  They always apologize these I used to go out and these big dinners that and the host at the table would be literally covered with anything above everything. She'd like to apologize for the sorry meal {X} That would be turkey and ham and chicken and beef and just I didn't have much today. Of course, all she was doing was fishing for compliments. Oh, I just did the best I could. I just that's uh
Interviewer:  If you want uh uh someone to start to eat right away, you say, "Well, just help
556:  Help yourself.
Interviewer:  Self.
556:  Help yourself.
Interviewer:  And you uh If you offer somebody a certain dish and he doesn't want it, how does he decline it? Says I
556:  You generally don't. You go on to take it and don't eat it. It it's uh you it's kind of a reflection on the hostess when you turn something down, see?
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  So if you don't like beets, we'll say, and they're passing the beets well You may not like beets. But it's a reflection on the hostess cooking if you don't take some of it and uh um uh Try to uh try to eat uh you don't have to necessarily eat it, but you should take it along on your plate anyhow.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. You ever say I don't like
556:  No, don't say never say, "No, I don't like beets," or, "I don't like this." No. You're gonna take a little of it and then don't eat it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Suppose uh you come for somebody and she's not quite ready, uh she'll say, "Not just
556:  Y'all set awhile. Dinner will be ready directly.
Interviewer:  Alright, or if she said, "Just just a minute uh I'll be with you just
556:  {X} He'll say, "Well, well, I'll be through in a minute. Y'all just set down now and we'll uh dinner will be ready in directly."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And then you would say
556:  #1 There's no hurry. #
Interviewer:  #2 Don't hurry I I'll wait #
556:  Take your time. We got all day. Don't make a you never get in a hurry, see?
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  No, no, we ain't in no hurry at all. Just take your time.
Interviewer:  We'll wait.
556:  We'll wait. We'll sit here and talk.
Interviewer:  Uh do you say we'll wait for you, we'll wait on you, we'll
556:  We'll wait. You go right ahead. Take your time. We're in no hurry.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Got all day. That's what you generally say. You got all day.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And if somebody comes uh for your wife and she's at the club, you say, "Well, I'm sorry. She's
556:  Just a minute. It's what they always say. "Just a minute." And course it may be thirty but still that's what they say. Just a minute.
Interviewer:  See uh. You said she's not at home or someone calls comes to the door and asks for you wife and she's not here, you say, "Well, I'm sorry, she's not
556:  She's not at home.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  What we'd say. She's not at home right now. Be back but they all want to know when she'll be back.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  So you try to estimate it. Not at home right now, but probably be back in fifteen minutes to twenty minutes or thirty minutes. Ther- Uh as the case may be.
Interviewer:  What's a standard greeting for someone grew up in Macon and comes {X}
556:  Well
Interviewer:  Well, you haven't seen for a long time. You say, "Well
556:  Well, uh that happened to me just the other day. A boy that I grew up with here I've forgotten just what I did tell him. I told him I was glad to see him. Glad you're back home again. Looking well. Course you always tell 'em how well they look.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Looking well.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Hope you'll stay. This, that, and the other. Just a few pleasantries.
Interviewer:  And and you say, "Well, when you come back again, I'll be sure
556:  Sure and drop around to see us.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Uh, we'll be glad to see you or how how would you change glad. We'll be glad to see you. How glad? Uh, we'll be
556:  Well, I don't know.
Interviewer:  Uh, there are a couple things here that I'm looking for is right glad. Does that sound right? Be right glad to see you.
556:  That or very glad.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Generally be very glad.
Interviewer:  And how is this word proud used?
556:  Proud to see you. We had a Sunday school we had a Sunday school teacher here and by the way he's got his master's degree in English from the University of Mississippi. And I ask a question at a Sunday school class one day. He said, "That's a good question. I'm proud you ask it." {NW}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Said, "Now somebody laughs, it'll be okay."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Said, "I'm proud you ask it."
Interviewer:  Are there some other word that's he's a younger man is he that
556:  #1 Yeah, yeah, he's in his forties. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Mm-hmm.
556:  And he says, "That's a good question. I'm proud you ask it."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I remember that rather happened just a short while ago.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh it's how about before uh this tape's about to run out another question coming up.
Interviewer:  We were talking about uh {NS} before {NS} you're you have a piece of furniture and you uh it doesn't fit in the house and so somebody says, "Well, don't throw it away. I'll be glad to take it." And you say, "Well, I'm glad to
556:  Glad to get rid of it. I have a letter from one of my relatives from the University of Mississippi. He's a senior at the University of Mississippi. That letter was dated in 1893, I believe. He was writing to his father down at Byram, Mississippi. Says, "I wish you'd send me six gallons of good molasses." Says, "I can get shut of it very easily." Shut. S-H-U-T.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  He meant shed of it, I guess, but there he was, an educated man saying, "I can get shut of it."
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And it's very plain. S-H-U-T.
Interviewer:  Are there words uh now it means more than just to be rid of it. He would say, "I could sell it."
556:  #1 He was gonna sell this molasses. #
Interviewer:  #2 {D: For sale} # Uh-huh.
556:  He says, "The boys up here want molasses, and I can get shut of it very easily." And with and he was an educated boy. See, University of Mississippi.
Interviewer:  Uh, do you still hear that uh very much?
556:  Very seldom now. It it was it used to be uh uh uh used a great deal more than it is now, but occasionally you'll hear it. Get shut of it. {NS}
Interviewer:  And uh. {NS} Uh uh if someone {NS} said wants to say the opposite or even he might say, "Well, we're we're glad to see you. And uh won't you stay?" but actually wants wants you to get shut of you uh, so you'd say, "Well, he acted uh he acted as if I I knew he wanted me to go, but he acted as if," what? Uh.
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  Would he say uh he didn't want him to stay, but he Uh, he made out like a
556:  Well, that's that's quite an expression. Made out or make like. Make like I know I, I heard a fellow says not long ago let's make like we gonna do so-and-so. He made like he wanted him to stay when he didn't.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And uh different ways of expressing distance uh say how far is it well say to Columbus uh how Uh, would you say And you remember any other way of saying that uh
556:  Well, they'd say, "How far?"
Interviewer:  To to uh to Columbus?
556:  Yeah, how far to Columbus?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And {NW} somebody might say, "Well, about thirty"
556:  Thirty mile
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Lot of 'em use don't use the plural, they would say mile. And I'll notice uh so many people would say anything is three foot long, four foot. Instead of four feet, they would say four foot mile or thirty mile to Columbus.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Uh. {D: High} Well that that expression is being discarded more now than it used to be because everything was either three foot deep or four foot deep.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But you don't have much of it now with the younger people. It's always three feet or four feet.
Interviewer:  And if uh you say, "Where's the church?" or "Where's the baptist church?"
556:  Where's it at? Lot of 'em put that word 'at' on the end of it, which of course is wrong, but so many people will say, "Where's it at?" {D: And about} other day, the fire whistle, fire alarm sounded down here and he run out here and says, "Where's the fire at?" {NS} I started to tell him "Right behind the at."
Interviewer:  {NS}
556:  But he wanted to know where the fire was at.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. If you say uh, "Where is the baptist church?" Well, you say, "Well, it's just over
556:  Oh, on the corner.
Interviewer:  Uh, or uh Well, by the way when when uh someone told me I asked where you lived and they say, "Well, his house is just catty-wampus to the baptist church." Now uh does this uh would you explain the difference between catty-corner
556:  #1 Well, he meant he meant #
Interviewer:  #2 and catty-wampus? #
556:  Catty-cornered. Of course, catty-cornered. Catty-wampus. {NS} Well, that that may be used a little but not much. It's generally catty-cornered across.
Interviewer:  Now what is antigodlin? {NS}
556:  Oh boy.
Interviewer:  I'll explain how I heard that.
556:  How'd you hear it?
Interviewer:  I checked to see whether this uh #1 sounds familiar. #
556:  #2 Mm-hmm. #
Interviewer:  Somebody says that uh that they used to use a roads a mule-driven road-scraper.
556:  Mm.
Interviewer:  And the blade was was antigodlin. to the road,
556:  #1 Mm-hmm. #
Interviewer:  #2 so not only uh you know like this, up and down, but on an angle like this. #
556:  #1 Mm. #
Interviewer:  #2 In other words, you could, # you could set it this way
556:  Mm.
Interviewer:  and when it
556:  Well, if you had antigodlin, you turned it slightly up. See, they used the old road-scrapers and mules usually a scraper would have handles.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  If it's antigodlin, it would turn slightly up instead of being parallel with the road. In other words, it meant diametrically opposed.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Uh just opposite. And anything antigodlin is it's uh opposed to the proper way. For instance, that scraper should be parallel with the earth, but if you wanna when you wanna aerate it you bear down on the handle and it goes up, you see?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That would be antigodlin.
Interviewer:  You you we talked yesterday about the jackleg uh carpenters. Suppose that he made a windowsill, and you looked at it and you say, "Well, look at that sill uh it looks and and it's on an angle. If it isn't square. What's the word there?
556:  That'd be a good way to express it right there. Antigodlin.
Interviewer:  That that's antigodlin?
556:  Anything that's out of proportion or out of the natural sequence, that'd be antigodlin, and it's uh opposed to the right way of doing things, in other words.
Interviewer:  Now, catty-wampus then doesn't uh
556:  {NS}
Interviewer:  You wouldn't say, "Well, he's got that all
556:  Well, he just coined the word there I've heard the word cad it it's uh means the same thing as catty-cornered.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Same thing.
Interviewer:  So that a piece of furniture would be in the corner uh would fill a corner
556:  antigodlin it. {NS} If it was put that away instead of this away. It just means opposed.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Those are interesting terms.
556:  Opposed to way the the opposed to the proper way of doing things. #1 It's that's what they mean by it. #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh. So that so that's always #
556:  #1 Yeah, off. Off-center. Right. #
Interviewer:  #2 Sort of off-center, so {X} # Uh. How about the word the use of yonder or yander? Uh.
556:  Yonder.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Way off yonder.
Interviewer:  Uh. And do you combine that in any special way with back and over?
556:  Oh yeah. Back yonder, over yonder, over yonder. Sure, yeah.
Interviewer:  Yeah, what's is that is that a long way or a short way off? Uh in other words, to talk about the church
556:  Not necessarily. We say the church is over yonder. Wouldn't necessarily mean a long way.
Interviewer:  And what else?
556:  Over yonder or back yonder, back it's maybe it's behind, it's back yonder.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  So here is over yonder.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  This away is out yonder. And different expression or you'd think the Air Force hymn in the wild blue yonder.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Uh, it means As I say, if it's back yonder is behind you, say over yonder, but out yonder is in front of you.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh, what is uh different ways of saying a little way and a long way? Uh, I'll go with ya a little way.
556:  Little ways.
Interviewer:  Or piece?
556:  Piece? Yeah, a piece of the way.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Yeah, that's used. Piece of the way. Little ways.
Interviewer:  How bout a fair piece? Uh.
556:  Fair piece. {NW}
Interviewer:  I'll go with you a
556:  I was down at the Daytona Beach and we were going on to Miami. And my cousin's wife, who said, "Where y'all going?" We said, "we going to Miami." She said, "Well, it's a fair piece down there. I'll tell you that," and of course and she's an educated college graduate, but
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That was in Daytona Beach. She said, "Well, it's a fair piece to Miami, I'll tell you that."
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  And it was. It was the long way.
Interviewer:  #1 Somebody uh #
556:  #2 That's #
Interviewer:  Uh, might walk down the sidewalk and find some ice {NW} not see it and uh you know lose his balance and might say, "Whoops, I" what?
556:  Slipped up.
Interviewer:  Uh or or I what to fell?
556:  Slipped up and fell.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh, suppose he didn't actually fall, but he he almost did. He might say, "I what to fell?" He'd say, "I like to fell there?"
556:  I'd liked to have fell.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Liked to have fallen or like, yeah that's used, liked to
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  {NW} Almost, which means all the same as almost.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And if he uh slipped and fell this way say he fell
556:  #1 Foremost. #
Interviewer:  #2 He actually got # Foremost? Alright. Or if he slipped and he went this way
556:  Back, he went backwards. #1 Backwards. #
Interviewer:  #2 Backwards. # Backwards. Uh-huh.
556:  Liked to {X} "Just do it backwards," he says.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  He fell backwards.
Interviewer:  Uh, somebody might say well Suppose you happened to have been in Jackson, and they say, "Well, I haven't seen you all week, where have you been?" You say, "Well, I was I was what?
556:  Well, it would depend on what he was doing down there. Uh, what I'm wondering is would you say, "over in Jackson" or or uh
Interviewer:  #1 Up in Knoxville or #
556:  #2 Well # I you know uh up in the New England states they say down East.
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  I've often wondered why they said down East when they it it would be up East up if it would be up to me.
Interviewer:  Alright.
556:  Of course, if we'd say going to Jackson, we'd say down to Jackson. #1 Or up to Memphis. #
Interviewer:  #2 Down to Jackson. #
556:  To over to Birmingham.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Over to Greenville, Mississippi. But uh I I've heard 'em use that expression up there. Down east some ways.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  When it was North.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Never could get that why they meant down East when they're are people in New York say they're going down East. Well, it was I was going in on a in an airport at Kennedy and the bus there were two bus drivers and they were talking. One of 'em says where are you gonna spend your vacation? Says, "I always go down East on my vacation." Says, "It's very beautiful up there in October."
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  #1 And uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Not an up. #
556:  Anyways, he was going he was going up in New Hampshire.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  #1 Now how do you figure he went down East when it was when he was. Right. #
Interviewer:  #2 Now that's a that's a wonderful example of uh of what's called idiomism. # I went down East because it's beautiful up there.
556:  He said he always went down East because he seen it was so beautiful up in New Hampshire during the fall. It was in October.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  And it was so beautiful up there in October. He always went down East #1 for his vacation. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
556:  Well, if if down would've meant coming South to me, but
Interviewer:  God, and to him apparently he was not aware of the fact that he was talking about how beautiful it was up there.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Going down.
556:  #1 But he was going down East to see it. #
Interviewer:  #2 Uh-huh. # Mm-hmm.
556:  Always went down East, he said, in October to see the beautiful scenery and the colors, these two bus drivers.
Interviewer:  If you uh see someone uh coming no let's something like that. Suppose you were up in Memphis and uh say well, I haven't seen him for a long time uh I um you might say to somebody I guess who I saw in uh in Memphis Andrew Smith and say yes I what in Memphis. I ran into him.
556:  I ran into him. I
Interviewer:  We're at a crossing.
556:  We're at a crossing. That that would be okay. I ran into him. I ran across him. I met him.
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear anybody say I ran afoul of him?
556:  Oh yeah. Yeah, that's ran afoul of him. Sure.
Interviewer:  But what does that mean? Uh. Does that mean that uh you didn't get along too well?
556:  Well, you can just say like I had a fella not long ago I ran afoul of a highway patroller man down the highway. He missed {NW} He wasn't exactly looking for him, but he ran afoul of him and stopped him and gave him a ticket.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  #1 Well, it it I mean it wasn't it wasn't such a happy meeting, but it uh you ran afoul or something like that. #
Interviewer:  #2 Too happy, huh? Mm-hmm. # And then suppose you uh eh you'd wanna say yes, I saw him on the street. He was coming
556:  Coming at me.
Interviewer:  Uh, coming at or towards.
556:  Coming at me.
Interviewer:  #1 Oh. #
556:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  And you say well, where does he he where does he live? You say well, now he lives and I'm interested again in up, down, over.
556:  Well, depend on where he lived that uh
Interviewer:  And supposed he lives with a family the Brown family. Say well, he lives
556:  Well {NW}
Interviewer:  He lives up with the Browns or
556:  #1 Over. Over at so-and-so's, depending on how #
Interviewer:  #2 Over the Browns. #
556:  the direction of where they were, I guess it would be it was uh this way, he'd live up there with the Browns or over there with the Browns or as the case may be.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh suppose you say do you know him. And he says no, I've never met him, but I've I've what?
556:  Heard of him.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh have you seen uh and you say no, I haven't or I
556:  Not lately.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Haven't seen him lately. {NW}
Interviewer:  Child is uh is about to be punished {NW} he'll beg and he'll say no, no, don't punish me. Give me another what?
556:  Another chance.
Interviewer:  And uh say well now you want to uh the door's open you want somebody to do something to it uh you say well now what the door?
556:  You mean shut the door?
Interviewer:  Door.
556:  Shut the door. Course you never hear much close the door. It's generally shut the door.
Interviewer:  I was wondering uh I was wondering and {NW} You mentioned uh your mother used to say to you when you came up to the whatnot now belt.
556:  Don't touch anything on that whatnot, now. But you can look all you want to, but don't touch.
Interviewer:  Don't touch.
556:  Don't touch.
Interviewer:  And if uh you somebody asks uh for an apple, a child you see let's say, give
556:  Give it to him.
Interviewer:  Uh, give me a apple.
556:  Give me an apple.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And then you might cry and say why are you crying? Well, he didn't, he didn't give
556:  Didn't give me the apple.
Interviewer:  Didn't give me any or any didn't give me none. Uh. If you ask somebody can he do something, would you explain different responses that you might might get? What was he he's not sure?
556:  He would say well, I don't know. Do the best I can I'll think about it or maybe.
Interviewer:  Maybe. Would uh he ever say well, suppose he talked to an older man he said do you think you think you could do it now or or your health good enough? He say well I might.
556:  Might get to it later.
Interviewer:  #1 Uh-huh. I was wondering uh might could. Do you ever hear that? Oh, I might could do that. #
556:  #2 Oh yeah. # Maybe it might could. That's used, but generally it's maybe could.
Interviewer:  #1 Maybe could. #
556:  #2 Maybe I could. #
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  And never perhaps I could.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  The word perhaps is used very very infrequently.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And the might could is what's interesting.
556:  #1 Yeah, well, that expression's used. #
Interviewer:  #2 I might could do that. #
556:  I might can do it. Yeah, sure that's used quite often.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh if an if you were to say something like this uh I I wish that you had done that uh I didn't know that you could and he would say, yes, I might
556:  Might could've done it.
Interviewer:  Might could've done.
556:  Might could've done it.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  I'm gonna make some coffee.
Interviewer:  Alright, sure uh
556:  Just give me just a minute. {NW}
Interviewer:  I haven't had any coffee this morning. {NW}
556:  Now I tried to put it back together, but it it didn't work so good.
Interviewer:  Oh yes.
556:  #1 It broke. The pieces were too tiny. Uh. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yes. Uh, that's too bad. # That's too bad.
556:  I couldn't it was too small sometimes I get things back. There's my grandfather's Bible {NS} old family Bible's dates back to 1880.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. {NS}
556:  #1 Sure. #
Interviewer:  #2 There are if I could just ask you a few more questions. I just this business of doing things uh now if he wants to be more positive, you say something more positive than might could. Can you do that, he'd say why # He he wants to be sure that you know he can and he will. How would he express that? {NS} Can you do that? You say why
556:  Why sure I can.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  #1 Sure, I can do it. #
Interviewer:  #2 Or # {NW} if he's um uh does he make a distinction between uh whether he wants to or whether he's physically able? If he wants to, he'll say well,
556:  Do the best I can.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Best I can but uh of course if he's not able, he'll some kind of excuse. Feeling kind of poorly.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  #1 That's used that's used a lot of people, poorly. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah, I I # I can do it. Uh, what does that mean? If if you ask a man uh will you do this and he said well, I I can do it.
556:  I can do it alright, when I get to it.
Interviewer:  #1 {X} to count on it. #
556:  #2 When I can # Say I can do it okay.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Or if if he turns you down, you say no I
556:  No, I can't do it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Can't do it. Either can or he can't.
Interviewer:  Uh, you avoid saying I won't. Is that right?
556:  Uh not going to refuse just say I can't get to it. Got us some work down at the legion building right now. Been asked if I would do some concrete work down there, but said I'll do it just as quick as I can get to it. Quick as I can get to it. I haven't forgot. I'll get to it sometimes. You'd say when? Oh, I don't know I'm busy I'll get to it just as quick as I can.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Just as quick as he can he'll get to it.
Interviewer:  In other words, uh he he'll never tell you
556:  No, he's not gonna #1 {D: ever say} #
Interviewer:  #2 I won't. #
556:  No, he won't refuse, but he just never gets to it.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  There's a colored painter here in town. {NS} He's been promising me he's gonna come here and paint my bathroom I know for six months. Every time I see him. I'll get to you next week.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Well, that's been going on now since uh I'd say May. And he still hasn't gotten to it. I'll get to it, though. I'll get there. You don't get me out. Don't get me out, he said. Don't get me out. I'll get to it just quick as I can.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And I say well you been saying that now for uh since May. Yes sir, but I just been so busy. I just haven't been able to get to it, but I'll get to it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  So he'll probably finally get to it, but in his own good time.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh if somebody uh gives instructions for doing something uh no, don't do it that way. Do it do it what?
556:  Uh.
Interviewer:  Uh, don't do it that way. Do it
556:  Mean in a different way?
Interviewer:  Yeah, or do it this way. Or this away.
556:  This way or that away.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  That away is {NW}
Interviewer:  That away.
556:  That away.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That away is a is quite an expression.
Interviewer:  Uh if that uh that away is wrong do it
556:  This away.
Interviewer:  This away.
556:  This away or that away.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  This away or that away is the way you want it done. It's wrong, but this away I want it done.
Interviewer:  Some uh something happens that looks like an accident. You say, no, it was no accident, he
556:  Done it on purpose.
Interviewer:  Purpose. Uh-huh. And uh how bout uh you tell a child {NW} well, let's put it this way. Suppose the crops are held back by the rain, and you say well uh, the uh corn isn't as tall as it
556:  Oughta be.
Interviewer:  Oughta be. Uh but uh suppose you say uh to a child now you didn't do that the way you
556:  Oughta have done it.
Interviewer:  Oughta have done it. Mm-hmm.
556:  They didn't do it like they ought to have done it.
Interviewer:  And how how is should uh used uh you to a child you say now you
556:  You mean the you mean when you wanna say you should've done it?
Interviewer:  Yes, uh.
556:  Well, you ought to have done it this way.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  They use the word oughta a whole lot. Oughta, you oughta have done it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And the uh opposite of ought to is No, you
556:  Like I heard I probably heard the expression she never done a thing that she hadn't oughta.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Never done anything that she hadn't oughta. In other words, that she had had not transgressed the rules of propriety, we'll say.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  She'd never done a thing that she hadn't oughta. {NS}
Interviewer:  And how would he say uh the the opposite uh he does everything that he
556:  Oughta do.
Interviewer:  Or or what how would you say the opposite? Uh. Oughten could.
556:  Ought not have done.
Interviewer:  Ought not have done. Mm-hmm.
556:  Oughta not have done.
Interviewer:  If uh if you if you see somebody who's been very sick and you say well {NW} I don't know they say he's getting along, but uh I it just seems to me that he don't ever
556:  Yeah, he's getting along poorly. He's not done good. He's poorly. He's uh something like that.
Interviewer:  It seems as as it seems to me that he seems like
556:  Ain't getting any better.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And {NW} if uh you say something like that to a to a man what what go fishing with me, and he'll say well {NW} No, I I won't go with any of he's trying to tell you he wants his uh brother to go along or friend. Says I I won't go unless
556:  Can't go myself lesson you take so-and-so with me.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Lesson you to take someone. Lesson you to do this. Unless is where he's driving at.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh you say instead of sitting around uh uh you uh you should you should help me uh. Um does that sound that you could use help you say why did you sit around uh
556:  You coulda say I coulda used you.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  Coulda used you. In other words, you coulda helped me. I coulda used you.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. You did something {NW} instead of playing uh I could've used you in the house.
556:  #1 Yeah, that's right. #
Interviewer:  #2 Could've done. # Mm-hmm. And how about uh she isn't afraid now, but uh you might say she now that she's grown, she's not afraid, but she sure, as a child, she
556:  She was a fraidy cat when she was a child.
Interviewer:  She used to be uh.
556:  Fraidy.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And the old gray mare, she ain't what
556:  Ain't what she used to be.
Interviewer:  And the opposite of used to be is uh um
556:  Uh.
Interviewer:  Now I don't understand why she's afraid now. She {NS}
556:  Wait. {NS} You don't use cream, do you?
Interviewer:  No sir. I don't.
556:  #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 Alright, thank you. #
556:  {NS} Oh you're gonna put it on tape?
Interviewer:  Oh, the
556:  {NS} Oh, you see?
Interviewer:  Ain't that right? Uh. {NW} I would have a cure for a or either kill or a cure if uh you put that down #1 down her back. That's #
556:  #2 {X} # Yeah, these fool remedies.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  I went in one's house up here one day, and I noticed on the mantle was a glass full of hooves off a hog's foot. I mean that they slipped just the hoof off. And had that glass full of those dried hooves. I wanna know what are you saving those hooves for. Said let me tell you one thing, Mr. Crigley. Said that's the best stuff in the world for pneumonia. Say if you takes pneumonia, you parch them hooves and grind them up. And put 'em in water and drink it. Said it'll cure any case of pneumonia in the world. That's what we'd say is if we had a case of pneumonia. {NW} Hog hooves.
Interviewer:  Uh. By the way, didn't as a matter of fact uh isn't that a dish uh boiling the uh the hooves and making a kind of uh
556:  Uh, you'll make a pig's foot jelly.
Interviewer:  Jelly.
556:  But that's you take the hooves off before you do that. That is a is a it would be a nail like a nail you know that slips off.
Interviewer:  #1 Oh. #
556:  #2 And they're hardened. # A nail is not to put itself, you see.
Interviewer:  #1 Well, when they were born in Houston. This they old #
556:  #2 They slipped # They slipped that they they said they grind that up and boil it and drink the water.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And I had the whooping cough. Oh, I was gosh I was grown I thought I was gonna cough myself to death, and I went down the street one day, and I One of those {X} hit me. You know. You ever had whooping cough?
Interviewer:  Yeah.
556:  #1 It's awful, especially when you're grown. #
Interviewer:  #2 It is. #
556:  And I was coughing, this old nigger came out in the summertime he had an old coat. {NW} And said wouldn't keep out the heat. It'll keep out the cold anyhow. He stopped and looked at me like he might fare the last time. He says got the whooping cough, ain't you? He say I sure have. Well, he say I tell you what'll cure it. I said well, I've tried everything else in the world. What do you say? Say backs says back in slavery time Always referred to slavery time My ma had eight children and said we all had whooping cough And says you went out in the woods and found an old hornet nest And brought it home and cut it up with a shears and boiled it in a pot of water. And gave us a gourd dip and said now drink all you can hold and says we did and we never coughed another time.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  And I came home and looked all over the country for a hornet nest. {NW}
Interviewer:  Was uh power of suggestion is pretty powerful in many of those things, don't you think? Uh.
556:  I imagine so. These old But you know they'd found that some of those old remedies have a basis of
Interviewer:  #1 Medical {X} #
556:  #2 Medical fact uh behind 'em. # And I don't know about the hornet nest or the pig knuckles but
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Or the bowls would, but {NW}
Interviewer:  Did you uh did you ever have to drink uh sassafras tea?
556:  #1 No, but I but that was quite a remedy back in my younger days out in the country. #
Interviewer:  #2 It's very uh #
556:  Lot of the old people did drink it.
Interviewer:  What what was that supposed to be for or
556:  Coughs, colds, anything. Any pulmonary troubles uh
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Supposed to. Aren't they used it for tonic too I understand. Spring tonic.
Interviewer:  Did they grow or does it does
556:  It grows wild as a thickets of it. I've just seen woods of it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That uh it grows wild.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  {X} Used for various purposes.
Interviewer:  I have just a few more of these uh to to ask you uh Suppose that uh somebody says that her neighbor hardly got the news when she came right over and then how would she she say to tell me? Uh, she hardly got the news, and she came right over {NS} Uh, would she say for for to tell me?
556:  Well, that expression not used much now. I came for to tell you so-and-so. That that is that's just about gone out, but formerly, that was used. I've heard it used. Came for to tell you so-and-so.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But that that's not used much now. I haven't heard it in a long time.
Interviewer:  Hmm. And uh if somebody does something that doesn't make much sense uh what would people
556:  Outlandish. #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Outlandish and they'd say nah now just look at that what? # Okay, what kind of word would you use for an adult who had done things that you know didn't make much sense?
556:  #1 Well, that's a good word that outlandish. That's used quite #
Interviewer:  #2 Mm. # Well, what would you call him? The person doing it. Say, I just look at that fool?
556:  Well, you could say that.
Interviewer:  Or is is that too strong? Uh.
556:  That a little too strong. Call him a idiot.
Interviewer:  #1 I see. #
556:  #2 {NW} # {NW} Idiotic.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Idiotic, say.
Interviewer:  But uh if you'd say that fool is really a really pretty strong.
556:  Yeah, that's you know a little strong.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  {NW}
Interviewer:  And uh suppose somebody smiles a lot. Ordinarily kind of grouchy, but he smiles a lot. You say well, he you're you seem to be in good what
556:  Pretty good humor.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh if how how would you uh talk about getting a an envelope ready for a letter? What I'm looking for is the different ways to use address or address
556:  Back it.
Interviewer:  Back it.
556:  They I'll back it to you. That's the illiterate expression. I've heard a many one of them come to the post office and say wish you'd back this for me to so-and-so.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  They mean address it.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  I had a nigger girl come in the office one day and ask me to back this letter to Washington, D.C. I said well you have to have some person to back it to. Who do you want to send it to? Oh, nobody special, just Washington, D.C. I said well that's just foolish. You you don't want to who would they give the letter to after it got to Washington, D.C. And she never would tell me. And she went on out. And reckon I saw her slip back in and the letter was addressed to the president of Washington, D.C. Now, she wouldn't tell me that, see?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But she got somebody to do it. She but uh It was addressed to the president of Washington, D.C.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But she wouldn't tell me that at all.
Interviewer:  Do you remember any uh any words for uh an answer I has should they might
556:  They generally say write right back.
Interviewer:  Write back.
556:  Write right back.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Um. They wouldn't write in the letter I expect a I expect a
556:  Reply?
Interviewer:  Reply.
556:  #1 Well, they'd say write me right back. #
Interviewer:  #2 Back? # Uh-huh.
556:  #1 Write me right back. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # And uh if if they back the letter, what would they say or what did most people say for the uh for the name and the street and so on itself?
556:  You mean the address?
Interviewer:  Yes, uh did it have a name?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  {X} Special or. The words back {NS} means uh the act of doing it.
556:  #1 Yeah, backing into whole thing. #
Interviewer:  #2 Back the # Mm-hmm.
556:  They'd ask you to back it for 'em. That meant the whole deal.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. {NW} I'd heard or read about that, but I never heard that uh.
556:  #1 I've heard it a thousand times. A #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  I was in the Navy once, and you re- you know Senator {X} Senator from Mississippi?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  He was in there. It was two of his nephews. {X} Jay, and they were two of the most illiterate boys I ever saw. And one of those {X} boys asked me one day to back a letter home for him. Asked me to back it he he could hardly write, but he wrote the letter. But he knew he couldn't write well enough to address it, so he asked me to back it for him.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  And that's been fifty years ago.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Back it.
Interviewer:  Well let's switch over to uh some to some other words that you use for vegetables uh I think that's what we were talking about food yesterday, and and uh how bout uh different things that people grow in their in their gardens or homes in the first place.
556:  Garden sass.
Interviewer:  Garden sass?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And that would be their {NW} their uh what kind of things?
556:  Any kind of vegetables. Anything in the garden.
Interviewer:  What would be the the more familiar ones? Just name them off.
556:  Oh, taters.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Uh, sweet?
556:  #1 Uh, yes. Uh some of the colored people say spare-a-grass instead of asparagus. Tomatoes. #
Interviewer:  #2 Asparagus? # Uh-huh. How bout uh Do the do people used to talk about uh yams or is that a more recent term?
556:  No, it was sweet po- sweet taters. Irish potatoes what they. That yams was that was never a word used. I never heard of the word till I got grown.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  They didn't call 'em yams at all. They was taters.
Interviewer:  And uh.
556:  Like those fellows say had one day I didn't raise much corn and cotton, but lord guard the taters. {NS}
Interviewer:  They never grew any rice here, did they? Or how would they use the rice? Uh In what kind of dish?
556:  Or didn't uh nothing. They used the rice and gravy. They would make a bowl of rice and then some kind of gravy or butter.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  I don't know the way they ate rice.
Interviewer:  Hmm. How bout different kinds of onions uh?
556:  Well, of course the onions now the on- the ones you buy in the store don't have a bit of authority. We used the old onions we used to raise was hearty as five. The old red onions. They were they had some authority. But these mild onions you get now don't have a taste of them at all, do they?
Interviewer:  #1 No, what what are did you have these big sweet ones? Spanish? #
556:  #2 Spanish Spanish onions. Mm-hmm. #
Interviewer:  Uh, any Bermuda onions?
556:  Yeah. {X} Had those, too. But we liked we always liked the red onions because they had uh a strong flavor to them, you know. They were
Interviewer:  I like the little green ones. Uh, what did you call those
556:  Spring onions.
Interviewer:  Spring onions.
556:  Yeah, they were I raised had a row of 'em out there in my garden this year
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That spring onions.
Interviewer:  Uh how did people say uh okra or
556:  Okra.
Interviewer:  Okra, uh-huh.
556:  Okra.
Interviewer:  And that was used mostly for soups and
556:  Yeah, I believe. There was all kinds of ways to fix okra you could uh you could boil it, of course. And you could chip it up and you could fry it and you could make it and put it in vegetable soup.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  So different, and my grandmother as a holdover from Civil War days, she used to dry it.
Interviewer:  Dry it?
556:  She cut it in little slices Spread it out on a sheet on the roof and dry it. That was I say that was a holdover from Civil War days where they had to extemporize more or less, you know. She still dried apples and peaches and okra and made hominy like we explained yesterday and sauerkraut. Of course, molasses.
Interviewer:  How would she use the dried hominy?
556:  #1 Eh and and uh and boil it up not the hominy, they didn't dry the hominy. Okra? #
Interviewer:  #2 Didn't they uh. #
556:  Oh, generally in soup. Vegetable soup.
Interviewer:  After it was dried?
556:  Yeah. You put it in you put it i- i- you put it with water, it comes right back, you know?
Interviewer:  And the flavor's still there?
556:  Yeah, sure.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  It was alright.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Now what uh little radishes uh you have?
556:  Yep.
Interviewer:  What types of those do you remember?
556:  We had the long ones and the little round ones.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Two types. One was long and we used to grow big ones great big things. They'd grow about that big. I don't know what you'd call them, but we used to have some big radishes.
Interviewer:  And how bout uh {NW} different greens and did you call 'em greens or uh
556:  Yeah, greens. Mustard greens. Collards. Collards, cabbage, kale. {NS} Um.
Interviewer:  What did you call the greens when they were very young?
556:  #1 Still greens. #
Interviewer:  #2 Still greens? #
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Does this word salad have much?
556:  Yeah, well salad salad was uh a preparation of different vegetables cut up together. They cut up lettuce and tomatoes and cucumbers.
Interviewer:  You never used the word salad for the greens?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Poke salad.
556:  Now poke salad they did use poke salad because but that grew wild. You went out and gathered that.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Called it poke salad, yeah.
Interviewer:  But you're you're saying the salad was a dish rather than the greens?
556:  Right.
Interviewer:  Oh, I see.
556:  #1 Right. #
Interviewer:  #2 Mm-hmm. # #1 And how bout these little wild tomatoes about the size of your hand? #
556:  #2 Yeah, mm-hmm. #
Interviewer:  What uh Did you ever call 'em tommy toes?
556:  Called 'em vol well they generally called 'em volunteers. My grandmother told me that she remembered when tomatoes were called love apples, and they thought they were poisoned and wouldn't eat 'em. And they uh all were very small then.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And uh They still grow these little tomatoes as far up here {X} little things. And they're nice in soup and things like that. Those tiny tomatoes.
Interviewer:  Would you uh explain about uh beans, different kinds of beans and how you'd harvest and how you'd
556:  Well, we had pole beans and bunch beans. The pole beans you had to stick 'em. They grew up on and you generally got keens out of the swamp and stuck 'em in they grew that was a pole bean which considered much better than bunch beans. Bunch beans came in earlier. But of course they never let 'em mature, you know. They picked 'em green and snapped 'em, as they called 'em and And generally cooked 'em with with uh pork. Piece of ham hock or bacon or something like that.
Interviewer:  How how bout uh dried beans? Did you dry 'em?
556:  No. No, they never they never dried 'em, but they let 'em mature.
Interviewer:  Or if uh you had butter beans inside, how did you get them out?
556:  Butter beans were different now you picked the butter beans in {X}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  #1 That's a different. No, never dried it. Not a #
Interviewer:  #2 Ever dry any uh # Different uh parts of uh corn in the first place corn that you grow for the table would be different from what you grew from the hogs? Uh.
556:  Well, yeah. There was a sweet corn
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  that was for table use, and they called that other horse corn.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  They didn't They they grew this corn Was a sweet corn for the table.
Interviewer:  But you'd eat it at the table uh hold it in your hand.
556:  Yeah right {D: I had a like a good hour end up beside he'd get it all} {NS} She'd hold about two passes.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Uh, what was that called? Say, it's a sweet corn.
556:  Corn on the cob.
Interviewer:  Corn on the cob.
556:  Then they had it fried and fried corn too and they made corn fritters.
Interviewer:  Corn fritters?
556:  Fried, yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Uh. Cut the corn off the cob, and make it into fritters. And fry it, you know, and pretty good. Make corn fritters about like that.
Interviewer:  How bout uh the word roasting ears, did you?
556:  Rosin ears.
Interviewer:  Uh is that the same as corn uh corn on the cob?
556:  I'd say it.
Interviewer:  Oh. Which is the earlier term, you'd think?
556:  I had a letter from a nigger friend of mine up at our old home place. Told me to come and get some W-R-O-E-S-I-N. Say the way he spelled it, wroesin is W-R-O-E-S-I-N. I didn't know what he talking about. Said his wroesin ears was ready. Come up and get a mess.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. How bout uh mutton corn, did you ever hear that?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  And {NS} the stuff that's at the on the end of the ear that you have to pull off.
556:  Tossels.
Interviewer:  And
556:  I mean the silk. {NS} And they called it the tassels or called tossels. {NS}
Interviewer:  #1 Yes, well some people have have told me that the that they in other words that they use tossels for silk, so I'm interested in what you would say there. #
556:  #2 No, no the # tossels were up at the top. The silk came out of the ear,
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  and that the uh that's the way they were fertilized, you see. The tossels fell down on the silk left to the corn.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But the tassels up at the top of the stalk, you know.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. {NS}
556:  Uh, they called 'em tossels.
Interviewer:  The uh the people who call that stuff at the top of the stalk uh spindle will call the silk tossel.
556:  Well, they got it.
Interviewer:  Uh, that's those not familiar
556:  No, they got that backwards. The tossels are up at the top, and the silk came out of the ear.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh around the corn of course did you did you mention uh using uh uh stuffing sausage into anything other than the intestine?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  You you never smoked sausage in uh the husks?
556:  No, no it always no. #1 It was all. Shuck. #
Interviewer:  #2 Well did you say the outside the ear of corn is is a shuck? # Shuck. Uh.
556:  Yeah, no shucks were were dried and often used for cattle food. Cows will eat it. And they made used to make shuck mattress as a matter of fact the colored people all used those shucks they dried 'em to make shuck mattresses.
Interviewer:  Mattresses.
556:  Fact I slept on a shuck mattress one night, and I thought I'd never go to sleep.
Interviewer:  #1 {NS} #
556:  #2 Up all the rustling they care. Shucks. # They cut the end of it off and just keep the shuck.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Shuck mattresses. That was quite common back years ago.
Interviewer:  And uh things that you'd find in the woods uh have a stalk, a stem, and a cap?
556:  Yeah toadstools. Frog stools, we called.
Interviewer:  Frog stools, and if you could eat 'em, what
556:  Uh. We didn't. We didn't know which one was poisoned, which one wasn't.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  We had heard of such things as eating them but we were also told they were poisonous. Unless you know what you're doing you'd better not eat 'em.
Interviewer:  Uh different kinds of squash uh and melons that you remember.
556:  Yeah, uh we always had a big patch of watermelons and cantaloupes. Lots of watermelons, oh boy, the watermelons. Big water every afternoon about four o'clock we'd bust open cut about half a dozen watermelons. My grandpa especially good one big one it'd be a fine water- he'd say listen save the seed for this one now. So we'd always carefully save the seeds from that big watermelon, put 'em up to dry and then put 'em in an envelope to be planted the next year.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  If there was especially good melon you know it's you may wanna save the seed out of this one, now for next year.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And that is selective planting, you know, by getting the best seed.
Interviewer:  Sure.
556:  So we'd save those seeds, dry 'em out in the sun, and put 'em in an envelope, and write on there what kind of a watermelon it was a Kleckley sweet or a Georgia rattlesnake or whatever it was.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Had different names for all those watermelons. I remember my grandfather was very partial to a watermelon called the Kleckley sweet. And this Georgia rattlesnake.
Interviewer:  Georgia rattlesnake reminds me for some reason of uh of a word I heard for wheelbarrow. Uh what did you call the thing with handles and
556:  Wheelbarrow.
Interviewer:  Wheelbarrow. And did you ever hear that called a Georgia buggy?
556:  No, I've heard the expression, but we never used it.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Uh, to get back to vegetables here, how bout uh squash what kind of squash did did you use?
556:  Just ordinary squash. We never heard of this uh this newfangled squash they got now um We just had a regular squash.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Round they were round we had two different types. One was round, one was looked like gourd, long-necked squash. Called it a long-necked squash.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. You mentioned cantaloupe, uh are the did you have cantaloupe and mush melon or?
556:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  Are are are they the same?
556:  No, they're different. They're different melons. Different varieties. They're first cousins, but we had both kinds. See, the the mush melons are pretty big. About this size, and #1 cantaloupe's round. #
Interviewer:  #2 Are there # The bigger the I see
556:  The big one is the mush, they call it the mush melon. Mush k-melon.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Uh.
Interviewer:  And how about the big uh fruit oh may get this big. Kids like it at Halloween.
556:  Pumpkins?
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Oh yeah, we raised pumpkins.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  And different up in Pennsylvania they raised I went through Pennsylvania last October. And they had shocked the corn, something they never do down here. And in the after they shocked that corn, thousands of pumpkins all over the field. And they feed 'em to cows and hogs. I never heard of that before.
Interviewer:  No.
556:  They bring that there the farmers bring whole truckloads and dump 'em over in their hog pen and those hogs eat they bust 'em open and the cows eat 'em. I never heard of it before. But in Pennsylvania, that's what they were doing. They were feeding those pumpkins to cows and hogs.
Interviewer:  I never heard of that.
556:  #1 Well I saw it. I know they did it. I didn't know they #
Interviewer:  #2 Well, I seen pictures # But I never knew what they used the uh used the fruit for.
556:  Well, that's what they used it for. Cattle feed and hog feed.
Interviewer:  Fact that's a very attractive scene, is it?
556:  #1 Yeah, and seeing those big fields. And they plant the pumpkins in with the corn. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Mm-hmm.
556:  Make two crops on one field, and they shocked the corn. Something they never do down here.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  They gather the corn what they do here they pull the leaves and make fodder out of it, see? And then tie it up into bundles, which makes good horse feed and mule feed. But up there I don't know why they shock it or what they do with it after they shock it.
Interviewer:  What uh region was that?
556:  That was through Pennsylvania, I saw was
Interviewer:  Well, what area in Pennsylvania was it? The uh
556:  Well, it went right through the center of the state. It went by Beaver Falls and
Interviewer:  I wondered if it's the reason I ask is uh if you're talking about Amish uh people, and they're
556:  #1 Now, this wasn't the Amish section #
Interviewer:  #2 It wasn't? Uh. #
556:  No. But they say that's quite common. They they shock the corn all through there.
Interviewer:  It sounds like an old fashioned way of doing it, doesn't it? Uh.
556:  Yeah, they they go through the field, pull the corn off first, and then cut the stalks down and tie 'em into great shucks. {NS} There they are, you know. Look look like an Indian tepee.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  There they were, all over the fields all shocked. In every farmhouse you pass hot pumpkin pies. We stopped at one farmhouse. It was a cold, dreary day, and I was tired of driving, so we drove in this beautiful farmhouse and they had golden {D: gurns} of cream and hot p- pumpkin pies and I went there and there wasn't nobody there but us as big a living room, a big fire crackling there. It was very nice. She served us hot pumpkin pie and with golden {D: gurns} of cream. Very good.
Interviewer:  That is rare. Hard to find whipped cream now, genuine.
556:  The lady said she made fifty pumpkin pies every morning, and she was not gonna make any more. That's all I'm gonna make. And she says she sold fifty of those pies a day. Just that little sign out on the gate out on the highway.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh, when we had coffee yesterday you said uh that you had not heard uh drinking coffee uh for a how how do you express drinking coffee without milk?
556:  Straight.
Interviewer:  Straight. And you never heard of barefoot drink it?
556:  No, straight.
Interviewer:  Colorful terms. The different uh names you'd have for for homemade whiskey.
556:  Oh rot gut. {NW}
Interviewer:  That's that's something bad, is that?
556:  #1 Rot gut. White white lightning. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # And was that good whiskey, or
556:  Mm.
Interviewer:  No.
556:  Yesterday the day before yesterday we had this meeting with the Indians down here. Upstairs this Indian I mean um deputy sheriff came up stuck his head in the door, and I went out and say what do you want? Say we just got a still we raided. She'd like to look at it. Said we still got the niggers operating we come down here you can see them both. {NW} And I went down there and they had this very crude still. Horrible thing. That odor was {NS} just literally vile And they had that thing. There was a copper wire that went down a fifty-five gallon metal barrel. The crudest thing you ever saw. And just think, people drink that stuff. {X}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. That's why it's called rot gut, huh?
556:  #1 Rot gut, white lightning. #
Interviewer:  #2 You ever hear of the stout whiskey? #
556:  #1 Oh yeah. Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Call's to #
556:  Yeah, that's called it that. Stump water.
Interviewer:  Stump water?
556:  Mountain dew. Rot gut. White lightning.
Interviewer:  And how bout different kinds of berries that you recall?
556:  Well, of course we had blackberries and dewberries and strawberries. That's about all.
Interviewer:  You never had uh you never called blackberries raspberries?
556:  Uh well I've had raspberries myself uh down in my other home I had some raspberry bushes but we didn't have thing. We'd go out and pick edible country'd be covered with blackberries. The dewberries come on first, you know. Early in the spring. And the blackberries come on way later. Blackberries are much superior to dewberries. So we used to go out and pick 'em by the bucketfuls and out grandmother and mother would make blackberries jam and jelly and all that kind of stuff.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And how bout nuts uh
556:  #1 Well, we had uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} barks #
556:  Back in those days we had uh There were lots of um chestnuts but you know that some disease killed every chestnut tree in this country. You can't find a chestnut tree now, but they were we could pick up a lot of chestnuts. And of course you can associate a box of pecans and chinquapins. There are lots of chinquapins. And the best of all of 'em, though, is scalybobs.
Interviewer:  Uh. What name do you remember for peanuts? Uh.
556:  Goobers.
Interviewer:  Did you always say
556:  Goobers.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh the flat, old-shaped nuts uh they're used use 'em often at Christmas
556:  Oh.
Interviewer:  Grow around
556:  You mean nigger toes?
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  Almonds.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  The black ones. You call
Interviewer:  Yes, you don't grow any of those?
556:  No, they don't grow here. We can buy 'em for Christmas.
Interviewer:  And uh what do you remember about growing fruit commercially, and uh did you have any
556:  We didn't grow it commercially. We had my grand both my grandfathers had big orchards, peaches and apples and plums, but just for the family use. We never tried never sold had nobody to sell 'em to.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  We didn't try to sell 'em. We just had all we wanted.
Interviewer:  And uh how bout the uh the cherry? Did you have any, did you grow any?
556:  Wild cherries only. We had several wild cherry trees on the place. I remember climbing that tree and picking those. They were little, tiny things.
Interviewer:  #1 Smaller or #
556:  #2 But they # Yeah uh They wasn't very sweet. They were wild cherries.
Interviewer:  What uh how did you refer to the hard thing inside the cherry uh? Was that?
556:  Well, you mean the pit?
Interviewer:  That for the pit?
556:  That was the seed.
Interviewer:  Uh. Now, {NW} that's what I was interested in. Whether you had cherry pits in what you had inside a uh a peach. What would that be?
556:  That was a seed.
Interviewer:  That'd be a seed.
556:  We never referred 'em never called 'em pits.
Interviewer:  Oh. And to to tear a peach apart, what would you call it if it would stick to the seed and
556:  Well, one was a frees one was a cling and the other was a freestone.
Interviewer:  Freestone?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  #1 You ever hear the #
556:  #2 Why it came apart. #
Interviewer:  The cling called a plum peach?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Mm. And uh Mentioned your grandmother drying things. Uh, how would she dry apples? Would she take
556:  Slice 'em.
Interviewer:  #1 Slice #
556:  #2 In thin slices. #
Interviewer:  Would she take the uh center out?
556:  Just straight through. Didn't take out anything.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Just cut 'em straight through in thin slices and spread 'em out on a sheet.
Interviewer:  #1 Ever hear those called snits? #
556:  #2 And dry 'em. # Mm.
Interviewer:  Snits.
556:  Never heard that word.
Interviewer:  And uh.
556:  Also, we had a lot of mulberries. We had an enormous mulberry tree and by the way {NW} I you asked me. {NW} {C:I think this is mic feedback from 556 moving around} Almost forgot it. #1 That's the best that's the best I could do is these sketches. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yes, oh that's fine. # Yes see.
556:  Now let's see which one was this one this was my grand what was I saying?
Interviewer:  Harvey.
556:  Alright.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  That was one grandfather's house. Now here was the cistern now. And right here was a big farm bell up on a post way up in the air. That bell that probably weighed two or three hundred pounds. That he rung the bell.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  It was rung at daylight in the morning and and rung again and twelve o'clock to come to lunch and then at one o'clock to go back to work. And it was also used to signal various things.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I've pulled that rope a many a time.
Interviewer:  Now these are fine
556:  No, those are front steps. Now these are the columns cross the front.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Of the porch. And now the cistern now was down there. And that's why he ran the gutter down when he need a little water. At intervals.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. #1 Yes, you put that in and #
556:  #2 See, and this was a back porch and this was a kitchen and that was a dining room. And the poker I was telling you over the dining room table it went. Those are windows there. #
Interviewer:  See. You mark where the poker was?
556:  Put that over the dining room table.
Interviewer:  Um. It ran out the
556:  Ran out the window. Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  Window.
556:  That's that's it was a pulley up in the roof.
Interviewer:  There was no H in the end there? P-U-N-K-A.
556:  K-A.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Those are the front steps, and here's the back steps and that was the back porch and the kitchen right close to the dining room. Those are hall and that's the four rooms.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Now the other one it's a kind of a strange looking house, but this was put on later. That was the original house. #1 This little passageway from the kitchen to the dining room right through there see that room on each side, the store rooms. #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh. #
556:  Thunder rooms. And this was put on later and that's the porch all the way around it. Those three rooms there. Course you walked right off the porch right into those. Right onto this little porch.
Interviewer:  In uh earlier times did they was the kitchen separated from the house or?
556:  To here altogether it was out in the yard in case of fire, see?
Interviewer:  Oh, I see.
556:  And they want to get the kitchen as far away from the house as possible. If the kitchen caught on fire, they probably could try to cut the fire off here see. They wanted to get the kitchen as far away as possible.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  See, they put it way out here.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  #1 In this case in this other one it was detached, see? #
Interviewer:  #2 By the uh porch. #
556:  Yeah, the porch and it was away.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  And sometimes it wa- was out in the yard, but of course that brought on complications of bringing the food into the house.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  In many of the older homes the kitchen was entirely detached had a covered walkway. So in case there was a fire, it wouldn't Now this was my grandfather's it was a doctor's office there. That was his office. That was his consulting room back there. That was out in the corner of the yard.
Interviewer:  That's where the ladies quilted.
556:  That's where they did the quilting in this
Interviewer:  #1 You must have kept the frame. #
556:  #2 They used that for the quilting. #
Interviewer:  #1 Couple of nice #
556:  #2 Well they you could put it up # against the ceiling, see? And then they'd let it down when they needed it. Otherwise, it was up. Had uh pulleys, you know, on each corner.
Interviewer:  #1 Mm-hmm. #
556:  #2 Pulled it up and it # out of the way.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And when they wanted to use it they would they lowered it.
Interviewer:  Well, those are fine. I really appreciate your taking the time to do that. Cause it's
556:  This was a chicken house, and and I'd smoke outside of of course the smokehouse and the smokehouse was much larger than that, but that's why it was located back over here.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And that was the cistern had you know all covered with a roof and a wall around it with a windlass that you wound the
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  bucket up from the well.
Interviewer:  No, we'll keep these right with the uh tapes, and uh it's an interesting record. And {NW} people will hear the tapes can can uh follow this this
556:  Now that old home there is burned. It's gone.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. They uh thank you very much indeed.
556:  Of course the numerous outhouse and carriage house stood out there and the barn and the back house and all that kind of stuff. They was out, too. Didn't have room to show 'em on that sheet of paper. #1 Oh boy. #
Interviewer:  #2 Okay good. Leave them here with the tapes, put them together. Uh, and {NW} and a few more questions. When uh {NW} do you remember first getting fruit from Florida or Texas? Uh what was it an occasion for Christmas or? #
556:  Yeah. The first fruits we got was lemons. We used to get 'em by boxes and they're from Italy. Those lemons lemons were always Italian lemons. The first one that I saw shipped in here were from Italy, and each uh lemon wrapped up in a little piece of tissue paper.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  You got 'em in boxes and and we used the boxes for hen nests, never got through with 'em. They we'd always go to the store and beg a lemon box for hen nests. You know they would divide it in it's two squares together, and you could put a plank across the bottom and make a good hen nest. That's uh that's my earliest recollection of shipped-in fruit was those Italian lemons.
Interviewer:  And uh later from Florida. What uh
556:  The oranges. Then we got to getting in oranges by the boxes from Florida.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And they were numbered according to the number of oranges in the box. Always had a number on 'em. So many box of oranges to the box. And but uh you only saw oranges at Christmas.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  My uncle lived way out here in the country. Pickens county, Alabama. {NW} And they always got a orange in the stocking at Christmas for the toe of the stocking. And he said one August they went to Columbus, which was there about twenty miles. They went to Columbus. And he came back and he told the boys said out there in the country they sold oranges in the stores in August. Well, they couldn't believe that, and he said he never did live that lie down. They wouldn't believe it. Said he knew they only had oranges at Christmas.
Interviewer:  At Christmas that uh
556:  Yeah, they could sure.
Interviewer:  {NW} People {NW} have sugar maples around, but did did they ever uh tap for
556:  Uh no.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  No, never heard of such thing as maple syrup.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And if if they had some uh if they would refer to to uh syrup that came in from New England, say. {NW} They'd say is this is this genu-
556:  Genuine.
Interviewer:  Genuine. {X}
556:  Map- and they didn't and they didn't like it either. They didn't like it, maple syrup.
Interviewer:  They didn't?
556:  No, they didn't like maple syrup. They liked that old Louisiana molasses.
Interviewer:  I see. The uh your relative is he uh you always called your what uh you'd say well we have the same name, but she's no
556:  No kin.
Interviewer:  Kin. Uh and uh your grandparents you mentioned uh you mentioned the aunt and oh um do you remember any uh significance {NW} to niece and nephew any confusions there were the terms used for uh very loosely for relatives or were they pretty
556:  Yeah, well you know. The word coudin instead of cousin. They used coudin.
Interviewer:  #1 Uh-huh. #
556:  #2 Coudin so-and-so. #
Interviewer:  #1 That that that would mean any relative? #
556:  #2 Yeah, any relative was a coudin. # No matter how far off, they was your coudins.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And if uh a grocer said uh you outghta buy this to a man, and he said well, I might but I'll first I have to ask and he meant his wife, what would he say?
556:  Ask the old lady.
Interviewer:  The old lady? And if if you said that to her, she's say well, perhaps or maybe I'll I'll ask
556:  Ask the old man.
Interviewer:  The old man?
556:  Mm.
Interviewer:  And a woman who lost her husband was
556:  She's a widow woman.
Interviewer:  And if if he just left her then
556:  She's a grass widow.
Interviewer:  Grass widow.
556:  Mm. As opposed to a sod widow.
Interviewer:  I see. Sod widow.
556:  Sod widow meant he was dead.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Under the sod.
Interviewer:  I see. And uh a stranger come to town, what would he be known as?
556:  Newcomer.
Interviewer:  Newcomer?
556:  #1 By the way, they had to live here thirty years before they're before they'd be before they were anything but a newcomer. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
556:  Fellow lived down here on the corner. I know he lived here fifty years, and they still look up at him as a outsider.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Like a fellow told me in Columbus A run that's that gentleman's let's see what's that runs a clothing {D: Byers and McGrath} There's a clothing store I bought a suit from not long ago, I said how long have you lived in Columbus? Oh, he said, I'm a newcomer. I've only lived here thirty-five years. Says they still haven't accepted me here yet. Says I've only lived here thirty-five years, so I'm a newcomer.
Interviewer:  I I uh just a couple weeks ago talk was in Tennessee ran into the same thing and a woman said you shouldn't talk to me. You oughta see Mrs. so-and-so. I I've just came here. I've been here only since 1915.
556:  Well, this McGrath told me said they still haven't accepted me yet here in Columbus. I lived here thirty-five years and said I'm not even accepted at all. I'm a stranger, newcomer. They have a they have a s- by the way I talked to this group a year or so ago. The origina- they're descendants of the original settlers of Columbus. The original families, and these are the offspring of the original settlers, and it's terrible. You can't get into they had some applications out for people who wanted to get in. They said no, we would have to delve into this further. We can't take that or we had to check on 'em. And they wouldn't wouldn't take them in. They
Interviewer:  Now is this the club called the Pioneers?
556:  I believe that was what it was. {X}
Interviewer:  I've interviewed a couple of the Pioneer ladies.
556:  Maybe it was. I've forgotten the name. The one lady, very charming, and she hardly looks like a Pioneer. She
Interviewer:  #1 More like a duchess. #
556:  #2 Well, she she's a descendant of what was her name? #
Interviewer:  Uh, she was a {B}.
556:  Oh, I I know who you're talking about.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Now her husband or her grandfather was at the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit out here. And he's written a book. I have it. She gave me the book on the signing of the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit. All this country was taken away from the Choctaw Indians. And {B} yeah, I know I know who she is.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Mm.
556:  {B} Alabama was named after her grandfather.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Well, the first first lock of was Tombigbee waterway's in {B} Alabama. It was named for her grandfather.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Well, he had a very lovely woman, very
556:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  gracious and uh and very dynamic, as well.
556:  #1 Oh yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Talk about Pioneers you think is
556:  #1 Well, I know it was hard to get in that society because they had several applications from ladies who had #
Interviewer:  #2 Ninety years old. #
556:  But they hasn't given their ancestry quite correctly and they and no, we can't no look they can't go on today. We'll have to check into this further.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  Have to do some more research. Hard to get into.
Interviewer:  Old home was it was
556:  Well, see Columbus and Macon was the only two towns on the Mississippi that were never captured during the Civil War and they wasn't burned. That's why they have these old homes out here in in Columbus they wasn't burned most of them were burned to the ground. The whole town. And this town would've been burned. {X}
Interviewer:  {NW} Uh, as you were explaining the switch engines. Are you they have
556:  Well, you you explained about all the old homes. Antebellum homes in Columbus and here in Macon. And the reason we have 'em is that these were the only two towns of any size on the Mississippi that were ever captured or occupied by the federal forces. They had {D: earthquakes} around Columbus. Eight miles long from the river north of town that's entirely encircling the town. {X: Well, Columbus} had no military value, so rather than the loss of life they would have been by the way those embankments were built by slaves. And rather than incur the loss of life to take a town that had no military value, they just bypassed it. And Strait's raiders when he's in his raid from Memphis to I believe Baton Rouge, Louisiana through Mississippi burning, destroying, and and he sent a he went some miles west of Macon, but he sent a company over to burn Macon or destroy it or do whatever he could do. And they camped about they got out here about a mile or two from {X: town and they} camped there that night. And these old men and boys here in town heard about it of course all the ones of military age were gone. Anywhere from seventeen to forty-five were in the army. And there was a couple of old switch engines and this was a railroad center kind of. And these old men and boys got those old switch engines and puff and rang the bell and blew the whistle where they could hear it and bellowing out these commands. And they thought that was a quite a number of Confederate soldiers here, and they only had one country, so they thought best not try to attack 'em, so they went the other direction.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And Macon was saved for that reason.
Interviewer:  {X} Striking. What is the uh the big white church on the the highway there?
556:  That's the methodist church. That's the original methodist church. The original church was built in about I'd say 1840. Back in there.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  But it's been added to and
Interviewer:  It's almost like a mission that's
556:  The original center is is original, but they've added wings and another story and so forth.
Interviewer:  Does it uh have any relation to the Indians or it looks almost like an old uh?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Mission style.
556:  No, it was built after the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh I wonder if you'd just reminisce uh, you know, for a while about school uh how the schoolhouse was uh uh built or how it was furnished uh
556:  Well, the first school I went to was out in the country near my grandfather's when I was a small boy. I started school in a just a one-room country school with one teacher. And the grades already always I mean uh went from the primary up through the eighth or tenth grade. They were grown people in that school. They called it {X} School. And course the little the teachers teacher did the best they could course they were mostly just high school graduates. So my sister and I went to school there. That one-room school until we got up well pretty good so To go to a better school that they moved down here to Macon.
Interviewer:  How was that one-room school furnished? Uh and
556:  Very crudely. We had a a up on a long table across the back of the room with benches down the side and they sat on these benches
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  with a table. The teacher had a table up in the front of the room. And a {NW} wooden fired stove in the middle. We had to get the wood out of the woods. And all the boys brought the dogs to school with 'em everyday. And they'd get into fight under the school.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  Heifers sent some of the boys out to stop the dog fight. So much noise. And it recessed or {NS} Noon, lunch, and we'd all go rabbit-hunting. I remember one day at noon we went rabbit-hunting. We got so far from school and had such good luck, we forgot all about going back to school. It's nearly four o'clock when we got back to school.
Interviewer:  What was that called?
556:  What, what, what?
Interviewer:  Uh, being absent like that.
556:  Well, we'd uh It wasn't called in much of anything.
Interviewer:  Was that hooky or? {NS}
556:  Well, we wouldn't use that word hooky till I came to town. We had never heard that word before. We just got so enthralled with the rabbit-hunting. Caught so many rabbits we just didn't go back to school. Got there about four o'clock. Of course the teacher balled us out, so we didn't mind that usually. A little girl weighed about a hundred pounds.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  I'll never forget the way we used to go rabbit-hunting. We'd all carry our dogs to school.
Interviewer:  And then uh when you came to town
556:  Came to Macon
Interviewer:  How how was how were the rooms furnished? Uh.
556:  Oh, the were very they had a nice school. The school was very it had a very nice school. Yeah.
Interviewer:  It still have benches?
556:  No, no. It was furnished correctly. It had desks. {NS} Each child had their own desk and
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  It's a it was a fine school. I when I out of the third grade when I came to Macon. {NS}
Interviewer:  And uh {NS} What uh you say you played the word here was play hooky and
556:  Oh yeah the yes sir you got a beating Monday morning. We When we was kids, a couple of boys would say we'd we would Was just a week of slow torture for us in school. And we could make it to Friday noon. And Friday afternoon, we'd always play hooky and go out in the {D: season} Come in Monday morning, the teacher would give us a good whipping and that was it. Well, we figured it was worth it, so Mm. Whipping didn't hurt us, you know, so hurt. We figured a half a day out in the woods was worth a little switching.
Interviewer:  Did you ever call uh playing hooky uh {D: boltening} or bojack or
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Played out of school?
556:  We just called it playing hooky is all we called it.
Interviewer:  Oh. If you got sick, would they uh out for two or three weeks, would you say you had to lay out of school?
556:  You had to lay out. Take it, you had to have a good excuse.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  See that scar there? When I was in about the fourth or fifth grade, my horse kicked me there and crushed my whole jaw and I was out of school I guess for three or more three months.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  So I just missed it.
Interviewer:  How was the uh how did they teach you about the war? Uh, did they call it the war between the states all the time or?
556:  Well, they tried to get away with that term Civil War because Civil War denotes uh uprising among people of the same nation, see? The Confederacy was a duly organized and functioning nation before the first shot was ever fired. Organized down to the last detail. And it was a separate nation altogether, which they had the right to do. When the states entered the union, they entered with the understanding that if they didn't see {NW} they could withdraw. {NW} Excuse me. Huh? {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh, again some of the expressions that you recall um did you call a teacher uh uh if she's a woman, what did you call her?
556:  Miss.
Interviewer:  Uh, miss uh. Or if you didn't address her by her name, she would be known as a school
556:  School mom.
Interviewer:  School mom? And uh if she would refer to you as her
556:  Scholars.
Interviewer:  Scholars? Uh-huh.
556:  And Holler well out in the country, she'd when time came to holler, he'd hit on the wall or hit some holler books, books, books! That'd mean get in.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Books.
Interviewer:  Get the books.
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  And uh
556:  Time for books.
Interviewer:  The uh {NS} The kinds of things that uh that girls might become uh for example if a girl came into town to work to for lawyer or a a merchant as a what would she be known as his secretary or a
556:  #1 Well, uh stenographers they called 'em. #
Interviewer:  #2 Stenographers. #
556:  If if she worked in there as a typist, they were all stenographers.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
556:  And they weren't called secretaries until way later. They were stenographers. Or saleslady. #1 They worked in a store, she was a saleslady. If she works at all, she's a stenographer. #
Interviewer:  #2 Saleslady. # Mm-hmm. And if uh uh this is an interesting question. {NW} If uh you had hospitals for one thing, did you have a hospital in Macon? Uh. Uhh.
556:  Didn't. Back in those days, you had to either go to Memphis or Mobile to a hospital.
Interviewer:  Go that far?
556:  {D: Amarillo.}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Mostly went they went to Memphis for that {X} you know. When they did start, they wanted to know what an append a attack of appendicitis was.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Until they finally found out and then you had to rush off on a train to Memphis.
Interviewer:  #1 I see. Uh, what was the attitude toward um women that became nurses? Uh. #
556:  #2 Alright. # It was alright.
Interviewer:  #1 Uh, there was no stigma attached to #
556:  #2 Not, not no whatsoever. # In fact, they were encouraged to become nurses.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. {NW}
556:  Uh. Florence Nightingale started that, you know?
Interviewer:  Oh, made it respectable. Uh.
556:  Yeah. She made it respectable. Or possibly before that time, it wasn't so respectable, but she made it respectable.
Interviewer:  That's great. And uh {NW} regarding these this school term and the school day, uh how would you after vacation, they'd say uh when does school
556:  School was out.
Interviewer:  #1 School was out? Uh-huh and when uh when did it #
556:  #2 Yeah, school was # Took up.
Interviewer:  Took up? Uh-huh. And the day uh School was out at the end of the day. Or what how did they say that?
556:  Uh.
Interviewer:  The end of the term. It was out and
556:  End of each day?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Well it I know a kid asked me one morning He was late for school. He asked if school turned in yet. {X} School turned in yet? I said, yeah, it's turned in.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Turned out. It turned out at three o'clock and turned in at eight.
Interviewer:  I see. I see. Uh.
556:  In fact, that expression's used in some poem. I see I read a poem by who was it? Yeah right about the school turning a school turn out. That term must've been used a hundred years ago. In this particular poem, I forget {X} Would hear a {X} to have me some school turn out.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And {NW} asking some question about homemade toys over there. Do you remember the uh the plank that went around?
556:  Oh yeah. We had one our backyard.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Had a big uh. A big block of wood. Uh. It must've been about a twelve by twelve. It had a iron spike driven right in the middle and the big hole in this It would the plank they used on it was about a two by twelve or fourteen feet and get a kid on each side his feet could touch the ground and you could really spin on it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And we had that and we also had a ferris wheel. Two big four by fours were put up by like the ceiling, an iron bar was put through that, and then it was a two by sixes came down with a swing on each end of it. Over and over.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  The uh the seat would also had an iron bar through it, and it was held to hold its position as it went over, see? And we had more fun with that thing.
Interviewer:  I see. What did you call the thing that went around? Uh, did you call it a flying jenny, too or?
556:  It was a imitation of flying jenny, yeah.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But they call it a flying jenny. And then there's the ferris wheel over there. My mother figured that thing out and got it carved to the right. The backyard, and we had more half the kids in town came around to ride on that ferris wheel.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  Had lots of fun. You had to get two balanced just right. The same weight, you see? You got one too heavy on one end, and the other would fly up in the air, you see?
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  Couldn't get down.
Interviewer:  #1 So #
556:  #2 You had to get two about the same weight. #
Interviewer:  Sounds wonderful. You ever have anything that was a limbered board that would be fixed on either end and uh you'd jump in the middle and it would come up and {X} board?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  Uh. And the other thing we mentioned over there was the uh
556:  #1 See-saw. Yeah, we had see-saws. Still but this #
Interviewer:  #2 See-saw? #
556:  When we when we built this ferris wheel, the see-saws went out. People When they used that ferris wheel, they wouldn't use a see-saw.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Another thing homemade toy they used to make was they call we called it a jumping jack. Made out of wood with loose legs and you could tap him on the head and he'd dance. Or either sit on a board, you know? And hit this board. #1 Maybe you've seen the things. A figure made with loose legs. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # Work it sometime and squeeze him.
556:  And you could stretch a string and hit him on the head, and that thing could really Our niggers used to make 'em all the time.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  Really dance.
Interviewer:  And uh the thing that you would put on the uh limb of the tree and suspend it with ropes?
556:  Swings. Oh boy.
Interviewer:  #1 People ever say swing swang? #
556:  #2 We'd swing. Swing. #
Interviewer:  Say always. Swing.
556:  Swung.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh something that you blow through?
556:  Whistles.
Interviewer:  #1 Uh. #
556:  #2 We used to make flutes out of cane. # Take a hot iron, take a jar of cane used to be {X} canes in the swamps. {D: And pack those things and rode enormous heights.} And we'd take a a jar of that cane. Leave this jar there and then cut this one off and take a hot iron and drill a hole up here and six little holes down here. And you could really make music on those things.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Uh. The niggers er all of 'em had a flute. And they used to have a tune they played on it called Lost John. Ha. I seen a nigger come out wrote a minute out at midnight and walking down the road playing Lost John.
Interviewer:  Lost John.
556:  Oh, they could really play.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  And it you burned a hole in it with a red hot iron. Get you a red hot small piece of iron and burn a hole in it.
Interviewer:  I'm gonna test this thing out. I see. {NS}
556:  You know what she told about the dolls?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  They were rag dolls, and and they would use different colors thread for the hair. Red hair, yellow hair, and they'd paint the faces on.
Interviewer:  Um.
556:  And then dress 'em.
Interviewer:  She referred to uh her toys as uh as playthings.
556:  #1 Yeah, playthings. #
Interviewer:  #2 Do you ever hear play pretty? #
556:  Play pretties. They niggers all called 'em play pretties.
Interviewer:  #1 I don't see why a white term. #
556:  #2 They # They called 'em play pretties. {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Play pretties. But there they used to call 'em play pretties.
Interviewer:  #1 The uh musical instruments uh that that in addition to the flute {NW} that you'd play through uh by moving it back and forth. #
556:  #2 Yeah, harp. #
Interviewer:  Or the one that uh you pluck.
556:  That was a Jew's harp.
Interviewer:  Jew's harp. Uh-huh.
556:  Well, we used to have some experts on that Jew's harp. Oh boy. Especially among the niggers. They could really play that thing. We had one nigger he could take a A mouth on a Jew harp or what they call a French harp And he had a lot of pieces. It took him sometimes fifteen or twenty minutes. He had one piece called the uh what is the name of that train leaving Mobile and went to St. Louis? And that man that nigger could play that thing just like a train running. He could imitate sound. And he could start that train off puff puff and he'd pick up and whistle. It was really something. He'd come to town here and he'd for thirty cents, he'd play each on of his piece. If you gave him thirty cents, he'd play it. He had another one he called one uh The Slave Had Escaped and the Blood Hounds Were After Him. And uh and he could put that thing on, those dogs baying, and by the way, a bloodhound is a very inoffensive animal. Don't let anybody tell you the bloodhound tears people up. They're the gentlest animals in the world. And they when they catch you, they don't do a thing but lie down and lick you.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  A a bloodhound is the most inoffensive animal on earth. The gentlest animals. They just have that ability and that knack of following scents. But when they catch you, they don't do anything.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  If you take some of these books they have you think they'd tear you up course they don't do it. #1 They're perfectly gentle. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Uh-huh.
556:  And even-tempered. They're not vicious at all. The finest bloodhounds are the most I guess the most even-tempered dogs you ever saw because they're not vicious at all. #1 And this #
Interviewer:  #2 It uh it couldn't be high-spirited, or they wouldn't be so the dog ended up the trail on your scent. #
556:  Well, he would put on this piece. This slave had escaped and it would trail him with bloodhounds, and his old mother would be crying and whooping. The dogs are barking, and the nigger running. The dumbest thing you ever heard. You it must've taken him about twenty minutes to play that piece, but he got thirty cents for it.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  #1 Thirty cents. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # What we'd do for a tape recording of that.
556:  Oh boy, I've often wondered. That and that train that he he could put on that train to start off puff puff puff puff and it was finally get to going fast, you know?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And he'd trot far all the way St. Louis. I'd {NW} under this shed in St. Louis, he'd say. And whistle you can get a whistle for the cross and you know.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. The uh that was a uh uh GM and O train
556:  #1 Yeah, from Mobile to St. Louis. That #
Interviewer:  #2 Mobile to #
556:  train was called uh I believe he called it the cannon ball.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  This was a fast train cause it only stopped at certain stops.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  The cannon ball.
Interviewer:  #1 By the way, did they rebel? Was it a a few trains that was that uh #
556:  #2 Yeah. # And Mobile to St. Louis.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  And then on to Chicago. They finally went all the way to Chicago. By the way, I rode a cab. {D: And that train was put on like it was ride a cab to Mobile and back.} Apparently it's an experience.
Interviewer:  Yes, it certainly would be.
556:  I blew the whistle. {X} Quite a day.
Interviewer:  Well, the uh southerner way has five working steam locomotives.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Including one large one running excursions in Kentucky, in particular, and then Virginia this summer.
556:  It's coming into {X} sometime this summer. One of those railroad buffs asked me not long ago if I'd come down ride to Mobile with 'em. I'm looking forward to it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Um. When you went uh fishing I don't think we talked about uh did you use boats?
556:  #1 Oh yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Or? # And what did you call the boats? Were they
556:  Skiffs.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And the the bait for the fish uh
556:  Well, we we used crickets and roaches mostly.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  My father was a great fisherman, and we grew up on the lake and the buggy. He was a travel when he was a traveling salesman, I had to paddle the boat, and that's where I got my distaste for fishing. I had to sit in that boat all day and paddle that boat while he would catch the fish. We we'd leave here on Friday. Take along a skillet like that went out there maybe two or three of 'em. Sack of meals and salt and lard and coffee. And we'd go up there and fish all day and catch strange fish about that long. We'd come back to the campsite and clean those fish and he started cooking 'em. Make a big {NS} whole cake of bread and a big pot of coffee and those fish and boy were I seem him eat twenty of 'em.
Interviewer:  You use any kind of worms? Or what I'm wondering is
556:  #1 Well, we did use red worms. We used those, but crickets #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Would they be the uh small
556:  #1 The red one was the small ones. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Uh-huh.
556:  These other old worms are earthworms. They were the big ones. The red worms were much better if you could get 'em. But it you know it was hard to get 'em. They were hard to find. But we used mostly crickets because they were so plentiful. Crickets and roaches.
Interviewer:  #1 How bout uh little fish uh what are they called? #
556:  #2 Yeah. Minnows? #
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Yeah. We used minnows. That was for trout fishing. But he he loved to fish for brim. He'd rather fish for brim than anything cause you'd catch so many more of 'em. You could just you could find a brim bed and you could catch twenty or thirty right quick.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  While they were nesting, you know, they what do you call it when they
Interviewer:  School?
556:  No.
Interviewer:  New school of fish.
556:  Fawn spawning.
Interviewer:  #1 Spawn. Mm-hmm. #
556:  #2 When it was spawning. # That's the time to catch 'em. Or could you catch 'em.
Interviewer:  Uh, what do they how do they what word do they use to get the boat into the water? Do they use the word launch or?
556:  Well, they've already launched. They're already in the water. Tied up to a tree or something. The rowboats would be tied with a chain around a tree.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  They're already course you could when you'd put 'em in you you'd launch them, but they were there {NW} already in the water. The boats were already there.
Interviewer:  And did you play with horseshoes or?
556:  Oh yeah. We had horseshoes.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  Horseshoes and washers.
Interviewer:  Did you ever head anybody call a horseshoe game quates or quoits?
556:  No. No, not that we just
Interviewer:  Quates.
556:  Yeah, that that is a game alright but they never referred to it by that name. Another thing used to play is cut holes and use these big washers about that long and pitch 'em to the holes. Had three holes and then pitched the washer, these big washers
Interviewer:  #1 Mm-hmm. #
556:  #2 That was quite a game. #
Interviewer:  What uh Uh what which of these terms did you say is a game that you that you know about? Uh. Did did you say kites or quoits or
556:  #1 Kates? #
Interviewer:  #2 No. #
556:  We didn't call it either one of those. Cause it was horseshoes.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And in playing tag, what was uh what was safe? What did you call the place that was safe?
556:  Uh bay home base I guess.
Interviewer:  Base?
556:  And uh and whoever was it {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  It If somebody was it
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh if you played hide and seek
556:  Home free.
Interviewer:  Home free. And uh what would you do if you got behind a bush and hid. Say, how did you get down?
556:  What we would do we all boys all wore hats in those days. We'd get down a bush and swap hats.
Interviewer:  {NW}
556:  Sticks and hide it just the the hat I aw you for one, two, three for so-and-so, and you raise it up and it wasn't that at all. He was home free, see?
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  We swap hats and fooled it yeah up here, you know.
Interviewer:  #1 I see. #
556:  #2 We used to do that all the time and swap hats with # {D: somebody say have a brown hat and somebody black hat and you swap hats with him and poke just the hat out around the corner, right around a bush.} Call one, two, three for so-and-so. Mm-mm, you're wrong. I'm home free. {NW}
Interviewer:  And and how did you describe your act of getting the behind the bush? Getting down uh the thing I'm looking for there is is scrooch down, scrunch down, hunker down, squat down
556:  We'd call it squatting.
Interviewer:  #1 Squatting? Uh. #
556:  #2 We'd squat. We'd squat. #
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. While we think of this, did you, do you the act of uh men getting down in this part of, you know, down like this at uh not kneeling in this act, to be specific.
556:  That was squatting.
Interviewer:  #1 That's squatting. You never used the word hunker? #
556:  #2 Yeah, that's # No. Well, I have heard the term term used hunker down.
Interviewer:  Hunker down?
556:  Hunker down. I've heard that term, but that was used occasionally. Yeah.
Interviewer:  Mm-mm.
556:  Hunker down.
Interviewer:  What if you saw a man do that today and that that'd be squatting down?
556:  That'd be squatting.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh if a child went to the teacher with some stories about another child, that child would be known as
556:  He was a tattletale.
Interviewer:  Tattletale?
556:  Yes sir. Tattletale tit, your tongue shall be split.
Interviewer:  #1 Huh. I see. #
556:  #2 {NW} # Yeah, tattletale tit's your tongue. That's what we'd holler at him and he {X} Tattletale tit, your tongue will be split.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
556:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  And uh the act of turning on the grass over and over.
556:  Somersets.
Interviewer:  And uh.
556:  Somersault.
Interviewer:  How bout uh Oh, it's going swimming Uh what uh how what word did you use for swim? I swim, I swam, I swum.
556:  Swum.
Interviewer:  I swum?
556:  Yes. Swum across the river.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And how bout dive? What
556:  Dove.
Interviewer:  Dove?
556:  You dove in.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And I heard one fellow say he div in.
556:  #1 {NW} This this little boy #
Interviewer:  #2 Div in. Well I I'm interested in #
556:  The high water got up around his house down here. He throw one right out I said how was the high water. He said man I could've div in off the back porch.
Interviewer:  #1 Uh-huh. #
556:  #2 {NW} Could've div in. # An illiterate, uneducated verb
Interviewer:  As a matter of fact, uh those verb forms go back
556:  Uh, they do.
Interviewer:  Uh seventeenth century. Uh they're I think what's happened is uh people simply use them and they've been handed down and they just haven't been changed. Uh corrected
556:  Well that by the time could've div in the river off his back porch. {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Yeah, div in. Well that's a good word up in the up in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Div
Interviewer:  Sure.
556:  And and there's
Interviewer:  Uh, you can trace it by rhyme schemes. Uh to England and they they were um perfect
556:  And there's no such word up there as dev as deev.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  It's uh deev. You take the famous Texan Texas scout Walker Mexican independence was Deef Smith.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  By the way, he's written up to this much magazine. Deef Smith.
Interviewer:  Yeah uh.
556:  And he wasn't Deaf Smith. It was Deef Smith.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Same as scout. Spy.
Interviewer:  Guess it's odd how uh people will preserve architecture and be really very proud of old forms, you know. But uh they I guess a schoolteacher's uh twang and old forms in language uh tend to be pushed out.
556:  #1 Well, they got so engrossed with this speaking. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  Good English, they pushed all those old words out of the language entirely.
Interviewer:  Right. Uh.
556:  #1 Like I was telling you #
Interviewer:  #2 All all over the country. It's #
556:  It was like I was telling you about the boy the He's seeing him and taking after him. Well, that teacher was horrified. Oh boy, did she light him up. And of course he knew better. He was just uh meanness.
Interviewer:  When it came time to uh meet girls, uh what was the process known as if you became interested in a girl somebody would say well, well I hear he's he's what uh?
556:  Make he'd either shining up to her.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Or courting.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Uh, what else did they use? I know shining up, they used that term. Uh. Now, what else?
Interviewer:  What would she be known as? Uh, his
556:  Well, it's we used the same word then as steady as they use now. They were going steady. Use the word steady.
Interviewer:  And uh she would be his girlfriend or sweetheart or?
556:  Yeah, well, yeah.
Interviewer:  I wonder what she what he would be to her. How would you refer to him?
556:  I've often called heard 'em say He's her boy Friday.
Interviewer:  #1 I see. #
556:  #2 {NW} I've heard that one. Her boy Friday. #
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Robinson Crusoe.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  He her boy Friday.
Interviewer:  Would you think they use uh girlfriend or boyfriend or not so much?
556:  We never use back when I was we didn't use that expression girlfriend and boyfriend. That came on later, I suppose. Because we didn't we didn't use that word those words.
Interviewer:  So uh he would uh be her steady, and she might be uh
556:  There's a there's a and his girl we were just refer to it as his girl But that we didn't say girlfriend and boyfriend. That's I don't know. We just didn't. I don't know why.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. How about uh words for kissing? You have any joking words for
556:  No. I don't remember any.
Interviewer:  And going to dances uh what do you remember about them? Were they held in homes or?
556:  Yeah. All different places. Home uh had a hall down here they used to have 'em in. Over the bank there was a big vacant hall up there they used to have their dances in that hall. Always had a nigger orchestra. With a bull fiddle and a mandolin and a couple of guitars and possibly a banjo. And always a fiddle. A fiddle player generally carried the solo part and the rest of 'em just joined in.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But these wandering colored orchestras used to come through here all the time. They'd get out on the street and get together and start playing. Some guy would jump up always down and dance for that night cause we had no local musicians. That is, no local band. But these wandering nigger orchestras. They just Every so often they'd come through and drop off a train come with always with a big bull fiddle on his back. They'd get on the street and start playing. Of course, the crowd would congregate and the leader of the band would say how bout a dance tonight? We'd like to play for you. How much? Oh, well we'll just take up a collection. Whatever we get will be alright {D: which is what I said}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And they would play and take up a collection. Make a few dollars and move onto the next town.
Interviewer:  The next town. That's uh. where again that's one regrets the lack of a tape recorder. It'd be great to record those things.
556:  Oh boy.
Interviewer:  Um. How about uh if you ask a girl to a well if you met her at the dance and asked to take her home, how would you say that uh? May I?
556:  How bout seeing you home after the dance?
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Seeing you home.
Interviewer:  I'll see you home.
556:  Yeah, not take you, see you home.
Interviewer:  Would you uh ever say carry? You ever carry?
556:  Quite often. Let me carry you home. Uh especially if you had a buggy and a good spanking horse.
Interviewer:  #1 I see. #
556:  #2 It was # carry if you could get her in the buggy.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  And.
556:  By the way, buggies if you didn't have a buggy, you could rent one for fifty cents an hour.
Interviewer:  Fifty cents?
556:  Spanking horse.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Had to be uh very careful, though to watch the time because right over to the second hour, it would cost you another fifty cents. {NW} Delivery see we had three big delivery stables staying with us at the time and every Sunday afternoon the boys would wrap nice red-wheeled buggy and a high-stepping horse and take your girl out for a ride.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But as I say, you gotta watch your time. You didn't have a fifty cents, you better watch it. Get back, they'd charge you a dollar.
Interviewer:  And if uh you proposed {NW} and she said no, people would say I hear she
556:  Turned him down.
Interviewer:  Um but if you got uh uh if she said yes, then you would get what?
556:  {NW} She'd took him up.
Interviewer:  Take him up the?
556:  Took him.
Interviewer:  Uh, what words do you remember for uh married uh say hitched?
556:  Got hitched.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh. Any uh dignified term uh what would you say #1 Say the preacher's #
556:  #2 Oh, they became engaged first. # And then they were united in marriage.
Interviewer:  Oh, I see.
556:  They became engaged.
Interviewer:  And uh
556:  A long engagement was quite the rule back then. That was a
Interviewer:  In the wedding, uh who would stand up with you? Uh.
556:  Well, uh the wedding party. You would select the best man and the girl would select a ring bearer and a maid of honor or matron of honor. Plus the ushers. The whole crowd was down there.
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear of waiters or wait men or groomsmen?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Now,
556:  Groomsmen.
Interviewer:  Groomsmen.
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  Alright. Were they is that synonymous with uh best man?
556:  Yeah, any man any who of them who the the groom selected was groomsmen. Whoever he selected uh ushers uh. Best man. I hope not.
Interviewer:  They were all groomsmen?
556:  They were the groomsmen.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And they up here the women they uh that the wife would select the girl would select would be.
556:  She would select the girls.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Did you uh recall any noisy celebrations after uh after a wedding?
556:  Well, of course they'd have a reception somewhere after the wedding. And sometimes they probably got a little out of hand. Maybe they have especially if they had champagne.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  If I ever got down to watch. Generally were very dignified affairs, though.
Interviewer:  Would that be true of country weddings, as well? Uh.
556:  Yeah, they they kept 'em under control pretty well at our. I only went to but a few, but uh They were pretty dignified affairs it depending on whose home they were in. If they were in some hard-boiled father of the bride's home, they they were pretty pretty dignified. But of course, I guess the especially as I say if they had a can of champagne. Of course, some of the boys would slip have a flask in their hip pocket. But they it didn't get out of hand. Everyone
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear of a shivaree or a serenade?
556:  Shivaree.
Interviewer:  Shivaree.
556:  Shivaree.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Oh yeah. They had shivarees.
Interviewer:  Uh now what was on at a shivaree?
556:  Well, generally some Uh uh. Quartet would go around singing over town and maybe have a mandolin, a banjo, or so. They'd go to a house. Generally it wasn't even looking for 'em. They'd drop in, you know, and start the music. Just a little party just
Interviewer:  How rowdy uh
556:  #1 Oh #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
556:  Nothing rowdy. Call 'em another name for 'em was storm parties.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  It wasn't there wasn't supposed to know they were coming. But generally they did. They called 'em storm parties. And the would storm 'em with the quartet and the orchestra or whatever musical instruments they had, and And
Interviewer:  That's interesting, and in some sections they got to be very rowdy.
556:  #1 Well #
Interviewer:  #2 All kinds of #
556:  #1 As I say, it all depended altogether on whose house it was. And had you come in my father's house started a thing this rowdy #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  Would've got thrown head over heels of the house.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I had a good-looking sister and they {NW} They were very decorous around there because he was a big double-jointed man and they I guess they dared not get rowdy with him because they didn't know what'd happened to 'em. When they got thrown out on the air.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. When uh the wife became pregnant, what was the word that they'd
556:  #1 Oh. #
Interviewer:  #2 use {NS} #
556:  Boy, she never showed her face out of the door for months.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. How would they re how would people refer
556:  #1 They'd tell they'd tell you she's not going out. #
Interviewer:  #2 to her? I hear that she's # She's not going out?
556:  They use that word. She's not, you know, she's not going out.
Interviewer:  #1 She's not #
556:  #2 That meant she's pregnant, see? Yeah. Not going out. # That that meant she was pregnant.
Interviewer:  And uh.
556:  And uh and as most of 'em said in a family way.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  There in a family way course the that uh the class would say she's not going out, but others would say she's in a family way.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Especially the colors they use out on the they still use it the
Interviewer:  And if uh she had a an older woman attend to her while she's
556:  Well, they had midwives or and course after after a number of years of midwives they got they were put under the jurisdiction of the state health department. They they uh were very strict on it. They had meetings and they uh. They informed them what to do, you know. All kinds of things. They didn't some registered nurse would talk to them and They have a license.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And it was just hit or miss back for years, but uh they formally they got 'em into uh groups and would uh some rested nurse, some state nurse would talk to 'em, and unless they they uh they weren't gonna let ya unless you were doing and you were gonna do it properly.
Interviewer:  Did they every use the word granny?
556:  Oh yeah. Yeah. Granny. Granny woman.
Interviewer:  Granny woman?
556:  Yeah, she's granny woman. That was used.
Interviewer:  #1 And on both plates in {X} #
556:  #2 Yeah, that was uninstructed midwifes. Right before they some kind of regulation on 'em. Yeah, they were granny women. #
Interviewer:  {D: And did they uh did a woman uh fetch a grace rear?} What the children
556:  As I heard it a fellow say once he was jerked up. {NW} He wasn't raised; he was jerked up.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And they had They had different classes of babies. They had lap babies, knee babies, yard babies, dirt babies.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Yard babies he'd looking around the yard, you know. Lap babies, you couldn't put him down and the floor baby would crawl around the floor. Yard baby go out in the yard.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh did you remember people uh calling their children kids?
556:  Oh chaps.
Interviewer:  #1 Chaps. #
556:  #2 Kids, yep. # They still use that word chap down here in the country right now. I heard a fellow say the other day he got an Indian family living on his place And said they didn't have a heating house. Says yes, sweetheart, what about your chaps? Don't they get cold?
Interviewer:  #1 Mm-hmm. #
556:  #2 Being children. Called them chaps. #
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh the word pacile?
556:  Pacile. That means a whole lot. Pacile of a thing. That means a heap of 'em. Pacile.
Interviewer:  You would name a child what uh after for or if a child was named for a he had the same name as his father, you say you named the child
556:  After his daddy. He'd be a junior.
Interviewer:  And uh. The child is illegitimate, what was a polite word
556:  He's a woods colt.
Interviewer:  Woods colt. Uh-huh.
556:  He's a woods colt. Uh oh boy.
Interviewer:  And uh the uh child without parents? With both parents dead.
556:  Well, course I guess I don't know if I have a name except for orphan. Orphan, you know.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  All that I know about that one.
Interviewer:  And did uh the court appoint someone to look after
556:  Well unless unless yeah well unless he was formally adopted. Of course a lot of well I tell you the way the niggers they just give their children away. Did you know my grandmother and grandfather owned the Harvey House there? This this woman had a whole flock of she did my grandfather, too. Two children. Just take care of them. She couldn't take care of them and course they just became a little boy and girl. Brothers and sisters. She just gave 'em to 'em. Says I can't take care of all these children. And they lived with 'em till they were grown.
Interviewer:  Mm. Mm. They um
556:  They trained 'em, you know, to do various things. They train the girl to be a good cook and a laundress and the boy the grandfather took him and he got to go he was one of the best farmhands on the place. Expert at plowing and handling horses and mules. Riding. He was a wonderful rider.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  He and I one night I thought it was about the smartest thing in the world. So one night we had a tent and we went over and camped out one night way out in the back of the pasture. A beautiful moonlight night and He woke up about midnight and called me said let's take a ride. I said what we gonna ride on? There's plenty of horses out there in the field. I said what we haven't got a bridle. Said we don't need a bridle saddle, so I got a rope. We went out and caught two of those horses and tied the shorter rope around their lower jaw. {NW} I'll never forget what a fool thing we did. We got on those horses, and we galloped across the fields.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Went by a house, and I remember a clothes line got caught and flipped me off the horse. But of all fool things, me and that nigger would jump and got those two horses and we just went flying. Bare back. Nothing but a rope. You can keep a control of a horse with just a rope. Sort of loop around its lower jaw. Just a short rope.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Fool thing we did.
Interviewer:  Um. To put a baby in something {NW} to uh take it out on something on wheels, what was that called and what was the act uh
556:  Well, of course there were go carts and baby carriages and And there were perambulator. We never heard of that one.
Interviewer:  What about later?
556:  They were called go carts. Now how they got that name, I don't know.
Interviewer:  What did uh you do? Put the baby in the baby carriage and what would you do? Take him out?
556:  Take him out of
Interviewer:  Uh. You wheel a baby or ride rolling?
556:  We'd take him out yeah you could wheel him around the block or uh round the road.
Interviewer:  You never heard anyone say roll a baby?
556:  Yeah. I did. They rolled him, wheeled him. Yeah, I've heard that used.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. {NS} And different parts of the body uh here this part. Any distinctive name?
556:  We used to call it the goozle.
Interviewer:  #1 Oh. #
556:  #2 {NW} # You ever hear that word?
Interviewer:  Uh. I'm not sure what it means. I have heard it, but I'm not sure.
556:  Adam's apple.
Interviewer:  It is the Adam's apple.
556:  Yeah, the same as Adam's apple.
Interviewer:  I see, and this part uh above the
556:  Well, you know when they said forehead, we thought they were kinda didn't know what they're talking about. Forehead, you know. A lot of older people called it forehead. And I guess they still do.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I"ll bet it's used right now. Forehead. That's a good word.
Interviewer:  Other than brow.
556:  Yeah, brow or forehead. I guess that's a good word. Forehead. It is the front of your head.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. This part of a man
556:  That was a chest. {NW}
Interviewer:  And uh the part that the the teeth go down in.
556:  That's the jawbone.
Interviewer:  And and the flesh above the bone.
556:  Oh when it hung down I've heard it called a waddles. #1 {NS} Like on a turkey {NS} #
Interviewer:  #2 I see. # And the on a man is this pink flesh
556:  #1 Uh gums. #
Interviewer:  #2 Cheek, tooth. # Uh-huh.
556:  And they always said if a blue-gummed nigger bites you, he'll kill you. {NW} We got blue-gummed nigger. You know, if you if you ever read uh William what's that book that guy wrote about William William didn't tell. They got a cook called aunt blue-gum tempy. {NW} Cook was named blue-gum tempy cause he had blue gums. Named blue-gum tempy. If a blue-gummed nigger ever bites you for they'll kill you. {NW} And I think they're right to believe that.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  The blue-gum tempy.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. This part uh
556:  That's the palm of your hand.
Interviewer:  And uh a boy would raise one
556:  That's his fist.
Interviewer:  And two
556:  Hmm?
Interviewer:  And he'd raise one fist or two
556:  Well well that was just that's just your fist.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Think did you ever hear uh anyone say two fistus?
556:  #1 Oh yeah. Theys they'd alway refer to a powerful #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
556:  Powerful man would alway call he's a two-fisted man. He was a powerful big strap. Never heard it called something of a little fellow. It was always a big man.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Them two-fisted fellow.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh this part uh where you don't wanna get kicked?
556:  That's your shin bone.
Interviewer:  Shin. Would you ever hear anyone say that that was your uh shank?
556:  Oh yeah. Yeah, that was
Interviewer:  Is that the shank?
556:  Very common expression. The shank.
Interviewer:  From the
556:  I always thought the shank meant the back back of your leg.
Interviewer:  Between the knee and
556:  Yeah, right between the knee and the ankle.
Interviewer:  I see, and uh How about the the entire leg for uh was there a blank name for that?
556:  Hmm. I heard 'em referred to as your pins.
Interviewer:  Your pins?
556:  Underpinning.
Interviewer:  Would uh would you remember anyone saying limb for that as a more delicate term?
556:  Well, maybe the educated ladies said it, but we never used the word limb.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  If I'd have said it, I right right right
Interviewer:  There was no embarrassment, but uh
556:  #1 No, you're leg. #
Interviewer:  #2 Talk uh # Could either man or woman uh
556:  No, not that I that I ever heard of.
Interviewer:  And if uh someone been well and suddenly uh became ill, you say I heard that she suddenly what sick? #1 {NW} #
556:  #2 Well, yeah. #
Interviewer:  Suddenly uh took sick or was took sick.
556:  Well, the illiterate ones say taken sick. Taken sick or in fact, the niggers still say that use that word taken sick.
Interviewer:  Mm. #1 Taken down? #
556:  #2 Or taken down. They use the words taken down. He's taken down. He's tooken # He's took down with pneumonia or took down with smallpox, as the case may be.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Down with something. They always use that expression. He's down with it.
Interviewer:  Do you uh remember some old uh responses to the familiar question how are you?
556:  Oh gosh.
Interviewer:  Uh uh any interesting uh
556:  {NW} One one expression used to use they'd say I heard my grandfather use it. How you feeling, doctor? He said I'm on a mighty low limb. They used that expression. I'm roosting on a mighty low limb today.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  #1 That meant he was kinda down. Roosting on a mighty low limb. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} That's a wonderful expression. Uh-huh. # Uh, anybody say middling?
556:  Oh, I just middling. Middling fair. You know, you get grade cotton. You know, the different grades of cotton. And middling cotton is uh just average.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  #1 And you say I'm just middling and that meant you were just average, see? #
Interviewer:  #2 Just average. # I see.
556:  Like the graded cotton, middling cotton is just uh probably the average cotton.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Oh, I'm middling he'd say. Oh, I'm middling fair or Pert as a cat bird.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Different expressions like that.
Interviewer:  Uh, I like that uh Mighty low limb.
556:  Yeah, roosting on a mighty low I heard my grandfather say it many times. Oh, I'm roosting on a mighty low limb today.
Interviewer:  I think I'm gonna use that from time to time.
556:  #1 And the word pert. I'm very pert. You very pert today? Oh yeah, I'm pert. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Uh-huh.
556:  Very pert.
Interviewer:  By the way, if a young girl were uh very lively, what would they call her? That'd be pert or?
556:  She would be pert, yes sir.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Very pert.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That's right.
Interviewer:  That's a tiny squirrel over there.
556:  #1 There's a lot of #
Interviewer:  #2 Baby #
556:  Got a lot of 'em around here.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Yeah, she was this was just as pert as she could be.
Interviewer:  And uh if you have a
556:  A other uppity was another one they used. Uppity.
Interviewer:  Now how was that used? Uh.
556:  If anybody got a little high, you know, and kind of lorded over somebody, she's getting mighty uppity.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  She's thinks she somebody. Went off to college and come back now here she's all uppity. Thinks she's smarter than we are. Uppity.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That was quite a common word back in the old days. Uppity. You never hear it anymore, but I heard that word used a many a time.
Interviewer:  And if you had a deep cut, the uh and it became infected and you had this kind of uh raised up area around it, what would that be called?
556:  Well, I it used to get what they'd call proud flesh in a wound.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  And all we had an old woman out here was a practical nurse, and she was always telling me about proud flesh and I never found out what exactly she was talking about.
Interviewer:  What'd she call it?
556:  Proud flesh she'd say in a wound. I guess that was
Interviewer:  That's good. Was did she happen to be colored?
556:  #1 No, she was white. Old Irish woman. #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh. Uh-huh. # A um colored man said well that's hard fresh.
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  Uh he {X} Transposed the R and the L uh.
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  I been wondering if you ever heard
556:  No, I never heard that one.
Interviewer:  {NS} And uh did you use something to paint scratches uh as a child when you were young or
556:  There well what we used mostly was turpentine.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  They had no I that I never heard of iodine. We used tur- eh turpentine was in there you cut yourself with anything, hurt yourself, you put turpentine on it right away.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  I used to I've cut my foot and I've cut my hand And this old same old woman this same old Irish woman would get uh She'd get cobwebs out of the chimney with soot on it and put on it and wrap around it.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  It worked alright, too. It always got well.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  But we uh turpentine was our standard remedy for everything.
Interviewer:  And if a pimple uh got very large and very sore,
556:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  That'd be a
556:  You mean a boil or we called 'em risings.
Interviewer:  Risings.
556:  Rise, that was a rising.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And inside the um Boil Was the core and uh the material in there around the core was would be all
556:  Pus.
Interviewer:  Pus.
556:  Mm-hmm. Yeah, you get your core. I had 'em a many one boil. I got the scar there right now. Had a dirty one right there.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  {X} But you gotta get the core out he would try to
Interviewer:  Uh. And uh in a blister, what would be the material in a blister?
556:  They usually used to some doctors used to blister people. You know that?
Interviewer:  No, I didn't.
556:  Yeah, they blister 'em. Blister blister their chest. Terrible blisters. They used some sort of mustard plasters on 'em.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  Uh, and these mustard plasters would raise a terrific blister. I know I saw a first cousin of mine blistered once with 'em. Golly. I don't know what they thought it would do just like they used to bleed 'em. Fact, that's what killed George Washington. Bled him four times in one day, and all he had was a little cold.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Did uh you ever hear that the material inside a blister called uh water or humor?
556:  Or the water is called water blisters. They called 'em water blisters.
Interviewer:  And the old name for arthritis was?
556:  Oh gosh. They didn't know what arthritis was. It was all rheumatism in those days. Any pain you had in the world you had was rheumatism.
Interviewer:  How would people was describe the part of the body where they get rheumatism? Would they say my my
556:  Joints.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Or joints. I got rheumatism in my joints. Joints.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. You mentioned the whooping cough. Did uh youngsters have much of that uh very sore throat like going
556:  Well, I had uh a one of my grandfather's other children died of diphtheria.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Yeah, they had diphtheria. One of 'em choked to death on a butter bean. My grandfather had nine children. The first four died before they were twelve years old. Whooping cough, diphtheria, one of 'em choked to death on a butter bean. I've forgotten what the other one had, but
Interviewer:  And how about uh some ailment that would make your skin turn yellow? Uh, the eyes yellow.
556:  Oh, that was yellow jaundice.
Interviewer:  Jaundice? Uh-huh.
556:  Yellow jaundice, yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Yellow jaundice.
Interviewer:  And uh if somebody ate something {NW} didn't agree with him, you'd say, well, he got sick where?
556:  Uh. You know, they they they didn't know what food poison by by the way back in those days, they felt you could get tin poisoning. If you opened the can, you had to get it our right quick, you'd have tin poisoning. Course it's ridiculous now. But my mother used to open a can of salmon. Get it out quick. You'll have tin poison. {NS} She'd have been horrified today if she could see us get a can of salmon hash and put it in the refrigerator and leave it in the can. They had the idea the tin would poison you. Course it didn't. The food
Interviewer:  #1 Hmm. #
556:  #2 spoiled and you had food poisoning. #
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  #1 But they thought it was the tin that caused it. #
Interviewer:  #2 Tin caused it. #
556:  #1 #
Interviewer:  #2 # Mm-hmm.
556:  It's not a tin can at all. It was steel cans, maybe it had a skim of tin on it, but they had the idea that this tin poison was deadly stuff.
Interviewer:  If they got food poisoning, they would get sick.
556:  Oh, they had the belly ache then. Bad.
Interviewer:  Would they get sick on the stomach or to the stomach?
556:  Well, they they they'd say sick at the stomach. Or sicks to some of 'em would say sicks to sick to the stomach.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh
556:  Sick of the stomach.
Interviewer:  If they would bring food up this uh what was a serious word and what was a joking word for that?
556:  Well, the serious word was regurgitate, I suppose. And they would say everything you eat comes back.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  In fact, I was talking to a fellow with that sure do that right now His wife told me the other day she says I just can't make him go see a doctor says everything he eats comes right back. So
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I guess that meant regurgitate the food.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Um. The uh different uh references to colds uh uh suppose you lost your voice, you'd say he's mighty Um. He lost his voice. How'd he talk?
556:  Yeah, I got that got that way myself once.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Uh. Mm.
Interviewer:  After you lose your voice, what would you call it?
556:  Trying to think.
Interviewer:  {X} Common term is probably hoarse, but uh I was wondering
556:  I know they were hoarse, but hoarseness is not the same thing as losing your voice.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  You got hoarse, your voice got raspy, you know, and
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Of course, they used the word hoarse a whole lot. {NS}
Interviewer:  And would he uh catch a cold or took cold or?
556:  You take a cold, yeah. Take a cold. That you
Interviewer:  Then you'd get a something in your chests {NS} Any words for For a cough a cough uh
556:  Well, you have a chest you have a chest cold.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  And a rasping cough.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Well, they used to call it a cough. A rasping cough.
Interviewer:  And if you were throat was so sore, you could hardly take medicine, you say you can hardly
556:  Hardly swallow.
Interviewer:  {X} swallow.
556:  My grandfather used to say He was a doctor he'd say as long as you got a moving pain, don't worry about it. Said as long as it moves, don't worry. Says if it stops, then you got to worry.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  The lower your pain moves, there won't be
Interviewer:  Uh. And what would they give for malaria?
556:  The quinine. Uh he he had saddle bags on his car on his horse, I mean. You know behind the little bottles were stuck in a kit leather case. He sold leather cases and give my If I just knew what came of it. But his {X} Quinine, cast oil, and a tonic he prepared himself. But Everybody had to take a course of calomel. Horrible stuff. But there in the spring yard they had a good course of calomel. Course and for fever, quinine was about all they had.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Me and one of 'em I used to fill the cap stools right. We'd pour we bought the quinine in bulk and would pour it out on a marble slab and take the little cap stools. You seen cap stools. Put 'em in a little round box.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  That was a sovereign remedy for a fever. Any kind of fever. Quinine. We
Interviewer:  That'd break the fever by making you what? Uh Would you say he sweated hard or he sweat hard? Or
556:  Yeah well yeah I would sweat the fever out. Now, we went to see a colored family one day and I'm sure it's time for a fever. And they had him on the bed packed in green peach tree leaves. They had gone out and gathered and it was cover the mattress with these leaves and covered him with leaves. He was such burning fever and by the way, back in those days, they never called a doctor till they were practically dead. So we drove about ten miles over to the place and they had him packed in peach tree leaves, and I'm sure it was {X} But I ask him I said grandpa, what good in Well, he said well It cooled his body off. It might have helped him. That it uh He was hot and burning up and it cooled him off with these leaves.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
556:  Yeah, and he'd give him a good dose of quinine and {NW} it would generally break the fever.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Course a lot of times it didn't.
Interviewer:  Uh, you mentioned uh the negro term pass. Uh, what would be the more general term the white man would use?
556:  Well, they say died.
Interviewer:  He died.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Even though he'd widowed? I'm sorry, John.
556:  Passed away.
Interviewer:  Passed away.
556:  But the niggers left that away off. They just said he just passed.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  They didn't put the away on it at all.
Interviewer:  And any uh joking or crude terms for dying uh {NW}
556:  Well, yeah. I remember one. They used to say turned up his toes.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Still?
556:  Turned up his toes.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  I remember that one.
Interviewer:  And what was the box they put them in? Uh.
556:  That was a coffin.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And did they put the coffin in something in the grave or was it just? {X}
556:  Well, it generally well the cheap ones were just a caught and they put it in just in a pine box. It went inside a box, a pine box.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And the top was screwed down on it.
Interviewer:  And uh {NW} someone died, say what is the matter? You say well I don't know what he died.
556:  {NW} Died of or with even.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Or what killed him.
Interviewer:  And uh if his widow wore black, she was showing
556:  She was in mourning. And they always wore black.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  In fact, all white people yeah put on black immediately. Now they they were weren't {D: Indian}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Well, they they didn't some black clothes, get 'em right quick.
Interviewer:  And the ceremony would be called uh
556:  Well, they they used to have a wake, you know. They'd sit up with 'em all night did it before the days of funeral homes. You know, some of the neighbors come and sit up all night with 'em with the dead person. Done do many night.
Interviewer:  Well, was the ceremony ever ever called a burying?
556:  Well, yeah. It was called a burying and and right the day the colored people called preaching the funeral. And it may be a month after the man died. Or three weeks. It don't make any difference. They gonna bury him, you see?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And then they preach his funeral. I talked to a colored friend of mine who went to one out in the country and said I believe he said they had six it was very prominent that they had six or eight preachers out there. And I said well what'd they talk about? He said I don't know. Said I went to sleep before the first one got through and said I don't know what he talked about. He said there's so many and they took so long, said I slept through most of it. Said he went to sleep. And they had six or eight and they all had to get up and talk about him. And he went to sleep. He didn't know nothing about what they said when he woke up he said they were about through about two or three hours later. {NW} That was called preaching the funeral.
Interviewer:  Oh.
556:  And maybe only met him once. See?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  And but they have a big day of preach the funeral.
Interviewer:  And the place where he was buried
556:  #1 That's the graveyard. #
Interviewer:  #2 the old days # Graveyard. Now, a cemetery's pretty much replaced that.
556:  Yeah, a cemetery now sometimes it was called a bone yard.
Interviewer:  Oh, is that right?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  That would be a kind of joke, wouldn't it?
556:  Yeah, that's yeah that meant it was a graveyard, but I heard it referred to as the bone yard.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Took him to the bone yard.
Interviewer:  Different ways of of commenting on characteristics of people a young man who's very muscular, uh you say well he's
556:  Strapping.
Interviewer:  Strapping?
556:  Yeah, he's a strapping fellow.
Interviewer:  And somebody who worked very hard. Very tired. Say I'm all
556:  Tuckered out.
Interviewer:  And uh somebody who's been ill uh and first time you see him out, you say well he's out, but he looks mighty
556:  Oh yeah. Yeah, what is the word they use that looks mighty Well, they use the word weak or shaky or spindly or different expressions.
Interviewer:  Like peakered do you ever hear
556:  Peakered. Yeah, they use the word peakered if he's pale.
Interviewer:  Uh {NW}
556:  Peakered.
Interviewer:  #1 And if a #
556:  #2 Shaky #
Interviewer:  teenage boy is growing so fast uh
556:  He's feeling his oats.
Interviewer:  I see. And if he's sort of awkward, you'd say he's awfully
556:  #1 Yeah. Bumblefooted. #
Interviewer:  #2 He's awfully what he's what but he'll grow out of it # I'm sorry I
556:  Bumblefooted.
Interviewer:  Uh, bumblefooted?
556:  Yeah, bumblefooted. He's awkward, he falls over everything with his feet.
Interviewer:  And you mentioned the word pert. Uh
556:  Pert.
Interviewer:  #1 If an old person gets around very well, you say for his age, he's mighty #
556:  #2 Yeah. # Yeah, mighty pert. Eh pert.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. It'd be the same thing. Somebody who's uh very likable uh
556:  #1 Well, he's a hail hail fellow well met. #
Interviewer:  #2 What's his position? # But on the other hand, if he's difficult to reason with, he's
556:  Well, I've heard them say he often is a jackass.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh, you ever hear pig-headed? Uh
556:  Oh yeah. Pig-headed. I've heard that plenty. They still use that.
Interviewer:  Mule-headed?
556:  Pig-headed.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Mule-headed. Yeah, they still use pig-headed all the time. Still use that.
Interviewer:  Would they ever call him bunctious?
556:  Yeah, if he got too streperous. Same word as obstreperous.
Interviewer:  #1 It is. Was bunctious is that a bad sort of? #
556:  #2 {X} # #1 Oh, that's not as not at all you say some fellow is just obstreperous or uh bunctious. #
Interviewer:  #2 Is that a {X} characteristic? # Uh-huh.
556:  Same thing.
Interviewer:  And uh if he's pretty short-tempered {NW} either man or woman is very easily hurt, he's gotta better be careful with him because he is awful awfully
556:  Touchy.
Interviewer:  Touchy?
556:  Touchy or got to be handled with kid glove like a fellow told me once this fellow has to be handled with kid gloves. He was touchy.
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear touchous?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {X} Is that the same?
556:  Touchous same as touchy. He's touchy, very touchy. You mustn't say these things to him. He's so touchy, see?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  He'll get offended.
Interviewer:  And if he gets more than offended, then he might get
556:  #1 He get he gets mad then. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Uh-huh. And you might say to him alright just I was joking just keep
556:  Well, you keep And now they say keep your cool, but we just we had had never heard of that expression and we didn't we just said then keep your shirt on.
Interviewer:  #1 Keep your shirt on. Keep calm. #
556:  #2 Yeah, yeah. # Keep your shirt on. That meant calm down. Keep your shirt on. {NW}
Interviewer:  And if uh if a woman uh didn't keep house very well,
556:  #1 Mm. #
Interviewer:  #2 Or if # the man left money around uh lost it say they're awfully
556:  Well, they were awfully careless. They uh
Interviewer:  Uh what what other word do you use for that?
556:  Of course a bad housekeeper was just about the worst thing they could be uh were bad housekeepers. You didn't keep a good house, didn't keep the beds made up or the dishes washed.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Oh boy. She got talked about.
Interviewer:  I see. The uh do people ever {NW} you were hesitant to say uh hesitant to call anybody or say even somebody else uh he's a fool with that fool Uh what about the word queer? Is that uh
556:  {NW} Well, queer, you know, was two different ways, you know. Now, they the queer the way we speak of a queer, you know what they're talking about. {NW} But back in those days, the if anybody was queer they were just it was peculiar, see? Just a peculiar person.
Interviewer:  How disagreeable a term was that? Uh, were there
556:  #1 It wasn't especially disagreeable. It just meant that they had #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
556:  They were different from you.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  #1 Anybody that was different from you was considered queer or peculiar. They didn't look a thing like you did or I, that's a queer person. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # I see.
556:  I believe so-and-so and he's uh he believes the opposite, so he he's queer person.
Interviewer:  So it really wasn't a serious
556:  No, it wasn't serious.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Back in those days.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. And uh uh if somebody was anxious, you say well she's always she always seems to be so very 'un- Uh would you say uneasy or Or
556:  Well, like I heard a nigger say once that he tried to write but it was such uneasy business he never couldn't do it.
Interviewer:  Uneasy.
556:  It's uneasy, he said. It was uneasy business. {X}
Interviewer:  In other words, business that uh
556:  Kinda questionable {X}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  Uh he said it was uneasy business. Trying to write, he said.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  {NW} Uneasy.
Interviewer:  The um the um different parts of the church service um um the uh music, sermon, any recollections about that in the old days? How long would they preach? Was it called a service? I mean
556:  Well, yeah it was called a sermon and the old some of those old preachers would put them on and you know I used to suffer through them when I was a kid and
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  So a preacher went on, and I despised him when he got up and said firstly and then I knew there was a secondly coming and a thirdly and and a fourthly. Oh lord. A fellow told me the other day. He said now {D: this you know this Cary College down here} And he spoke at this college. He was he had gone to school at Cary College, took up each one of the letters. C for courage and on down. He took about an hour and a half to get through Cary. Said he walked down the hall and had a fellow on his knees praying. Says son, what you praying for? Said I'm just thanking the lord you didn't go to the University of Southern Mississippi.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
556:  #2 We would've been here all night. # {NW} C for courage, A for attitude R for righteousness, and each one would take about thirty minutes. Thanking the lord he didn't go to the University of Southern Mississippi. {NW}
Interviewer:  You take care.
556:  Will this will this interfere with that?
Interviewer:  I don't think so. Uh I can I can uh
556:  #1 I can see. We can get a little clip. #
Interviewer:  #2 Clean it up #
556:  #1 #
Interviewer:  #2 #
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear that uh {D: clock towers} used X?
556:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Oh yeah, black-eyed peas.
Interviewer:  New Years.
556:  Yeah, you'd take a last New Years away down at Whiteman's Cafe in Richmond they brought us a side bowl of {X} black-eyed peas. Without ordering it. They serve it every New Years.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And many of the cafes do that. Without ordering. Supposed to be good luck.
Interviewer:  I see. We talked about uh about the uh use of of uh of pictures that either away a professor when you went to college. Still uh walked past a graveyard uh were the we used the word candid, right? Haints.
556:  Haints.
Interviewer:  Haints and uh haunts.
556:  Haints and never say haunted. It hainted.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh this and haints used agents agents of the devil.
556:  No, no. That's no. A haint is merely the de- the spirit of the departed person. Say you're hainted. That don't mean no. #1 It just means #
Interviewer:  #2 I don't think it # {NW} necessarily evil.
556:  No, no. Haint's good folks. Depending how good the man was before he died.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  I've heard it many one say if you don't do so-and-so, I'm gonna haint you.
Interviewer:  I see. {X}
556:  Gonna haint you if you don't behave. {NS}
Interviewer:  Did the uh {NW} a person refer to uh what they would use for devil?
556:  Hoo doo. You know, the voodoo.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  I never heard it called hoo doo. They called it hoo doo. {NS} Oh yeah. They
Interviewer:  What would uh you say to a child? You better be good, or
556:  Better be good. Uh. Well, they generally had somebody that was that passed away that was rather evil. I know this nigger boy I tell you my grandfather the man that formerly owned his house was a man named Smith. Old man Smith. {NS} And he was always telling him you don't look out, old man Smith's gonna get you.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  See him upstairs. {D: I tell you by the second third it was handy.} Old man Smith's up there. If you don't watch out, old man Smith's gonna get you. {D: Either of us could've put a rough tack.}
Interviewer:  The uh ever seen the {D: boogey man} or?
556:  Mm-hmm. Boogey bear. That was a favorite term to the kids. Boogey bear. Boogey bear'll get you.
Interviewer:  They talked about a force of evil in the church. What was how did they refer to in church. It'd be God versus
556:  Well, they used to refer to him as Satan, the Devil, and the lower regions, and so on. {NS}
Interviewer:  A trip to uh town was see might go to uh they call places for books uh. Names or that special word?
556:  For what?
Interviewer:  A place where they can check out books or read uh
556:  There's no such place.
Interviewer:  There wasn't? Well, I looked around today. Is there a library?
556:  Oh yeah. Fine library now. No such, no such thing in my day.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  You bought your books you wanted.
Interviewer:  And uh how about the railroad station? Uh is it known as uh right to be a train or?
556:  Depot.
Interviewer:  {D: That's a de-?}
556:  Yeah. Depot. Was quite a place in its day. We used to have a one time we had six passenger trains nearly everyday. And numerous freight trains. Course, back in those days a freight train wasn't so many cars. Now they put on just as many units as they want to. I saw a train a freight train coming the other day must've been two miles long. Had on five units. Each one of them was twenty-five hundred horsepower. And one one engineer had synchronized his throttle, so he could control all those engines with one throttle.
Interviewer:  Break that up, you get plenty
556:  Oh.
Interviewer:  Smoother.
556:  Well, you you'd see the old locomotive you take a sixty-car train with a steam engine, that was a pretty good train. And eighty cars were exceptional. That felt uh crowded. P-E-C crowded. Pull eighty cars crowded. Frame was called the rain road then But eighty cars, you never saw unless they were empty.
Interviewer:  The uh if you have uh a town of hotels X
556:  Yes, we had a always had a good hotel until it burned about two or three years ago. Had a fine hotel and cafe. It burned.
Interviewer:  {D: A place where your tailored coat uh.}
556:  That was a lyceum.
Interviewer:  Lyceum?
556:  Yeah, and they had one here. It built back well I remember the first show. The first traveling shows in the old lyceum. I remember my grandfather taking me in there. I couldn't have been over five years old. The lyceum. And by the way, that that that cut in that word lyceum was cut into marble. It stayed there. They tore that old building down. The post office is there now. That was where the lyceum stood. And they had many traveling traveling shows and musicals before the days of the movies course the movie knocked all that out of business.
Interviewer:  Can you talk about going to the theater or what or how was uh
556:  Going to the show.
Interviewer:  Going to the show?
556:  Yeah. It was in a theater, but this was called a lyceum.
Interviewer:  Lyceum. And if somebody had to carry something, it was very heavy. It was so heavy, you could hardly
556:  Lug it, tote it, pack it.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  Different terms for
Interviewer:  A person who sold something uh for less he paid for it so well it's it's real cheap, the person who's selling it had a
556:  What is that? A discount.
Interviewer:  Or a loss.
556:  Loss, yeah.
Interviewer:  Or on the other hand, if if the price was too high, somebody might say no I can't it it's uh
556:  Out of my reach.
Interviewer:  Out of your reach.
556:  Yeah, out of my reach. They're reaching too high.
Interviewer:  First day of the month, the bill would be
556:  Due.
Interviewer:  Uh and you paid the bill would you give uh give any merchant to somebody if somebody paid a large bill.
556:  Oh yeah. Yeah. Lagniappe
Interviewer:  Is that right?
556:  Uh lagniappe.
Interviewer:  And to one of those difficult things to {D: whistle} Uh that true? I don't believe I ever People remember but they can't remember the term.
556:  Lagniappe for sure. It's a lagniappe. Lagniappe uh that's very uh when you Well, I know at events, the niggers all the always they bought something, they they wanted lagniappe had to give 'em give 'em something.
Interviewer:  Would they use that word?
556:  Well, they didn't not possibly not, but they'd always hold out their hand you know just yeah they knew the system alright. They'd buy something, you'd have to buy them a stick of candy or a cookie or something, you know. But lagniappe was they expected a lagniappe go ahead and trade five hundred dollars a man paid it by give it past due I remember the first set of clothes I ever bought, you know. Back in my day, putting on long pants was quite an event in a boy's life. So I decided one day after school ended in June that I was gonna put on long pants in September. So I worked the whole summer trotting down to this clothing store decided the night and gave the fellow two or three dollars. And finally one day he said well you've got enough now for your suit. Don't know what I paid him for it. So I went down to get the suit, and he got the suit and he threw in a shirt, a neck tie, and a pair of socks. Lagniappe. But the socks was only ten cents a pair then. And the shirt was fifty cents. And the tie was a quarter, so. Wasn't so much a lagniappe.
Interviewer:  {X} if you bring {X} if you bring somebody whoever it be, {X} if a sister {X} his grandfather had something his grandfather used to give. It was a very handsome uh piece uh with his merchant's name {X}
556:  Yeah. Well they had they had things like that that's I have something down at the museum now. A hardware merchant gave her a little bank in the shape of a pig. Piggy bank. Pay your bill, he'd give you a piggy bank. Different things like that. You, just little things.
Interviewer:  You ever hear that uh called {X}
556:  No.
Interviewer:  {X} delighted to uh that was a custom and it was widely uh widely
556:  Pretty widely used. Uh this is uh Up until a few years ago there's the man had a store had a store sign in front of his store and he'd say each time you'd pay your bill, he'd uh draw you a Coca Cola lagniappe. Always gives you free but no matter what the bill was. Two dollars, three dollars, or fifty dollars you'd always have a Coca Cola. Do it in a glass, you know.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. You said that yesterday that a customer's still uh
556:  No, it's the beautiful old customers died about died out now.
Interviewer:  Uh, if you didn't have money, you'd go to somebody and try to
556:  Try to get credit.
Interviewer:  Credit uh
556:  Trust me till so-and-so.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. If they used the term borrow, how would they say it?
556:  Borrow.
Interviewer:  Loan, uh.
556:  Loan. Uh take a loan. Loan it to so-and-so. Want to borrow so much.
Interviewer:  And if you asked somebody for money, they say no, I'm sorry, money today is so
556:  Money is scarce. Hard to get. Money is scarce or tight. Money is tight. I heard 'em use that word. Money is tight.
Interviewer:  Was tight. If somebody uh had money but he was uh reluctant to ever uh give it away, he was known as a
556:  As a miser. Or stingy or words to that effect.
Interviewer:  Tight wad.
556:  Tight wad. That was a good word. Yeah, I told you about the old man around the church up there. Uh, near the church. We called his still grab-all because he grabbed everything he could get. Grab-all.
Interviewer:  Go ahead and on the table uh how would people talk X church or the whole community?
556:  Finally the whole thing got to being known as grab-all. Fact, in fact I didn't the the right name of the church was Bethesda. But that place was known as grab-all the whole time I was growing up. Where are you going to church next Sunday? Going to grab-all.
Interviewer:  It became known in the community.
556:  The story long since these exist burned down and the that old man was gone, but they still called it grab-all. Fact, they still do. Still referred by some of the people. It's still called grab-all. Like they say country settlement it's the proper name is Prairie Point, but everybody calls it Ho Guy.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Well, it how it got the name, I don't know. But it's Ho Guy. {NW}
Interviewer:  And uh the if if you uh a woman wore a dress and you were raised in X, that'd be paired or take home.
556:  They wrapped it in in uh paper. With string around it. Just lay it on the counter, fold it up, tear a piece of paper off the roll and rip it off. Put a string around it.
Interviewer:  And uh the term fetch and kempt and by and X those you'd say a fetch be
556:  Yeah, still use it. My daddy always hauled his he'd ever kill a bird, he'd haul it to his dog and say fetch! That dog knew what he meant. Say fetch, the dog'd go pick up the dead bird and bring it.
Interviewer:  Would go to the name, place, offer to go fetch it.
556:  Oh yeah, he'd fetch it. Yeah, that's it's it's still used.
Interviewer:  Still uh.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {D: Saw him The uh the place where the X}
556:  I was gonna say the niggers use another word fotch.
Interviewer:  Fotch.
556:  He fotch it to me.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. That
556:  Fetch. Past-tense of fetch, fotch.
Interviewer:  Oh, I see.
556:  He fotch it. Yeah, that he still use that all the time. Fotch.
Interviewer:  Fotch.
556:  Fotch. Uh yeah. He fotch it to me.
Interviewer:  And uh did the {X} elements in those days {X}?
556:  There was a county seat.
Interviewer:  County seat. Always?
556:  Yeah, always a county seat. Not sight. Move the seat.
Interviewer:  People uh talk about X day were those words used X ten speech somebody said it, used that phrase.
556:  Well they they were put into law-abiding towns. Uh but law and order I course the lawyers used that term. I heard many lawyers use that term law and order. They referred to it all the time, law and order.
Interviewer:  When {NW} man was executed, uh a noose was used.
556:  He was hung.
Interviewer:  How, uh?
556:  Uh, it's yeah.
Interviewer:  And
556:  For anything. There was a colored man out here on Mr. Sam {B} crazy killed his wife. In fact, he took a ax and cut her head open. He held his foot on her body and cut her head open. Several licks. And he was trying to term a court here, and they were taking him over to the old jail. Mr. {B} he worked for a guy who got late. And his name was Sam. He says Sam, have you had the trial? Said yes. Said what they gonna do to you? He said Mr. {NS} gonna hang me. Said I wouldn't mind being sent to the penitentiary for life. Said I sure do despise to be hung. He actually said that. He sure do. Despise to be hung. {NW} But they hung him.
Interviewer:  So is he {X}
556:  Uh, I despise to be hung.
Interviewer:  {X} reads to times of the day. What were those?
556:  Oh lord. The Indians had one word. They're better off than we are. The Indians had one word. {D: Autotone.}
Interviewer:  Oh?
556:  When Indians said aw that's morning, it's good morning. In the afternoon, it's good afternoon. If you leave or leave, it's goodbye. And if it's at night, it's good night. But they had one word. While we have all these hello, hi, how's tricks, how's everything, all that stuff.
Interviewer:  Uh they time of day you you change
556:  That's the afternoon.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Yeah, and there's so many people who don't know. It gets 'em confused.
Interviewer:  Right
556:  Southern people always use the evening for after lunch, after dinner.
Interviewer:  That's still pretty much why
556:  Yeah, yeah, they still use the evening means afternoon.
Interviewer:  And uh to to uh met a good a good friend and {X} be you met someone for the first time, what would your formal greeting be?
556:  #1 Well, the form #
Interviewer:  #2 And again, I'm thinking about the old days here. #
556:  Well, they they used to say I'm glad to make you acquaintance.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  That was the old that's of course today it's I'm please to meet you. I'm glad to know you, but it's I'm glad to make your acquaintance.
Interviewer:  Did did they say how do you do or how how you doing?
556:  Howdy.
Interviewer:  Howdy, uh.
556:  Howdy.
Interviewer:  But uh that would be uh that would be a less formal way. Howdy.
556:  Yeah, howdy.
Interviewer:  Uh would you duplicate {X} you and conversations {X}
556:  Hiya.
Interviewer:  Just so that in other words, it really doesn't have meaning, does it? It's just tone of voice.
556:  Hiya.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  That's it.
Interviewer:  It's friendly.
556:  #1 Yeah, hiya. #
Interviewer:  #2 Establishes #
556:  Hiya.
Interviewer:  Friendly.
556:  {D: Yes, slurry.}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. #1 And people uh some someone like this shops all the time uh you all come back is that something that's known or uh do you say that do you #
556:  #2 Yeah. # Oh yeah. Y'all come. That was it was y'all come.
Interviewer:  Y'all come.
556:  Y'all come.
Interviewer:  #1 Or if uh it's children or young people and uh X a service station y'all come back that's #
556:  #2 Yeah. # Especially good today. Y'all come back.
Interviewer:  How how would they say again? Again or again?
556:  It's again. Again.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Not again.
Interviewer:  And how about the greetings for Christmas and New Years? They're called
556:  Well, that's just about the same right then as it was now. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year.
Interviewer:  Did you say Christmas gift?
556:  Well Now that was an expression that started with niggers. If they met the first time they met you on Christmas morning, they hollered Christmas gift, you had to give 'em something. And if you if you said it first, though, whichever one said it first got the gift, see?
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  They were very X catch you first.
Interviewer:  But uh Christmas X morgans X say or
556:  #1 Oh yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Christmas gift. #
556:  Only among friends.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  I remember the niggers would come to the house. It would be dark. Wouldn't even know they were there, and you'd walk out and then Christmas gift, Christmas gift! They all they what do you call they caught you.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  {D: Say they caught you.}
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  And of course you had to get some give 'em candy or cake or something. #1 They caught you. They caught you. They called it I caught you Christmas, see? I caught you Christmas. Well, they did. They said it first. #
Interviewer:  #2 I caught you Christmas. # And uh if uh this is the minute hand {NW} and this the hour hand, this would be a quarter
556:  It's a quarter to eleven.
Interviewer:  And this uh the minute hand.
556:  That's eight thirty.
Interviewer:  Or half?
556:  Half past eight.
Interviewer:  Half past eight.
556:  Yeah, it's half past eight.
Interviewer:  Uh. How bout the use of uh the sun? You had to get up before
556:  Oh, by the sun.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  By uh the by the sun. Or by sun up. Oughta see you sun up.
Interviewer:  Was that before
556:  Before sun down. And did you know that many of 'em can look at the sun and tell you the time to by golly we we had no {X} They would get they didn't own a watch need a watch. And he could look up at the sun and come within just a few minutes tell you what time it was. No matter what time of day it was. Look at the sun. Tell me right. He wouldn't miss it but a few minutes. I thought that was a marvelous thing. Way he could tell the time by looking at the sun. He'd look up there and go {X}
Interviewer:  Any time of the year?
556:  Yeah, he could tell you. They didn't need no watch, all he had to do is look at the sun, he said.
Interviewer:  We talked about uh paying bills, and I have to ask you do people go trading or shopping?
556:  Well Back in the old days, the farmer always took something to town to trade, see? I was talking to a farmer just yesterday. He runs a story in town to talk about the high prices of everything. Oh, he says, I remember back in the old days my mother she'd say uh Go out and gather up some eggs, go around the store, and get me a bar of soap and this, that, and the other. Gather the eggs and take 'em. Said I'd go out to the chicken house and get all the eggs maybe three or four dozen eggs take 'em and trade the eggs. We never had any money. We traded something with the store. Eggs, butter, or something. And said I she'd say gather up the eggs and go get me a cake or soap or whatever she wanted. And he said he'd go out and get ten cents a dozen except for the eggs and trade.
Interviewer:  Pass.
556:  Yes, there he was out yesterday. He saw me and told me egg yeah beaters Forty-nine cents a dozen and fifty-nine. That's a lot of difference. Oh yeah. Said I know it so well. Mother would say go out to the store. Gather up the eggs and go out to the store. Something different.
Interviewer:  And that was trading?
556:  That was trading.
Interviewer:  And would town people uh I guess take that term?
556:  Well, they had nothing to trade, so they had to buy.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. But would they still say I'm gonna trade?
556:  I trade with so-and-so.
Interviewer:  Trade with so-and-so.
556:  They'd say I what's who do you trade with? I trade with so-and-so's store. Yeah, still they had still say it.
Interviewer:  Our different terms for time. Uh how about the X say well, I can't see you a week from now because because somebody's coming. What's another way of saying next Wednesday? Or next Saturday? A week from Saturday. I get again say come Saturday
556:  Yeah, Saturday week's quite an expression.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Uh now the niggers use the term. They use it altogether. They would say the second Saturday or the third Saturday or the or the third Saturday before the first uh before the first Sunday. And they it's the darndest thing and they that's they way they expressed it. Now, I when I used to live up there in the country, see the the niggers they they just one day for Christmas, that was no good. Say it's Christmas here on Sunday. The next day would be the first Monday of Christmas, the first Tuesday, that whole week. It'd be the first Monday, first Tuesday, on, and the next week, it'd start over again. The second Sunday into Christmas, second Monday into Christmas.
Interviewer:  Into?
556:  Lasted about two weeks.
Interviewer:  Months?
556:  Into Christmas.
Interviewer:  Mm.
556:  First Sunday into Christmas. Second Sunday into Christmas. First Monday into Christmas. In other words, around around stretched around about two weeks.
Interviewer:  That's
556:  Of course they had to take get off that time. You know not to work.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  Had to be off then.
Interviewer:  The uh reason for
556:  To celebrate the whole couple weeks.
Interviewer:  Uh, different terms regarding the weather. You'd say the uh the daylight today is is mighty
556:  Mighty fine.
Interviewer:  Uh.
556:  Mighty hot but mighty fine weather.
Interviewer:  You look up uh at a stormy sky, and you say it's looking black uh making me nervous uh. You need any uh any particular words?
556:  Well they had cutter clouds and clabber clouds.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
556:  Yeah, they talked about cutter clouds. I don't know what kind
Interviewer:  X clabber?
556:  Clabber clouds. Clabber clouds looked like clabber. You know a lot of 'em could tell you looking at clouds what they weather was gonna be.
Interviewer:  Uh, what were the expressions they'd look up and they'd say uh I think the weather's uh pretty fair, but weather's uh
556:  Sure enough.
Interviewer:  Yeah?
556:  Sure enough bad.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. And uh or it was getting stormy, you might say well, I think it's time the weather
556:  Break.
Interviewer:  Break? And the wind's been down that's starting to blow, you say well, the wind is
556:  Rising.
Interviewer:  Well, the reverse. Uh, the wind has been blowing hard, but it's
556:  Going down.
Interviewer:  Uh, and different kinds of words for rain uh something that just settles the dust
556:  Yeah that's. Well, you know they had different ways. They had chunk movers. That's a hard rain.
Interviewer:  Now that's a new one.
556:  Chunk mover.
Interviewer:  Chunk mover.
556:  And a gully washer.
Interviewer:  That I hadn't seen.
556:  Now, that's a hard rain. A gully washer chunk mover and a gully washer. That's hard rain.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  You look at the river that is full of chunks, you know? Heh.
Interviewer:  I see.
556:  It rises and peaks. That's a chunk mover we had last night. Or a gully washer. Yeah, that's
Interviewer:  Uh, X rain or not so much?
556:  We called it a seize. We had a good seize last night.
Interviewer:  Uh, what would be a drizzle or a shower, was that the same or?
556:  About the same. A drizzle was just a small shower. Shower was a pretty good rain.
Interviewer:  The uh did they used to refer to electrical storms or what else how did they used to or the storm would go under like?
556:  Well that they'd call it a thunderstorm.
Interviewer:  A day that is uh it's say November. It's cold.
556:  #1 Cold as flusions. Did you ever hear that word? #
Interviewer:  #2 No, I didn't. #
556:  Cold as flusions whatever fly I ever heard find out what flusions were, but I've heard it a thousand times. Cold as flusions today. Whatever that meant. I
Interviewer:  Or uh cold and uh cloudy and rainy. It's sometimes it's what kind of day?
556:  I've heard it referred to as foul weather.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Foul. Or lousy. It's a lousy day.
Interviewer:  You step outside and uh in the morning you've been shivering you say well this morning is mighty
556:  Uh. If it was cold?
Interviewer:  X
556:  Well, they'd refer to a lot of days as overcoat weather.
Interviewer:  Overcoat?
556:  Yeah, they'd say we got overcoat weather today.
Interviewer:  Would they say airish?
556:  Yeah, quite airish. I've heard that term and still use it. I still use that. Airish.
Interviewer:  #1 Now does that uh mean windy or cold or? #
556:  #2 Windy. # Cold wind.
Interviewer:  Cold wind.
556:  It's airish, it means there's cold wind.
Interviewer:  And uh the a long period, say two weeks, without rain, very hot
556:  Dry drought.
Interviewer:  Alright a long say a whole summer uh without a bit of rain
556:  Now, that's a dry drought. {NW}
Interviewer:  The uh wet stuff on the the plants in the morning.
556:  Dew.
Interviewer:  Uh, and if it freezes, it's. If it's cold enough to turn the dew white.
556:  #1 Yeah, frost. #
Interviewer:  #2 Frost? # And uh if you uh the white stuff the cloudy stuff uh in the road that makes it very hard to drive.
556:  Snow? Ice?
Interviewer:  Or or it's cloudy, filmy
556:  Fog.
Interviewer:  Or any term that you remember fog, dew, frost. How bout uh if a pond uh or small body of water has it freezes over just a slight.
556:  That's skim of ice.
Interviewer:  That's skim of ice?
556:  That's skim.
Interviewer:  I see. X much ice.
556:  No, not much. It was either no but it's skim of ice. That's quite a common {D: phrase. That was skim of ice.}
Interviewer:  A uh picking up mush ice.
556:  Yeah, well I they used mush ice for the lawn, they do.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Why they have it.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  We don't have much mush ice. That's when it's just salt and mush is.
Interviewer:  Freezes farther down.
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh. Let's see. The uh I see in the hall that you are under a one of the things that I wanted to check.
556:  {D: I I'll have to take you I have a fifth to lure in my room.}
Interviewer:  Is that right?
556:  A fifth. That's what my wife tells me. Yeah. That's the governor of Georgia. Last three governors of Georgia.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  They were currently on his staff. I have a number of those things scattered around.
Interviewer:  And uh it's one of the things to uh to check on. An honorary commission.
556:  Yeah. Honorary kind of on the governor's staff of Mississippi, the governor of Georgia and Arkansas and High private into Tennessee militia. All of these are confirmed by the governor. {NS} I have the keys to the city of New Orleans, a golden key to New Orleans and Birmingham and I believe Little Rock, Arkansas. And some kind of honors from the city of Memphis. They all out on the wall.
Interviewer:  Uh, other ranks in the army.
556:  Yeah, I was a s- In World War one, I was a radio operator. Used to what you'd call a private in the army.
Interviewer:  Uh and uh ever hear this word captain uh in the army is a mission uh you ever hear it outside the army?
556:  Captain?
Interviewer:  Yeah.
556:  Oh yeah. That that's that that's the title they had. Title of respect you give to some old man. Captain. Captain A's. Not captain. Captain.
Interviewer:  #1 Would the wife uh use it for wife or? X #
556:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  Term he.
556:  #1 Well, when the niggers still refer to a man, he'll call him captain. Or say captain, can you tell me where so-and-so is? They still say. #
Interviewer:  #2 With respect. #
556:  Yeah. They still say it. When they want something. You know, when they want something. {NS} Captain.
Interviewer:  And uh what were these the Southern states as you learned them as a boy? Or what did you consider to be the South. Would you uh say?
556:  Anything below the Mason-Dixon line, I guess.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
556:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Would you uh try to duplicate the X set for example it isn't Mississippi. Mississippi, right?
556:  Mississippi.
Interviewer:  And uh it isn't Tennessee, it's tennis
556:  Tennessee. Missi- They don't string out Mississippi. They call it miss Mississippi.
Interviewer:  Mississippi.
556:  Mississippi. Whereas it should be Mississippi.
Interviewer:  #1 Not well spelled that way #
556:  #2 Yeah. # That is too long. They oughta say Mississippi and let it go.
Interviewer:  Oh. We would try to duplicate the language associations with the other states' major cities.
556:  You mean the Southern states?
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Well, there's Georgia, and as they call it Georgie.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Louisiana. Louisiana. Not Louisiana. Louisiana. Alabama. South Carolina. North Carolina. Virginia. Arkansas. Arkansas now, not Arkansas Some of 'em say Arkansas. It's Arkansas.
Interviewer:  And uh by the way the Arkansas River X is you ever see it.
556:  Yeah, that's right.
Interviewer:  Or uh was Texas part of the South?
556:  Yeah, oh sure. Yeah. Texas. See, there was thirteen states in the Confederacy. Texas was one of 'em.
Interviewer:  So your sense of the South included Texas? Uh your feeling about the South included Texas?
556:  Oh sure.
Interviewer:  Lots of people tell me no, that's West.
556:  That's alright. Texas Texas was one of the Confederate states.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Course their governor Sam Houston was vilely opposed to it, but they passed their own reason. Passed it over and they seceded. Along with the other twelve states. Um, Texas was one of the original Confederate states.
Interviewer:  The major cities when you were as a boy?
556:  Memphis, Birmingham, New Orleans. By the way, the first time I I went to New York once. I heard a lady call it New Orleans. You never heard it called New Orleans what's she it's named after the province of Orleans in France. Of course, it is New Orleans, but it in New Orleans, you call it New Orleans.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
556:  You know how they call it in New York. Memphis, Birmingham. Mobile, Little Rock. Jackson. Uh, Richmond. Charleston, Savannah, and so on.
Interviewer:  And you refer to the nation's capital. It was
556:  Washington.
Interviewer:  With the D.C., or?
556:  #1 Washington or well we said well we used to say Washington state when we meant the state of Washington. #
Interviewer:  #2 I see. #
556:  When you said Washington, you know you meant Washington, D.C.
Interviewer:  What about the city in southern Ohio on the river? X
556:  Which city?
Interviewer:  Uh, not Cincinnati and Louisville.
556:  Cincinnati and Louisville.
Interviewer:  Louisville.
556:  Louisville. That Louisville we see you're out of town Louis radius. Just twenty-five miles over here to Louisville, Mississippi And we said Louisville.
Interviewer:  Uh, you hear about Cincinnati?
556:  It is, yeah.
Interviewer:  How bout the state where St. Louis is? Where was that?
556:  Missouri.
Interviewer:  {X}
556:  Missouri.
Interviewer:  Which which sounds the way it used to be? Missouri or Missouri?
556:  Missouri.
Interviewer:  Missouri.
556:  Not Missouri. Missouri.
Interviewer:  {D: Uh. Couple of uh part of the South uh.}
556:  Well, it was more or less. They it never did formally secede, but they furnished many soldiers to the Confederacy. Hope your home would never uh well you'd take uh Kentucky. And uh Maryland never formally seceded, although they had half the men in in those states, half the men went to the federal army and half the Confederate army. And they're included in the Southern states because they're either had two legislations. One legislation voted to secede. The other voted not to. So for that reason and and so many soldiers from both states fought in the Confederate army that those they put those stars in the flag. They're included in the thirteen states. Although they never formally seceded or formally joined the Confederacy except on by the action of this {D: rump legislation.} And I'll have a many a boys from Kentucky and Maryland, both. Fought in the Southern army. Yeah.
Interviewer:  The uh the word that uh the words that you'd use for for pronunciations or all the words that you use for someone from a European countries studied geography in school, what would they be? Uh.
556:  Well, of course, a lot of these modern countries wasn't even there when I studied geography. We had England, France, and Germany. And Romania and Bulgaria and Russia. I guess Guess all these new, little countries been carved out since. Austria and Hungary.
Interviewer:  Let's see, you uh often mentioned Wales and Scotland and England. They uh mention Ireland
556:  Ireland?
Interviewer:  Yes, uh.
556:  {NW} Course, yeah that was a country. Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales.
Interviewer:  Uh you rarely find uh you can trace your ancestry say it goes back to Ireland.
556:  And millions of 'em came over here from Ireland. I know at the navy yard in New York, we had a bunch of Irish laborers. Playing uh uh drainage tiles. A whole bunch of big, old, husky Irishmen were doing that. Picking shovel work. They wasn't really Irish.
Interviewer:  You uh earlier mentioned down East what are all how did you study those states uh you say above New York?
556:  Well, we studied the New England states as uh up East. All the states.
Interviewer:  And the states were uh the state where lost East what
556:  Massachusetts.
Interviewer:  Would you say it again?
556:  Massachusetts.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
556:  Of course. Massachusetts, Massachusetts if you wanted to say it correctly. We we slurred it over and called it Massachusetts.
Interviewer:  I think that you know you ever you ever checked the pronunciations that only say it as Massachusetts. Uh say the ch. It's interesting it occurs there and occurs often. It's familiar it's all Massachusetts.
556:  They don't say the chu, huh?
Interviewer:  No, they don't.
556:  Massachusetts.
Interviewer:  Yes.
556:  Well, I tell you I went to school up in New York state, and it's never called that at all. No, it's Mass. Pittsfield, Mass, Boston, Mass. You know, they never They never pronounced the whole name. It's Mass. Pittsfield, Mass, and I went to school as a boy. Pittsfield, Mass. {NS} Like Poughkeepsie, New York. I up there they don't spell it out. They spell it P-O-K-P-S-I-E. Whereas it's Pough. Nobody's up there ever spelled it out. P-O-K-P-S-I-E.
Interviewer:  It's near uh by the way the the cough drops when you were there.
556:  Smith Brothers' cough drops, yes sir. Smith Brothers' cough drops or Smith has a very fine restaurant there. And the same old steam-driven fans or in that blew up there a few years ago and I we were in New Jersey up to see our daughter. And I I said let's drive up to Poughkeepsie. I wanna see the old place. So I went up there and lo and behold, all these new highways I just got lost and befuddled. But Smith Brothers, and I said let's go to Smith Brothers restaurant. I want to go there. And I had a roll of Confederate money and I took a roll of Confederate money with me. And we went at old Smith Brothers restaurant, and it was still there. Going strong. And when I got through, I tipped the waitress a five dollar Confederate bill, and she was just enthralled with it. And I went and paid the check to the cashier, the girls found me outside, said give me one of those bills that you gave the waitress. I would be delighted to have one. I pulled out the roll and handed her a ten Oh, just charming. I take that roll of Confederate money, and I use it for tips. Parking lots. {NW} Well, I got by beautifully with that Confederate money. They uh they just ate it up.
Interviewer:  Uh. It's Hyde Park is a good area.
556:  Oh yeah, we went up to Hyde Park. Drove the bus home. Went up Saw the graves out in the yard. Home.
Interviewer:  You ride the
556:  {D: Yeah, they had us three of us arrive arrive Robert forge the Washington and Henry Hudson steamers.} Used to you could go round-trip to New York and back for a dollar and a half.
Interviewer:  On steamers?
556:  On the steamer. We all went out round-trip on it. I believe it was a dollar and a half. Wasn't much anyhow. I think it was a dollar and a half. The day those steamers. Uh, they were wonderful things. They could come flying into the wharf and hit the dock without they didn't use turbs, they just bore right in and tie 'em up, unload the passengers and freight, untie it now. We took a ride on and we had a course mask convention in New York, and we took a ride on one of 'em up sixty miles. Oh, did we go. Uh, a considerable distance. I forty, fifty miles. We took this Had twenty-five hundred horse matches. We shattered the boat. One trip was.
Interviewer:  X see the river or matter of fact, X railroad
556:  #1 Yeah, right up the track. #
Interviewer:  #2 Uh. #
556:  #1 #
Interviewer:  #2 #
556:  New York Central was on one side. And on the other side's what's that other? The New York Central was on the
Interviewer:  East?
556:  West. Probably.
Interviewer:  As a matter of fact, X I went to school in New York X called the uh
556:  Cornwall is the city right across from Poughkeepsie.
Interviewer:  Oh. X
556:  East shore. What did they call that road? I know they the one along one's this parallel. One across the river and one on this side. And that river flows over in one of the you to the automobile traffic, trucks, whatnot. Course the roads get so deep in snow, and he couldn't use 'em until he cleared off just get off the river. Up that ice they'd go. Wonderful highway but the straight ice about three or four feet deep. Old engine.
Interviewer:  Well, sir. It's uh almost five o'clock. I certainly uh X {NS} {NS}