Interviewer: {X} 847: No and the truth of the matter like I was- I wasn't born in Dallas. Interviewer: Yeah. {NS} 847: Uh only reason why I wasn't born in Dallas was the fact that my mother happened to be where she was at the time I was born #1 but uh # Interviewer: #2 Where were- # #1 where was she? # 847: #2 I was in Calvert, Texas. # Interviewer: How do you spell it? 847: C-A-L-V-E-R-T. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: When-how old were you when you came here? 847: Uh just a few weeks old sounds like. #1 but uh yeah # Interviewer: #2 Okay. # 847: She was living in Dallas. She just happened to have been vi-visiting my grandmother when I was born. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: Yeah you know so uh Interviewer: And there you were #1 huh # 847: #2 Yeah. # Interviewer: {X} Okay can you give me your whole name for the {X} 847: That's {C: Should be beeped} Interviewer: mm-hmm And how old are you? 847: Thirty-two. Interviewer: Okay. And your address-your address is {D: this place here} right? 847: That's two thousand North Central Expressway. Interviewer: mm-kay and occupation? 847: Eh manpower consultant and social worker. Interviewer: Can you explain to me exactly what you do? I mean I've been trying to figure out what is it exactly that you do sometimes I've been up here and-I don't quite understand {X} {NS} 847: You wanna know specifically what do I do? Interviewer: Yes. 847: Perhaps many of the things that you have witnessed or heard me doing while you were here were not particularly in my uh job description uh Interviewer: Yeah {C: laughing} {X} 847: Now I uh I'm primarily concerned with manpower programs that are being carried out by the Dallas community of action program. uh The-I guess the most technical things that I do is uh write uh program proposals for manpower operations. Uh in doing program proposals I usually uh depends on uh the area or the time that that uh we're working in or like when I said the time let's take nineteen seventy-six and manpower uh needs were a little bit different from what they were three years ago so then come up with new programs and this is the reason why that uh the funding level is always different uh either you don't get funded for programs to exceed a given period of time uh the job market needs are different. Uh for instance uh five years ago there was a great emphasis on uh uh clerical and office workers. Interviewer: Mm-hmm. 847: Uh there there is still a great need for them the demand is not exactly what it was at that particular time uh particularly in the minority community so far as training programs are concerned. Uh there was a great need for machinist operators such as uh turret lathe machine operators uh mill press operators and so forth uh. Right now that we're concerned about is what is called the {NS} prime age-work of the prime age worker uh it's from twenty-five to forty-five uh in the prime age worker range then uh below from twenty-five back to uh fourteen or fifteen is where is it you find your greatest uh amount of persons uh uh unemployed. Uh the prime age worker we're talking about from twenty-five to forty-five those individuals who would be in the job market and perhaps might need some training uh particularly because they're twenty-five to forty-five usually this is the area in which uh people uh have taken on added responsibilities they assume responsibilities in their lives that uh before twenty-five they would not have and after forty-five they would perhaps not have. Interviewer: Like family and- 847: Family and so forth. uh So it-it's really a matter of you figure the job market out, you figure out what is the uh most prevalent needs in the job market uh you try to design and uh tailor your programs to those specific needs. uh It goes in the job development uh and job development is a-an area in which I work in. People generally confuse job placement uh with job development. Job development has to do with creating a job really rather than placing a person in a job just like a warm body part or slot. But uh in job development you create a slot where there perhaps might not have been a posi- an existing position uh and this is usually done by taking individuals who might have say limited uh needs uh or limited expertise in a certain area and an employer says well I don't particularly want that type of person, need a person with three years experience they need someone who has uh uh greater proficiency at doing certain things and you say well no you really don't need that person that you're talking about because this person can do this and that and uh so this is really job development uh Interviewer: uh-huh 847: more or less than just job placement. eh 'Course nowadays there's not much need for job development or any other type of placement programs even though there's a need to place persons. Uh there are many people out of work. uh You know 'un-unemployment is as great as uh I think uh perhaps certainly the greatest unemployment uh uh percentage factor uh I guess since the depression. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: And Interviewer: {X} 847: this is what you'd call an employer's market. Interviewer: Interesting. Mm-hmm 847: You know uh we're concerned now about uh {D: the fact that} maybe in You know a lot of people are in the job market now that came from the baby boom after the war. Interviewer: Yeah. #1 uh-huh yeah # 847: #2 Well # {NS} this is- people wanna- it's- it's really difficult- it's not difficult in talking to manpower people about what problems this has created uh we have right now more career orient professional career oriented individuals in the society so far as their academic achievements are uh concerned But what's really happening is that there is an an influx of degree-holders that are in the job market and then they can't find a job. Interviewer: Yes, yeah. 847: So what's happening is that uh employees are uh upping the requirements educational requirements when they particularly don't need them in order for an individual to do the job {D: part}. Well the pressure that this is really creating is that the high school graduates or those individuals who would maybe figure into certain areas are not getting those jobs. Interviewer: mm 847: So we're creating a uh a vacuum that's there that uh uh concern is that perhaps in maybe four or five years right now is uh is there is uh a concern about say P-H-D's you have many graduate students that are #1 out can't find a job {X} taxes and so forth. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 847: uh The concern here again is that we don't have a uh a society of great thinkers and no doers. and this is what we're coming up with it's because people after say uh achievement of certain level academically they feel like if society owes them a soft spot so far as their uh vocation or their labor is concerned and this is not gonna be fact even though uh it should not people should not be discouraged in getting a high education. uh but they should be encouraged at a junior and senior high school level to engage in some sort of vocational training that uh they can use uh uh their hands or whatever they're gonna use but uh uh For instance if a P-H-D who knew how to build a house was in and he was out of a job Interviewer: Yeah. 847: he could go be a carpenter Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 And certainly as a carpenter he would make more money than he would uh # Interviewer: #2 {D: Probably make a bit more money as a carpenter.} # 847: yeah he would probably make more money. Uh but then it's a matter of the orientation that you give people. We- I think uh after the war- there's another thing that happened. You see in the ins-in the academic- in the academic institutions they have to keep pushing and all of that uh people in that field need to justify their needs. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: Well in justifying their needs uh they keep pushing and pushing uh they have played down vocational education to a certain extent. Uh now there's a real need for vocational education programs and the labor department uh which is the Department of Labor is going-they are pushing for those type programs. But it's not reeducating society that working with your hands is not particularly uh uh a bad thing to do but this is- this is a real problem that you deal with. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh Interviewer: {X} 847: I'm- I'm looking at the packet I'd say when I was in high school uh {D: prodigal} in high school I can remember people back in the fifties saying oh hell there's no sense in going to college you can't find a job and this particularly was true with black people. Uh what happened was that uh blacks had started going to school and uh uh what I call taking- uh they were taking what I would call soft programs Interviewer: hmm 847: uh like elementary ed uh P-E, homemaking, and that sort of thing. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh Interviewer: #1 {D: phys. ed., volleyball} # 847: #2 so # Yeah you know like what we got around the fifties uh mid-fifties late fifties and a lot of people that were out there they couldn't find a job even though they had a degree. uh you can't use a major in English in a place else but in an academic institution Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh special education programs uh uh same thing goes today with social workers, I can remember a few years ago maybe three to five years ago that there were a great number of uh social science education majors that uh they would go out there that uh they would just have a uh a B-S a B-A uh well that does really no good nowadays. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: You wanna make any money you gotta have a M-B-A Interviewer: Yeah. 847: You know uh either you gotta have a M-S-A you know. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: You know there- there's something that uh you-you-you-you realize that uh that just having a four-year degree is not really very much today. Interviewer: {X} 847: You- you know a four-year degree just says you know another paid trained individual. Well that's really not the case it's just the fact that uh things uh that field got so full that the only way that they could differentiate between those who had uh perhaps be good and those with probably be mediocre were those who had the time or the money and the energy to go on and get a graduate degree. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 You know # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # {X} of schools did you go to in Dallas I mean back in grade school? 847: No I went to uh that school's name was Pacific Avenue {NS} and they changed it from Pacific Avenue to Tennessee Harris. Interviewer: {NS} Oh yeah. Okay. Then-then what? 847: Oh then I went to {B} Interviewer: Then was your junior high {X}? 847: No. Interviewer: Okay. mm-hmm 847: Least there weren't junior highs in the black neighborhood. Interviewer: oh yeah 847: Uh there were junior highs in white neighborhoods before they had junior highs in the black neighborhoods Interviewer: Right. 847: Yeah. Like uh we they changed uh Old Forest Avenue High School into James Madison uh and I started going to Madison. Also was going to {B} during that time in uh which I lived only a few blocks from {B} and that was before integration {NW} Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: #1 or desegregation whichever one you call it. # Interviewer: #2 Oh yes. # 847: uh So then we moved uh it-it wasn't even back there, they just closed down Forest Avenue to whites and opened it up to blacks and called it James Madison. Interviewer: huh Yeah. Okay, uh you said you had some college, where did you go? 847: Uh after finishing high school I joined the service then I was going uh while I was in Europe in the service I was going to University of Heidelberg uh Interviewer: {X} 847: Yeah. Interviewer: Oh yeah. {X} Okay. 847: Then it was University of Michigan. And I've had any number of courses and programs down at El Centro there's just uh {NS} you know community education type programs uh too when I started taking a mid-management course which is a actual business education thing and so I was competing with uh lower level book- uh accounting which is nothing but bookkeeping and stuff like that. Interviewer: Yes yeah yeah. I could use a course like that just keep my checkbook balanced. 847: Yeah, well they gave me the basic principles as far as {X}. It'll make-you can be a bookkeeper you can't be an accountant that type business {C: laughing, creaking} Interviewer: Okay. Okay what about uh clubs and and-and {X}? What all do you belong to and stuff like that? 847: Yeah I belong to the chamber. Interviewer: Is that--what? 847: Well I'm on both chambers which is the Dallas Chamber of Commerce, the Black Chamber of Commerce. Interviewer: You know um I forgot it starts with an oh uh mister {C: name} he works at {X} partnership. 847: Yeah, I know him. Interviewer: Yeah I'm I was talking to him {X} I know he said that he was {X}. {NS} Okay anything else? 847: Yeah. Boy Scouts of America. Interviewer: Okay. You worked--you worked {X} {C: thumps} 847: I'm always donating, now I don't have time to work with them. #1 I have worked with uh # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: uh I I've worked with two groups of Boy Scouts uh I'm also a member of the National Association of Social Workers. Interviewer: Okay um 847: That's Texas Association of Community Action Agencies which is T-A-C-A-A, T-A-C-A-A. Interviewer: Okay. Anything else? 847: Y-M-C-A. Interviewer: {X} 847: Yeah. Interviewer: {NW} 847: And I am the local director of the Youth Crime Prevention League {NS} of America. Interviewer: {NS} {X} Okay. Anything else? 847: I guess past member of S-C-L-C. We don't have an S-C-L-C chapter in Dallas anymore. Interviewer: {NS} What is that? 847: Southern Christian Leadership Conference. {C: creaking} Interviewer: Um what's your religion? 847: Baptist. Interviewer: Baptist? 847: Yeah. Everybody in the South is a Baptist. Interviewer: Yeah, it's true. Are you-are you still active in church {X} {C: noises} 847: Infrequently. Interviewer: Okay. {X} 847: It's kinda easy to do. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 Especially with a job like this. # 847: Yeah. Interviewer: {X} this is not-I guess the idea is {X} a job. 847: {NW} Interviewer: {NW} 847: Well this is more or less like uh {C: thump} when you are awake job. Interviewer: #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 All of you know like # uh when I open my eyes it's my job and uh #1 and it's that way until I close my eyes {C: cat meowing} it's my job, I-yeah. # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. Your recreation is sleeping. # Okay uh where was your mother born? 847: She was born in Calvert, Texas. Interviewer: Okay is-how old was she when she came to Dallas? 847: Eighteen. Interviewer: {NS} How old was she when she {D: had} you, do you know? 847: About thirty. Interviewer: Okay. {D: Where is} your father? 847: Oh he was born not exactly in San Augustine, Texas but I guess it was out in some community around that area. Interviewer: Okay. 847: But you can say San Augustine. It was in that- in that area. Interviewer: Okay. And how old was he when he came to Dallas? About. 847: I would imagine- uh uh I think he's between twenty-five and thirty. Interviewer: And how old was he when-when they had you? 847: He was sixty years old. Interviewer: Sounds like a healthy man. 847: Yeah he's still in good shape. He's ninety-two now. Be ninety-three on his birthday which is next month. {NS} uh Interviewer: {X} Okay uh how far did your mother get through {X}? 847: She finished high school. Interviewer: What about your father? 847: I don't know. Never asked. Interviewer: um okay what-what did your father do? What was his occupation? 847: My father's occupation- {NW} his number one occupation was gambling. Interviewer: {NW} 847: Uh {NW} Interviewer: {NW} Other than that. {NW} 847: He worked uh-he worked as a oil field worker. uh He was a- he worked in the first oil refinery that was built here in Dallas which is a uh uh not a refinery but uh it's a little like a storage tank area. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh they did do some processing out there which is Texaco took uh He worked in the cement plant at the-that place is still out there. uh Interviewer: Does he still gamble? 847: Yeah. If he-if he can find a place to lay a bet he will. Interviewer: {NW} 847: uh Interviewer: {D: That's good}, anything else? 847: He's on the- he's worked for himself, he's on you know like the {D: phase} uh beer joints. Interviewer: Okay. 847: You know, living to be ninety-three you can do a lot of things in your life. #1 And so # Interviewer: #2 That's right. This is true. This is true. {C: laughing, thumps} # 847: He's done a lot of things uh he's been a handyman {NS} uh cook. He's still- he's-he's a great cook. He's got some darn good recipes that uh like barbecue sauce uh Interviewer: {X} 847: Yeah things like that uh Interviewer: I could use some lessons. 847: I cook pretty well. Interviewer: Could probably teach me. I couldn't cook a thing when I got here. Nothing. 847: I-I don't think most women can cook when they get married. I-I had to teach my wife. She still- She can cook breakfast foods and a lot of people say that's easy but it's not easy to cook breakfast food. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Cooking well. You know it's a little bit more than just break an egg and drop it into the skillet. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. My husband likes to cook, which is good, because he hates yardwork. We have this arrangement-I do all the yardwork in the summer, I mow the grass, {X}. We have a garden right now. I keep the garden-I keep {D: the flowerbeds up}- I do all that stuff because he hates it. And on Saturday, I had to go outside and he gets the wash out and he dusts the house and he dusts, vacuums, and he cooks, which is great, you know, it's fine with me. 847: Well I don't- I cook, wash, clean. uh when I had a place where I had uh a yard I would cut the grass, do that whole bit. uh I think probably one of the things that irritates me most is I- I have a lot of ivy plants. And I'll be damned if I don't think about watering 'em-I'm all-I'm gone from home all the time. {NS} And nobody will water my ivy plants. Uh that makes-that is something that really irritates me, you know uh {NS} it's- it's sorta like a- a benign negligence that goes on I s- you know. You can't water my plants, you know I- you know I-I- I feel like I'm responsible- you know like I'm responsible for all the major doings there. uh Watering my plants to me is like fixing my food because then you don't really have to put- you know they don't have to fix their food cause I'm never at home so at least feed my plants. Interviewer: #1 {NW} But nobody does huh? # 847: #2 {NW} # Nobody feeds my plants, you know. Interviewer: {NW} That's pretty good. My husband wouldn't water my plants. 847: He won't? Interviewer: Uh-uh. Last summer I was gone for eight weeks and I had to take all my plants, and I had like two {D: cars} of the plants over to a friend's house and she kept them for eight weeks {X} but he'll dust and stuff like that. 847: Well my-my wife's-my wife's excuse for not watering our plants, she says that uh something about plants they die when she waters 'em. Interviewer: #1 Oh, then you know may be lucky that she doesn't water your plants. # 847: #2 If she-yeah I # said well even if that uh uh you know your plants get to be like your children. Interviewer: Yeah. #1 That's true. # 847: #2 uh # Interviewer: That's true, that's true. 847: And it really both- it really hurts me if I go in and I've neglected one of my plants and they're drooping. Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 You know it's # kinda neglecting the children. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: And they'll let you know that you're neglecting them too. Interviewer: #1 That's right. # 847: #2 And # they have scars, you know like #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 They drop # a few leaves here and there. 847: like with my ivy plant uh, I had one, it was in the kitchen. It's still in the kitchen. uh It's easy to neglect it. Psychologically it's easy to neglect it. It's right next to a plant that's in water all the time. #1 It's in a # Interviewer: #2 Oh. # 847: clear- and it's clear glass and it's sitting there in a gray pot Interviewer: Yeah. 847: right next to that glass and that is the reason why people will neglect- it's the psychological thing. They see that plant that's budding out of the water Interviewer: Yeah. 847: and all that clear water so what would make you think about watering the one next to it? {C: noise} Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: #1 You know? {C: laughing} # Interviewer: #2 I see. # That plant probably has a complex. It probably feels really mistreated. 847: And it has been mistreated, too. {C: thumps} {NW} Interviewer: Okay, what-what was your mother's occupation? 847: Mm {C: thump} I guess the first job that uh I can remember my mother talking about was at uh- she was a housekeeper and a cook. uh Interviewer: Okay. Anything else? 847: Oh uh I believe at one time she worked as a maid. She was in charge of uh {NS} housekeeping at some hospital. Elevator operator. Interviewer: Okay. {NS} 847: Oh and she was in charge of all the custodial cleaning at uh Mercantile Bank at one time. Interviewer: mm-kay Where- #1 where were her parents from? # 847: #2 Then she ended up # working uh My grandmother was born in Ethiopia. Interviewer: Is that right? 847: Yeah. Interviewer: Her-her mother? 847: Yeah. {NS} Interviewer: What about her father? {C: creaking} 847: {NS} My fa- my-my grandfather- {NS} I guess it's southeast Texas around Jefferson, Texas, in that area. {NS} #1 His mother was a full-blooded Cherokee so then he was a cross # Interviewer: #2 huh # 847: between yeah. If you had known me long enough at times I get real red. Reddish brown. #1 you know I don't yeah # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 847: #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 But in color or? # 847: Uh I think sometimes after I've been exposed to a lot of sun Interviewer: #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 uh # I think the older you get you know the darker you get- I used to be much lighter than you know I am now. Interviewer: I didn't know that. huh Does your skin turn darker when you-when you get out in the sun? 847: #1 mm-hmm # Interviewer: #2 Like- # mine does? Does it go away then in the winter? #1 {X} # 847: #2 Yeah. # {NS} My son is uh about a shade darker than I am and he can get real- he can get black in the summertime. Interviewer: Is that right? 847: Yeah and he likes playing out in the and he swims a lot you know out at the pool and in the sun quite a bit playing. And he gets real- he gets real dark. Interviewer: {D: He's black though.} 847: Yeah. Interviewer: I think that's {X} 847: He doesn't- he doesn't- he doesn't get a black black. It's sorta like a- a chocolate. {X} Interviewer: Yeah. Do blacks like darker skin tones or like lighter skin tones? {X} 847: Well Interviewer: {X} {NS} 847: let's go back to when I was a kid and before. If you would take uh the average so-called quote-unquote successful black Interviewer: Yeah. 847: male his wife was more prone to be extremely light and straight hair. uh there was a time it seemed as if the families who did the best were those who had the lighter skinned families. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh Around small towns you know what happens now well you know that the lighter skinned ones that uh either reason why they did better is that uh {NS} their father their grandparent somewhere along the line was white. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: And uh then they got a few favors because they were able to well, they just got favors. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh and then there was a time that uh whites distinct 'em, they still do. Great extent distinctly make a difference between lighter skinned um blacks and darker skinned blacks. Interviewer: That right? 847: I think it's a psychological thing that happens is that people tend to uh relate to those individuals who are close to them even though they their ethnic grouping is different. #1 They too # Interviewer: #2 yeah # 847: tend to relate to that color tone a little bit different. Interviewer: #1 {X} # 847: #2 {NW} # Yeah and then there was a time you know like uh black was evil. So the blacker person lost uh {X}. You know {X} so-and-so said you know he's so evil. Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 uh # black is the ace of spade and just twice as evil. Uh so people even among blacks discriminated against blacks. Interviewer: Because they were blacker? 847: Yeah you know uh uh now uh I think even now there seems- there might be a- a favoring toward uh uh lighter skinned Interviewer: #1 {X} # 847: #2 uh blacks uh # Uh because with the awareness programs that are going up now and the uh the culture revamping where as the people are black and proud, you know like so. uh uh the nappy hair and so forth as a matter of fact I had a friend of mine who uh uh mayor {C: name} son George junior. Interviewer: Okay. 847: Who's- we were in a bar and uh George is a good looking fella you know uh uh very suave reddish-brown tone skin sorta straight hair straight curly hair. And uh fella who owns the bar is about your color but he's got nappy hair. Interviewer: #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 uh {NW} # uh He was one of those older cats that I knew for a long time that people related to him in that particular matter and he's very- has been very successful, he was one of the first black uh well uh negroes- he wasn't black. uh Neither in his attitude his culture nor anything else else because he had been- he grew up on the conditions of the favoritism thing toward his color. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: Uh you know he was telling George- he said you know, here comes old cute George, you know and uh uh I had been- you know like I've done my thing around town, and uh used to be quite a sharp dresser and so forth-I don't dress like I used to. I think it's this job. And uh George was saying well he said the day is ours us light-skinned niggers with straight hair, he said the blacker and nappier your hair is, it seems like the more people who care for you. That is the truth. #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 Is that right? # They really are. 847: Yeah, you know like uh uh who used to really get over. {NS} uh uh I think the black chicks are more inclined to turn 'em away uh those who uh say uh associate uh with whites. uh used to they find that uh they don't get that same favor. Interviewer: #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 And- # and I-I-and I started noticing that particular trend when I was in Germany. Uh I found that in Germany that uh the German chicks were more inclined to uh date the cats who were had broader and- and I- full negroid uh features. Interviewer: #1 uh # 847: #2 You know like # #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 uh-huh # 847: black skin big nose, thick lip and nappy hair. Interviewer: uh 847: And I could never figure that one out cause during that time my hair was kind of curly and straight looking and uh uh that was during my lighter days, I- Interviewer: #1 hmm # 847: #2 course I was just a # shade or two lighter than I am now and I- I said damn you know like I can't figure this one out over here and I know I- I knew that I looked better than those cats did. Interviewer: Yeah. {NW} 847: That's what I thought. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Well I wasn't attractive. You see it's a matter of what you think are good looks, it's a matter of what's attractive to other people. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: I wasn't attractive to them. And uh I sorta went through a-a thing of uh of doubting who- you know Interviewer: #1 {NW} # 847: #2 What # #1 could I do with it? # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 847: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # {NW} 847: That's- that's a real trip that was a real trip to go on though. Interviewer: {X} 847: uh and I- and after a few years back here then things started to change and I guess the change really came about uh oh I would say around sixty-five when I-sixty-five, sixty-six when I started- people uh making a distinction there. Interviewer: #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 um # Saying that uh well the blackness thing. So it real- it really you know like it's- it's been something that uh I guess a lot of people don't wanna admit. But if you would take {NS} right now {NS} I bet you that seventy-five percent of the blacks of a merit in Dallas- successful blacks over forty-five Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: seventy-five percent of them their wives have extremely light and have straight hair almost. Interviewer: That would be interesting-that would be interesting to find out, wouldn't it? 847: And that would be a good thing to study. Interviewer: Yeah, that would. 847: Yeah. And my wife is light. Freckles and all, #1 but {D: just so} # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: {D: I- you know I'd had nothing to do with-} that might have something to do I can remember when I uh when I was in high school all of my- all all of the girls that I dated were extremely light and had straight hair. Back then they were considered as being good-looking. Interviewer: Uh-huh. 847: uh so but now I-I-I-I think I can psychologically, this is a Freudian thing, I can go back to-back- my mother was light, my sister's light. Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 My sister had straight hair. # Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 uh # So then that might have something to do with it. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 Like # Interviewer: #2 You know there's some influence. # 847: Well yeah, and like I- I notice with my son now. He's twelve. Interviewer: Mm-hmm. 847: His little girlfriend is a little Mexican girl. uh {NS} he doesn't seem to be too interested in little black girls {D: running around}. Interviewer: {D: What-potentially?} 847: Yeah. Well they- what it is uh, with his mother being uh {NS} light-skinned, that- well this is a picture of my wife here. That- that's with a tan. Interviewer: Yeah, she is light. #1 Yeah, it seems to me about her hair too. She's cute. # 847: #2 Now that's my daughter you know like # Interviewer: Oh well, yeah. She's light too, golly. She's cute. Your wife's real cute. Is she your age? 847: My wife? Interviewer: Uh-huh. {NS} 847: You wouldn't believe it but she's six months older than I am. Interviewer: Huh. Is that right? 847: Yeah, there's another picture of her. Which I think is a real winner. Interviewer: Oh that's a cute picture. Is that recent- is that pretty recent? 847: No it was taken last year. Interviewer: Uh-huh. 847: #1 {X} # Interviewer: #2 Is she still thirty-two or is she thirty-three now? # 847: She's thirty-three. Interviewer: {NS} Got ahead of you huh? 847: Well ironically I always thought that- I think because of their size {D: that they were light.} {X} #1 I had three or something like it always # Interviewer: #2 Well I was gonna say she looks like she was little. {C: thumps} # 847: Always considered her as being a little girl. I been knowing her- like we grew up together. Interviewer: Uh-huh. 847: Uh when I say grew up together, I think we started liking each other when we were about eleven years old. Interviewer: Uh-huh? 847: So uh Interviewer: #1 That-that does go a long way back. # 847: #2 Yeah we- # we've been together for twenty years. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: {D: You know, here's somebody} here I'm thirty-two and I'm talking about how I've been with someone for twenty years #1 and it's # Interviewer: #2 Yeah # 847: actually a fact though. Twenty years. uh Interviewer: Is she a Baptist too? {X} 847: My wife thinks that she doesn't need to go to church to have religion. I think that she belonged to a Baptist church {D: at one point in time} but uh, yeah I know she did when she was in high school. Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 uh but # Interviewer: #1 {X} Baptists {X} # 847: #2 on-yeah yeah. # Interviewer: How far did she get in school? 847: Uh she graduated from high school, she's been to a business college, right now she's going to El Centro. uh She was one of the first graduates from one of those real slick {NS} uh business colleges that sprung up all over back in the mid-fifties. Interviewer: Yeah, like {X}. 847: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh #1 As a matter of fact she ended up teaching in one of 'em because she uh-yeah. # Interviewer: #2 Is that right? # What about your uh father's parents, where are they from? 847: I've never discussed my father's parents with him. Interviewer: {X} or anything about their education, or anything like that? 847: No. Interviewer: What about the education of your mother's parents? {X} 847: My grandmother perhaps mm sixth, seventh grade. uh In fact my grandfather had less education than that. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: He was a shrewd old man. Very sharp. Interviewer: Is he living? 847: Yeah he just passed uh about four years ago. Interviewer: Is that right? 847: Yeah, you see he- he and my father were about the same age. #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # Wonder what he thought when- when your mother and your father got married? 847: I don't know, you know like uh {NS} that was one of the things that sent my mother to her grave was the fact that she didn't like my sister's husband. uh my mother was a little bit prejudiced too. She didn't like real dark-skinned people. #1 She had a thing about her # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: and my sister's husband was black as that thing there. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh and twenty-five years her senior. Interviewer: Uh-huh. 847: My mother just could not stand it. You know like uh {NS} she lived in a house with him. out in uh {D: Stockton}. And I- that was something that my mother never got over. Interviewer: {D: How so?} 847: She never got over it. That just worried really that was one of the things that worried her to her grave. Interviewer: Sad. 847: And- I think I know what it was. My mother's expectation of her children was that uh you know, we {NS} was that we were always gonna be doing better than how she did. Interviewer: #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 uh # And she had a distinct feeling that uh my sister's husband was a hindrance to her growth. Interviewer: Hmm. 847: uh to a certain degree she was right. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh Course association brings about assimilation. Interviewer: #1 Yeah that's right. # 847: #2 uh # uh I was just telling a friend of mine uh you know I was talking about yesterday. You know I mentioned my profession. When I first came into this building here I wouldn't come to work looking like you've seen me looking at work, I just didn't believe in that uh One reason why is that the environment was different. I worked downtown most of the time and it uh that environment was distinctively different uh that uh so far as your your dress was concerned. uh {NS} I don't know how to work that phone. I hear it ringing but that's okay uh Interviewer: {X} 847: After being over here this- this building is depressing. Interviewer: Yeah. #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 uh # #1 it's usually # Interviewer: #2 I worked in a place like this one time. # 847: It's very depressing, it doesn't give you any incentive, it's not a you know you- you don't do very much creative thinking here. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: And a lot of things happen to people psychologically by working in a place like this #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 mm-hmm # 847: That fellow that's the executive director of this program {X} {D: way away from me} but then that- that I noticed that I uh I had a friend of mine that came over with my that used to work on my staff When we first came over here we were always immaculately clean sharp. And people used to oh you know like here comes uh doctor so-and-so and whatever else they used to call Mike you know uh Who are y'all trying to impress, what are you doing? You know and I said #1 You know like uh, you going to church today? I said I'm coming to work, this is a professional job. # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: And it ended up you know like uh that their attitude, not their attitudes but their manners and so forth has rubbed off on me. Interviewer: Uh-huh. Yeah. #1 {X} That happens. # 847: #2 Yeah. # So uh I-I think that's what my mother's concern was about my sister #1 was that uh # Interviewer: #2 Right right. # 847: uh she realized by being married to an older man that there are just certain aggressions that older people don't have Interviewer: Yeah. 847: You- you know like uh they're not as progressive in their thinking Interviewer: #1 Yeah. Yeah. # 847: #2 and doings and so forth and more satisfied # uh they are more complacent about a lot of things and if you're- if you are in that complacent atmosphere you become complacent too and uh uh course my sister is mm I guess she's been teaching now for almost twenty years, well she's been teaching for twenty years #1 longer because uh # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # She must be {D: much} older than you are? 847: Yeah. Interviewer: {X} 847: uh my sister was born nineteen, my mother was nineteen Interviewer: {X} 847: so uh she's uh I mean she's been teaching over twenty years. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh I know she has. Cause she finished high school when she was fifteen. uh that's right though she was out of college at nineteen. Interviewer: Wow. I was just barely in college at nineteen. What about your wife's uh social contacts, her {X} clubs? 847: Goes to the spa. Interviewer: Okay. {C: laughing} {NS} What about her uh her parents? Where are they from? 847: Marshall, Texas. {NS} Interviewer: Do you know any further back than that? 847: mm her grandmother expired in Marshall so I would assume that she grew up you know within that general area. Interviewer: Uh-huh. 847: Around that area now. Interviewer: Okay. Okay um okay tell me what you call the uh financial center in Dallas where all the banks and savings and loans and stuff like that are. Do you have a particular name for that area? 847: My name for it's South Wall Street. Interviewer: Okay. Anything else? {C: laughing} 847: No that's- that's probably nobody else in Dallas calls it that but that's just the way I look at it, it's name's South Wall Street. Interviewer: Okay. 847: {NW} Interviewer: Okay. 847: {NS} Wall Street I've- people you know I downtown Dallas to me perhaps has the one of the most beautiful skylines of any city in the country. I don't know of any other city- well San Francisco has a pretty skyline. #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 847: It's beautiful. uh And that's just because in recent years they built #1 several new buildings out there lately but otherwise- # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: the hills and all that it's pretty anyhow. uh but I can remember when I was younger I was in New York and had the opportunity to go on Wall Street And I- I associate the Dallas financial industry which uh insurance and banking business uh in Dallas is is great, folks have more. Well everybody knows you know like you you understand that Dallas is an insurance center it's uh banking and so forth and I always thought about Dallas as being a grand and great city. And uh I just say this is South Wall Street and it is in a sense of speaking, there's a lotta #1 money here. # Interviewer: #2 yup # Yup that's true. 847: Lotta money here. Interviewer: What do you call a commercial center like where in Dallas like where retail stores and merchandising center and that kind of thing? 847: That's downtown. Interviewer: Okay. Any other names? 847: No. Interviewer: Okay. Uh is there a separate um black or other kind of minority financial commercial center? 847: Separate? Interviewer: Yeah. 847: No. Interviewer: {X} Okay. Uh what do you call the largest airport around here? 847: D-F-W. Interviewer: Okay. Anything else? Okay. Um what are the most well-known historical landmarks around Dallas? {NS} 847: Well there's the Millermore House. Interviewer: What is that? 847: Well Millermore House is the uh it's one of the antebellum homes that was one of the few that was built in the Dallas area. Interviewer: I didn't know that. 847: #1 Yeah. # Interviewer: #2 That's interesting. # 847: uh there is uh the {X} home used to be the Belo family corporation when- that's Belo- that's a communication corporation- the Belo family owns it's down on Ross Avenue. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Well the Dall- histori- the historical societies have been attempting to do uh uh well there's been talk about uh Interviewer: #1 Was it-was it {X} # 847: #2 preserving that # #1 place . # Interviewer: #2 family home? # 847: Yeah it was a family home at one time. Speaking- have you seen that thing? Interviewer: Huh-uh where is it? 847: It's down Ross Avenue just uh there's a Catholic church that's down there right at uh Ross and which is that street that's not Field Street Pearl no it's not Pearl. It's just a shame I can't even tell you what. Just- just as you like uh it's across the street from uh a {X} place uh Interviewer: Well I'll have to look for it. 847: #1 It's on the right-hand side of the street. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 847: Can't miss it, it's uh a lotta the uh there's a lot of growth around it now like the- they had like the yard roped because the people that uh had it leased was a a funeral home and they uh widened that street in there and they said that cut out some apartment lot Think they were looking for an excuse to get out of their lease. Interviewer: hmm 847: {NW} Interviewer: #1 {X} # 847: #2 It's a reality though. # uh course you know there's uh uh there's the Bryan Neely uh {NS} #1 log cabin downtown, everybody knows where that thing is. # Interviewer: #2 Yeah, yeah. # {NW} 847: Uh I like to go out and look out on Lawther Lane and look at H-L Hunt's house. {NS} The Hunt House. {NS} Interviewer: #1 Where is that? # 847: #2 The Hunt House # is out on Lawther Lane around White Rock like Law-Lawther Lane goes Interviewer: Oh yeah. 847: Yeah. Interviewer: #1 Oh yeah. # 847: #2 uh # That house is almost an exact replica to the White House. Interviewer: Is that right? 847: #1 Yeah it's a beautiful thing you know like uh you can see # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 847: #1 Dallas' own little White House out there and it's # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: I think the dimensions of it are just a few feet uh less than what the White House is. Interviewer: #1 {X} # 847: #2 uh # Now the one I like- {D: Mott} today, you know this is gonna be history tomorrow and forever and a long time is now the market center. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Now the market center in Dallas is second to none- it is the largest market center in the world #1 on- # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: in one location Now that part of Dallas is history I like that's- I saw uh I worked in the uh trade mart, that was the first building that was built up there, I was-I guess in high school when they uh Interviewer: Is that right? 847: #1 when they built that building uh. # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: I have a friend of mine who works in the apparel mart now. And now the largest piece of tapestry that was made {NS} in this {NS} century {NS} is hanging out there, it was commissioned by {X}, it was the uh oh piece of artwork that was uh done depicting the first fashion show. {NS} And it's #1 hanging in the proper place out in the apparel mart on the great hall. # Interviewer: #2 I didn't know that. # 847: uh The piece of tapestry is uh oh it took about roughly two years to make that thing. uh it shows uh the first fashion show was the Shahrazad was uh dressing her sister Dunyazad to marry the king. Uh not the king but the king's brother. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: You know well that was part of the thousand and one Arabian night tales. Interviewer: Yeah. #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 Well you know that story. # Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Well anyway that's- it's just showing the first fashion show because um everybody was so happy when Shahrazad when Dunyazad was gonna marry the king and the I mean the king's brother and the king decided that Shahrazad didn't need to tell him any more tales because he was in love with her. So then Shahrazad in order to uh commemorate the thing she said she was going to dress her sister in all these fine gowns and so forth and there are smaller pieces of tapestry around that shows each area- you know like each gown, each fitting and so forth. Interviewer: #1 {X} # 847: #2 uh # I guess there are a lotta people in Dallas that really don't- uh you know they don't really think about that, to me, was uh quite an achievement. Interviewer: #1 Yes. # 847: #2 uh # Interviewer: #1 {D: I didn't know that.} # 847: #2 Because well particularly since uh you know uh # years ago beautiful works of carpet or tapestry uh was used as money uh And then to have that thing that's {D: just hanging out} that one piece of work cost over a hundred thousand dollars. Interviewer: #1 That is- # 847: #2 uh # Interviewer: That's a lot of money. 847: It's a lot of money. You know, just to have #1 a great rag hanging on the wall but it's- # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: but it's much, really it's just the beauty of the thing captivates you uh there are hundreds of different hues and colors and threads that were used in that thing. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Just a beautiful piece of work. uh I don't know uh- let's see course you know the first tall building which everybody used to come into town was the Magnolia Building which #1 flying red horse, you know that was- # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: that was the building that made Dallas a standout. Uh I can remember as a kid we'd go out of town and it looked like miles and miles away you know you could #1 see that red horse turning. # Interviewer: #2 Red horse. # {NW} 847: After that it was the Mercantile Bank Building. Interviewer: #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 uh # And I had a lot of pride about the Mercantile Bank Building because my mother #1 was in charge of cleaning the building. # Interviewer: #2 That's right. # 847: #1 You know so {C: laughing} # Interviewer: #2 That's right. # #1 That's right a pride for her. # 847: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: {NW} 847: I- I think well I know that uh the some of the most beautiful architecture downtown is the old {D: Darfus} hotel. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: that building uh the building which uh is across the street- the Baker Hotel has a lot of uh work in it too uh Interviewer: Yeah. 847: the old uh Sanger Building- not the Sanger Building, the A. Harris Building which was a A. Harris uh uh department store that's on uh it's on Main Street, right at Main and Akard. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: But uh- These-these are uh some beautiful pieces of uh architecture that uh I think people just pass by, never having a real appreciation for it. uh They could perhaps care less of the thousand or hundred thousand pigeons set up on it Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 You know? {C: laughing} # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: I've got- and things like that I take a lot of notice in uh There are I don't know, there- there are so many things, you know like if I was- I'm talk- you asked me what uh about Dallas'- you know uh the historical spots in Dallas, I'm just taking about the things that uh there are other places there are other things here but uh that I- I just look at those things and I particularly appreciate or like them. Interviewer: #1 Yeah. {X} # 847: #2 uh # Let's take the cement plant out where my father worked out in West Dallas. That ce- the uh sorta like the ventilation stack, that thing was one of the tallest type stacks made in this country like uh and it's still standing out there, company's going out of business, they've turned it into they're developing it into a uh industrial park and they left their stacks sitting there and they saw like a Interviewer: #1 Huh. # 847: #2 {X} figure that's out there # Interviewer: Huh. That's interesting. 847: Yeah. Interviewer: Are they gonna leave it? 847: They're gonna leave it there and- and it's uh it's illuminated at night. Interviewer: #1 That's neat. # 847: #2 Yeah. Yeah. # Uh Interviewer: {X} 847: I sure wish the city parlors had had sense of that or had had the foresight to see what an attraction a streetcar would've been in Dallas #1 if they had {D:let} downtown now. {C: creaking} # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. {C: creaking} # 847: {NS} When they took the streetcars away that- that really- I always knew that the streetcar shoulda been- I said that they should leave at least one track or one route for the streetcar. and everybody thought you know said what? You know like eh my mother used to try to explain to me you know about the you know the tracks are dangerous and they're in the way. I said no- I said you know that would certainly make people uh {NS} uh I said just something about it was a history thing, and I was just a youngster thinking about that thing. Interviewer: #1 Yeah look at San Francisco now. # 847: #2 uh # I could- the thing that I thought they shoulda done was left one track the uh that was an old track that went by Union Terminal Station. uh {C: noises} that- that went to {D: old cliffs}. Interviewer: Yes. 847: Uh Interviewer: {X} {NS} 847: I think there's something about a real nice spot I used to like to go to. Interviewer: What do you think- tell me this. 847: {X} Thank you. Fair Park. Interviewer: Oh yes. 847: {D: Down} The Museum of Fine Arts in Fair Park. uh Music Hall. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh which is a very fine structure. The Museum of Fine Arts has a a wealth of fine collections in there. uh Museum of Natural History is perhaps one of the most complete about uh southwest animals and so forth you'll find. uh I don't particularly like our {X} over there, it doesn't offer very much. uh the uh what they call the Texas Hall of Fame. Interviewer: Yes. 847: Very fine place. uh I've started taking my son like over in there because I grew over in the Fair Park and these places were just like I used to play in them. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: You know uh so I I grew up with an appreciation for art through that just that- that association, just growing up over to that neighborhood and having a it- it was like a daily thing you know you could go over and- and look at things and other people would have to come on too or make it a once a year #1 thing to do. # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: uh so that's you know that's something I have a lot of appreciation because that uh it gave me an insight on a lot of culture and art #1 {D: at the time} but uh # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # #1 Just have it right there. # 847: #2 Yeah it- it was like that. # course now the Cotton Bowl is something that's very famous. I can remember when they built the first extension which was a double deck Interviewer: Yeah. 847: on the cotton bowl and that was {NS} during the days when Doak Walker was going to S-M-U. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. 847: #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: you know like this one captain built the Cotton Bowl. {C: laughing} And that's literally what happened. And after that you know they put double decks on it, I can remember as a kid going to look out over that deck and I think the Cotton Bowl was one of the well the Rose Bowl was always a good place but the Cotton Bowl is still one of the finest stadiums in the country. Interviewer: Uh-huh. 847: You know so far as the uh pieces of the Cotton Bowl. uh {NS} {NS} Dallas has lost a lot of its history though. Uh I think modern times have changed a lot of things. Interviewer: Such as? 847: I don't know like it just seems that like let's take downtown for instance. They- they have torn down most of the old buildings and things that uh Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh They just here recently started to think about trying to preserve {D: something}. uh They were going to tear down the old red brick courthouse. Interviewer: #1 Oh yeah I remember that. # 847: #2 You remember that? # #1 I thought that was # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: the craziest thing in the world you know. Interviewer: #1 Aw I couldn't believe it. # 847: #2 You know. # uh I'm glad somebody finally rescued the place. {C: laughing} Interviewer: {NW} {NS} 847: I could've been one of those persons who woulda been sitting down on the bricks while the #1 bulldozers were coming. # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. {C: laughing} # 847: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: uh Interviewer: #1 {X} # 847: #2 I can- # I can think of so many things that are just not here anymore that are gone #1 you know uh # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: Uh it's- it's sorta like uh it's the town of no no past to it. It uh Interviewer: Yeah. It all looks so new. 847: Yeah, you know if- if it's torn up so much here. and uh they've thrown away a lot of art a lot of history in this town. uh They didn't do very much to preserve lot- lotta the old neighborhoods. uh Interviewer: Yeah. 847: They're gone. Interviewer: Like {X}? 847: Yeah. It's gone. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh {D: and a lot all gone around} uh Swiss Avenue of course you know the historical society has been able to preserve some of those homes over there. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh over in South Dallas around Park Grove uh South Boulevard. there are some very fine structures over in homes at uh Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Well at one time that was an area that uh a lot of Jews lived in. You know of course there's always- there was always that prevalent factor that in this society there were more people who discriminated against blacks you know black people usually get off in this thing that uh they the only persons discriminated against but then even the Jews like have always been kinda nestled off to the corner #1 somewhere # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: and that there's a lot of people that won't admit it now but then there's an area out in North Dallas now. that we have uh just a hell of a lot of Jews live in that area. Interviewer: Oh yeah. Oh yeah-all-all together. 847: #1 Yeah all together. # Interviewer: #2 Yes. # Yeah. #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 And uh # strange thing isn't it? Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: If you ever really think about it uh Interviewer: Really what uh-what are all the-tell me what the derogatory names do you know to refer to the Jews that are used around here. 847: Oh {NS} What is a {X}? #1 That's something that they don't really use that # Interviewer: #2 I'm not sure. # 847: #1 down here. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # but I know it's something. 847: #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 Sounds like something {X} would use but I don't know who he'd be talking about. # 847: Well you'd either be talking about a Jewish person or an Italian. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. #1 Cuz I don't think # 847: #2 Yeah. # I know Polack's a Polish {D: immigrant} Interviewer: #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 But then you don't- # you don't hear Polacks used down here very much because there's not that many Polish people. Interviewer: mm-mm 847: Jews you just don't uh Jew is a Jew. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh being a Jew is derogatory. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Sometimes. You know just the- just to imply that an individual is a Jew uh uh I've seen that uh be uh something bad I know uh I can remember this is nineteen or twenty years old uh being a Catholic down this way was pretty bad #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 Is that right? # Do you know of any other names they were called- the Catholics? 847: No. Interviewer: But just Catholic? 847: Yeah just being Catholic and I- and that thing really heightened up when uh Kennedy was running #1 for president # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: for his {X}