Interviewer: Tell me about hide and go seek. 847: mm-hmm Interviewer: What else did you play when you were a kid, we also talked about marbles. 847: Marbles. There was a game uh called ring around the roses. Interviewer: How do you play that? 847: uh This is where I forgot exactly how the game goes. uh and ring around the roses is where a group of kids would get together and form a circle uh then that one would be designated a chosen by means that I have forgotten to be in the middle of the ring. uh And then the uh circle would start in a motion say clockwise or counterclockwise uh and start singing this a uh rhyme something like uh little Sally Walker sitting in a saucer. uh then that person would uh Interviewer: {X} 847: Yeah it would be uh little Sally Walker sat in a saucer so et cetera et cetera then rise Sally rise Sally rise I have forgotten uh uh I think uh I believe Sally was supposed to choose uh uh a lover or someone who she cared about or something like that a course I I don't remember whether or not when the boys went in the middle that uh if he was still Sally or if they #1 changed his name. # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # {NW} 847: uh but that's about all I remember about that particular game uh. Those were basic games that uh we played then uh. Interviewer: What other kind of games did you play in a circle like that? 847: Course then there was always the party game that wasn't a circle game it uh was pin the tail on the donkey Interviewer: Oh yeah. 847: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: That one uh there was another game blind blind man's buff I don't know uh Interviewer: What what's the name of that? 847: uh it was it was either blind man's bluff or buff I never even uh thought about what was that last word I know we ended up saying it was buff but I believe it was blind man's bluff instead of buff B-U-F-F instead of B-L-U-F F. Interviewer: Do you remember how it went? 847: Oh I don't remember. I I would recognize the game immediately if I saw #1 someone # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: playing it #1 though. # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # Yeah. What kind of um did you have line games like anything like Red Rover or anything like that? 847: No. Interviewer: Okay um What about ball or tin can games where you where you kick it or have a ball or something like that? 847: Well playing ball I can remember playing ball what we called baseball Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh wasn't really baseball usually used a tennis ball. Uh the bat uh the object in which you were gonna hit the ball with either ended up being a piece of a two by four or one by four or #1 a broomstick or something. # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 Hard to hit # it with a broomstick. 847: Yeah but uh kids back in I can remember we used to hit a ball as straight as you could about imagine because then the the outbound lines were the curb markers on either side of the street and usually the street was just a two lane street now so you can about imagine Interviewer: Yeah. 847: how straight you had to hit a ball then. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh And we ended up hitting the ball pretty straight. uh the tin can it wasn't a game that we played we used to make things called uh tom walkers. The tom walkers were made out of say a number two tin can with wires uh strung through it whereas that you could hold the uh can on your feet uh by pulling up on the wire to hold cans on your feet. uh Interviewer: Oh and you walked on 'em? 847: Yeah. Interviewer: Like stilts kinda? 847: Yeah. Interviewer: Oh I get it. 847: And after you after you graduated from the tom walkers you went to stilts Interviewer: uh-huh #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 So {C: laughing} # Interviewer: Did you ever make it to stilts? 847: Never made it to #1 stilts I wasn't that # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: coordinated. Interviewer: {NW} 847: uh Then we played golf so on the golf course I think uh in the ghetto the introduction to the golf course or the poor neighborhood so we'd you know like golf courses were off limits except to the fact where if a kid be a caddy uh he could go to the golf course uh but so far as anything municipal uh courses or the private courses they were always off limits so we ended up uh uh making a uh say three hole uh three putting hole uh uh diamond like a baseball diamond or either you could set it up with four and you would just uh putt the ball toward the holes there was no specified distance or anything like that. #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 uh-huh # 847: Usually it was through rocks and bricks and everything else uh lotta fun I just imagine some of those kids coulda been the greatest putters in the world if they had been able to putt on a real green. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: You know like if you can I I've seen the golfers going through this bit of uh removing a piece of pollen off the green course you know but sweeping it clean Interviewer: #1 {NW} # 847: #2 uh # if only we coulda gotten our green clean as as many it it woulda had to have been the fact that somebody had to come in with a grater and and mash the place down but uh Interviewer: #1 {NW} # 847: #2 uh # I used to bank balls off a fence I can remember uh I just the one putting hole we had was right at the it was at the base of a fence that was uh uh made out of two by fours and uh you got real good if you could bank the ball just like shooting pool but the only thing you had a greater distance and a slower ball. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: uh Got pretty good at that too. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: That was always was called a trick shot. uh That was always a winning shot if you could make one by banking it and another fella made it by shooting it straight in. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh Was a lotta fun. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh I didn't ever play very much say cards and card type games uh. Card games were taboo in uh my house because my mother was such uh uh big Christian and she didn't believe in playing cards. Interviewer: mm 847: uh Most anything gambling type games she associated dominoes with gambling. uh uh I think it uh mighta been because usually the people that you saw sitting out even now pass by certain areas and you see people uh uh sitting out front playing uh dominoes which is uh obviously a good pastime uh Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: but uh it just wasn't the type of game that you associated uh nicer people with playing uh you know. Interviewer: I get it. 847: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: That was sorta like the game that you uh always it was synonymous with going to a pool hall. Uh that was a pool hall game #1 then so # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: we didn't play dominoes or very many card games uh at all I think the only card game that I learned how to play uh as a kid was uh was it old maid I believe Interviewer: #1 Oh yeah. # 847: #2 kind of game. # Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh Interviewer: We played that. 847: but uh I know when I went into the service people were playing pinochle poker and other various card games and I was sitting there ignorant not even know how to play a course I learned how to play a few card games uh after watching for a while if you apt enough you pick them up but uh that might account for the reason why now I don't play card games uh unless uh that's my last resort I don't care who it's with. uh Chess was something that I learned uh to appreciate after getting grown uh I didn't ever know what one chess man was to another one. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh that was sorta like uh more of an aristocrat game you just didn't find uh and even right now uh people in certain classes they play poke- I mean uh chess uh. You don't find everybody playing chess. Interviewer: {X} 847: Chess is more of an intellectual game anyhow. Interviewer: Yeah. That's true. What about checkers 847: Yeah we did play checkers. But not we didn't play checkers on Sunday either. Interviewer: Is that right? 847: No. Interviewer: No okay. 847: No games not no baseball no golf none of that business on Sundays. Interviewer: What did you do on Sundays? 847: Oh Sunday was usually uh went to Sunday school went to church service uh after church dinner. It was very quiet Interviewer: #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 uh # not very many things to do. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh Sunday we'd usually spend in preparation for going back to school course there was a lotta school around vacation season or holiday uh that was another thing we just ended up uh either make having some makeshift games that uh would be accepted. Interviewer: uh-huh quiet #1 probably. # 847: #2 Quiet # games. Interviewer: Yeah. uh Did you ever play anything like knife tossing games? 847: Yeah. Interviewer: What do you call those? 847: uh I believe we used a knife and a uh a knife an icepick and that was called mumble peg. Interviewer: What? 847: Mumble peg. uh I think uh something I believe as a matter of fact I know that {D: some people it was either mumbo peg or} {D: mumma} peg I don't know which one it #1 was. # Interviewer: #2 uh-huh # 847: uh Interviewer: uh-huh 847: You you kind of uh uh go through the motions of saying something that you think that you heard sorta like this thing up here the communication problem and I know you believe you understand what you think I said but I'm not sure you realize uh what you heard is not #1 what I meant. # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: uh Interviewer: {NW} I love it. 847: #1 Yeah well you know like uh uh # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: like now I I believe that uh people are in the habit of repeating what they think they heard and if you ask them well what did that really mean all #1 they # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: know that they can associate is with what they have done but not really what it really meant. Interviewer: Yeah. I always used to sing a Christmas carol hark the herald period. Angels sing and I never could figure out what hark the herald meant. It wasn't until later that I realized that it's herald angels you know I was like in college when I realized. 847: Yeah I think you st- I I I think you start to uh researching some of the things that you've said because it uh well to make sense to you you have an analytical mind it doesn't make sense so that means that you didn't really understand what you were doing as a child. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. um Listen here there's another joke about that there's a hymn gladly the cross I bear and anyway the kid who came home said they called it gladly comma the cross I bear. 847: {NW} Interviewer: {NW} 847: #1 Well well did you # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 847: did you ever hear the joke of the uh the minister who uh addressed his congregation and said well I'd like for someone to uh uh select a hymn for us to sing this morning. And uh there was this homosexual who was in the back of the church he stood up and said I'll take him and him and him. {C: voice} Interviewer: #1 I don't believe it. I don't believe it. # 847: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: #1 {NW} # 847: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: {NW} Gosh. #1 Who knew. # 847: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: #1 {NW} # 847: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: oh {X} Did boys jump rope? 847: Not frequently. Uh most of the boys jump roped if uh there were some girls around that they wanted to impress or either be close to. Uh just as boys started up a rope jumping game no uh most boys uh might've become interested in rope jumping if they were engaged in uh say uh athletic uh competitions such as boxing uh something that uh rope would be a more applicable to so far as it being a training apparatus. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh but we just didn't uh rope jumping was either for girls or sissies Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. My husband can't jump rope because he didn't play football or anything you know he didn't box. 847: Rope jumping was either for girls or sissies. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. My husband can't jump rope because he he didn't play football or anything you know he didn't box or anything like that and consequently he can't jump rope. 847: Yeah I I I knew some cats who could jump rope like they were made with rope under their feet but uh I just wasn't that coordinated. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Yeah. Interviewer: um What do you call different kinds of fast moving amusement rides that are on tracks like at the park? 847: Well A roller coaster. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: But there was another name we used to call it I've forgotten what it was. Interviewer: huh 847: uh I don't remember what it was. uh Interviewer: There any other kinds of games I mean kinds of rides like that? 847: uh not so far as the roller coaster you know that's the biggest thrill at the fair. Interviewer: Yeah. #1 I could you could never get on # 847: #2 uh or at the amusement park. # uh And I understand that the roller coaster we had here in Dallas was was like a uh a motorcycle to a Cadillac to a thing that they had built out in California Interviewer: #1 Oh that's right. # 847: #2 that # uh goes over the ocean. uh Interviewer: hmm There would be no way you could get me on that no way. 847: Uh now that was always uh there was a ferris wheel. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: But there was another name we used to have for ferris wheel. uh I don't remember exactly when I started calling it a ferris wheel Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: or why it's even called a ferris wheel. Interviewer: That's what I always called it too. 847: Yeah. Interviewer: um let's see oh What did you call some sort of initiation ceremony where older boys would beat up the younger kid or haze him or do stuff to him did y'all do stuff like that? 847: No we didn't play that. Interviewer: Did you have a name for it? 847: No I I think I became uh acquainted with hazing in the late fifties whereas it I was a relatively mature teenager Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: and reading about that was during the craze at the colleges whereas at uh colleges and the fraternal organizations that come under scrutiny of many people in the country because in that time there were a lotta deaths as a result of hazing. Interviewer: Yeah. #1 {X} # 847: #2 So uh # uh That's just why I really started uh any paying any close attention to uh fraternal initiations and so forth. Uh we didn't engage in beating people uh I think the only beating you mighta received was on a birthday whereas that you got uh the amount of licks to the in in the in accordance with what your age might've been. Interviewer: Yeah. Did you ever get one more and call it something else? 847: uh yeah it was called something else I've forgotten it. That was uh that last lick no it wasn't what it was like uh something related to one for next year something uh I've forgotten what it was Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah we hadn't named it but um okay say you're gonna get together with some friends and have a good time you say you're gonna get together and have a what? 847: With friends? Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Depends on what we're gonna do now there oftentimes my friends and I might get together with us and we're gonna have a set. Interviewer: A what? 847: A set. Interviewer: What is it? 847: Set. What is a set? Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Well I would engage in a set usually with individuals who are close my closest acquaintances and friends. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh I go to a party If I go to uh what I consider as being a party would be uh whereas there's gonna be people there that I'm not acquainted with maybe just a few friends of mine. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: Uh but with my friends we don't get parties we get sets and sets are usually more closed it's like a fraternal organization. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: uh Interviewer: Is it men and women? 847: Men and women. uh At a set you usually people do whatever they wanna do. uh Whatever is their choosing. And course and uh this is the advantage of that being amongst friends and close associates is that uh no one feels inhibited about whatever their actions are. Interviewer: mm-hmm mm-hmm What what like for instance like we drink and do y'all sing? I know we have parties where we sing everybody sings. It's crazy we can't sing you know we're no good but everybody loves to sing. 847: Well I never engage in those groups where the people got together and sing. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Yeah one reason's that uh I don't sing that well. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: and you tend to appreciate those things that you #1 can be a # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: standout in so I didn't engage in the singing #1 parties # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: too much uh. uh I can uh recall fellas who were very good vocalists and they they usually would be say in a singing group or either thought that they could sing Interviewer: uh-huh 847: and that was a time for them to get together and show off. Interviewer: uh-huh uh-huh 847: #1 So. {C: laughing} # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. {C: laughing} # Which didn't make you feel too good it #1 didn't. # 847: #2 No. # Interviewer: {NW} 847: They would be the center of attraction not that I wanted to be the center of attraction but I wanted to be noticed anyhow. Interviewer: Yeah at least. 847: Yeah. Interviewer: At least. um well okay say you didn't have a set this weekend um What would y'all do sit around and talk and laugh and or what I guess? 847: Well Interviewer: But does it usually include drinking? 847: For the alkies they drink. For the {D: weed as} they smoke weed if you got some that uh weren't involved in snuffs what we call snorting instead of sniffing coke that's their business you know. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. 847: Uh there are people who just come to the set just to eat. Interviewer: #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 uh # Usually uh most of the sets that I go on start after twelve. Between twelve and two and people will end up leaving five six and uh the stragglers who can't make it might leave at eleven oh clock the next day. uh And it's sort of a friendly type thing whereas it people uh whatever say for instance if it's at my house which rarely ever there is anything given at my house. uh Uh one reason is that I don't uh think that uh too much social entertainment should be done in the uh in the arena where your children are. Interviewer: hmm 847: Uh one thing is that uh you cannot uh depend on uh uh individuals to be uh to inhibit their action just because your family's there and you might get insulted about it and you lose a friend. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: So uh keep that sort of a situation down I just don't engage in too much entertainment at home. Interviewer: mm-hmm #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 uh # Most persons that do are usually single uh either they are might be a married couple with no children. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: So uh then you can uh gauge the activities that uh uh uh I just don't think that you mix family and your social thing together that much. Interviewer: mm-hmm What else would you call it besides a set? {X} 847: Well it's a party. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 A party # is just not as close it's not as close friends is that it? 847: No parties are usually uh more formal uh. You you might go and meet people and you uh like I said you're just restricted at a party. uh I I would think of an individual to be restricted some way or another at most parties because uh there's a front you have to keep up uh and then you're dealing with the unfamiliar and people are just are less prone to be themselves when they're around a group of people they don't know. And most parties do bring strangers together. Interviewer: mm-hmm Okay okay um okay what various names do you have for music records? 847: Music records. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Platters. Sides. uh Tunes. uh I mean I guess uh most colloquial terms that we might use would be platter sides and tunes. Interviewer: Yeah. Does does that refer specifically to a kind of music like jazz or rock or whatever or can it be any type of music? 847: It can be any kind of music. uh uh I think a good usage is side would be hey man did you hear that side by the O-J-s. Interviewer: #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 uh # The response might be that was a cold tune uh uh either uh you another usage of tune would be have you heard the new tune that uh the O-J-s have? uh They put out some hip platters. Interviewer: uh-huh #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 You know # so uh Interviewer: What kind of music do you like? 847: My music appreciation is varied it goes uh anywhere from chamber music to uh hard rock and blues. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh I have a deep appreciation for the music art and I think it's something that's uh beautiful it's a matter of expression. uh I often wondered how did some people only listen to one type music. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh Always felt like an individual who could only appreciate one music his life was a little bit imbalanced. uh And it really is uh I particularly the moods of music uh you have some music that's happy some music that's sad and some music that uh is tranquil. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh there's very little rock music that has any tranquility about it Interviewer: This is true. 847: uh I think well I let's take uh there are very few minorities I know beside perhaps Charlie Pride who likes western and hillbilly music but I like it. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Which uh western and hillbilly music however you wanna call it has been a part of my culture due to the fact that I grew up uh I spent a lot of my growing up days in west Texas. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: There was a time in west Texas on the only opportunity that you got to hear anything other than western music was late at night or else you had a pretty good radio that could pick up bands outside of your area. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh I don't know where my first association with classical music came from. uh It might have been with the first time that I heard Swan Lake. uh And it had to have been somewhere along that time because I I can remember the uh uh Swan Lake and some of the uh uh like uh Tchaikovsky's uh Nutcracker Suite and things of that nature that uh {NS} Interviewer: mm Too bad you know. Okay uh you see did you have any other um terms for like jazz would you call it jazz anything else? 847: Jazz has been basically jazz. Jazz is a uh music a music that uh basically hasn't changed that much uh. The people that appreciate jazz are usually the same type people. uh As a matter of fact there's been a decline in jazz jazz is uh has been declining over the last five six years #1 who knows. # Interviewer: #2 mm-hmm # 847: #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 uh-huh # Wonder why. 847: Well I I I would believe that uh number one is that uh uh jazz is usually a deeper and more sensitive type music. Uh the era of jazz uh music does uh tell a story about the era in which it has been written in which the era in which it has been played. For instance the happy tunes of the twenties or the tunes of the late sixties and early seventies will uh will depict if you listen to 'em twenty years from now what the mood of the country was at that particular time. Uh there has been a change in mood and attitudes and this is the reason why jazz is not as uh prevalent in music as it was a few years ago. Uh there were no real attempts to uh to uh salvage uh save jazz uh the image of jazz uh becau- one thing the image of jazz had been bad for a long time. #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 How's that? # 847: Well most people associated jazz musicians with narcotics um dope as people called it uh uh particularly marijuana. Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 Uh at the # time that they were calling the weed the evil the evil killer the weed Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: uh so uh and there were a lotta jazz musicians who had gotten busted because then they were the targets of uh law enforcement officials I uh uh people just did not believe that an individual could uh psyche himself out to play like that and uh uh go for the {D: trancing} mood it seems as if that some fine jazz musicians might've gone through. So consequently it uh taking on that light I believe that a lotta people tended to move away from jazz. uh Uh one thing that was a music that usually wasn't played uh in your better music theaters uh it wasn't played in your uh better homes uh they just associated it the same as they would associate honky tonk music. uh There seems to be a uh some concern in some areas about uh reviving the uh jazz. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh I think doing- uh I believe it as a matter of fact I I see some clear indications uh here recently that uh Dallas is producing fine jazz musicians also uh and you know just to add to that statement uh and I've noticed in the last uh six months or to the last year uh they have started backups and jazz sessions on Sundays. Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 uh # There is a place in Dallas now that uh the recovery room where you can always hear some of the better jazz musicians uh from uh from the fifties and sixties. Interviewer: At the recovery room. 847: At the recovery #1 room. # Interviewer: #2 Funny # name. 847: Yeah. #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # That's good that's good. Gotta recover from your work week. 847: But uh I think what it is is that the times are changing now people are becoming more supple in their roles in society. uh There will always be a social role the so called activists but then not on the same level we have to start looking for some new issues pick up the new issues from the things that Congress is finding itself doing now. Uh we were too busy with other things prior to having kinda you know so this is oughta keep 'em busy. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: So the it's change uh people uh I've noticed that uh doing the bicentennial of course bicentennial year coming up that uh people have a more somber mood about uh their past and the things that have happened to 'em. uh Just this year the nineteenth of June was revived uh back on a big scale Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: uh It it's sorta like the issues are dead but people still feel like there's something that uh needs to be done. Interviewer: Yeah uh would you describe for me all the stuff that that uh the blacks did for Juneteenth? 847: Well you know like Juneteenth is a big day #1 it was just # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: like Christmas. Interviewer: #1 Yeah what all happened # 847: #2 uh # Interviewer: this year? 847: Well for one Dallas had its first and once it was built it was the largest black rodeo west of the Mississippi. uh Sure had hell been west of the Mississippi anyhow it coulda been east west north or south #1 of the Mississippi # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # 847: but not in Mississippi three years ago. Interviewer: #1 {NW} # 847: #2 {NW} # I don't have I I think it's sort of a standing joke to talk about Mississippi people really don't even have the vaguest idea of what goes on in #1 Mississippi. # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: uh There was a parade here. uh There were sessions uh in like in parks where people made dialogs and uh uh social events the past and the future and things of that nature particularly what we're dealing with presently. It was a matter of getting people's mind uh more unified uh by bringing back some of those things that uh created the situation of freedom in this area. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh Interviewer: And Juneteenth was the day that? 847: Juneteenth was actually six months after the day day that the slaves found out about the Emancipation Proclamation had been signed that uh they had their freedom uh and it took that long for that to come down to Texas. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh Then as the word had gotten to Texas it was on the nineteenth of June that uh slaves in the South uh uh well you would call it South Central Texas uh down or either North Texas Mexia Texas uh which is uh synonymous to Negro history as the Chisholm Trail is to the West. uh this is where many slaves uh crossed the uh river. uh Down in that area which was a Comanche crossing they called it and I just imagine the Comanche crossing had something to do with the Indians that were uh in that area Interviewer: mm-hmm Okay let's see. um #1 Did # 847: #2 Now # Interviewer: #1 {X} # 847: #2 at # Comanche crossing there are people that come from all over the states who migrated away from Texas come back home for that particular day I was #1 amazed # Interviewer: #2 Is that right? # 847: to find that out myself and I just found that out in the last couple years. #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 Neat. # 847: I have uh several friends of mine who have relatives who specifically won't take their vacation any other time and time come down for the week long celebration of the nineteenth in Mexia Texas at the Comanche crossing. Interviewer: That is neat I didn't know that. I knew about I knew about the nineteenth but I didn't know that Mexia had you know. 847: Oh you know like then then like uh if you go back to the forties and the uh fifties uh late forties and fifties and I can remember then the nineteenth was the the nineteenth and the uh negro achievement day was the only day that blacks could use the facilities at the state fair. So uh Interviewer: You're kidding. 847: Oh no this was back you know. Interviewer: Oh I can't believe it. 847: Two days outta the whole year. #1 You know. # Interviewer: #2 Depressing. # 847: uh So that was like a real big day people dressed up on the nineteenth like it was like going to church on Easter. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 Go to fair park. # Interviewer: #2 {X} # 847: uh Interviewer: Great a great {X}. 847: It was a great day you #1 know uh # Interviewer: #2 Yeah not too # great that it was the only one or one of two. um What are the names of some neighborhoods in Dallas that are either black or brown some minority uh that are main mainly low in economic and social status? 847: Oh there is let's take west Dallas. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh Which we back in the fifties started calling the coast. Interviewer: The coast? 847: Yeah #1 well you associate # Interviewer: #2 I didn't know that. # 847: west Dallas by you know like West Coast. Interviewer: #1 Oh. # 847: #2 And we # {D: here} Interviewer: #1 Oh okay. # 847: #2 {NW} # so Interviewer: I like #1 that. # 847: #2 That's an # elaborate name to give west Dallas and the projects and then festered in the disease infested rats and roaches and all you know so uh. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh Say uh this is how people psych themselves out. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 And who # all lives in west Dallas? 847: West Dallas is a is an area that uh predominantly I guess it's might at one time it was almost fifty fifty black and brown not fifty fifty because then you had a population of whites that went in there and you don't have that. This is very population of whites is very low in west Dallas right now. uh You mostly get uh citizens that live out there now are either black or brown. Interviewer: uh-huh are there more browns? I have I haven't #1 even asked you the # 847: #2 Well # Interviewer: #1 {X} # 847: #2 well what has happened # uh No I doubt if there are more browns in west Dallas than there are in uh say blacks in west Dallas what we you have a situation now say in just west of downtown which you could almost call uh north Dallas so far as we uh minorities talk about east west north and south in a more limited term than uh uh say do whites. uh Interviewer: {X} 847: Alright let let's take for instance uh east Dallas. Interviewer: okay 847: I grew up in east Dallas east Dallas to me was a uh pocket area contained uh perhaps by uh encompassed by maybe uh ten square blocks of the area of east Dallas that I lived in which was called the string. Interviewer: The what? 847: The string. Well and it was a string because and it it only represented a minute portion of that so called black east Dallas population. Where it was the most populous part of the black community in east Dallas was uh uh divided by a railroad track and a bridge that you had to get over to the other side that we called the sands. We called it the sands because at that time there were very few paved streets down there they had red sand in the streets. Interviewer: Oh. 847: And uh it got called uh {X} sands and uh it was most populous area uh in east Dallas because then the government projects was built down in that area so then that had a high concentration of people in a small area. Well the limited area that uh uh why minorities associate the limited area is that they uh seldom ever think beyond those boundaries which have encompassed that ghettos they live in. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: uh For instance uh uh when you talk to whites in Dallas they usually consider all of the southern part of the counties being south Dallas. Well then blacks uh before that you started moving into uh the south and southwest part of Oak Cliff uh Oak Cliff was Oak Cliff and it was a very distinctive thing you didn't think about south Dallas because then you only consider south Dallas as being that part where the blacks live in south Dallas. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh West Dallas uh is has been uh perhaps uh the greater territorial area than any other part of town. North Dallas was generally thought about uh within this area that we're talking about now that perhaps is a six to eight block uh radius that uh would cover all of north Dallas and in uh in blacks' minds of course uh. Interviewer: What do you think is about the northern bound northern boundary of north Dallas? 847: Well now we have more been been more prone to call that north Dallas. but usually when we moved part past uh Swiss Avenue I don't even think Swiss out Lemmon uh cross Oak Lawn course then the- you have the Oak Lawn area which is a part of north Dallas Oak Lawn is a very distinctive {C: noise} uh part from the rest of Dallas of course then Oak Lawn sort of divided what we call north Dallas and Highland Park. Uh either from uh Oak Lawn to uh University Park but it just wasn't related to as being north Dallas. Interviewer: mm-kay would you explain to me what Highland Park and University Park are? 847: okay Highland Park and University Park is everybody's mind is that everybody lives in uh I won't I won't say everybody I'd say that uh ninety nine and forty four one hundred percent of the minorities who think about Highland Park and University Park will soon tell you rich white folks live out there. Uh cuz the only way that you can really say that uh Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh there's only that is the best candid way to describe that and it's the truth. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. 847: So. {C: laughing} Interviewer: It's true. 847: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 That's right. # {NW} 847: I I can remember that uh when in uh Highland Park if a black male was caught in Highland Park after the sun went down he was usually stopped and queried and then most likely arrested by Highland Park police because then well what are you doing out here. Interviewer: uh something not really great. 847: I drive out that way occasionally now and people still give you that old stare. oh what are you doing out here #1 you can read that look # Interviewer: #2 uh uh-huh # #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 all the time # Interviewer: You'd just be coming to pick up your wife who's cleaning somebody's house or something huh? 847: I'll tell you damnedest thing that happened to me uh few nights ago I was out far north Dallas L-B-J. uh uh I was out at uh car dealership out there looking at cars. And my car was parked on the {C: thump} street and I was {C: noise} walking around to get in the car and there was this old rich white man he had to be rich he had a real big Fleetwood Brougham. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Brougham we call it Brougham. {C: pronunciation} Interviewer: #1 mm-kay I # 847: #2 Get that one down. # Interviewer: got that one down. 847: Yeah. Interviewer: #1 {NW} # 847: #2 {NW} # uh This cad was a half a block away from me going down the street and he locked his doors. Interviewer: {NW} I don't believe it. 847: It hit him you know like when he passed by me he gave me the old eagle eye you know what are you doing out here #1 and it hit him # Interviewer: #2 uh-huh # 847: maybe I'd better lock the door. Interviewer: Yeah he was that looks like a dangerous one. 847: And I said Damn how I you know how I could just catch figure that I'm gonna you know {NS} super black I had to be. Interviewer: Yeah. #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 {NW} # With my cape on Interviewer: {NW} #1 Yeah, yeah. # 847: #2 That's how I would catch him. # Then I was at a service station out there. This dude got out to put some gas in his car. A self service. He looked over at me and I'll be damned if he didn't lock his car doors and he's outside putting gas in the damn thing. #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 {NW} # {NW} That's funny. 847: #1 {NW} # Interviewer: #2 That is really funny. # Oh that's good that you gotten where you can laugh about that kind of thing the kinda thing that happens to me it of course it's different but as a woman I yeah I haven't been able to laugh at some of the stuff that happens to me like I went to the grocery store the other day okay manager never seen him before I think he's new didn't know him or anything anyway he came up and um I was at the express checkout you know the one where you're supposed to go fast. I stand there and I was getting annoyed anyway because they're supposed to be just right there and I had to wait like five minutes or more and I had two things. And um this guy came up and said um he took my money and he rang it up you know and he said will that be all little lady? And if I had been real fast on the draw I would have said that'll be all little man. But course I didn't think to do that until I got back out to my car but I mean smoke just coming out of my ears and I just #1 go ugh. # 847: #2 {NW} # Well #1 that's # Interviewer: #2 but it was # not funny. {NW} 847: That was either a chauvinistic approach to speaking to a lady either he was flirting how old was he? Interviewer: He wasn't flirting. 847: He wasn't #1 flirting. # Interviewer: #2 I could tell # that. He wasn't he was in a hurry he wanted to get rid of me #1 and move on to the next person. # 847: #2 He wanted to get rid of you. # Yeah. Interviewer: #1 Yeah and he was # 847: #2 You can read # that one. Always. Interviewer: Yeah. ugh 847: As if to say I hope you don't have anything else. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. {NW} Okay let's see did we take care of the low social and economic neighborhoods? Did we get through to them all? 847: Oh I I believe we might have because we we talked about uh course no we didn't mention there's a section in Oak Cliff that was called the bottom. uh Now the bottom was loc- situated just below the basin of the uh levee system that had been put up uh to like a damming system for the Trinity River. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh These houses were situated like up in a hole. uh I mean that whole area is sorta flat after going down. Interviewer: Yeah I bet it flooded too. {C: background noise} 847: It flooded over there all the time. Just flooded all the time. Interviewer: ugh 847: uh There were a lotta houses like built up on uh what I call stilts. Interviewer: {X} 847: uh so like {X} in Japan. Interviewer: #1 Yeah # 847: #2 But # uh really not that bad though it just used to during raining season it would flood out there course one thing the sewage systems weren't that good. uh And it was just the cheapest land that people could probably buy over there. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: And that was the in that in that area uh was perhaps uh in Oak Cliff the area blacks uh the area that blacks lived in in Oak Cliff uh probably encompassed no more than a uh five six blocks radius and that was all of Oak Cliff. Interviewer: Goodness. 847: So far as the blacks were concerned. Interviewer: I see that was Oak Cliff. 847: Yeah that was Oak Cliff that's Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh I live out in Kessler Park now. And uh I was telling an old teacher of mine uh so he's saw him last week and he said where do you live and I said in Kessler Park and he said you and how many others? Uh what he meant was that uh he related to Kessler Park as being like uh synonymous to Oak Cliff with Highland Park and University Park is to uh north Dallas. Interviewer: ah 847: #1 uh that # Interviewer: #2 I get it. # Interviewer: Because you meant a real small area you meant 847: Well he he thought well he what he was alluding to was that uh you just didn't hear blacks ever saying that they live in Kessler Park. They used to work in Kessler Park cuz because Kessler Park is a very exclusive area where you have mansions uh just imagine I I see homes out there now that are maybe forty years old that had to cost two hundred thousand dollars #1 to build # Interviewer: #2 mm # 847: back then so uh Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: no we didn't say we lived in Kessler Park. Best people'd say is I work in Kessler Park. Interviewer: #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 {NW} # Interviewer: uh-huh okay uh okay are your what names are there for various white neighborhoods that are low in social and economic status? 847: Well ironically let me tell you what about that. uh There were very few neighborhoods when I was growing up that we ever thought that poor white people lived in. Interviewer: Is that right? 847: Yeah. Except for in west Dallas. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh I kind of associated west Dallas with stories that my daddy used to tell me because then uh Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker used to live in west Dallas. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Uh and during his early gambling days they used to hang out at his place. Interviewer: Is that #1 right? # 847: #2 yeah # uh Interviewer: Ha ha that's neat. 847: Yeah that's the good thing about having a dad as old as my dad is #1 you you know # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # 847: like I can related to a lotta history that uh other people just can't relate to uh and then by him being an outgoing uninhibited individual Interviewer: Yeah. 847: sporting gentleman Interviewer: #1 Yeah. # 847: #2 gambler or # hustler you know Interviewer: Yeah. {NW} You know you {X} 847: where they have it all. uh You know so consequently I have a lotta people that uh I have a great deal of knowledge about uh years ago in Dallas. Interviewer: uh-huh uh-huh 847: It's sorta like firsthand information and I my daddy has never been one to tell a lie that put directly so I kinda believe most of the thing #1 that uh # Interviewer: #2 Yeah. # Yeah. That's neat. Um where are some um areas where poor white people live now? 847: Oh Interviewer: Yeah? 847: uh Interviewer: Presently. 847: Well what we consider as being where poor whites live in Dallas even though they there are a great number of poor whites in the inner city most of 'em out in the county area in these small little communities like uh uh Garland. uh Mesquite. uh that {C: noises} DeSoto is growing to be a middle class town now. uh Balch Springs. uh Grand Prairie. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: uh Irving. Irving is becoming a more of a uh middle class city now. uh Course you know what's creating that though. What's creating that is the white flight from the inner city. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: Yeah so uh but you still have uh your greatest concentration of poor whites in east Dallas. Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 In east # Dallas County at least. Interviewer: mm-hmm mm Okay what are some neighborhoods that um blacks who are higher in socioeconomic status live in? 847: Where do they live? Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh Now there there is a very exclusive what I would call an exclusive neighborhood there are some blacks who are segregated out in that neighborhood on that old street called McShann Road who was named after the McShann family. #1 uh # Interviewer: #2 Where's that? # 847: South off of Preston Road. Uh it's near uh L-B-J Freeway off of Preston. uh Most of the blacks that live in that area are {NS} all the professionals are high professionals like doctors dentists and so forth. um You have several persons that won't say several I say several two or three that are that are out there that uh have made their business uh have made their fortune in the retail business one in particular like in the liquor business. uh One fellow who owned a restaurant became a millionaire he lives out in that area. Uh now Oak Cliff is an area where you have a a mixture of the economic levels of blacks that live out there who do live uh in the same neighborhood in comparable uh uh levels of home so far as cost is concerned. Uh and they could range anywhere from a maid porter doctor lawyer what have you. Interviewer: #1 mm-hmm # 847: #2 uh # It depends on the sacrifices that individuals have been able to make. uh At one time there was no real distinction between where anybody really lived. Uh at one time what we call over here north Dallas is where most of your aristocratic blacks lived uh like along Thomas Avenue uh and Washington uh {X} avenue over in those areas Interviewer: #1 uh-huh # 847: #2 which is # right around built around in this area. Interviewer: uh-huh 847: uh uh Interviewer: What about Hamilton Park? What's that? #1 {X} # 847: #2 Well # Hamilton Park uh is an area that was started back in the early fifties uh uh what had happened was that uh in the inner city there were was not enough houses uh uh there was not enough uh uh dwelling facilities for blacks in town so then they started a uh community out in how- in Hamilton Park whereas it uh it was in the fifties where particularly affluent blacks uh economics uh conditions started to uh on an upswing and they started building houses and homes out in that area. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: Uh so Hamilton Park would be to me the first area that was exclusively built for those minorities that had enough money to uh uh say buy homes uh only only in a large scale. Uh the rest of the houses and homes that I can uh think about that uh uh blacks moved into in Dallas uh were always that they took over where the whites left off. uh I just was over in south Dallas uh which is right in the heart of south Dallas right in the middle of the ghetto now. I can remember when blacks' homes were bombed in that area because they started buying into what was called a white area. Interviewer: hmm 847: #1 You know. # Interviewer: #2 mm-hmm # 847: So uh and that was in the fifties. {NS} Interviewer: Not that long ago. 847: Yeah that wasn't that long ago I would imagine it was around between fifty two and fifty five that these #1 things # Interviewer: #2 mm # 847: happened. Interviewer: mm-hmm Besides highland park and university park where would you say uh most whites live who are you know of upper social and economic brackets? 847: Well Kessler Park. uh west Oak Cliff which is fastly becoming a black area it's just what part of uh what people down here don't particularly understand. De facto segregation is going on they don't uh really know it yet but it's been happening for years. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh So now the uh {NS} Preston Hollow. Interviewer: mm-hmm 847: uh Which is just beyond University Park, Highland Park going north. Richardson. uh Which uh which you mentioned Hamilton Park Hamilton Park is in the Richardson Independent school district. Interviewer: School district. 847: uh There are in the areas that border L-B-J Freeway moving into Richardson, Carrollton, Farmer's Branch {NS} uh {NS} all the way around to Irving it's sorta like a circle they're going into now. uh {NS} White Rock area. White Rock is that section of east Dallas that we didn't generally think {C: buzz} about uh any {C: thumps} farther than uh say uh uh Grand Avenue {C: buzz} or Samuels Avenue where the apartment area started out back before there. {C: buzz, thumps} uh {C: thumps} As an indication of what the uh White Rock area might be uh I talked about uh {C: noises} Interviewer: White rock #1 area. # 847: #2 Well # as a matter of reason why we {D: talk about a} White Rock area you know I mentioned earlier that we uh got Lawther Lane which is right around White Rock Lake. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: uh It's so uh if the world's richest man lived out there certainly I know some rich people in White Rock so. {C: laughing} Interviewer: Yeah that's true. 847: uh That just about hit most of the uh uh areas now of course we're going back uh in north Dallas uh {C: noise} just beyond Love Field area across Northwest Highway. {C: background speech} Now there are {C: background speech} homes and uh individuals that are living out in that area. {C: background speech} uh I would say that's bordered between uh Inwood Road back to uh Central Expressway. uh {C: background speech} Uh that is an area in there that I've mentioned that you have a {C: background speech} uh a great concentration of rich Jews that live in that area. Interviewer: Yeah. 847: So uh Interviewer: That's right. 847: You know so it's sorta like you {D: pick at on up} outta that one.