Interviewer:  {X} Right here. {NS} Now that's the microphone right there. It doesn't matter if they get me. But the embarrassing thing is a lotta times I listen to these tapes later and my voice is just this clear it sounds great and the informant sounds like they're way off in another room you know. ugh You know my {X} same school. because I saw you like I think {X}
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  And now you {X} {NS} Most of my classes are downtown {X} and one day I was uh I was working on a lab down there this was like last spring I guess. And I was sitting there and one of the audiologists went by and asked for {X} is out in the hall just going by he said have you had Calvin McCoy before? And I said wait I know that person. Was that you did you go for a hearing test?
847:  Yeah that was me.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 uh # As a matter of fact that person that uh asked {X} one of 'em I don't know which one it mighta been was working for the doctor that I go to.
Interviewer:  Oh I see.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  I see.
847:  uh But I have tried to go on my own really go to county because I thought that the doctors that I was going to uh did not uh he just wasn't satisfying me.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And I did discover that uh there was a hearing loss that I have suffered.
Interviewer:  Oh #1 really? #
847:  #2 um # uh from the uh {X} to next doctor.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And the doctor had never given me a hearing test and that bothered me #1 too. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  So I'd get better on my own and eventually the uh this last doctor that I went to I told him about my test with {X} and he says well Calvin I I would just hear it all cuz now and let her do it and lo and behold it was the lady who had given me {X} uh
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh um at county.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh that's funny.
847:  #1 Yeah and #
Interviewer:  #2 You # get her name?
847:  mm It was a real funny name. Kim, Rim something like that. I have her card now I don't know exactly where it is. #1 um #
Interviewer:  #2 I have # {X} but I don't think she was working long hours this weekend. #1 um #
847:  #2 Now this # is this person's last name.
Interviewer:  Oh.
847:  Wasn't a common name.
Interviewer:  I don't know all of 'em like I might know more
847:  But she was concerned about if I was just shopping around and that's what my doctor told me said uh thought I just was concerned about if you were just shopping around cuz she knew I was going to several doctors and she had recommended two or three doctors to me.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah? #
847:  #2 So um #
Interviewer:  {X} I mean I could #1 {X} #
847:  #2 Well he told # well I guess she was telling him for his benefit this cat might be a uh a kook or something you know I know he's going to all kinda doctors.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And uh
Interviewer:  Maybe he's a hypochondriac.
847:  Yeah so um I'm not a hypochondriac but I just know that uh I explained to him he said oh no he said that's he said if you're not satisfied with your doctor he said sometimes a physical problem uh can be created by a mental disturbance by mental disturbances but you don't have any confidence in the person that's treating you.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And uh I explained to him that I knew the answers that I was getting that I wasn't satisfied with it. And I wasn't perhaps {D: quite honestly} totally satisfied with him. And he says well what all have they done? And I explained to him all of the things that I have done even like getting this um um allergy test.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  It cost me two hundred and fifty dollars.
Interviewer:  Yeah I believe #1 it I have #
847:  #2 You know well #
Interviewer:  it too #1 {X} #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  {NS} #1 {X} #
847:  #2 {X} #
Interviewer:  healthy {X}
847:  Um fella named {B}
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Course he works out at uh and the professional building out at {X}
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And the doctor that sent me to him the guy who referred me to him was a doctor {B} and he spelled his name {B} The very way I would spell {B} I had him {D: singing}.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  #1 And I #
Interviewer:  #2 Probably # {X} #1 {X} #
847:  #2 I that's # and I told him I said you know you have perhaps the only correct spelling {B} He said what do you mean? I {B} and that's the way most people pronounce it, they don't say {B}
Interviewer:  That's true. #1 Very true. #
847:  #2 You know uh # {B} #1 you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Nobody # spells it that way. {NW}
847:  #1 I don't know #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Anyway like I said I ended up with these things here from uh my uh allergy test.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Which were they put 'em in three categories. Uh one was pollen and grain and um in pollen and grain there was an insect pollen that's considered as {D: heavy}. Now the insect pollen I don't know what that one is but it's anywho and uh the pollen that uh that grows from uh.
Interviewer:  Like flowers #1 and things? #
847:  #2 Like flowers # and trees and whatever pollen comes #1 from #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  uh And then he they took three categories of those or four and there was the trees like the willow maple, oak and a {X} I don't know what that is.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  And the spring pollens what they call spring pollens {X} uh {NS} mountain cedar and whatever else was on there I don't know exactly what that is. Wheat bur, dock weeds plantation weeds uh and these are things that you can get from. In a uh in late spring dock weed and the plantation weed will grow.
Interviewer:  I think I know what dock weed's like #1 haven't heard of plantation. #
847:  #2 uh # And they call those windblown pollens.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  Uh then there's your ragweed uh sagebrush tumbleweeds and cocklebur.
Interviewer:  #1 Like little grass burs? #
847:  #2 You know what a cocklebur is? # Yeah. {NS}
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  {X} grass burs {D: were green the color of} cockleburs and that's what the doctor told me it was and I know that says well you mean what do you call 'em, stickers uh.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 We didn't # call 'em cockleburs. There is a difference between the cocklebur and the what we used to in west Texas call a goathead. A goathead is a it's a um it's a sticker like it sticks you if you step #1 on it. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm # #1 It's dry. #
847:  #2 It # and yeah #1 it's #
Interviewer:  #2 Awful. #
847:  dry and it's very hard and it has very sharp it's it's just like a a knife they are you know #1 but uh #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm #
847:  the uh more prone to come off of it, And then a cocklebur is not as quite as bad. Now a cocklebur has sorta more like a furry type
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 in #
Interviewer:  I know what you're talking #1 about that. #
847:  #2 It was a # {D: he said} he said. Now the stick
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  well that reminds me of a cocklebur.
Interviewer:  Yeah it's like that.
847:  Now the goathead that little sticker.
Interviewer:  Big, they're bigger is one thing I think they're big.
847:  No they they're smaller they're about the size of the head of this thing here. And it might have three or four little prongs that are sticking off of it but you talking about something that'll hurt you.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And I've seen dogs #1 step on it. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {D: socks}.
847:  Yeah. They really hurt too.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah.
847:  So now I know the difference #1 between #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 you know the # difference between a cocklebur and a goathead.
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 That's very # important if you live in west Texas like tumbleweeds
Interviewer:  That's right it's #1 hanging #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  in the air.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW} Tell me again we've been over this but it's been so long. Where you were born and where how long you lived where and you know where you when you moved to where and
847:  Where I was I was born? in {B} Texas and that's in south Texas. Uh I guess you could say it's south central {NW} But I I don't I didn't live there that long I lived uh um when I say I was born in {B} that was my mother's home.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Where she was born. And it just so happened she was there when I uh when the urge came for me to come out.
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  So. {C: laughing} And meet the world.
Interviewer:  Therefore you have to put that on #1 forms right like. #
847:  #2 Yeah you gotta put that down there yeah #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh we uh Course the family was here in Dallas. uh but I spent a great deal of my growing up uh I would say my I what I would consider as my formative years in {B} because that's where my grandmother was and I spent a lotta time with her.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Uh at I I remember at age five my aunt was teaching in west Texas in a little town called O'Donnell Texas #1 that's #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh. # Yeah I've heard of O'Donnell.
847:  #1 You know where O'Donnell is? #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  Forty miles
Interviewer:  I used to date a boy from O'Donnell.
847:  well you know Hoss Cartwright was #1 from O'Donnell. #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. # {NW}
847:  #1 uh and I #
Interviewer:  #2 O'Donnell's # claim to fame.
847:  Well but you see when they printed this in the paper they said he was from uh De Kalb or Harris, Texas or someplace like that. And I said Dan Blocker perhaps the thing that happened to him was the same thing that happened to me with Calvert, Texas and De Kalb, Texas to him. Cuz he actually grew up in O'Donnell. And uh I knew the family knew him and uh it was always look at that when I see uh his biography and they all say you know Dan Blocker in De Kalb Texas and I #1 say #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  that's a lie you know and I
Interviewer:  Is he really?
847:  Yeah it's
Interviewer:  {D: I'll be.}
847:  uh
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Yeah his r- # his uncle was named J-D. uh His daddy was an uh worked in the market all the time he owned a grocery store in O'Donnell.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh So I knew the whole family. #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 Was he always this # great big guy? #1 {X} #
847:  #2 Always big. #
Interviewer:  huh
847:  And he was uh sorta like a typical big cowboy kid who grows up in a small town. He was a hell raiser.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  I remember.
Interviewer:  Isn't that funny.
847:  Yeah they bought him uh he had a old black Chevrolet and he was going to Hardin-Simmons.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  and he used #1 to come home #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  and raise all kinds of hell he played football at O'Donnell High. And that team was a was the yellow jackets and I don't think {D: he used his} jacket at all you know cuz he was such a huge thing. When he was a when he was fifteen years old he looked you know he must've been weighing two fifty. uh But he was a big kid. #1 you know. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 Probably had to # be a kid like that. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 That # He was he you know when I say he was a hell raiser he was just mischievous.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 He was # always into something.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  And I don't remember that big smile he always he would do something and just smile you know.
Interviewer:  He could kinda get away with murder #1 with that smile. #
847:  #2 He yeah that # smile let him #1 get. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  They had a good they have a good family there. {D: Uncle J-D.} uh Always thought J-D was kinda queer. He wasn't married but I knew {D: nothing about queers} but I always knew there was something wrong with J-D.
Interviewer:  Not really straight #1 he's not gay. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  and {NS} he {NS}
Interviewer:  Every time you know living in a place as big as this everyone's home the phone'll ring and you know the person just hangs up and I don't know if it's somebody {X} or what but every time that happens when my husband called me there {X} #1 They hang up. #
847:  #2 And #
Interviewer:  huh
847:  that's happened to me a thousand times
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And I was telling you about J-D my my sister my aunt got sick and my sister was gonna was uh was uh was going to school at in Austin at uh at that time Tillotson.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And uh she came out and they let her do her practice teaching they used that as her practice #1 teaching #
Interviewer:  #2 oh uh-huh #
847:  so while my aunt was in the hospital uh my sister sent me to the store with a note and her handwriting was legible but J-D made a comment like oh my god I thought all schoolteachers had pretty handwriting.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And of course I had to go back and tell her what he said #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # #1 oh ouch. #
847:  #2 {X} #
Interviewer:  She had a few choice words for him.
847:  Yeah she wrote it back in a note. #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  It was too hard for me to tell it #1 when so. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 That's # funny. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 And and # all the time that she was out there it was like she had a running feud with J-D I never will forget J-D. She probably won't either.
Interviewer:  They just did not hit it off huh?
847:  No they just didn't hit it off you know uh. First of all my sister was uh usually proper and prompt and all. And you know being out in in O'Donnell my aunt had all of the uh all of the trappings of a small town black schoolteacher
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  getting credit from the white establishment.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  You know she's not even going to say Mr. J-D. #1 And then my sister you know #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  That's funny.
847:  Yeah he you know it was just a real feud between #1 them. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  Well I you know all that time I guess he said you know and his attitude was just young smart black coming in here educated you know she just had.
Interviewer:  No respect.
847:  He had #1 no respect for #
Interviewer:  #2 No respect. #
847:  her at all.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 That is funny. #
847:  #2 {X} # you know but uh.
Interviewer:  Well tell me about um Dallas and um how old were you when you moved to Dallas I mean you you came back here as soon as your mother?
847:  Well uh I guess at infancy I was in Dallas you know back between Dallas and with my grandmother. And then I started living with my aunt. I started school with her.
Interviewer:  In O'Donnell?
847:  Yeah she didn't have and she was the first black teacher in O'Donnell.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  Uh when she started teaching there uh it was in an old church that had no floor or anything they had to put the desks on the ground. And they built the little red brick building you know #1 large brick. #
Interviewer:  #2 She didn't she didn't # teach in the regular school?
847:  No. #1 uh-uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  Well you see the reason why they needed a a a black schoolteacher in O'Donnell was because uh a lot of blacks migrated into O'Donnell around about cotton picking time. And there were a lotta large farms out there because in that area around Lubbock and all those counties out there uh was the largest cotton producing area in the country at that time.
Interviewer:  I see
847:  And uh there were large farms and they had a lotta blacks that worked on the farms and they uh recognized the fact that they needed a black school. So uh I don't know this was back in the forties must've been forty three forty four somewhere around in there maybe forty five that uh she uh was teaching was serving in a little town called Givens, Texas and somehow or another she got word about this job in O'Donnell and that's where she went. And
Interviewer:  Probably had never seen this place or she had.
847:  She hadn't.
Interviewer:  Wow. {X}
847:  #1 Well #
Interviewer:  #2 {D: Horrible.} #
847:  she was making I believe at the time she started fifteen dollars a week. uh something like.
Interviewer:  Was that better than before? #1 What was she #
847:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  making before?
847:  Well I think uh when she was out serving in Givens, Texas she was making she was making less than that.
Interviewer:  #1 I would #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  think they'd have to pay me a lot of money whole lot more to go to O'Donnell to do anything. {NW}
847:  Well the one good thing it did in O'Donnell was that uh they provided her with lodging.
Interviewer:  Okay. #1 That's for #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  certain.
847:  And that the house that we uh stayed in was like a compound operation there. Uh it was in the back of this white family's house that faced the street and we were back around like a compound they and they rented that compound out to blacks.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  And it was just uh a row of old stucco buildings. Uh run one one room little things with it reminds me of my efficiency apartment that I had. uh Not much larger than this room here.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  And there was an outdoors toilet. And that was a real trip in the wintertime #1 you know how the wind blows out there. #
Interviewer:  #2 I'm sure in O'Donnell. #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW} Had to need to go real bad.
847:  Yeah you know when you have to go in a #1 sandstorm that's real good. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  Yeah it was you talking about happy days.
Interviewer:  #1 oh #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {D: Bad old days.} #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  But uh somehow or another we had fun while I was out there and then they they did this real big thing. uh The church got too small and uh with this being in the late forties uh the uh military had no use for all these barracks that they had housed the soldiers in.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And somewhere out in that area must've been in Stanton, Texas or somewhere that uh they had some barracks up for sale. So they had two of the old barracks buildings hauled to O'Donnell. And they bought a patch of land out near a field and that's where they set the buildings and joined them together and made a school and a living quarters. There were we had a library two restrooms indoors #1 too. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah # wow.
847:  That was like #1 really moving up #
Interviewer:  #2 luxury. #
847:  #1 you know. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  uh She stayed uh remained as the uh only teacher uh after that for around I guess let's see it was nineteen fifty uh it was in fifty one that they hired no it was in fifty they hired another teacher. So they ended up with two black teachers and my aunt was the principal of a two teacher #1 school. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 you know {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW} Funny to {D: think about} anyway.
847:  Yeah so I stayed in O'Donnell with her until uh uh like I mentioned my sister came out when she was sick she was a diabetic. She had one leg had a foot amputated.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Gangrene # had set up from wearing a shoe that was too small. Not too small it developed a blister on her toe. uh and uh From the effects of that it created uh you know the deterioration that comes with uh uh diabetics when they have something like that happen to 'em. And they amputated the foot then they had to amputate the leg below the knee and for some reason when you have amputations like that diabetics it affects the other limb. And uh within the next year she had to have the other leg amputated below the knee.
Interviewer:  #1 That bad? #
847:  #2 And # when I was twelve I had just turned twelve.
Interviewer:  And how old was your sister?
847:  Uh my sister must've been I was twelve mm no I mighta been ten or eleven. So that means that she must've been twenty.
Interviewer:  Oh she was that much older than you.
847:  mm-hmm Yeah. That's right because my sister got married when she was seventeen. I remember that that was a real {D: fast one} she finished high school at fif- she started college at fifteen. {NS} And
Interviewer:  Must be awful smart.
847:  Yeah she's brilliant. {X} um Has almost a full academic uh
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  but she hadn't finished college. she fell in love with the Pullman porter on a train. You see like when she would leave Dallas going to Austin on the train
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh
Interviewer:  It was the same guy every time huh?
847:  Yeah and he had just gotten outta service
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  back then when she started college. So I guess she must've started college in forty after forty five forty six forty seven somewhere around there.
Interviewer:  There weren't many women period going to college then.
847:  No there wasn't uh and she's a very good looking girl too long pretty black hair straight {NS} uh what black people call high yellow.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 Yeah you know and uh #
Interviewer:  #2 I've heard of that right. #
847:  uh
Interviewer:  Now wait let me ask you about high yellow is that does that mean skin color too or is it just the hair or what is #1 it? #
847:  #2 No # high yellow's skin color.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And uh you and uh that's because perhaps uh uh the brown pigmentation mixed with uh the uh uh white pigmentation you come up with a yellowish glow to the skin. uh And she had that yellowish brown
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 between # white color you #1 know. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm #
847:  #1 And uh #
Interviewer:  #2 That's really pretty. #
847:  Yeah. My uh great grandmother on my my grandfather's mother was a Cherokee Indian. And uh color came out in her and my grandfather was he was dark skinned. It looked like an Indian had straight hair high cheekbones
Interviewer:  #1 hmm #
847:  #2 and # his uh he was a reddish brown color.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah he was a good looking old man. And uh he and my mother didn't talk about {X} something I guess thought it too.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # uh we uh uh you know so that's she was good looking you know like I could imagine what would happen uh Mama'd put her on the train she'd go to Austin. And that was the route that this fella was working. Dallas to Austin San Antonio to Houston whatever way that train was going. And by seeing her coming home for Thanksgiving Christmas, and Easter holidays and summer things like that I just imagine they struck up a pretty good relationship you know my mother hated the fella. And uh
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  my uh my sister's excuse was that she didn't like my stepfather. uh And she said she didn't like him cuz uh he was so ignorant and really my stepfather was an ignorant man. But he was a good man and that's what happens when you start educating the kids in the family they start looking around at who's ignorant in the family.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  {NS} And uh she just could not understand why my mother had such a big ignorant man for a husband. #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 So she # just had to get out.
847:  #1 She had to get away from you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah yeah. #
847:  Uh and and he was real crude {D: but bless} he was a very good man you know like he'd sit around and tell tales about uh the boogeyman and the ghost and and she just hated that.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  and she said {D: you'll ruin the little rebels}. and he says #1 well #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Tell me about the boogeyman cuz that's a question on here what the boogeyman is
847:  Well
Interviewer:  Who's the boogeyman?
847:  well let me tell you #1 what I I it #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  I always knew that we were supposed to be afraid for the boogeyman.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And it took me getting grown before I recognized what they were talking about. uh The boogeyman must've been a fella that they created to look something like uh the blob. And the blob then have you have you seen the blob the comic books?
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 Yeah #
847:  #2 You know # he comes out and he's just really mad for nothing.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And the boogeyman came from boogers. Boogers are the things that happen from the secretion of uh mucus in the nose #1 and you get #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. #
847:  a booger up there. So then you know they scared the hell out of kids well and you know {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 The # #1 boogeyman was actually #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  he was actually the booger man #1 you know. {C laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # That is pretty gross.
847:  #1 Real gross could you imagine though #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  a massive what we would #1 call #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. #
847:  #1 muc- #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  you know like what I just call mucus. And it's not mucus we call it snot.
Interviewer:  Right that's what we call it.
847:  Yeah you know here's the the snot man #1 {D: coming at you}. #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 A big one. # {NW}
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 That's pretty funny. #
847:  But she could not stand you know like my my sister just didn't like my stepfather.
Interviewer:  I see.
847:  But I loved him and he you know he
Interviewer:  Did she get alright? After after her legs were amputated did she get all #1 be alright? #
847:  #2 No no # cuz my aunt uh
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 It was my # aunt woulda had #1 {D: palpitations} #
Interviewer:  #2 oh okay okay #
847:  uh My mother told her that I couldn't stay with her anymore and I was eleven then. And I guess a week after that she had a stroke and died.
Interviewer:  My goodness ooh.
847:  And I think it must of been pressure she was hype- hypertensive in the first place said hype- everybody in the family has hypertension including myself.
Interviewer:  mm #1 {X} #
847:  #2 She # could not figure out and I I realized this after many years the sudden illness that came up because she was up walking in her walker. She had gotten an artificial leg so {X} was right down the street and every time I pass by it I think about her.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  uh And she was a you know had a really a lot of stamina and she was gonna walk again one day.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And it was just the fact that if I couldn't go back with her she had nobody to go with her.
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  And uh she hadn't uh I had been with her oh over six seven years.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And it was uh well it was a traumatic experience for her to think that her legs were gone but I was her legs I was her everything. uh I moved in when I was nine years old eight nine ten. I was cooking washing cleaning uh taking care of business like paying bills writing checks. uh You know so it was like we had a real relationship #1 you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  And uh
Interviewer:  Well were you here in Dallas this is when when your mother said you know?
847:  No I I was in Houston with my aunt uh because we have relatives in Houston.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And uh {X} Houston and that's where we were staying for the summer.` We'd always like we would either go to Mexico uh down to Calvert to Houston or summers you know we just traveled around you know like it was a big experience for me being with her. And we were in Houston during that time and my mother came out to Houston on a train and it got it was you know it into a big hassle about me. You know my mother says you know well that's my son and you're just taking him away from me you know and she said uh I'm sorry you don't have any children that you can stay with you now. And it was just I mean it was a week after that uh oh she just said well you know I I'm gonna go back to school I'm gonna make a living and #1 you know big hassle. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  uh #1 That's #
Interviewer:  #2 That #
847:  something in the family we don't ever talk about. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah # right. #1 how did you #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  feel at that time? Or did you know that that was all going on?
847:  Well I didn't like it.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know. And I think what it was my mother felt like I had started not respecting her. uh You know it was a jealousy thing I #1 think #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  between my mother and my aunt about me and uh it was just one of those #1 tragic things that can happen to families you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Were you the # last kid were you the baby?
847:  Uh no. {NS} uh My brother let me see Charles is must be six years younger than I so I was the baby for six years so to speak.
Interviewer:  uh-huh yeah.
847:  And that creates a problem too.
Interviewer:  Yeah I'm sure.
847:  Yeah it really does create a problem. uh Like a lotta people say the middle child is usually uh #1 gets slighted. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  But in my case I ended up with a lot of attention by my aunt who had no children
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  and from my grandmother since I was her baby grandchild and she didn't expect to have any more grandchildren uh and then along came my brother.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 You know after those six years. #
Interviewer:  Afterthought.
847:  Yeah. So I really didn't care about whether I stayed with my mother or not.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know. uh
Interviewer:  You would get mom to {X} huh?
847:  Yeah I was living like a little king.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 You know. #
Interviewer:  You were probably a real brat. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Yeah you know I was a # I was a turbulent lord Fauntleroy.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know in O'Donnell everybody recognized me in the town. You know that's the you know that's the schoolteacher's nephew.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And uh I could go anywhere in white O'Donnell that I wanted to and I got treated real nice.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know uh and you know you had to there was a distinction that was made between me and other black kids in town and I r- #1 I kind of yeah you know I enjoyed #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah you had to enjoy it. #
847:  that you know. In fact when I look back on it you know that was some of my happiest days.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh well did you come to Dallas then when you were what eleven?
847:  Yeah I was eleven I was I remember very distinctly I had just uh I had just turned twelve as a matter of fact my birthday's in July. And this happened in August cuz I remember we were preparing to go back to school in O'Donnell.
Interviewer:  mm mm-hmm
847:  And I started grade school here I was in eighth grade they didn't have any junior highs then.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm yeah
847:  So I started over at uh the {X} grade school in Dallas uh in the eighth grade I had gone to school in Dallas previously but it hadn't been for any length of time. #1 You know so #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  it'd be six months here and I'd leave and go back to O'Donnell cuz I just could not take Dallas. Uh you know and it there was a big there was a big difference in going to the city school and then going to a school where my aunt taught me.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 Yeah # when she was the only teacher.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And that was a real trick she taught eight classes eight grades every day. Grades one through eight.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Well the good thing about that for for the kids was this. Is that if you were in the second grade you knew what was going on in the third grade cuz we were all in the same room.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And if you were sharp enough in the fifth grade you could read what the eighth graders were doing.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 So when I # came here and I was in eighth grade I was much farther advanced than the kids in Dallas because I had been exposed to the environment ever since I started school. #1 I w- #
Interviewer:  #2 isn't that # interesting.
847:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 You would # think it would be the other way around cuz O'Donnell doesn't have any background with anything going to a one room school and everything.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Other way around.
847:  You know uh they uh would I was looking at getting one of the {X} they gonna do all of the thirty six plays by Shakespeare you know in the next six years. Course they gonna use British actors. But I was reading Shakespeare when I was in fifth grade and it was because our literature books that the eighth graders were using had Shakespeare in it so I was reading Shakespeare you know when I was uh
Interviewer:  {X} #1 {X} #
847:  #2 nine. #
Interviewer:  {X} Shakespeare.
847:  You know and it was #1 just #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  and when I came here and uh you know and they introduced these literature books in in the eighth or ninth grade and I said well I've already read these books. They said what do you mean you've read these books you know you didn't even have any books. {C: static}
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And I didn't ever explain to them why I'd had the books.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh #1 So #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 but I was exposed #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  I was exposed to a lot of things that way particularly uh in in getting an education I think sometimes and I look back on my life and having to take care of my aunt at eight and nine years old that uh perhaps I missed a lot too. {X} Well you grow up too quick.
Interviewer:  Oh #1 yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # Like like dancing was always stupid to me.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  You know I just couldn't figure out why people would go through the physical motions that they went through just because they heard some music. And right now I I'm not a very good dancer. uh most of my friends don't know me as a person who has too much humor. Even though there you know I have a lot of humor but my humor they don't really appreciate because I don't like stupid things.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh My humor is if I can catch you in something uh philosophical joke
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 and you # you understand what I'm talking about now either it might be something that's totally comical to me and nobody sees any humor.
Interviewer:  Oh I see it's almost like you never got to be a kid.
847:  That's right you know like I finished high school when I was sixteen.
Interviewer:  Tell me about {X}.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Thank you.
847:  I finished when I was sixteen and I just couldn't figure out anything I wanted to do so I joined the army. uh total lie. So about the time I was nineteen I had been halfway around the world and back and I was speaking portions of four different languages
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  you know and it was just something that uh
Interviewer:  What languages?
847:  French German Spanish and English sometimes.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Sometimes English. #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Sometimes # English.
847:  Yeah but you know I uh I you know the experience has been good it's just the fact that I said you seem to miss something.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah #
847:  #2 Like # uh you see how big I am now at sixteen I was almost I was as tall as I am now uh but I didn't have any weight on me.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 and I # always think back that if I had finished school high school like other kids at seventeen and eighteen there's a big difference between the development of the body at fifteen and sixteen #1 than #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  there is at seventeen and eighteen. Consequently I never realized the heroics that I could've could've performed in athletics because I was out of school by the time that uh
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  my growth had started. #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 You couldn't # play football or whatever probably big as you are.
847:  Yeah you know and uh it was just you know I always seemed like a step ahead but being a step ahead like that doesn't it hurts you in a sense of speaking you because you really miss something.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {D: about another thing} {NS} said the same thing she grew up during the Depression and they just didn't have any money and she was raised by her grandmother and they didn't have any {X} but she had that she learned how to cook and and she made all the clothes and all the stuff you know from age probably about {X}.
847:  Well like I've been cooking ever since I was eight. And I remember making one of the best lemon custard pies you know it's not a custard Eagle Brand milk.
Interviewer:  Oh I love that.
847:  #1 That was the first #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 that was the first pie I ever made #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # Yeah.
847:  was a #1 lemon. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # lemon with {X}
847:  Yeah and uh #1 graham. #
Interviewer:  #2 graham # cracker crust.
847:  The graham cracker crust.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And uh there was always the gingerbread cakes. #1 Ever made gingerbread cake? #
Interviewer:  #2 I don't know if I've ever # made that.
847:  Well uh I've forgotten how to make a gingerbread cake now but they were really really good.
Interviewer:  Gingerbread lemon pie is my favorite thing in the whole world.
847:  And I was going to tell you we we used to make I used to make the lemon pies and she being a diabetic was not supposed to eat 'em.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Well she'd suddenly eat a half a pie
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 and # double up on her insulin you know.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # {D: If it wasn't} she hadn't gotten an insulin shot.
Interviewer:  #1 Right probably. #
847:  #2 You know. #
Interviewer:  That's funny. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Now we #
Interviewer:  They're worth it though they really are worth #1 it. #
847:  #2 Yeah. # Every now and then I'll have a taste for one you know uh and then when they what we call hoe cakes. #1 Now hoe cakes #
Interviewer:  #2 I don't know about # hoe cakes.
847:  a hoe cake is nothing but a great big biscuit {NS} fried in a pan on top of the stove.
Interviewer:  Is it is it regular flour or cornmeal or?
847:  Flour. It's a flour dough.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  And uh you use a little baking powder water no egg anything like that.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah that's you know and it if a thing with you know you use a big black skillet and it just would mushroom out and you'd flip it over. And I and I you know I think the reason why they call it a hoe cake because it was it was like in comparison and they were talking about like a whore. In comparison to a biscuit like that to a cake and that's it was like comparing a bad lady
Interviewer:  I guess.
847:  a bad woman to a lady you know.
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  and it took me a you know I #1 I #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  Never knew why we were saying these things you know.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 no I # never heard that {X}
847:  #1 Yeah right. #
Interviewer:  #2 I # knew it as a hoe cake but I didn't {NW}
847:  Yeah well that's
Interviewer:  That's very interesting I didn't even know what one was.
847:  Yeah you know it's a cake really you know that it mushrooms #1 up #
Interviewer:  #2 as # #1 opposed to #
847:  #2 you know #
Interviewer:  #1 cake. #
847:  #2 this thing. # Yeah. #1 It's not the lady #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 little angel food. #
Interviewer:  #2 Not your proper # #1 it's not your proper cake. #
847:  #2 {NW} # No.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Which # you know we're talking about uh language things here too. It was just a few years ago that I figured out what my grandfather was talking about when he said kiver.
Interviewer:  What was that?
847:  He was talking about cover.
Interviewer:  Oh well.
847:  He would he would always say bring me the kiver. and the kiver meant to me a blanket or a quilt.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  But I never related kiver being cover.
Interviewer:  That's interesting never thought they were the same word. #1 huh #
847:  #2 I didn't # think they were the same words.
Interviewer:  #1 very interesting #
847:  #2 uh # And I guess it was after I talked to you that I started figuring out what he meant by kiver.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  And he was talking about the cover.
Interviewer:  #1 Very #
847:  #2 And # I hear people now you know somebody'll say kiver me up.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  That means cover me up.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 You know but # I didn't know what he was talking about. I just knew he wanted the blanket or the quilt on him.
Interviewer:  {X} That's very interesting. I love stuff like that.
847:  And now that was that was one of his favorite words and fetch. I always would get it but I would figure that fetch mean give me this and I you know I I was an adult before I figured out that fetch I just wasn't thinking about what fetch meant to him.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know. um It means to hand back to me or give back to me.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  But fetch really means for you to go get it.
Interviewer:  Go get it yeah.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # That's funny.
847:  #1 You know. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 It reminds me of # my next door neighbor. Before she had two kids she had this enormous old English sheep dog and they taught the dog to fetch they'd throw the ball and say fetch run and get the ball but there was this other kid little daughter you know just a kid that's old enough to crawl. they got her to fetch they threw a ball to #1 fetch. #
847:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
Interviewer:  {X} {NW}
847:  {NW} Poor kid probably ended up with a complex one #1 probably #
Interviewer:  #2 day. #
847:  So you know.
Interviewer:  {D: the dog}.
847:  So your mother used to tell you the fetch {NS} #1 dog story. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # Let's see what was I gonna ask you next? um Okay well you lived in O'Donnell. You live in Did you did you did you {X} the whole time or?
847:  Well
Interviewer:  You already said that.
847:  when they #1 put the barracks together #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  uh that ended up being a two bedroom. It was it was a one {X} when I say this it was one of the larger portions of the barracks that they'd turned into a bedroom and a kitchen with a little dinette in it. And the way they did that was they built a {D: banister} between you know it was just a partition. A half a wall partition. Go across cut a little door in it there's the kitchen and the bedroom that's the living quarters there you know.
Interviewer:  I see uh-huh.
847:  uh We we had a large bed which was a full bed and I slept on a cot more or less like a foot of the full bed that was across from the full bed near the door.
Interviewer:  uh
847:  Thing that divided the full bed and the cot was the door.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  uh There were a couple of large chairs like uh lounge chairs. um There was cabinets built in the kitchen you know the refrigerator. uh I'm trying to think we had not that wasn't a refrigerator it was an icebox.
Interviewer:  Oh it was really with ice.
847:  Yeah ours was a real ice box.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And I remember having to wrap the ice up in newspaper to keep you know people thought back then that I guess it did it kept the ice from melting so quickly it was like insulation.
Interviewer:  uh-huh #1 Right. #
847:  #2 uh # Then we finally got a refrigerator. uh There was a table in there. And the bathroom and the shower actually it was the restroom with a shower it was the girls' restroom that like if you you know were facing the right way you know like it was facing south and uh would go through the west side of the bathroom. And on the east side of the bathrooms and to the uh school uh #1 in the classroom. #
Interviewer:  #2 uh # Yeah I see.
847:  You know so uh uh we used the uh girls' restroom had had a shower in it and that was connected to the living quarters.
Interviewer:  uh-huh I see.
847:  And the boys' restroom was over on the north side of the building
Interviewer:  mm
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm So if there was school out you had to not get confused and go in the wrong one right?
847:  I always knew that if I what was going on when I went in there.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} uh um
847:  {NS} Yeah. I think a couple times I did by accident go in and it created such #1 disturbances. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  And my aunt put a latch lock on the inside of the door. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  #1 Funny. #
847:  #2 {NW} # {NW} #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Well I # tell me this when you were in Dallas you lived in Dallas like part of that time like for six months at a time #1 right? #
847:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  What kind of housing was it like here in Dallas? {X}
847:  mm-hmm Looks like it's getting pretty low.
Interviewer:  Yeah. uh I think it will click once it goes off. {X}
847:  Well now the first house that I remember living in in Dallas was a duplex.
Interviewer:  Let me ask you now would you draw me a floor plan of it?
847:  Yeah. {NS}
Interviewer:  Like that where's the list of the things that you said before that they sent me? {X} {NS} And I can't remember if I had to do this before I guess I didn't.
847:  No you didn't I I woulda remembered that. And I was {D: duplex me}. {D: You must like to do this.} Now we shared the same kitchen though.
Interviewer:  mm The family in the other part of the duplex and y'all?
847:  Yeah well actually uh the man who owned the house the the owner lived there too. And he lived on the other side.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm I see.
847:  And he had one kitchen built in there. Yeah looks about right. We even stayed in a shotgun house too.
Interviewer:  Shotgun house #1 is a #
847:  #2 That's a # straight through thing. You know you have to walk through the whole house to get to the kitchen.
Interviewer:  Like oh all the rooms just line up straight?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 Where was that #
847:  #2 because #
Interviewer:  where was the shotgun #1 house? #
847:  #2 It was # in Dallas.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  Now let me see.
Interviewer:  This is always a real talent trying to get people to people to do this cuz I get some people who are just they say no. {NW}
847:  Well I guess you have to think about. This will be a door using this as doors.
Interviewer:  mm-kay
847:  And I guess {C: static} yeah that'll do. {C: static} mm-hmm {C: static} I'll call this {C: static} open space so you can see now there was oh and there was a closet here {D: so I'll make a note}. Yeah that's right.
Interviewer:  Would you when you get through that label stuff for me okay?
847:  Okay.
Interviewer:  So that this kinda thing is in {X} Yeah things like that are really {NS} valuable.
847:  And you know what? There was another family living over here yeah he used one bedroom. There was always the biggest hassle about this. Sure was.
Interviewer:  About the bedroom?
847:  No there was this lady that lived over on this side whose name was {D: Ida May}. I remember her name.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  She had a son named Frederick. Frederick was older than we were and he always picked on us.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Like to use the bathroom or the kitchen there was always a hassle going on with Frederick.
Interviewer:  oh uh-huh
847:  Remember old Frederick I can't forget #1 him. #
Interviewer:  #2 You # had to fight the sandstorm or Frederick #1 to go to the #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  bathroom.
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} Sounds like a hard childhood to me. {NW} Sound like it's always running out there hmm.
847:  hmm
Interviewer:  Well it looks wet but well it looks like it might be covered {D: with little snowflakes}. {X} {X} Oh hey there's more left. It's already {X}
847:  It is?
Interviewer:  Yeah they come on {D: cars and stuff}. {X} huh Well guess we're gonna {X}.
847:  {X}
Interviewer:  Okay now tell me.
847:  There. {NS} We lived on this side. We went in through here.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And there was a hall hallways have huge living rooms. Like say there was a closet at the front room I don't all those old houses have closets at the front and they were sorta like back to back.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And there were two bedrooms on this side and two bedrooms on that side
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 Well # the lady that lived in this bedroom was Frederick's {D: fella}.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Okay. And the man who owned the house lived over here.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  And that was the problem with Frederick is it because we had two bedrooms and he only had one with his mother.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  Yeah so my brother and I Max slept
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  in this room. And my mother and my stepfather slept here. Uh as you can see the bathroom was closer to us than it was over here to Frederick's room.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know like they had to come around through the kitchen this was just like a little dinette up here and it was just real convenient
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  you know to come back around through #1 here #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  to the bathroom. And there was always some sort of a hassle I think we used to harass him.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  You know like uh knock on the wall when we knew he was in the bathroom.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah.
847:  And he
Interviewer:  Poor Frederick.
847:  he would wait on us.
Interviewer:  Frederick may not be #1 the bad guy in all this. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He was just the biggest he was the oldest like you know like uh and I know he probably hated us. {NW}
Interviewer:  He probably did.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  But now let me draw this thing of the shotgun house.
Interviewer:  Right right.
847:  I thought I thought the shotgun house now then there was another duplex we lived in three different duplexes and all the other duplexes were made exactly alike. Now uh except for the others were were totally divided and you had a hallway down each side of the like that would be a hallway. A hall there and all your other things would be living room, bedroom, kitchen bathroom bedroom #1 you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh # #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 And those # screened in back porch and all.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  But now the shotgun house #1 was #
Interviewer:  #2 I bet # things were kinda crowded at mealtime with two families in there trying to sit down at the same time.
847:  It was always a hassle. And there was always a problem with somebody stealing somebody's food.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah oh yeah.
847:  Now we kept a lotta the food {D: Mom always uh} {D: put out} and we were always missing food. My mother didn't care but I always cared cuz it seemed like Frederick was getting my oranges or apples or something or either when his mother was fixing his lunch she would put something of ours in his lunch. Yeah it created big problems.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  #1 Big problems. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm # Yeah.
847:  And if you know like he had a sister too I don't remember where his sister slept. She didn't stay there all the time but when she did she just slept with Frederick and they had two beds in his room uh in in their room she slept with their mother and Frederick slept in the other bed.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  At night she slept on the on the couch in the living room cuz I know when my sister came home she would either sleep in the living room either move us out of the bedroom and we had to sleep in the living room.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm
847:  {X}
Interviewer:  Oh I see why Frederick may have had some problems.
847:  Yeah yeah you know a lotta problems.
Interviewer:  Do you ever wonder what became of people like that?
847:  Yeah uh let's see uh last I heard of Frederick he was uh oh he he had lost his mind I believe.
Interviewer:  Oh really?
847:  {D: No.}
Interviewer:  That is interesting.
847:  Well you know when I heard that I said you know Frederick was always crazy.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW} You know I was I was home Wichita Falls is my hometown. I was home about a week ago. My father had a heart attack and he's doing okay now but I was at the hospital and uh there was this bozo football player that I went to high school with I didn't even {X} just your typical jock. You know and he played the part he was a big guy. He went around acting mean and everybody liked him but you know he was just kind of a bozo. Well he was at the hospital and uh I stopped to talk to him and I found out that the reason he was at the hospital is cuz he was making rounds. He was a doctor.
847:  He's a doctor?
Interviewer:  Yeah. And I just went you're a doctor?
847:  Well Frederick's sister's a nurse. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Good the # sister at least didn't lose her mind you know.
847:  uh I've seen some real work cases come out of houses like that whereas it that the girls take on say there's a girl in the house with two or three brothers. She take on the masculine tendencies of the brothers.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  You know and uh boys who slept with their sisters and their sisters were older they end up taking up female tendencies you know there were a lotta things that went on there you know like uh I spent an awful lotta time in the middle of them. And I wonder if that mighta been an influence of being around my aunt all the time. uh I think all of us have some traits in us that
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 you know that uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # #1 {X} #
847:  #2 it could # go either way.
Interviewer:  Yeah it depends on upbringing and stuff.
847:  {X} back here
Interviewer:  You saw the tape going.
847:  Now now if it I think consistently looked {X}
Interviewer:  {X} Now it sounds better {X} I don't wanna take up more that
847:  #1 half but #
Interviewer:  #2 Well I got time cuz my #
847:  secretary's not here so uh you know.
Interviewer:  Well good I'll stay the rest of the day then just to use up all my tapes. {D: It's not your basic complicated now is it?}
847:  Oh no.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 it didn't take a # genius to figure this out.
Interviewer:  Really. {NW}
847:  Can't call this a back door. It's on the side of the house. It went into the kitchen. {NS} Now uh {X}
Interviewer:  I can't read upside down.
847:  Sorry.
Interviewer:  {NS} I know people who can but I'm not one of #1 'em. #
847:  #2 This is a # bedroom.
Interviewer:  uh
847:  It was the landlord's bedroom.
Interviewer:  Oh.
847:  His name was Mr. Williams.
Interviewer:  Oh okay. {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Get these details #1 right. #
847:  #2 He # yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  The bathroom was back here. This was the kitchen. There was a side door that goes into the kitchen and that was the door that Mr. Williams used to go #1 into #
Interviewer:  #2 uh #
847:  his bedroom.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  uh This is the bedroom that was for my brother and I. uh This was a combination bedroom living room to the front door.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  You know. {X}
Interviewer:  Your mother and stepfather were there?
847:  mm-hmm
Interviewer:  Well what'd your sister do when she came home there? Or did she live there at that time or not?
847:  Oh yeah I know what we did. Well when she came home we set up {NS} a rollaway bed in here
Interviewer:  mm
847:  and we'd put the we would let the rollaway bed down.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm
847:  That's what happened when she came home.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh And I think that was part of the problem of her not wanting to come back home.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah I can understand that.
847:  You know the older she got you know like then sixteen going on seventeen years old had to sleep in a room with two little brothers.
Interviewer:  That's
847:  #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 bad # news.
847:  and completely no privacy at all.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  This is #1 bad news #
847:  #2 Then having # to share the bathroom {D: with an old hick bald head uh} landlord.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 probably eyeballing her all the # #1 and #
Interviewer:  #2 Probably. # #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  I'd stay away from home as much as possible too I think.
847:  So that was that was a real trick there.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh So when my younger brother was born I remember we moved. We stayed there for a while uh and he slept in one of these bedrooms. But then it was all it was convenient because then there wasn't uh often that my sister and I were there all the time so it was my oldest brother and my youngest brother who were there all the time and when when I say my oldest brother he's two years older than I am.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  And that would make him eight years older uh than my younger brother my youngest brother at least. So they don't get along now.
Interviewer:  Oh dear.
847:  And I often wondered why they didn't get along. Maybe it was because one or the other displeased the other one for so long by being together all the time.
Interviewer:  Yeah maybe so.
847:  You know and they developed resentments for each other that I didn't develop cuz I wasn't around all the #1 time. #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh # uh-huh Well how was it you went to live with your aunt instead of your older brother? {X}
847:  uh Well I remember when we first started uh school.
Interviewer:  Was this here in Dallas?
847:  No we started out with my aunt in O'Donnell.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  uh Max's birthday is in December December twenty fifth.
Interviewer:  Oh wow huh he had to get two sets of presents right?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  That creates problems too.
Interviewer:  Yes. I have a friend whose birthday is birthday is the twenty first and she has the same problem.
847:  And like it's it seemed that Max was always into something mischievous and I wasn't. My mother said that my aunt was making a difference in the two of us. {NS} And that created a problem so she said send my boy home. Max would tell a lie like you know like you know he made it really sound like it was a big difference being me.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  But then he was my grandfather's favorite. Reason being he was the first male born into my mother's side of the family in forty some odd years.
Interviewer:  Oh boy. Wow.
847:  So
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  that made him real special to my grandfather.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  His first grandson.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Well there was when the distinction started being made it started with my grandfather and my grandmother. My grandfather smothered my oldest brother with all the love because he was the first grandboy.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm
847:  And my grandmother catered to me because she knew my grandfather really had didn't care that much about me.
Interviewer:  Yeah right somebody's gotta love the kid.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # So you know it always was a like little problems going on and just since talking about it I can real- I recognize and realize a lotta things that happen now with kids and why it happened with 'em
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  and uh when my mother sent my brother back when my aunt brought my brother back to Dallas um that's when a lot of distinctions started being made between who's doing what and why.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm
847:  And my brother always wanted to be with us but since he wasn't with us that meant that he was with my mother and my stepfather and he didn't like my stepfather either you know maybe maybe I liked him cuz I wasn't around all the time.
Interviewer:  Yeah maybe so.
847:  Yeah you know #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 sounds like he # {X}
847:  Yeah I think I did.
Interviewer:  Well how did you all get along then when you moved back to Dallas? When you were what twelve?
847:  Oh we fought all the time.
Interviewer:  Oh really? You were kind of at that age too yeah.
847:  Yeah. Just the right age to start disliking each other.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 And # not being around each other wasn't enough either. And it's just been within the last four or five years that my brother and I have gotten to be like brothers.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  #1 You know. #
Interviewer:  #2 That's # really interesting.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Is he still in # in Dallas?
847:  He's still in Dallas. But he uh {NS} by him being the oldest you know like two years difference is a big thing with brothers
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh might not be to people on the streets but it really is. And I I respect him as being my oldest brother I listen to him I don't give him very much advice he gives me all the advice. And I do that with him primarily because he he has some good sound advice to give. But he is always stuck like that uh opportunities came to me a little bit better than came to him. uh And I guess some things did happen you know to me that perhaps didn't happen to him. There were benefits uh but it didn't hurt him you know like uh he he's very independent uh he makes more money than I do now and he really likes that because when I was making more money than he was making it's sorta like a put down #1 to him. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm # Exactly #1 you know he #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  still respect it'll bother him.
847:  Yeah you know so he would uh and even refers now to my easy job you know and what I do here and how hard he works and whatever you know but and I said but you're making more money you know and he said well it compensates for it. uh But we that we love each other now I always loved him always felt like kinda resented me some reason or #1 another #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  and I find I I would bend over backwards {X}