Interviewer:  {X}
847:  No and the truth of the matter like I was- I wasn't born in Dallas.
Interviewer:  Yeah. {NS}
847:  Uh only reason why I wasn't born in Dallas was the fact that my mother happened to be where she was at the time I was born #1 but uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Where were- # #1 where was she? #
847:  #2 I was in Calvert, Texas. #
Interviewer:  How do you spell it?
847:  C-A-L-V-E-R-T.
Interviewer:  Okay. Yeah.
Interviewer:  When-how old were you when you came here?
847:  Uh just a few weeks old sounds like. #1 but uh yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 Okay. #
847:  She was living in Dallas. She just happened to have been vi-visiting my grandmother when I was born.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Yeah you know so uh
Interviewer:  And there you were #1 huh #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  {X} Okay can you give me your whole name for the {X}
847:  That's {C: Should be beeped}
Interviewer:  mm-hmm And how old are you?
847:  Thirty-two.
Interviewer:  Okay. And your address-your address is {D: this place here} right?
847:  That's two thousand North Central Expressway.
Interviewer:  mm-kay and occupation?
847:  Eh manpower consultant and social worker.
Interviewer:  Can you explain to me exactly what you do? I mean I've been trying to figure out what is it exactly that you do sometimes I've been up here and-I don't quite understand {X} {NS}
847:  You wanna know specifically what do I do?
Interviewer:  Yes.
847:  Perhaps many of the things that you have witnessed or heard me doing while you were here were not particularly in my uh job description uh
Interviewer:  Yeah {C: laughing} {X}
847:  Now I uh I'm primarily concerned with manpower programs that are being carried out by the Dallas community of action program. uh The-I guess the most technical things that I do is uh write uh program proposals for manpower operations. Uh in doing program proposals I usually uh depends on uh the area or the time that that uh we're working in or like when I said the time let's take nineteen seventy-six and manpower uh needs were a little bit different from what they were three years ago so then come up with new programs and this is the reason why that uh the funding level is always different uh either you don't get funded for programs to exceed a given period of time uh the job market needs are different. Uh for instance uh five years ago there was a great emphasis on uh uh clerical and office workers.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
847:  Uh there there is still a great need for them the demand is not exactly what it was at that particular time uh particularly in the minority community so far as training programs are concerned. Uh there was a great need for machinist operators such as uh turret lathe machine operators uh mill press operators and so forth uh. Right now that we're concerned about is what is called the {NS} prime age-work of the prime age worker uh it's from twenty-five to forty-five uh in the prime age worker range then uh below from twenty-five back to uh fourteen or fifteen is where is it you find your greatest uh amount of persons uh uh unemployed. Uh the prime age worker we're talking about from twenty-five to forty-five those individuals who would be in the job market and perhaps might need some training uh particularly because they're twenty-five to forty-five usually this is the area in which uh people uh have taken on added responsibilities they assume responsibilities in their lives that uh before twenty-five they would not have and after forty-five they would perhaps not have.
Interviewer:  Like family and-
847:  Family and so forth. uh So it-it's really a matter of you figure the job market out, you figure out what is the uh most prevalent needs in the job market uh you try to design and uh tailor your programs to those specific needs. uh It goes in the job development uh and job development is a-an area in which I work in. People generally confuse job placement uh with job development. Job development has to do with creating a job really rather than placing a person in a job just like a warm body part or slot. But uh in job development you create a slot where there perhaps might not have been a posi- an existing position uh and this is usually done by taking individuals who might have say limited uh needs uh or limited expertise in a certain area and an employer says well I don't particularly want that type of person, need a person with three years experience they need someone who has uh uh greater proficiency at doing certain things and you say well no you really don't need that person that you're talking about because this person can do this and that and uh so this is really job development uh
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  more or less than just job placement. eh 'Course nowadays there's not much need for job development or any other type of placement programs even though there's a need to place persons. Uh there are many people out of work. uh You know 'un-unemployment is as great as uh I think uh perhaps certainly the greatest unemployment uh uh percentage factor uh I guess since the depression.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  this is what you'd call an employer's market.
Interviewer:  Interesting. Mm-hmm
847:  You know uh we're concerned now about uh {D: the fact that} maybe in You know a lot of people are in the job market now that came from the baby boom after the war.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 uh-huh yeah #
847:  #2 Well # {NS} this is- people wanna- it's- it's really difficult- it's not difficult in talking to manpower people about what problems this has created uh we have right now more career orient professional career oriented individuals in the society so far as their academic achievements are uh concerned But what's really happening is that there is an an influx of degree-holders that are in the job market and then they can't find a job.
Interviewer:  Yes, yeah.
847:  So what's happening is that uh employees are uh upping the requirements educational requirements when they particularly don't need them in order for an individual to do the job {D: part}. Well the pressure that this is really creating is that the high school graduates or those individuals who would maybe figure into certain areas are not getting those jobs.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  So we're creating a uh a vacuum that's there that uh uh concern is that perhaps in maybe four or five years right now is uh is there is uh a concern about say P-H-D's you have many graduate students that are #1 out can't find a job {X} taxes and so forth. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  uh The concern here again is that we don't have a uh a society of great thinkers and no doers. and this is what we're coming up with it's because people after say uh achievement of certain level academically they feel like if society owes them a soft spot so far as their uh vocation or their labor is concerned and this is not gonna be fact even though uh it should not people should not be discouraged in getting a high education. uh but they should be encouraged at a junior and senior high school level to engage in some sort of vocational training that uh they can use uh uh their hands or whatever they're gonna use but uh uh For instance if a P-H-D who knew how to build a house was in and he was out of a job
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  he could go be a carpenter
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 And certainly as a carpenter he would make more money than he would uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {D: Probably make a bit more money as a carpenter.} #
847:  yeah he would probably make more money. Uh but then it's a matter of the orientation that you give people. We- I think uh after the war- there's another thing that happened. You see in the ins-in the academic- in the academic institutions they have to keep pushing and all of that uh people in that field need to justify their needs.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Well in justifying their needs uh they keep pushing and pushing uh they have played down vocational education to a certain extent. Uh now there's a real need for vocational education programs and the labor department uh which is the Department of Labor is going-they are pushing for those type programs. But it's not reeducating society that working with your hands is not particularly uh uh a bad thing to do but this is- this is a real problem that you deal with.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  I'm- I'm looking at the packet I'd say when I was in high school uh {D: prodigal} in high school I can remember people back in the fifties saying oh hell there's no sense in going to college you can't find a job and this particularly was true with black people. Uh what happened was that uh blacks had started going to school and uh uh what I call taking- uh they were taking what I would call soft programs
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  uh like elementary ed uh P-E, homemaking, and that sort of thing.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  #1 {D: phys. ed., volleyball} #
847:  #2 so # Yeah you know like what we got around the fifties uh mid-fifties late fifties and a lot of people that were out there they couldn't find a job even though they had a degree. uh you can't use a major in English in a place else but in an academic institution
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh special education programs uh uh same thing goes today with social workers, I can remember a few years ago maybe three to five years ago that there were a great number of uh social science education majors that uh they would go out there that uh they would just have a uh a B-S a B-A uh well that does really no good nowadays.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  You wanna make any money you gotta have a M-B-A
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know uh either you gotta have a M-S-A you know.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know there- there's something that uh you-you-you-you realize that uh that just having a four-year degree is not really very much today.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  You- you know a four-year degree just says you know another paid trained individual. Well that's really not the case it's just the fact that uh things uh that field got so full that the only way that they could differentiate between those who had uh perhaps be good and those with probably be mediocre were those who had the time or the money and the energy to go on and get a graduate degree.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # {X} of schools did you go to in Dallas I mean back in grade school?
847:  No I went to uh that school's name was Pacific Avenue {NS} and they changed it from Pacific Avenue to Tennessee Harris.
Interviewer:  {NS} Oh yeah. Okay. Then-then what?
847:  Oh then I went to {B}
Interviewer:  Then was your junior high {X}?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  Okay. mm-hmm
847:  Least there weren't junior highs in the black neighborhood.
Interviewer:  oh yeah
847:  Uh there were junior highs in white neighborhoods before they had junior highs in the black neighborhoods
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  Yeah. Like uh we they changed uh Old Forest Avenue High School into James Madison uh and I started going to Madison. Also was going to {B} during that time in uh which I lived only a few blocks from {B} and that was before integration {NW}
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  #1 or desegregation whichever one you call it. #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh yes. #
847:  uh So then we moved uh it-it wasn't even back there, they just closed down Forest Avenue to whites and opened it up to blacks and called it James Madison.
Interviewer:  huh Yeah. Okay, uh you said you had some college, where did you go?
847:  Uh after finishing high school I joined the service then I was going uh while I was in Europe in the service I was going to University of Heidelberg uh
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah. {X} Okay.
847:  Then it was University of Michigan. And I've had any number of courses and programs down at El Centro there's just uh {NS} you know community education type programs uh too when I started taking a mid-management course which is a actual business education thing and so I was competing with uh lower level book- uh accounting which is nothing but bookkeeping and stuff like that.
Interviewer:  Yes yeah yeah. I could use a course like that just keep my checkbook balanced.
847:  Yeah, well they gave me the basic principles as far as {X}. It'll make-you can be a bookkeeper you can't be an accountant that type business {C: laughing, creaking}
Interviewer:  Okay. Okay what about uh clubs and and-and {X}? What all do you belong to and stuff like that?
847:  Yeah I belong to the chamber.
Interviewer:  Is that--what?
847:  Well I'm on both chambers which is the Dallas Chamber of Commerce, the Black Chamber of Commerce.
Interviewer:  You know um I forgot it starts with an oh uh mister {C: name} he works at {X} partnership.
847:  Yeah, I know him.
Interviewer:  Yeah I'm I was talking to him {X} I know he said that he was {X}. {NS} Okay anything else?
847:  Yeah. Boy Scouts of America.
Interviewer:  Okay. You worked--you worked {X} {C: thumps}
847:  I'm always donating, now I don't have time to work with them. #1 I have worked with uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  uh I I've worked with two groups of Boy Scouts uh I'm also a member of the National Association of Social Workers.
Interviewer:  Okay um
847:  That's Texas Association of Community Action Agencies which is T-A-C-A-A, T-A-C-A-A.
Interviewer:  Okay. Anything else?
847:  Y-M-C-A.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And I am the local director of the Youth Crime Prevention League {NS} of America.
Interviewer:  {NS} {X} Okay. Anything else?
847:  I guess past member of S-C-L-C. We don't have an S-C-L-C chapter in Dallas anymore.
Interviewer:  {NS} What is that?
847:  Southern Christian Leadership Conference. {C: creaking}
Interviewer:  Um what's your religion?
847:  Baptist.
Interviewer:  Baptist?
847:  Yeah. Everybody in the South is a Baptist.
Interviewer:  Yeah, it's true. Are you-are you still active in church {X} {C: noises}
847:  Infrequently.
Interviewer:  Okay. {X}
847:  It's kinda easy to do.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Especially with a job like this. #
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {X} this is not-I guess the idea is {X} a job.
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Well this is more or less like uh {C: thump} when you are awake job.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 All of you know like # uh when I open my eyes it's my job and uh #1 and it's that way until I close my eyes {C: cat meowing} it's my job, I-yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. Your recreation is sleeping. # Okay uh where was your mother born?
847:  She was born in Calvert, Texas.
Interviewer:  Okay is-how old was she when she came to Dallas?
847:  Eighteen.
Interviewer:  {NS} How old was she when she {D: had} you, do you know?
847:  About thirty.
Interviewer:  Okay. {D: Where is} your father?
847:  Oh he was born not exactly in San Augustine, Texas but I guess it was out in some community around that area.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  But you can say San Augustine. It was in that- in that area.
Interviewer:  Okay. And how old was he when he came to Dallas? About.
847:  I would imagine- uh uh I think he's between twenty-five and thirty.
Interviewer:  And how old was he when-when they had you?
847:  He was sixty years old.
Interviewer:  Sounds like a healthy man.
847:  Yeah he's still in good shape. He's ninety-two now. Be ninety-three on his birthday which is next month. {NS} uh
Interviewer:  {X} Okay uh how far did your mother get through {X}?
847:  She finished high school.
Interviewer:  What about your father?
847:  I don't know. Never asked.
Interviewer:  um okay what-what did your father do? What was his occupation?
847:  My father's occupation- {NW} his number one occupation was gambling.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Uh {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} Other than that. {NW}
847:  He worked uh-he worked as a oil field worker. uh He was a- he worked in the first oil refinery that was built here in Dallas which is a uh uh not a refinery but uh it's a little like a storage tank area.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh they did do some processing out there which is Texaco took uh He worked in the cement plant at the-that place is still out there. uh
Interviewer:  Does he still gamble?
847:  Yeah. If he-if he can find a place to lay a bet he will.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh
Interviewer:  {D: That's good}, anything else?
847:  He's on the- he's worked for himself, he's on you know like the {D: phase} uh beer joints.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  You know, living to be ninety-three you can do a lot of things in your life. #1 And so #
Interviewer:  #2 That's right. This is true. This is true. {C: laughing, thumps} #
847:  He's done a lot of things uh he's been a handyman {NS} uh cook. He's still- he's-he's a great cook. He's got some darn good recipes that uh like barbecue sauce uh
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah things like that uh
Interviewer:  I could use some lessons.
847:  I cook pretty well.
Interviewer:  Could probably teach me. I couldn't cook a thing when I got here. Nothing.
847:  I-I don't think most women can cook when they get married. I-I had to teach my wife. She still- She can cook breakfast foods and a lot of people say that's easy but it's not easy to cook breakfast food.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Cooking well. You know it's a little bit more than just break an egg and drop it into the skillet.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah. My husband likes to cook, which is good, because he hates yardwork. We have this arrangement-I do all the yardwork in the summer, I mow the grass, {X}. We have a garden right now. I keep the garden-I keep {D: the flowerbeds up}- I do all that stuff because he hates it. And on Saturday, I had to go outside and he gets the wash out and he dusts the house and he dusts, vacuums, and he cooks, which is great, you know, it's fine with me.
847:  Well I don't- I cook, wash, clean. uh when I had a place where I had uh a yard I would cut the grass, do that whole bit. uh I think probably one of the things that irritates me most is I- I have a lot of ivy plants. And I'll be damned if I don't think about watering 'em-I'm all-I'm gone from home all the time. {NS} And nobody will water my ivy plants. Uh that makes-that is something that really irritates me, you know uh {NS} it's- it's sorta like a- a benign negligence that goes on I s- you know. You can't water my plants, you know I- you know I-I- I feel like I'm responsible- you know like I'm responsible for all the major doings there. uh Watering my plants to me is like fixing my food because then you don't really have to put- you know they don't have to fix their food cause I'm never at home so at least feed my plants.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} But nobody does huh? #
847:  #2 {NW} # Nobody feeds my plants, you know.
Interviewer:  {NW} That's pretty good. My husband wouldn't water my plants.
847:  He won't?
Interviewer:  Uh-uh. Last summer I was gone for eight weeks and I had to take all my plants, and I had like two {D: cars} of the plants over to a friend's house and she kept them for eight weeks {X} but he'll dust and stuff like that.
847:  Well my-my wife's-my wife's excuse for not watering our plants, she says that uh something about plants they die when she waters 'em.
Interviewer:  #1 Oh, then you know may be lucky that she doesn't water your plants. #
847:  #2 If she-yeah I # said well even if that uh uh you know your plants get to be like your children.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 That's true. #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  That's true, that's true.
847:  And it really both- it really hurts me if I go in and I've neglected one of my plants and they're drooping.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 You know it's # kinda neglecting the children.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And they'll let you know that you're neglecting them too.
Interviewer:  #1 That's right. #
847:  #2 And # they have scars, you know like #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 They drop # a few leaves here and there.
847:  like with my ivy plant uh, I had one, it was in the kitchen. It's still in the kitchen. uh It's easy to neglect it. Psychologically it's easy to neglect it. It's right next to a plant that's in water all the time. #1 It's in a #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh. #
847:  clear- and it's clear glass and it's sitting there in a gray pot
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  right next to that glass and that is the reason why people will neglect- it's the psychological thing. They see that plant that's budding out of the water
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  and all that clear water so what would make you think about watering the one next to it? {C: noise}
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  #1 You know? {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 I see. # That plant probably has a complex. It probably feels really mistreated.
847:  And it has been mistreated, too. {C: thumps} {NW}
Interviewer:  Okay, what-what was your mother's occupation?
847:  Mm {C: thump} I guess the first job that uh I can remember my mother talking about was at uh- she was a housekeeper and a cook. uh
Interviewer:  Okay. Anything else?
847:  Oh uh I believe at one time she worked as a maid. She was in charge of uh {NS} housekeeping at some hospital. Elevator operator.
Interviewer:  Okay. {NS}
847:  Oh and she was in charge of all the custodial cleaning at uh Mercantile Bank at one time.
Interviewer:  mm-kay Where- #1 where were her parents from? #
847:  #2 Then she ended up # working uh My grandmother was born in Ethiopia.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Her-her mother?
847:  Yeah. {NS}
Interviewer:  What about her father? {C: creaking}
847:  {NS} My fa- my-my grandfather- {NS} I guess it's southeast Texas around Jefferson, Texas, in that area. {NS} #1 His mother was a full-blooded Cherokee so then he was a cross #
Interviewer:  #2 huh #
847:  between yeah. If you had known me long enough at times I get real red. Reddish brown. #1 you know I don't yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 But in color or? #
847:  Uh I think sometimes after I've been exposed to a lot of sun
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 uh # I think the older you get you know the darker you get- I used to be much lighter than you know I am now.
Interviewer:  I didn't know that. huh Does your skin turn darker when you-when you get out in the sun?
847:  #1 mm-hmm #
Interviewer:  #2 Like- # mine does? Does it go away then in the winter? #1 {X} #
847:  #2 Yeah. # {NS} My son is uh about a shade darker than I am and he can get real- he can get black in the summertime.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  Yeah and he likes playing out in the and he swims a lot you know out at the pool and in the sun quite a bit playing. And he gets real- he gets real dark.
Interviewer:  {D: He's black though.}
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  I think that's {X}
847:  He doesn't- he doesn't- he doesn't get a black black. It's sorta like a- a chocolate. {X}
Interviewer:  Yeah. Do blacks like darker skin tones or like lighter skin tones? {X}
847:  Well
Interviewer:  {X} {NS}
847:  let's go back to when I was a kid and before. If you would take uh the average so-called quote-unquote successful black
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  male his wife was more prone to be extremely light and straight hair. uh there was a time it seemed as if the families who did the best were those who had the lighter skinned families.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh Around small towns you know what happens now well you know that the lighter skinned ones that uh either reason why they did better is that uh {NS} their father their grandparent somewhere along the line was white.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And uh then they got a few favors because they were able to well, they just got favors.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh and then there was a time that uh whites distinct 'em, they still do. Great extent distinctly make a difference between lighter skinned um blacks and darker skinned blacks.
Interviewer:  That right?
847:  I think it's a psychological thing that happens is that people tend to uh relate to those individuals who are close to them even though they their ethnic grouping is different. #1 They too #
Interviewer:  #2 yeah #
847:  tend to relate to that color tone a little bit different.
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 {NW} # Yeah and then there was a time you know like uh black was evil. So the blacker person lost uh {X}. You know {X} so-and-so said you know he's so evil.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 uh # black is the ace of spade and just twice as evil. Uh so people even among blacks discriminated against blacks.
Interviewer:  Because they were blacker?
847:  Yeah you know uh uh now uh I think even now there seems- there might be a- a favoring toward uh uh lighter skinned
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 uh blacks uh # Uh because with the awareness programs that are going up now and the uh the culture revamping where as the people are black and proud, you know like so. uh uh the nappy hair and so forth as a matter of fact I had a friend of mine who uh uh mayor {C: name} son George junior.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  Who's- we were in a bar and uh George is a good looking fella you know uh uh very suave reddish-brown tone skin sorta straight hair straight curly hair. And uh fella who owns the bar is about your color but he's got nappy hair.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 uh {NW} # uh He was one of those older cats that I knew for a long time that people related to him in that particular matter and he's very- has been very successful, he was one of the first black uh well uh negroes- he wasn't black. uh Neither in his attitude his culture nor anything else else because he had been- he grew up on the conditions of the favoritism thing toward his color.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Uh you know he was telling George- he said you know, here comes old cute George, you know and uh uh I had been- you know like I've done my thing around town, and uh used to be quite a sharp dresser and so forth-I don't dress like I used to. I think it's this job. And uh George was saying well he said the day is ours us light-skinned niggers with straight hair, he said the blacker and nappier your hair is, it seems like the more people who care for you. That is the truth. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Is that right? # They really are.
847:  Yeah, you know like uh uh who used to really get over. {NS} uh uh I think the black chicks are more inclined to turn 'em away uh those who uh say uh associate uh with whites. uh used to they find that uh they don't get that same favor.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 And- # and I-I-and I started noticing that particular trend when I was in Germany. Uh I found that in Germany that uh the German chicks were more inclined to uh date the cats who were had broader and- and I- full negroid uh features.
Interviewer:  #1 uh #
847:  #2 You know like # #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh #
847:  black skin big nose, thick lip and nappy hair.
Interviewer:  uh
847:  And I could never figure that one out cause during that time my hair was kind of curly and straight looking and uh uh that was during my lighter days, I-
Interviewer:  #1 hmm #
847:  #2 course I was just a # shade or two lighter than I am now and I- I said damn you know like I can't figure this one out over here and I know I- I knew that I looked better than those cats did.
Interviewer:  Yeah. {NW}
847:  That's what I thought.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Well I wasn't attractive. You see it's a matter of what you think are good looks, it's a matter of what's attractive to other people.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  I wasn't attractive to them. And uh I sorta went through a-a thing of uh of doubting who- you know
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 What # #1 could I do with it? #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  That's- that's a real trip that was a real trip to go on though.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  uh and I- and after a few years back here then things started to change and I guess the change really came about uh oh I would say around sixty-five when I-sixty-five, sixty-six when I started- people uh making a distinction there.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 um # Saying that uh well the blackness thing. So it real- it really you know like it's- it's been something that uh I guess a lot of people don't wanna admit. But if you would take {NS} right now {NS} I bet you that seventy-five percent of the blacks of a merit in Dallas- successful blacks over forty-five
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  seventy-five percent of them their wives have extremely light and have straight hair almost.
Interviewer:  That would be interesting-that would be interesting to find out, wouldn't it?
847:  And that would be a good thing to study.
Interviewer:  Yeah, that would.
847:  Yeah. And my wife is light. Freckles and all, #1 but {D: just so} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  {D: I- you know I'd had nothing to do with-} that might have something to do I can remember when I uh when I was in high school all of my- all all of the girls that I dated were extremely light and had straight hair. Back then they were considered as being good-looking.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
847:  uh so but now I-I-I-I think I can psychologically, this is a Freudian thing, I can go back to-back- my mother was light, my sister's light.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 My sister had straight hair. #
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 uh # So then that might have something to do with it.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 Like #
Interviewer:  #2 You know there's some influence. #
847:  Well yeah, and like I- I notice with my son now. He's twelve.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
847:  His little girlfriend is a little Mexican girl. uh {NS} he doesn't seem to be too interested in little black girls {D: running around}.
Interviewer:  {D: What-potentially?}
847:  Yeah. Well they- what it is uh, with his mother being uh {NS} light-skinned, that- well this is a picture of my wife here. That- that's with a tan.
Interviewer:  Yeah, she is light. #1 Yeah, it seems to me about her hair too. She's cute. #
847:  #2 Now that's my daughter you know like #
Interviewer:  Oh well, yeah. She's light too, golly. She's cute. Your wife's real cute. Is she your age?
847:  My wife?
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. {NS}
847:  You wouldn't believe it but she's six months older than I am.
Interviewer:  Huh. Is that right?
847:  Yeah, there's another picture of her. Which I think is a real winner.
Interviewer:  Oh that's a cute picture. Is that recent- is that pretty recent?
847:  No it was taken last year.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
847:  #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 Is she still thirty-two or is she thirty-three now? #
847:  She's thirty-three.
Interviewer:  {NS} Got ahead of you huh?
847:  Well ironically I always thought that- I think because of their size {D: that they were light.} {X} #1 I had three or something like it always #
Interviewer:  #2 Well I was gonna say she looks like she was little. {C: thumps} #
847:  Always considered her as being a little girl. I been knowing her- like we grew up together.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
847:  Uh when I say grew up together, I think we started liking each other when we were about eleven years old.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh?
847:  So uh
Interviewer:  #1 That-that does go a long way back. #
847:  #2 Yeah we- # we've been together for twenty years.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  {D: You know, here's somebody} here I'm thirty-two and I'm talking about how I've been with someone for twenty years #1 and it's #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  actually a fact though. Twenty years. uh
Interviewer:  Is she a Baptist too? {X}
847:  My wife thinks that she doesn't need to go to church to have religion. I think that she belonged to a Baptist church {D: at one point in time} but uh, yeah I know she did when she was in high school.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 uh but #
Interviewer:  #1 {X} Baptists {X} #
847:  #2 on-yeah yeah. #
Interviewer:  How far did she get in school?
847:  Uh she graduated from high school, she's been to a business college, right now she's going to El Centro. uh She was one of the first graduates from one of those real slick {NS} uh business colleges that sprung up all over back in the mid-fifties.
Interviewer:  Yeah, like {X}.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh #1 As a matter of fact she ended up teaching in one of 'em because she uh-yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Is that right? # What about your uh father's parents, where are they from?
847:  I've never discussed my father's parents with him.
Interviewer:  {X} or anything about their education, or anything like that?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  What about the education of your mother's parents? {X}
847:  My grandmother perhaps mm sixth, seventh grade. uh In fact my grandfather had less education than that.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  He was a shrewd old man. Very sharp.
Interviewer:  Is he living?
847:  Yeah he just passed uh about four years ago.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  Yeah, you see he- he and my father were about the same age. #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # Wonder what he thought when- when your mother and your father got married?
847:  I don't know, you know like uh {NS} that was one of the things that sent my mother to her grave was the fact that she didn't like my sister's husband. uh my mother was a little bit prejudiced too. She didn't like real dark-skinned people. #1 She had a thing about her #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  and my sister's husband was black as that thing there.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh and twenty-five years her senior.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
847:  My mother just could not stand it. You know like uh {NS} she lived in a house with him. out in uh {D: Stockton}. And I- that was something that my mother never got over.
Interviewer:  {D: How so?}
847:  She never got over it. That just worried really that was one of the things that worried her to her grave.
Interviewer:  Sad.
847:  And- I think I know what it was. My mother's expectation of her children was that uh you know, we {NS} was that we were always gonna be doing better than how she did.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # And she had a distinct feeling that uh my sister's husband was a hindrance to her growth.
Interviewer:  Hmm.
847:  uh to a certain degree she was right.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Course association brings about assimilation.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah that's right. #
847:  #2 uh # uh I was just telling a friend of mine uh you know I was talking about yesterday. You know I mentioned my profession. When I first came into this building here I wouldn't come to work looking like you've seen me looking at work, I just didn't believe in that uh One reason why is that the environment was different. I worked downtown most of the time and it uh that environment was distinctively different uh that uh so far as your your dress was concerned. uh {NS} I don't know how to work that phone. I hear it ringing but that's okay uh
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  After being over here this- this building is depressing.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # #1 it's usually #
Interviewer:  #2 I worked in a place like this one time. #
847:  It's very depressing, it doesn't give you any incentive, it's not a you know you- you don't do very much creative thinking here.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And a lot of things happen to people psychologically by working in a place like this #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm #
847:  That fellow that's the executive director of this program {X} {D: way away from me} but then that- that I noticed that I uh I had a friend of mine that came over with my that used to work on my staff When we first came over here we were always immaculately clean sharp. And people used to oh you know like here comes uh doctor so-and-so and whatever else they used to call Mike you know uh Who are y'all trying to impress, what are you doing? You know and I said #1 You know like uh, you going to church today? I said I'm coming to work, this is a professional job. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  And it ended up you know like uh that their attitude, not their attitudes but their manners and so forth has rubbed off on me.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh. Yeah. #1 {X} That happens. #
847:  #2 Yeah. # So uh I-I think that's what my mother's concern was about my sister #1 was that uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Right right. #
847:  uh she realized by being married to an older man that there are just certain aggressions that older people don't have
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You- you know like uh they're not as progressive in their thinking
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. Yeah. #
847:  #2 and doings and so forth and more satisfied # uh they are more complacent about a lot of things and if you're- if you are in that complacent atmosphere you become complacent too and uh uh course my sister is mm I guess she's been teaching now for almost twenty years, well she's been teaching for twenty years #1 longer because uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # She must be {D: much} older than you are?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  uh my sister was born nineteen, my mother was nineteen
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  so uh she's uh I mean she's been teaching over twenty years.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh I know she has. Cause she finished high school when she was fifteen. uh that's right though she was out of college at nineteen.
Interviewer:  Wow. I was just barely in college at nineteen. What about your wife's uh social contacts, her {X} clubs?
847:  Goes to the spa.
Interviewer:  Okay. {C: laughing} {NS} What about her uh her parents? Where are they from?
847:  Marshall, Texas. {NS}
Interviewer:  Do you know any further back than that?
847:  mm her grandmother expired in Marshall so I would assume that she grew up you know within that general area.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
847:  Around that area now.
Interviewer:  Okay. Okay um okay tell me what you call the uh financial center in Dallas where all the banks and savings and loans and stuff like that are. Do you have a particular name for that area?
847:  My name for it's South Wall Street.
Interviewer:  Okay. Anything else? {C: laughing}
847:  No that's- that's probably nobody else in Dallas calls it that but that's just the way I look at it, it's name's South Wall Street.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  {NS} Wall Street I've- people you know I downtown Dallas to me perhaps has the one of the most beautiful skylines of any city in the country. I don't know of any other city- well San Francisco has a pretty skyline. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  It's beautiful. uh And that's just because in recent years they built #1 several new buildings out there lately but otherwise- #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  the hills and all that it's pretty anyhow. uh but I can remember when I was younger I was in New York and had the opportunity to go on Wall Street And I- I associate the Dallas financial industry which uh insurance and banking business uh in Dallas is is great, folks have more. Well everybody knows you know like you you understand that Dallas is an insurance center it's uh banking and so forth and I always thought about Dallas as being a grand and great city. And uh I just say this is South Wall Street and it is in a sense of speaking, there's a lotta #1 money here. #
Interviewer:  #2 yup # Yup that's true.
847:  Lotta money here.
Interviewer:  What do you call a commercial center like where in Dallas like where retail stores and merchandising center and that kind of thing?
847:  That's downtown.
Interviewer:  Okay. Any other names?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  Okay. Uh is there a separate um black or other kind of minority financial commercial center?
847:  Separate?
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  No.
Interviewer:  {X} Okay. Uh what do you call the largest airport around here?
847:  D-F-W.
Interviewer:  Okay. Anything else? Okay. Um what are the most well-known historical landmarks around Dallas? {NS}
847:  Well there's the Millermore House.
Interviewer:  What is that?
847:  Well Millermore House is the uh it's one of the antebellum homes that was one of the few that was built in the Dallas area.
Interviewer:  I didn't know that.
847:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 That's interesting. #
847:  uh there is uh the {X} home used to be the Belo family corporation when- that's Belo- that's a communication corporation- the Belo family owns it's down on Ross Avenue.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Well the Dall- histori- the historical societies have been attempting to do uh uh well there's been talk about uh
Interviewer:  #1 Was it-was it {X} #
847:  #2 preserving that # #1 place
. #
Interviewer:  #2 family home? #
847:  Yeah it was a family home at one time. Speaking- have you seen that thing?
Interviewer:  Huh-uh where is it?
847:  It's down Ross Avenue just uh there's a Catholic church that's down there right at uh Ross and which is that street that's not Field Street Pearl no it's not Pearl. It's just a shame I can't even tell you what. Just- just as you like uh it's across the street from uh a {X} place uh
Interviewer:  Well I'll have to look for it.
847:  #1 It's on the right-hand side of the street. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  Can't miss it, it's uh a lotta the uh there's a lot of growth around it now like the- they had like the yard roped because the people that uh had it leased was a a funeral home and they uh widened that street in there and they said that cut out some apartment lot Think they were looking for an excuse to get out of their lease.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 It's a reality though. # uh course you know there's uh uh there's the Bryan Neely uh {NS} #1 log cabin downtown, everybody knows where that thing is. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah, yeah. # {NW}
847:  Uh I like to go out and look out on Lawther Lane and look at H-L Hunt's house. {NS} The Hunt House. {NS}
Interviewer:  #1 Where is that? #
847:  #2 The Hunt House # is out on Lawther Lane around White Rock like Law-Lawther Lane goes
Interviewer:  Oh yeah.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  #1 Oh yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # That house is almost an exact replica to the White House.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  #1 Yeah it's a beautiful thing you know like uh you can see #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  #1 Dallas' own little White House out there and it's #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  I think the dimensions of it are just a few feet uh less than what the White House is.
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 uh # Now the one I like- {D: Mott} today, you know this is gonna be history tomorrow and forever and a long time is now the market center.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Now the market center in Dallas is second to none- it is the largest market center in the world #1 on- #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  in one location Now that part of Dallas is history I like that's- I saw uh I worked in the uh trade mart, that was the first building that was built up there, I was-I guess in high school when they uh
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  #1 when they built that building uh. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  I have a friend of mine who works in the apparel mart now. And now the largest piece of tapestry that was made {NS} in this {NS} century {NS} is hanging out there, it was commissioned by {X}, it was the uh oh piece of artwork that was uh done depicting the first fashion show. {NS} And it's #1 hanging in the proper place out in the apparel mart on the great hall. #
Interviewer:  #2 I didn't know that. #
847:  uh The piece of tapestry is uh oh it took about roughly two years to make that thing. uh it shows uh the first fashion show was the Shahrazad was uh dressing her sister Dunyazad to marry the king. Uh not the king but the king's brother.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know well that was part of the thousand and one Arabian night tales.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 Well you know that story. #
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Well anyway that's- it's just showing the first fashion show because um everybody was so happy when Shahrazad when Dunyazad was gonna marry the king and the I mean the king's brother and the king decided that Shahrazad didn't need to tell him any more tales because he was in love with her. So then Shahrazad in order to uh commemorate the thing she said she was going to dress her sister in all these fine gowns and so forth and there are smaller pieces of tapestry around that shows each area- you know like each gown, each fitting and so forth.
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 uh # I guess there are a lotta people in Dallas that really don't- uh you know they don't really think about that, to me, was uh quite an achievement.
Interviewer:  #1 Yes. #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  #1 {D: I didn't know that.} #
847:  #2 Because well particularly since uh you know uh # years ago beautiful works of carpet or tapestry uh was used as money uh And then to have that thing that's {D: just hanging out} that one piece of work cost over a hundred thousand dollars.
Interviewer:  #1 That is- #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  That's a lot of money.
847:  It's a lot of money. You know, just to have #1 a great rag hanging on the wall but it's- #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  but it's much, really it's just the beauty of the thing captivates you uh there are hundreds of different hues and colors and threads that were used in that thing.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Just a beautiful piece of work. uh I don't know uh- let's see course you know the first tall building which everybody used to come into town was the Magnolia Building which #1 flying red horse, you know that was- #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  that was the building that made Dallas a standout. Uh I can remember as a kid we'd go out of town and it looked like miles and miles away you know you could #1 see that red horse turning. #
Interviewer:  #2 Red horse. # {NW}
847:  After that it was the Mercantile Bank Building.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # And I had a lot of pride about the Mercantile Bank Building because my mother #1 was in charge of cleaning the building. #
Interviewer:  #2 That's right. #
847:  #1 You know so {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 That's right. # #1 That's right a pride for her. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  I- I think well I know that uh the some of the most beautiful architecture downtown is the old {D: Darfus} hotel.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  that building uh the building which uh is across the street- the Baker Hotel has a lot of uh work in it too uh
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  the old uh Sanger Building- not the Sanger Building, the A. Harris Building which was a A. Harris uh uh department store that's on uh it's on Main Street, right at Main and Akard.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  But uh- These-these are uh some beautiful pieces of uh architecture that uh I think people just pass by, never having a real appreciation for it. uh They could perhaps care less of the thousand or hundred thousand pigeons set up on it
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 You know? {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  I've got- and things like that I take a lot of notice in uh There are I don't know, there- there are so many things, you know like if I was- I'm talk- you asked me what uh about Dallas'- you know uh the historical spots in Dallas, I'm just taking about the things that uh there are other places there are other things here but uh that I- I just look at those things and I particularly appreciate or like them.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. {X} #
847:  #2 uh # Let's take the cement plant out where my father worked out in West Dallas. That ce- the uh sorta like the ventilation stack, that thing was one of the tallest type stacks made in this country like uh and it's still standing out there, company's going out of business, they've turned it into they're developing it into a uh industrial park and they left their stacks sitting there and they saw like a
Interviewer:  #1 Huh. #
847:  #2 {X} figure that's out there #
Interviewer:  Huh. That's interesting.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Are they gonna leave it?
847:  They're gonna leave it there and- and it's uh it's illuminated at night.
Interviewer:  #1 That's neat. #
847:  #2 Yeah. Yeah. # Uh
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  I sure wish the city parlors had had sense of that or had had the foresight to see what an attraction a streetcar would've been in Dallas #1 if they had {D:let} downtown now. {C: creaking} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. {C: creaking} #
847:  {NS} When they took the streetcars away that- that really- I always knew that the streetcar shoulda been- I said that they should leave at least one track or one route for the streetcar. and everybody thought you know said what? You know like eh my mother used to try to explain to me you know about the you know the tracks are dangerous and they're in the way. I said no- I said you know that would certainly make people uh {NS} uh I said just something about it was a history thing, and I was just a youngster thinking about that thing.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah look at San Francisco now. #
847:  #2 uh # I could- the thing that I thought they shoulda done was left one track the uh that was an old track that went by Union Terminal Station. uh {C: noises} that- that went to {D: old cliffs}.
Interviewer:  Yes.
847:  Uh
Interviewer:  {X} {NS}
847:  I think there's something about a real nice spot I used to like to go to.
Interviewer:  What do you think- tell me this.
847:  {X} Thank you. Fair Park.
Interviewer:  Oh yes.
847:  {D: Down} The Museum of Fine Arts in Fair Park. uh Music Hall.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh which is a very fine structure. The Museum of Fine Arts has a a wealth of fine collections in there. uh Museum of Natural History is perhaps one of the most complete about uh southwest animals and so forth you'll find. uh I don't particularly like our {X} over there, it doesn't offer very much. uh the uh what they call the Texas Hall of Fame.
Interviewer:  Yes.
847:  Very fine place. uh I've started taking my son like over in there because I grew over in the Fair Park and these places were just like I used to play in them.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know uh so I I grew up with an appreciation for art through that just that- that association, just growing up over to that neighborhood and having a it- it was like a daily thing you know you could go over and- and look at things and other people would have to come on too or make it a once a year #1 thing to do. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  uh so that's you know that's something I have a lot of appreciation because that uh it gave me an insight on a lot of culture and art #1 {D: at the time} but uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # #1 Just have it right there. #
847:  #2 Yeah it- it was like that. # course now the Cotton Bowl is something that's very famous. I can remember when they built the first extension which was a double deck
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  on the cotton bowl and that was {NS} during the days when Doak Walker was going to S-M-U.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  you know like this one captain built the Cotton Bowl. {C: laughing} And that's literally what happened. And after that you know they put double decks on it, I can remember as a kid going to look out over that deck and I think the Cotton Bowl was one of the well the Rose Bowl was always a good place but the Cotton Bowl is still one of the finest stadiums in the country.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh.
847:  You know so far as the uh pieces of the Cotton Bowl. uh {NS} {NS} Dallas has lost a lot of its history though. Uh I think modern times have changed a lot of things.
Interviewer:  Such as?
847:  I don't know like it just seems that like let's take downtown for instance. They- they have torn down most of the old buildings and things that uh
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh They just here recently started to think about trying to preserve {D: something}. uh They were going to tear down the old red brick courthouse.
Interviewer:  #1 Oh yeah I remember that. #
847:  #2 You remember that? # #1 I thought that was #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  the craziest thing in the world you know.
Interviewer:  #1 Aw I couldn't believe it. #
847:  #2 You know. # uh I'm glad somebody finally rescued the place. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  {NW} {NS}
847:  I could've been one of those persons who woulda been sitting down on the bricks while the #1 bulldozers were coming. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. {C: laughing} #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  uh
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 I can- # I can think of so many things that are just not here anymore that are gone #1 you know uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  Uh it's- it's sorta like uh it's the town of no no past to it. It uh
Interviewer:  Yeah. It all looks so new.
847:  Yeah, you know if- if it's torn up so much here. and uh they've thrown away a lot of art a lot of history in this town. uh They didn't do very much to preserve lot- lotta the old neighborhoods. uh
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  They're gone.
Interviewer:  Like {X}?
847:  Yeah. It's gone.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh {D: and a lot all gone around} uh Swiss Avenue of course you know the historical society has been able to preserve some of those homes over there.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh over in South Dallas around Park Grove uh South Boulevard. there are some very fine structures over in homes at uh
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Well at one time that was an area that uh a lot of Jews lived in. You know of course there's always- there was always that prevalent factor that in this society there were more people who discriminated against blacks you know black people usually get off in this thing that uh they the only persons discriminated against but then even the Jews like have always been kinda nestled off to the corner #1 somewhere #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  and that there's a lot of people that won't admit it now but then there's an area out in North Dallas now. that we have uh just a hell of a lot of Jews live in that area.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah. Oh yeah-all-all together.
847:  #1 Yeah all together. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yes. # Yeah. #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 And uh # strange thing isn't it?
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  If you ever really think about it uh
Interviewer:  Really what uh-what are all the-tell me what the derogatory names do you know to refer to the Jews that are used around here.
847:  Oh {NS} What is a {X}? #1 That's something that they don't really use that #
Interviewer:  #2 I'm not sure. #
847:  #1 down here. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # but I know it's something.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Sounds like something {X} would use but I don't know who he'd be talking about. #
847:  Well you'd either be talking about a Jewish person or an Italian.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah. #1 Cuz I don't think #
847:  #2 Yeah. # I know Polack's a Polish {D: immigrant}
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 But then you don't- # you don't hear Polacks used down here very much because there's not that many Polish people.
Interviewer:  mm-mm
847:  Jews you just don't uh Jew is a Jew.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh being a Jew is derogatory.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Sometimes. You know just the- just to imply that an individual is a Jew uh uh I've seen that uh be uh something bad I know uh I can remember this is nineteen or twenty years old uh being a Catholic down this way was pretty bad #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Is that right? # Do you know of any other names they were called- the Catholics?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  But just Catholic?
847:  Yeah just being Catholic and I- and that thing really heightened up when uh Kennedy was running #1 for president #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  for his {X}
847:  {X} really use the the {NS} the scare tactics that they probably used before and that he was gonna turn {NS} all the black people loose and give 'em all jobs and push whites out of jobs. {NS} So they started talk- they used a religion thing to scare people.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 You know # if you couldn't use a racial thing you'd use a religious thing.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 And uh # {NW}
Interviewer:  Do you know of any uh derogatory names for Protestants?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  Okay. What about uh Mexicans?
847:  Right now Mexican is bad.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Wetbacks.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Pepper bellies.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Anything else?
847:  uh Tortilla.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  That's about it you know like uh the wetback and the pepper belly thing is uh {NS} #1 something that I remember very distinctly. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # #1 I remember the wetback thing. #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  What about uh about-you're gonna laugh but I have to ask you these. What about Czechoslovakians? Anything derogatory? What about Germans? Okay what about Italians?
847:  Wop.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 That one. #
847:  #2 Yeah. Yeah. # That one kinda stuck down here- it's it's down here now.
Interviewer:  What about Lithuanians? {NW}
847:  I've only known one Lithuanian and I was in service with him.
Interviewer:  I've only known one too I think.
847:  It's a very small country #1 you know yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # Uh what about-oh yeah you said what was it you said Pole was?
847:  Polacks.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  That's about all.
Interviewer:  Okay what about uh Puerto Ricans? {NS}
847:  No.
Interviewer:  Greeks? Englishmen?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  Scotchmen-Scotsmen? How about {D: Gambians}?
847:  #1 Nothing. #
Interviewer:  #2 Okay Frenchmen? # Russians? Cajuns?
847:  Well you know like you-you'd you know like German {NS}
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh {NS} just being a German when I- as I grew up was bad.
Interviewer:  Because it was right after World War Two?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Cubans uh whenever-I really never gave too much thought to Cubans till Castro came along.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And then Cubans uh just being a Cuban was something bad.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  What about now?
847:  Now it's- it's easing a little bit but people still have uh that feeling toward Cubans that uh
Interviewer:  mm
847:  uh there's something bad and of course {D: in the hallway} you didn't need a derogatory name for a Russian.
Interviewer:  Yeah. {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  #1 That's true. #
847:  #2 You know uh I had enough of # you know like uh German uh the G-I Joe comic books taught you enough about you know various things that you just didn't uh have a good use for
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 uh particularly uh # the Japanese.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  That was the damnedest thing to me and after I got grown I started to thinking about it is that the Germans were a greater menace to the to the world than the Japs were but then all of the and here's where that racial prejudice come in uh ethnic I think uh color prejudice come in so much uh over race.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  {NS} is that {NS} most of the battle comic books like G-I Joe and those other things they used to have would alway show G-I Joe winning the battle against the Japanese.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know they would be uh uh uh they called 'em Chinks and all you know it was just something that I always wondered you know like well why weren't that many comic books about #1 Germans you know about us #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  beating the Germans but then that's where that #1 color thing comes in. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah it's true. #
847:  uh
Interviewer:  Did you ever hear any derogatory names about Scandinavians?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  What about somebody who belongs to the Republican party?
847:  Well {NS} down here being a Republican, it's just bad to be a Republican to me uh the thing that uh {NS} I deal with Republicans on is their ability to be ultra-conservative in-about everything
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # and I-I think uh that conservative tag has been something that's uh bad for them uh in the minority community with poor people uh social workers the whole thing you know like uh you just don't that conservative badge is something that uh uh people get stuck with. #1 You know I'm a #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  conservative and uh well and I-I'd imagine some moderate or some liberal Republicans but uh then they're just stuck with that conservative
Interviewer:  What about insulting names for immigrants? {NS}
847:  Oh uh people call them jackasses. You know that comes from the party uh uh mascot.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  but uh
Interviewer:  uh Okay um I think you'll like this. Well I don't know you might not like this. Tell me about playing the dozens. Is it-do y'all call it that?
847:  Yeah I never engaged in it though.
Interviewer:  You didn't?
847:  uh-uh
Interviewer:  What-how is it regarded in your community I mean you know what kind of kids did it?
847:  Everybody did it. I didn't do it.
Interviewer:  Why didn't you do it?
847:  I just- I always thought it was insulting.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  It was something that I didn't- I wasn't able to come to grips to play with. uh People who knew me just didn't play that you know {D: ever so I could fight it} {NS}
Interviewer:  #1 uh uh-huh #
847:  #2 something to me you know # or a war march.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  I-I just I just never-I just could-uh to me it was always something that was derogatory, demeaning humiliating and uh I just didn't engage in that sort of a thing #1 but I do #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh #
847:  know that people everybody did it.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  Was it called anything else?
847:  No, none none other than the dozens. {X}
Interviewer:  What kind of a-a word of respect or affection would you use to refer to like your best friend?
847:  My best friend. I think it I-I don't use this very much anymore it's like my main man.
Interviewer:  mm mm-hmm
847:  You know uh
Interviewer:  That probably-couldn't you'd say that you'd say best friend? {NS}
847:  Yeah I use buddy a lot. {NS} uh I uh I know I know uh I would only consider my closest friends as being my buddies you know I don't uh and that's just two or three people, other people are just uh consider them as being a friend or an acquaintance.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh What about uh do you know any words that might be used to refer to an adult who's close friends with an adolescent?
847:  Close friend with an adolescent.
Interviewer:  uh-huh {NS}
847:  mm-mm
Interviewer:  Okay what would a young man call his best girlfriend?
847:  His woman.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else? Okay what would she call him?
847:  Her man.
Interviewer:  {NS} Anything else? {NS}
847:  No. Anything else would be lying you know like that's {NS} colloquial that's what it is man and woman.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Okay uh what um names do you have for people that are known as hippies you know like you used to be in San Francisco would be the same thing?
847:  Freaks.
Interviewer:  mm-kay anything else? {NS}
847:  That's about it.
Interviewer:  Okay uh what do you call a man who uh-a person who carries and delivers uh mail?
847:  It used to be the mailman now he's the postman.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  The rule changed?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  What does your son call him?
847:  Mailman.
Interviewer:  uh-huh That's funny. Wonder if he'll change when he gets older.
847:  He'll change.
Interviewer:  That's funny. Uh okay what do you call a person who loads and carries away garbage?
847:  Trashman.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  Well he's a sanitation worker now.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 You know so {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yes. # Depends on whether you're at work or not doesn't it?
847:  Yeah it uh if I'm at work he's a sanitation man.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  When I go home he's the trashman.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  uh He's never been a garbage collector. He's always been a trashman. I know uh in other areas people say garbage collectors. Here he's either been a trashman, he left from being a trashman to a sanitation #1 worker. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  That's pretty good. Okay uh what do you call a woman who solicits and-and gets money for uh sexual relations?
847:  She's a whore.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  But you don't say whore it's hoe.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. #
847:  you know
Interviewer:  I get it.
847:  H-O-E not W-H-O-R-E.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # Any other names?
847:  uh I guess hoe and whore was the uh first words that I heard to describe a prostitute.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Then prostitute. I've known a lot of prostitutes in like uh and been and have some friends of mine. uh So you refrain you have to think you know figure out something better to call our friends and so it became sporting ladies.
Interviewer:  Oh okay. #1 {X} #
847:  #2 you know uh #
Interviewer:  Is that what they call themselves or?
847:  Yeah like uh they they you know like prostitute is like uh uh there's a there's a proper name to say that they're filthy in uh certain social circles and uh hoe or whore is a little bit demeaning and #1 derogatory. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  So sporting ladies like uh it gives a little bit of flair and a little dignity.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  So uh in in proper circles they're sporting ladies.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  But uh they don't mind calling each other whores though
Interviewer:  Oh is that right?
847:  No. It's just like uh when you {NS} first day you came over here I you know I in that circle of women they they call each other whores, bitch you know.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Friendly. #
847:  Friendly and awful. It just depends on the tone.
Interviewer:  Oh. #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 You see uh # some people can curse you with a tone that you know is a negative tone you can be cursed again but be a positive tone.
Interviewer:  uh-huh mm-kay
847:  You know it's like uh uh motherfucker. {NS} We use that word daily. Day in and out you know but #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 For what # exactly?
847:  For what?
Interviewer:  Yeah for what. Yeah.
847:  Everything.
Interviewer:  Okay give me some examples?
847:  If I was describe in describing uh I have a lot of good things that I call people but uh then I guess uh if it's something that's say disgust that individual might you might get a reply like That's a motherfucking shame. uh {NS} An exclamation. Ain't that a bitch.
Interviewer:  mm mm-hmm About a situation?
847:  Yeah. uh But motherfucker is just something you use all- it it just comes out without really {NW} a real problem at all.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  But you use it when you're mad and when you're not mad?
847:  #1 mm-hmm #
Interviewer:  #2 Right? # mm-kay Okay what do you call a man who solicits business for a prostitute?
847:  He's a pimp.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  He- he's either a pimp or a trick. You know like uh
Interviewer:  A what?
847:  A trick. Uh tricks can be used in so many different ways it just depends on the individual situation uh The person who buys that uh the uh who buys the woman is a trick.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  uh A trick is usually a stupid individual that you can say that game that you can play a game on 'em anytime you so desire. And uh he's gotta be a real trick to go out and buy. You know like uh the word trick came in at uh I think in the hustling field where is it people started talking about somebody that they could uh uh use a con game on.
Interviewer:  What #1 what was it, was the #
847:  #2 So then trick #
Interviewer:  hustling game, the hustling field?
847:  Well hustling carries a lot of things like hustling is uh {NS} a hustler can be a gambling hustler.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Most gamblers uh at one time uh were uh crooked gamblers. So then you start hustling people. uh It's like playing on uh the things that you know you can play on people uh uh well they're not- they're gullible, they're not
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Whether they are apathetic in their approach to life a lot of things that you can deal with in hustling people uh to hustle a trick uh it could be uh {D: say like a runner for} the prostitute uh. Of course now that you don't find very much of that anymore. Uh you used to have uh uh in uh you made your hotels and places like that the bellboys became hustlers became hustlers for the prostitutes.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  Or either they hustled for the pimp and that was they would be hustling tricks. Like a convention would come into town.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh You know like you drop a word you know you gentlemen looking for some nice ladies uh just let me know uh. Well he becomes a hustler of tricks.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 And uh # well the trick is the individual that's gonna pay.
Interviewer:  oh
847:  uh Then the trick thing uh well you see playing tricks is like a game that you play in fun.
Interviewer:  Yeah. {NS}
847:  Well you always feel like at any time that a prostitute uh a hoe is gonna approach a man and she tells him if it's uh ten and five or maybe uh ten and two well ten and two it means ten dollars for her and two dollars for the room.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  uh She becomes more of an expert in her field of endeavor if she's able to get more than the ten.
Interviewer:  uh uh-huh
847:  so it's a trick you gotta play, it you be a tricker that I didn't make my money and my man's gonna beat you know a lotta games people can go through and uh you know like if I'm just trying to really to get off into how the name trick started being applied to people.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh I've seen people uh tricked out of their money by some of them. uh A fifth of water for a fifth of whiskey.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} That is bad.
847:  Yeah you know it becomes a real trick #1 and it is a trick #
Interviewer:  #2 I guess so. #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  uh But I've seen 'em even go for uh pay for a pint of urine you know that #1 it just #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh yuck. # {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # Some real tricks out there. {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} That's funny.
847:  uh These were usually games that we played on white people.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 You could never # trick you you sitting there like we use nigger I started to say you could never trick a nigger like this.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 Unless # he was a real real zip fool. He would have to be a real zip fool and I mean a zip fool a zip fool is like #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah a zip's # {D: nasty}
847:  you know the worst kind of fool that you can run into I mean he's just uh uh he's the head of all fools like a zip fool you know like zippers is something that you use in in describing the term of something real fast.
Interviewer:  uh uh-huh
847:  Well this fool is ahead all #1 precedent things. #
Interviewer:  #2 This is true. #
847:  #1 Fool. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 I get it. # {NW} #1 Okay. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW} {NS} Funny.
847:  But uh that really the hustling the hustling thing, it you can hustle people in in so many different ways uh. uh I've seen people hustled for food for drinks for dope you know uh they're just games to people run 'em you know. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm #
847:  uh But I I I think that less more women hustle men than men hustle women. #1 You know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Is that right? #
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  #1 Why is that? #
847:  #2 uh # Well it's it's more you know like uh men are more willing to pay than women are willing to pay you got women on {D: their merit days} are willing to pay, uh You got uh course I've seen slick fellas that might play uh homosexual game is what they hustle sissies {NW} you know uh
Interviewer:  Wait when you say slick fella does that mean homosexual?
847:  No slick
Interviewer:  Just means fast?
847:  Fast. uh A greased pig is slick. You can't know how to hold him if you're trying to catch him.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Well a slick person is one who's usually able to get out of the uh little things that people get trapped in they don't get trapped in it.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh they play a little bit ahead of the game uh the everyday game if people in inv- involved in you know a little little {D: wire type} games that people everyday go through well they're just sometimes a little bit ahead. Like for instance uh you would figure a slick individual is able to when everybody else is driving eh a Volkswagen he's driving a Cadillac uh uh everybody else is in sneakers he had on alligator shoes and
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  and diamond rings and so forth #1 so uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  then slick became that- that- that-thing uh uh then people used to slick their hair back you know when they started making a little money. They started manicuring themselves a little bit and uh they had that well-tailored look of slick back you know #1 so they were slick thinking. #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh # #1 Okay yeah. #
847:  #2 You know. #
Interviewer:  What-what names do you have for the police?
847:  Pigs.
Interviewer:  Anything else?
847:  Dogs.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh I I started a lotta people calling policemen dogs.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh Even though I have nothing against dogs but I think somehow another that uh since uh I really I that I- I use dogs more than I do pigs to describe the police.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm Anything else?
847:  The law. The man.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know.
Interviewer:  Okay uh What do you call a person who operates a mortuary?
847:  hmm {NS} I guess they used to be a funeral director.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Now it's a mortician.
Interviewer:  Okay. uh What do you call a person who sells L-S-D or heroin or something like that directly to the user?
847:  mm He's a pusher.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  No he's just {NS} he's just a pusher to me.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  Cat that he gets it from is the dealer.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Okay what do you call a person who wastes time on the job?
847:  {D: Fuck-off}.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  Dodging service is a goldbrick. I don't use you know I stopped using goldbrick because people look at you like you're cra- you know what is that?
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh so uh I use fuck-off more than I do anything else
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  to describe that the individual that does that.
Interviewer:  Who does that.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  What about a person who drinks al-alcohol all the time and too much?
847:  He's a lush.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  uh I think in better circles they call him an alcoholic.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Now they even have have have differences in those like uh you got a wino. uh There's a difference between winos and alcoholics.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 How's- # how's that?
847:  Well {NW} usually a wino is a impecunious individual
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 uh # who has more looks more like a hobo. uh course you very seldom hear anybody say anything about a hobo #1 nowadays. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  uh An alcoholic an alky, sometimes you call 'em alkies. uh There's something else that my friends call it uh oh {D: grogger, boozers.} You know. But I usually stick with either he's a now there's a difference now a lush there's a difference between uh I-I have a distinction between wino, lush and alcoholic.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  uh A lush to me is a woman who drinks too much.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  uh And I know and in my circle and we apply that more to a woman we don't call an alcoholic call him a lush. And men are lush it's sorta it's- it's sorta derogatory and demeaning. You know like uh you you really see people that get what we call funky drunk.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know they just load it in. uh An alcoholic is that individual who drinks every day and drinks excessively who can control it but sometimes he can't control it. You can always depend on him to get drunk.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah. And a wino is?
847:  Well a wino he drinks wine every day practically. And most winos do drink wine everyday uh they won't work, they don't work they're they're content with uh hustling bottles rags cardboard. You got a few winos who work on the construction job maybe two or three days outta the week. uh They will all steal from you but then they're not they don't they won't steal anything enough to go to jail, they want to make you mad at 'em.
Interviewer:  Oh. Yeah. #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # They-they there's sorta like a borderline thing they-they're not gonna prick very few winos have ever committed any violent crimes they-they ain't the major type of crimes I-any winos I have known.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know they just don't engage in violent activities. Now they'll fight among themselves. But uh they're- they're great lovers of themselves they love each other. You know there's more brotherhood among winos than you could find among anybody else.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  Any other #1 uh group of people. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  uh I've seen winos take {NS} a fifth of wine and drink it all with the exceptions of maybe three quarters of an inch down to the bottom and says I'm gonna save this for my buddy and if that buddy doesn't show up for a whole day he's saving a corner of wine for him unless he goes- he's able to go buy another bottle and save him some.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  uh That first morning's drink they'll look for each other for two hours before they'll go purchase a bottle you know buddy's gotta be on the drug drink the bottle with him.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh Once they've finished drinking uh one of 'em might take the bottle and pop the other over the head with it but uh
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  then- then tomorrow they're still drinking wine together.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 uh # They don't like people to talk about their friends and they will and they'll talk about each other uh but they they have seemingly more appreciation uh for for brotherhood among themselves
Interviewer:  #1 huh #
847:  #2 sense of # some togetherness uh
Interviewer:  What do you call um a female homosexual?
847:  Mm butch.
Interviewer:  Anything else?
847:  Dyke. Dagger. I don't use dyke it doesn't sound right. uh uh Bulldagger. I don't know that's something that uh I guess you'd say bulldagger or butch. Butch is something that came on recently. uh It was always bulldagger to me. uh People uh kinda cleaned it up because bulldagger sounded so nasty. eh you know it just that was the worst kind and then dyke came along. uh butch Now we use a lot of uh in some circles I go in uh we use gay.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # Reason why we use gay is because then you really don't know who you're talking about hard to nowadays.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 so uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # #1 That's right. #
847:  #2 uh # I used to tell my wife you know like uh she has a lot of morals and uh least she used to
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  and uh she was very {D: easily of how to} become involved in the conversation and get excited in talking about certain uh things that happen socially and I'd always don't say look you don't you just don't make those statements out in public about who you don't like and what you think people are if they do certain things because you don't ever know who you're talking to.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  I think she learned you know later on what I was talking about #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  so if you're in a good circle of people unless it's people that you know personally uh I you you know like in my circle, people they refrain from uh using butch dyke bulldagger or dagger and they'll just go the gay route.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  cuz uh nine times out of ten there's somebody around there who's had some certain homosexual dealings somewhere along the way
Interviewer:  uh-huh What about male homosexuals what do you call them?
847:  Mm sissies, punks.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh Freaks.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  What-again what if you're in polite you know where you don't know who you're talking to do you say gay for a man too or?
847:  Oh they're gay. Yeah uh I would never I would never I wouldn't ever uh insult uh a homosexual one-on-one just directly you know what I'm saying you know uh call them a punk or a sissy or freak. It would be gay. {NS} uh I have a just I think my compassion for people say that people can be whatever they wanna be and uh I just don't think that uh uh they should need to be insulted and they do take those names and uh as being insulting.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Now if I'm in a setting of the all male role there {NS} well you know those cats are real he-men uh you know we we might sit around and say sissy and punk
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 or freak. # You know but uh
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  we wouldn't do it uh if we knew that persons uh in the group and that uh were homosexual.
Interviewer:  Yeah. What do you call a sexually overactive female?
847:  Freak.
Interviewer:  Anything else?
847:  uh Nymphs.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  I think freaks and nymphs is uh uh even even nymph is something that uh it's a proper uh word to use to describe uh uh that individual. But uh most people don't like it if they are like that.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know uh So we might go the freak route that you know in some circles people don't mind being called a freak now.
Interviewer:  huh #1 okay #
847:  #2 You know uh #
Interviewer:  #1 #
847:  #2 #
Interviewer:  #1 Is it- #
847:  #2 you- #
Interviewer:  is it just freak in isolation or would it be a something freak? {X}
847:  Well freaks could go uh {NW} In my circle a freak is an in- any individual who might have uh multiple outlets for sex gratification.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  That could be uh uh anywhere from uh intercourse to uh uh oral uh sex uh. There are persons who uh uh who even though they might be straight don't mind playing around with the opposite sex for a while. You know it just doesn't bother them either way you know uh uh as long as they have the dominant role. You know like uh the cat who is a man who uh he doesn't mind associating with homosexuals but uh for pay or play or whatever it is you know uh uh but he takes a spin on business attitude
Interviewer:  #1 huh #
847:  #2 about it. # It's a matter of business uh you got uh they're there are the women who might do that uh who I guess trying to think about when did we start hanging that one out and that was in the late I guess in the mid fifties when oral sex became more prevalent in the black community.
Interviewer:  Was it taboo or was that just not done or what #1 was it? #
847:  #2 Oh you # just didn't find you just didn't find very many blacks who engaged in oral sex. uh Now you do.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  Yeah you know uh people get involved now so there's that I think {NW} the more intellectual and the more slick people are the more prone they are to start trying different things.
Interviewer:  Yes.
847:  uh #1 And so it #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  was in that particular circle uh say in the marijuana smoking or the coke sniffing set where people don't particularly mind talking about freaking.
Interviewer:  uh-huh #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 You know # so #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Is # that what you'd call a overactive-sexually overactive male too?
847:  He's just a he's just a stud. We don't even look at him as being sexually you know that's #1 you see. #
Interviewer:  #2 Impossible. #
847:  Yeah impossible. #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Okay I get it. #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  Yeah it's
Interviewer:  That's good. uh okay what uh-what about a sexually indiscreet female, somebody who's-
847:  No she's a bitch.
Interviewer:  Okay any other names?
847:  uh She's from a bitch to a whore.
Interviewer:  Okay what about uh an indiscreet male? {NS}
847:  Well
Interviewer:  Are there any names?
847:  There really aren't any names I kinda- it depends on who I'm talking to I might say that person is promiscuous.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  I like to use that one it's it's kinda cute to me. #1 You know uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  I always say that in this- in today's society promi- promiscuity is running rampant.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 {NW} # And it is. You know
Interviewer:  {NW} You're right. uh okay uh What about what names do you have for a really ugly girl?
847:  A bat.
Interviewer:  A what?
847:  A bat.
Interviewer:  That's a {D: really odd} name.
847:  Yeah you know that's when you say a bat you know it's just #1 bad. #
Interviewer:  #2 Bad. #
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Anything else?
847:  uh I don't know I- we- we- there are so many different things depends on where you are you know like we've gone from dodo bird to bat uh or just plain ugly.
Interviewer:  Yeah. What about an ugly man?
847:  It mighta been goofball. uh it- Of course now goofball is an in- we usually thought about a goofball as being ugly plus what we would consider as not too hip you know like the country bumpkin type.
Interviewer:  Okay I get it yeah. Yeah okay uh what names do you have for a really intelligent person?
847:  Sharp.
Interviewer:  Anything else?
847:  uh I think sharp is you know like uh uh colloquially speaking sharp uh I go anywhere from uh I range with uh uh the person is uh I just say that they're intelligent.
Interviewer:  mm-kay um What do you call a place {C: noise} where the dead are prepared and kept before burial?
847:  That's a funeral home.
Interviewer:  Okay. Anything else?
847:  Depends on what I'm talking- it depends- if I was talking to you and didn't know you it would be a mortuary.
Interviewer:  That's interesting. But at home you could say
847:  Still a home.
Interviewer:  Okay what do you call a vehicle for transporting the dead to the burial place?
847:  That's always been a hearse.
Interviewer:  What do you call those buildings within the cemetery that are for burial of the dead-the buildings?
847:  I don't know I've always been inclined to call them a crypt.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm Anything else?
847:  No I used to wonder what was it nobody ever knew.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know uh and somehow or another it uh I guess Vincent Price brought the crypt to- to the- {NW}
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know really #1 that's- #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  that's when I started dealing with that was a crypt when I started watching horror movies.
Interviewer:  Okay what do you call a lazy non-working city employee? Is there any name in particular?
847:  No name in particular.
Interviewer:  Okay uh what do you call the headquarters of the police department?
847:  It's a police station.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  mm-mm It's either police station or jailhouse.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  #1 People used #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  to call it jailhouse.
Interviewer:  That was my next question. {NW}
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  And where they're locked up are there any other names for that? {X}
847:  uh If I was talking to someone who was in uh prison reform or prison corrections it's incarceration.
Interviewer:  Yeah. {NW} Okay if you were just talking at home what would you call it? uh Person's either been jailed or he's in jail. You know uh you say where's old so-and-so, he's in jail. uh-huh #1 Okay. #
847:  #2 You know # uh if he gets any time uh formal sentencing he's going to the pen.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know.
Interviewer:  mm-kay um I don't know if policemen carry them around here but policemen sometimes carry a club?
847:  That's a blackjack or billy club.
Interviewer:  What do you call the building that houses the firefighting equipment?
847:  Uh it used to be a firehouse and now somehow or another I call it the fire station.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  That's it.
Interviewer:  Um okay say somebody knows a politician well enough to secure personal favors. What do you call this kind of political influence he's got?
847:  Well even though that person to me is not uh a politician per se but uh uh so far as his uh uh his livelihood but then he's a politician. Always uh you know anybody that's in that uh political arena to me is a politician.
Interviewer:  mm-kay. Okay what do you call the influence itself you know you could say he's got real?
847:  I call it political influence.
Interviewer:  mm-kay. #1 {X} #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  um What do you call a public school for students in grades one through six?
847:  Grade school.
Interviewer:  Anything else?
847:  Elementary school.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  That's it.
Interviewer:  Okay uh what about grades seven through nine usually? It kinda varies.
847:  Well it was just rece- you alright- {NW} recent uh that I started associating that with uh middle school or junior high. uh Like I said there weren't even junior highs where I grew up and uh I've started learning what you know like I knew what junior highs were but then like uh you know we just didn't use junior high that much.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 uh # It was in the sixties when people started using junior high to integrate it cuz then I imagine it was mid sixties that I can remember people started talking about junior high schools quite a bit. uh And the middle school thing is something that's come on in the seventies.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  But
Interviewer:  It's the same thing?
847:  uh there's some distinction between middle school and junior high school, middle schools uh uh do more specialized education and so forth.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Uh they're sorta like the curriculum seems to be a little bit different but uh uh I think basically they're the same uh but the building structure itself is different uh like uh {NS} they have open classrooms uh. um They have uh group teaching and so forth instead of uh the uh uh I guess it's always been group teaching but not the way that they do group teaching now like sitting in the circles and that sort of thing.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  They do more of that in middle schools.
Interviewer:  {X} I never had any of that stuff so #1 of things. #
847:  #2 Well you know # like in middle school there would be no walls in here.
Interviewer:  Yeah I used to {D: be}.
847:  You know there would be walls you know what I mean but then like it's like the whole school is open.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know there's a class here and they can see the other class whatever they're doing and so forth.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah. #1 Okay. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  Okay what do you call um grades oh usually ten through twelve?
847:  That's high school.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  That's it.
Interviewer:  Okay uh what do you call a large enclosed area of a school where basketball games are played and sometimes they have music for dramatic performances? Mostly basketball games that are played there.
847:  That's a gym.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  Rarely I might use on a rare- on a rare occasion I might use uh gymnasium but I don't uh
Interviewer:  oh
847:  you know I don't uh I ju- it's just gym.
Interviewer:  Okay. um What other names do you have for a school bathroom?
847:  {NS} Toilet. uh After getting out of the army I might call it a latrine uh then I associate latrines with being big places maybe like uh in a municipal auditorium or someplace where they have a lot of stalls and a lot of ins- uh uh installations in there. Uh that to me is a latrine because in the first latrine I saw was one with probably twenty stools and uh twenty uh twenty urinals around the wall so then latrine to me had to be a place with uh a lot of receptacles #1 around. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  Yeah #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  so that's what I I kinda associate latrine and uh uh people have started uh- in my circle they- they use the john a lot.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Like uh well there's the john.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm yeah
847:  uh Cuz then toilet sounds sorta nasty. You know.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh So john is always like kind of a cute little name for it so we- it- there again is uh where you are. {NS} uh I think what I would be more inclined to ask uh where's your {D: bog} if it depends on where I- you know the
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  I think the social group uh if I uh am in the say in a fine home uh {D: the spot}.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  uh If uh I'm in a buffet it's restroom.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh Club, I'm looking for the restroom it's my {D: bog} and that's something that uh people to me need to make di- distinct different between uh going into someone's home and asking for the restroom and the {D: bar}. uh uh if they don't have a {D: bog} it's a lavatory. You know so it's- it's- it just depends on where you are like in my apartment there's no restrooms and there are no toilets. There are two {D: baths and}
Interviewer:  uh-huh yeah
847:  and I don't have a lavatory because uh it's not built like where you got lavatories in uh uh studios might be one downstairs.
Interviewer:  Now how are they different from one another?
847:  Well uh {NS} in a lavatory all you're gonna have is say a commode and a wash basin.
Interviewer:  uh-huh oh I see are the- any other names for that?
847:  mm
Interviewer:  Okay. do you think it's different what women- like polite okay like you were talking about john, people ask for the john because you think toilet sounds nasty. Well do you think women have a different term instead of john? Would they ask for the john or would they ask for something else if they were {D: trying to do it politely} #1 or kinda cute? #
847:  #2 {NW} # Women'll use lass for the john unless they're in that you know that real hip group.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 You know they'll # go through with it uh {NS} never really taken it much notice but I know that I will very rarely ever hear- do- do I hear that lady group of women
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 calling it # the john. it's either the {D: bog} or the restroom.
Interviewer:  uh-huh Okay uh what do you call the person who keeps the school clean and moves furniture and does minor repair work and stuff like that?
847:  It used to be the janitor now it's custodian.
Interviewer:  Okay. mm-kay uh When a student deliberately cultivates the favor and attention of the teacher you might say that the student is what?
847:  Teacher's- teacher's pet.
Interviewer:  mm-kay #1 anything else? #
847:  #2 uh # I just- imagine there's some little shortish names depends on whether or not you like the person or not
Interviewer:  Okay. {C: laughing}
847:  uh We uh oh yeah there's a good- suck ass.
Interviewer:  oh yeah
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh yeah you didn't like that one. #
847:  I didn't like that one though
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  just kinda I don't use that too much. uh I have to really dislike an individual before I would say that about 'em. uh They have- their actions would have to be real repulsive to me. uh People like that uh who have no morals no scruple no self respect you know self esteem no nothing- they just don't have anything uh to me once they get to the suck ass stage uh they're the weakest smallest people I know.
Interviewer:  That's about as low as you can #1 go. #
847:  #2 That's # about as low as you can get to me.
Interviewer:  Okay okay um what do you call that kind of fence that's made of uh interwoven steel or aluminum wire it has oh it has holes in it about this big?
847:  That's a Cox fence and that to me uh
Interviewer:  What kind of fence?
847:  Oh well well Cox is actually a brand name
Interviewer:  Oh okay.
847:  but uh that's all I've ever called it was a Cox fence.
Interviewer:  {X} um
847:  I just imagine the Cox people would like that too.
Interviewer:  Well I bet they #1 would. #
847:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
Interviewer:  uh what do you call a very tall building in the city that's used for offices or apartments?
847:  mm I guess I've always used skyscraper.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  Well now I don't know uh occasionally I might find myself describing the building as being a uh uh an excessive multistory building. uh Of course then that depends on what circle you're in again. uh uh We uh I used to work in uh in apartment maintenance and in apartment maintenance we started like uh you're talking about single story dwellings and so forth, you move to family dwellings and your single family dwellings and you started going into multistory buildings and multistory building is anything over two stories.
Interviewer:  hmm mm-kay uh What do you call a parking lot that has several levels built one above the other?
847:  That's a parking garage.
Interviewer:  mm-kay anything else?
847:  uh We used to have a thing that we used to call it pigeon hole parking.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm is that the same thing?
847:  Same thing.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  Pigeon hole parking uh- pigeon hole parking lot was a little bit different because it went up on a uh elevator you know like
Interviewer:  Oh.
847:  you could move a single spot along uh uh say it was uh four levels.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Or three levels. And it just took cars up uh I think cars could be parked two into a bay like and this thing would go up like a giant forklift and like cars would go up from there.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 You know. # So uh that was pigeon hole parking.
Interviewer:  What do you call a building equipped with automatic clothes washers and dryers?
847:  Well it started out to me being a washateria now it's the laundromat.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else?
847:  That's it.
Interviewer:  Okay what other words do you use for money?
847:  Bread.
Interviewer:  mm-kay anything else?
847:  uh Green, cash. Lines.
Interviewer:  What?
847:  Lines.
Interviewer:  That's a new one I haven't heard it.
847:  uh Well how did that happen? You have to- to- {NS} well let's talk about fishing, you got a fishing line right?
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  uh people cast out their lines and they see that they have a long line and a short line like uh you got- if you have a short line you can do better fishing- I mean a long line you can do better fishing
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 farther out. #
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh And a short line you don't get very much. So uh you know we uh I guess I can't remember exactly when we started calling money lines but uh it's like uh you say you know hey do you have any money, no my lines are short.
Interviewer:  Oh okay.
847:  I can't do- you know like uh that means uh that your purchasing power or whatever is going to be uh cut down. It's like uh I can't do very much fishing today #1 you know not #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  much I can fish for cuz my lines are short.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And uh usually with a dude got paid it's you know my lines are long today man
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  I like that.
847:  Yeah #1 so #
Interviewer:  #2 Well good. # um Okay what- what um what games did you play with your kids particularly hiding kind of games?
847:  Hide and go seek.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  How-how do you play it, how did y'all play it cuz I know there are a bunch of different ways
847:  Well we played like uh one person had to be the finder
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  well or the seeker and uh he had to either count to a hundred up to a specified number he had to count to uh with- supposedly with his eyes closed and back turned from all the action. And {NS} then if uh I forgot how we played the game. I- you know like you had uh that individual had to within three and a count of three say who was behind a certain rock or or behind a building or up on the porch or you know wherever that persons had been hiding.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh And like if uh when this person the one who was the seeker if everybody got back to the base where he had been counting off before he had to go to seek that meant that he had lost the game.
Interviewer:  Oh.
847:  Now the persons that he caught before he got back uh like he had to see that person and run back and touch that thing and say you know like you out.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 So uh # It- but if a person beat him back to it that meant that he he had won.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  So uh it was- it- it had to be the one that he caught.
Interviewer:  uh-huh yeah what other games did you have?
847:  uh Marbles were always a big game.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  Did you play for keeps when you played marbles?
847:  I didn't.
Interviewer:  I didn't either cuz I always lost.
847:  Well it was- I didn't like- well one thing I didn't want to lose my own and I didn't want to take anybody else's.
Interviewer:  I always got attached to my marbles and I had two favorites and I would've never given them up.
847:  Well you always had those kids who wanted like some people I didn't play with cuz they would try to break your marbles.
Interviewer:  aw #1 {X} #
847:  #2 You know uh # I didn't like playing with those type of people.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh I was more or less a loner, I didn't uh I didn't get involved with other kids too much in their games.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh I guess the rea- kids usually were very cruel and inconsiderate and just harsh in nature to me and uh I grew up uh around older people all the time uh so kids games just didn't bo- you know I didn't- you know I just didn't relate to 'em the kids too much.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Was your closest brother or sister a great deal older than you were?
847:  Well neither my- either by brothers nor my sister ever- uh any of us with me been real close.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh I was closer to my my grandmother, my aunt in this order my grandmother, my aunt and my mother.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 I was an # only child and I never even you know know what kids that much either I was so-
847:  Well I grew up virtually like I had an aunt of mine who was first black teacher out in a little town called {B} Texas. #1 and #
Interviewer:  #2 What town was it? #
847:  {B}
Interviewer:  Oh yeah I know where that is.
847:  It's between Lamesa and Tahoka.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Yeah. And I guess from the you know like age two, three you know around in there like uh uh my mother- my grandmother kept me quite a bit
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 cuz my # mother was working.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # And how long did you spend in {D: cotton}?
847:  Oh I don't know, like uh maybe a whole summer might be for nine months just #1 intermittently. #
Interviewer:  #2 Now wait was- # she was- wait your grandmother was she here in Dallas or was she in
847:  Well she'd come to Dallas sometimes and lots of times and spend a lot of time down {B} Texas with her.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh My aunt uh didn't have any children
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  and uh she wanted my grandmother to come out there and spend a little while with her so it just so happened I was with my grandmother at that time and uh my aunt got attached to me and I spent a lot of time out in west Texas with her
Interviewer:  uh-huh #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 uh # Lots of times when I got to Dallas it was like people thought I was uh- kids in the neighborhood didn't know who I was.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh They always uh thought about me as being the boy that came to visit.
Interviewer:  Oh #1 yeah. #
847:  #2 You know # #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 uh so I sp- #
847:  I spent a lot of time uh like uh I started grade school out there.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh I started school when I was five. uh that was in one of those classrooms where all eight grades were taught.
Interviewer:  Oh mm-hmm is that right?
847:  Yeah. There are very- there are very few people my age that probably could relate to the
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know #1 {D: back to back and uh} #
Interviewer:  #2 That's right, hard to. #
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  You remember the sandstorms?
847:  Oh do I remember the sandstorms.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh Like now I can almost tell you if I walk outside when it's gonna rain if it's gonna rain and so forth uh just by looking at the cloud covering you know you get a it's a feel way the way the wind blows and the stillness and the wind all that sorta thing.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Early in the morning when the fu- when the sun first come up
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  you can tell if there's gonna be a sandstorm at least I could
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 There # was a little haze just at just seems like below
Interviewer:  Oh I remember that.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  I went to school in Lubbock.
847:  You did?
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  I used to go to Lubbock all the time. uh #1 huh #
Interviewer:  #2 I remember # that haze. #1 when you could #
847:  #2 just that little # haze #1 and you could #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  eh b- between eleven and twelve o'clock and no later than twelve-thirty wherever you where the #1 sand was #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  up on you.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 Oh I #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  remember that.
847:  And
Interviewer:  Terrible.
847:  there were a lotta tumbling weeds around uh uh {B} and you could be out there were no trees seemed like there were tr- no trees #1 for #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  #1 miles. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  And if you were out walking and a sandstorm come up you'd better take cover because if {B} like so just plain open and I can remember many times getting run over by huge tumbleweeds. I thought those tumbleweeds were at least five feet high I realize they weren't that big but they used to stack up in the corners you know.
Interviewer:  Yeah, yeah.
847:  #1 And those #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  things were they were dangerous #1 too you know #
Interviewer:  #2 That's right. #
847:  they'd hit you.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh and I can remember many times running from tumbleweeds. and the worst thing I could about the sandstorm was in the springtime when the sand would blow it would have the tendency to rain sometimes.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh yeah. # uh-huh
847:  That to me was horrible. #1 uh-huh #
Interviewer:  #2 It was. #
847:  The the first school that they had in {B} was in a church building that had that wasn't complete. On a dirt floor. So there wasn't any floor in there at all
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Then the school board bought some old army barracks. They put two barracks together and uh course I guess during World War Two they didn't make barracks uh they didn't think that they were gonna be permanent anyhow.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  and like the door sills and the window sills and so forth were this far apart {NS} and when it would would have a sandstorm all that dirt and sand would blow in the house.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # And the school would cuz mine had a living quarters built into the school.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And uh I can remember when we used to wake up in the morning and just take the sheets and shake the sand off the blankets.
Interviewer:  Oh. #1 Well I have no {D: way to talk about this}. #
847:  #2 Just be gritty and nasty # all over #1 us. #
Interviewer:  #2 Terrible. # I've never seen it that bad but I've seen enough to know what you're talking about.
847:  Oh it was terrible.
Interviewer:  When did you come back back to Dallas permanently?
847:  #1 Oh it was #
Interviewer:  #2 Cuz you would come # back to Dallas all the time #1 is that right? #
847:  #2 Yeah, yeah. #
Interviewer:  Yeah but it's been maybe half a year or something else or more?
847:  Never more than half a year.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh There was a well I was in Dallas like every holiday. Thanksgiving Christmas
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Easter. Some Easters we didn't make it back. Every summer we made it back and we spent summers between Dallas Houston and Calvert. and uh occasionally traveling to Oklahoma and places like that.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh I got a lotta travel time when I was growing up.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh
Interviewer:  #1 When did- #
847:  #2 New Mexico. #
Interviewer:  When did you settle down {X}
847:  #1 mm I #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  guess that uh Ten. Ten, eleven, ten because uh Was in the seventh grade. I was ten then.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Well I was eleven yeah when I was eleven I was in the eighth grade that's right so I went to high school when I was twelve. Shoulda
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Course then that woulda been junior high then cuz I was in ninth grade.
Interviewer:  Yeah. You started out ahead of me. Talking about how you were ten in eighth grade?
847:  Yeah well I finished when I was sixteen.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Yeah. So uh
Interviewer:  Okay um do you remember any ring games like ring toss games? Things you used to play.
847:  mm Yeah. We used to play uh You know a horseshoe game.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  How do you, how do you, how did you uh play that?
847:  There was no specified distan- just as far as it was a distance that- that was- that was- that was uh comfortable for the best horseshoe pitcher.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  {NW} There's always somebody that that was better than the others and he'd always the you know like uh I could always hit the ring uh nothing but the stake in the ground and come pretty close at shorter distance than I was a longer distance.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Seemed like always cats that I would play with would place it farther away you know like because then they could their- their range was better than mine at long distance #1 so uh #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh #
847:  uh if- if you didn't play to well you had to kind of accept what the others did who played the game well.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Of course the farther away you put it then meant the better you were and so uh you would always be striving to catch up to people {X} with accuracy.
Interviewer:  Tell me about hide and go seek.
847:  mm-hmm
Interviewer:  What else did you play when you were a kid, we also talked about marbles.
847:  Marbles. There was a game uh called ring around the roses.
Interviewer:  How do you play that?
847:  uh This is where I forgot exactly how the game goes. uh and ring around the roses is where a group of kids would get together and form a circle uh then that one would be designated a chosen by means that I have forgotten to be in the middle of the ring. uh And then the uh circle would start in a motion say clockwise or counterclockwise uh and start singing this a uh rhyme something like uh little Sally Walker sitting in a saucer. uh then that person would uh
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah it would be uh little Sally Walker sat in a saucer so et cetera et cetera then rise Sally rise Sally rise I have forgotten uh uh I think uh I believe Sally was supposed to choose uh uh a lover or someone who she cared about or something like that a course I I don't remember whether or not when the boys went in the middle that uh if he was still Sally or if they #1 changed his name. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  uh but that's about all I remember about that particular game uh. Those were basic games that uh we played then uh.
Interviewer:  What other kind of games did you play in a circle like that?
847:  Course then there was always the party game that wasn't a circle game it uh was pin the tail on the donkey
Interviewer:  Oh yeah.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  That one uh there was another game blind blind man's buff I don't know uh
Interviewer:  What what's the name of that?
847:  uh it was it was either blind man's bluff or buff I never even uh thought about what was that last word I know we ended up saying it was buff but I believe it was blind man's bluff instead of buff B-U-F-F instead of B-L-U-F F.
Interviewer:  Do you remember how it went?
847:  Oh I don't remember. I I would recognize the game immediately if I saw #1 someone #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  playing it #1 though. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # Yeah. What kind of um did you have line games like anything like Red Rover or anything like that?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  Okay um What about ball or tin can games where you where you kick it or have a ball or something like that?
847:  Well playing ball I can remember playing ball what we called baseball
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh wasn't really baseball usually used a tennis ball. Uh the bat uh the object in which you were gonna hit the ball with either ended up being a piece of a two by four or one by four or #1 a broomstick or something. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Hard to hit # it with a broomstick.
847:  Yeah but uh kids back in I can remember we used to hit a ball as straight as you could about imagine because then the the outbound lines were the curb markers on either side of the street and usually the street was just a two lane street now so you can about imagine
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  how straight you had to hit a ball then.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh And we ended up hitting the ball pretty straight. uh the tin can it wasn't a game that we played we used to make things called uh tom walkers. The tom walkers were made out of say a number two tin can with wires uh strung through it whereas that you could hold the uh can on your feet uh by pulling up on the wire to hold cans on your feet. uh
Interviewer:  Oh and you walked on 'em?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Like stilts kinda?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Oh I get it.
847:  And after you after you graduated from the tom walkers you went to stilts
Interviewer:  uh-huh #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 So {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  Did you ever make it to stilts?
847:  Never made it to #1 stilts I wasn't that #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  coordinated.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh Then we played golf so on the golf course I think uh in the ghetto the introduction to the golf course or the poor neighborhood so we'd you know like golf courses were off limits except to the fact where if a kid be a caddy uh he could go to the golf course uh but so far as anything municipal uh courses or the private courses they were always off limits so we ended up uh uh making a uh say three hole uh three putting hole uh uh diamond like a baseball diamond or either you could set it up with four and you would just uh putt the ball toward the holes there was no specified distance or anything like that. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh #
847:  Usually it was through rocks and bricks and everything else uh lotta fun I just imagine some of those kids coulda been the greatest putters in the world if they had been able to putt on a real green.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know like if you can I I've seen the golfers going through this bit of uh removing a piece of pollen off the green course you know but sweeping it clean
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 uh # if only we coulda gotten our green clean as as many it it woulda had to have been the fact that somebody had to come in with a grater and and mash the place down but uh
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 uh # I used to bank balls off a fence I can remember uh I just the one putting hole we had was right at the it was at the base of a fence that was uh uh made out of two by fours and uh you got real good if you could bank the ball just like shooting pool but the only thing you had a greater distance and a slower ball.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh Got pretty good at that too.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  That was always was called a trick shot. uh That was always a winning shot if you could make one by banking it and another fella made it by shooting it straight in.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh Was a lotta fun.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh I didn't ever play very much say cards and card type games uh. Card games were taboo in uh my house because my mother was such uh uh big Christian and she didn't believe in playing cards.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  uh Most anything gambling type games she associated dominoes with gambling. uh uh I think it uh mighta been because usually the people that you saw sitting out even now pass by certain areas and you see people uh uh sitting out front playing uh dominoes which is uh obviously a good pastime uh
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  but uh it just wasn't the type of game that you associated uh nicer people with playing uh you know.
Interviewer:  I get it.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  That was sorta like the game that you uh always it was synonymous with going to a pool hall. Uh that was a pool hall game #1 then so #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  we didn't play dominoes or very many card games uh at all I think the only card game that I learned how to play uh as a kid was uh was it old maid I believe
Interviewer:  #1 Oh yeah. #
847:  #2 kind of game. #
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  We played that.
847:  but uh I know when I went into the service people were playing pinochle poker and other various card games and I was sitting there ignorant not even know how to play a course I learned how to play a few card games uh after watching for a while if you apt enough you pick them up but uh that might account for the reason why now I don't play card games uh unless uh that's my last resort I don't care who it's with. uh Chess was something that I learned uh to appreciate after getting grown uh I didn't ever know what one chess man was to another one.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh that was sorta like uh more of an aristocrat game you just didn't find uh and even right now uh people in certain classes they play poke- I mean uh chess uh. You don't find everybody playing chess.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Chess is more of an intellectual game anyhow.
Interviewer:  Yeah. That's true. What about checkers
847:  Yeah we did play checkers. But not we didn't play checkers on Sunday either.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  No okay.
847:  No games not no baseball no golf none of that business on Sundays.
Interviewer:  What did you do on Sundays?
847:  Oh Sunday was usually uh went to Sunday school went to church service uh after church dinner. It was very quiet
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 uh # not very many things to do.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh Sunday we'd usually spend in preparation for going back to school course there was a lotta school around vacation season or holiday uh that was another thing we just ended up uh either make having some makeshift games that uh would be accepted.
Interviewer:  uh-huh quiet #1 probably. #
847:  #2 Quiet # games.
Interviewer:  Yeah. uh Did you ever play anything like knife tossing games?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  What do you call those?
847:  uh I believe we used a knife and a uh a knife an icepick and that was called mumble peg.
Interviewer:  What?
847:  Mumble peg. uh I think uh something I believe as a matter of fact I know that {D: some people it was either mumbo peg or} {D: mumma} peg I don't know which one it #1 was. #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh #
847:  uh
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You you kind of uh uh go through the motions of saying something that you think that you heard sorta like this thing up here the communication problem and I know you believe you understand what you think I said but I'm not sure you realize uh what you heard is not #1 what I meant. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  uh
Interviewer:  {NW} I love it.
847:  #1 Yeah well you know like uh uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  like now I I believe that uh people are in the habit of repeating what they think they heard and if you ask them well what did that really mean all #1 they #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  know that they can associate is with what they have done but not really what it really meant.
Interviewer:  Yeah. I always used to sing a Christmas carol hark the herald period. Angels sing and I never could figure out what hark the herald meant. It wasn't until later that I realized that it's herald angels you know I was like in college when I realized.
847:  Yeah I think you st- I I I think you start to uh researching some of the things that you've said because it uh well to make sense to you you have an analytical mind it doesn't make sense so that means that you didn't really understand what you were doing as a child.
Interviewer:  Yeah, yeah. um Listen here there's another joke about that there's a hymn gladly the cross I bear and anyway the kid who came home said they called it gladly comma the cross I bear.
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 Well well did you #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  did you ever hear the joke of the uh the minister who uh addressed his congregation and said well I'd like for someone to uh uh select a hymn for us to sing this morning. And uh there was this homosexual who was in the back of the church he stood up and said I'll take him and him and him. {C: voice}
Interviewer:  #1 I don't believe it. I don't believe it. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW} Gosh. #1 Who knew. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  oh {X} Did boys jump rope?
847:  Not frequently. Uh most of the boys jump roped if uh there were some girls around that they wanted to impress or either be close to. Uh just as boys started up a rope jumping game no uh most boys uh might've become interested in rope jumping if they were engaged in uh say uh athletic uh competitions such as boxing uh something that uh rope would be a more applicable to so far as it being a training apparatus.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh but we just didn't uh rope jumping was either for girls or sissies
Interviewer:  Yeah, yeah. My husband can't jump rope because he didn't play football or anything you know he didn't box.
847:  Rope jumping was either for girls or sissies.
Interviewer:  Yeah, yeah. My husband can't jump rope because he he didn't play football or anything you know he didn't box or anything like that and consequently he can't jump rope.
847:  Yeah I I I knew some cats who could jump rope like they were made with rope under their feet but uh I just wasn't that coordinated.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  um What do you call different kinds of fast moving amusement rides that are on tracks like at the park?
847:  Well A roller coaster.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  But there was another name we used to call it I've forgotten what it was.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  uh I don't remember what it was. uh
Interviewer:  There any other kinds of games I mean kinds of rides like that?
847:  uh not so far as the roller coaster you know that's the biggest thrill at the fair.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 I could you could never get on #
847:  #2 uh or at the amusement park. # uh And I understand that the roller coaster we had here in Dallas was was like a uh a motorcycle to a Cadillac to a thing that they had built out in California
Interviewer:  #1 Oh that's right. #
847:  #2 that # uh goes over the ocean. uh
Interviewer:  hmm There would be no way you could get me on that no way.
847:  Uh now that was always uh there was a ferris wheel.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  But there was another name we used to have for ferris wheel. uh I don't remember exactly when I started calling it a ferris wheel
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  or why it's even called a ferris wheel.
Interviewer:  That's what I always called it too.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  um let's see oh What did you call some sort of initiation ceremony where older boys would beat up the younger kid or haze him or do stuff to him did y'all do stuff like that?
847:  No we didn't play that.
Interviewer:  Did you have a name for it?
847:  No I I think I became uh acquainted with hazing in the late fifties whereas it I was a relatively mature teenager
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  and reading about that was during the craze at the colleges whereas at uh colleges and the fraternal organizations that come under scrutiny of many people in the country because in that time there were a lotta deaths as a result of hazing.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 {X} #
847:  #2 So uh # uh That's just why I really started uh any paying any close attention to uh fraternal initiations and so forth. Uh we didn't engage in beating people uh I think the only beating you mighta received was on a birthday whereas that you got uh the amount of licks to the in in the in accordance with what your age might've been.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Did you ever get one more and call it something else?
847:  uh yeah it was called something else I've forgotten it. That was uh that last lick no it wasn't what it was like uh something related to one for next year something uh I've forgotten what it was
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah we hadn't named it but um okay say you're gonna get together with some friends and have a good time you say you're gonna get together and have a what?
847:  With friends?
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Depends on what we're gonna do now there oftentimes my friends and I might get together with us and we're gonna have a set.
Interviewer:  A what?
847:  A set.
Interviewer:  What is it?
847:  Set. What is a set?
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Well I would engage in a set usually with individuals who are close my closest acquaintances and friends.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh I go to a party If I go to uh what I consider as being a party would be uh whereas there's gonna be people there that I'm not acquainted with maybe just a few friends of mine.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Uh but with my friends we don't get parties we get sets and sets are usually more closed it's like a fraternal organization.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh
Interviewer:  Is it men and women?
847:  Men and women. uh At a set you usually people do whatever they wanna do. uh Whatever is their choosing. And course and uh this is the advantage of that being amongst friends and close associates is that uh no one feels inhibited about whatever their actions are.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm What what like for instance like we drink and do y'all sing? I know we have parties where we sing everybody sings. It's crazy we can't sing you know we're no good but everybody loves to sing.
847:  Well I never engage in those groups where the people got together and sing.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Yeah one reason's that uh I don't sing that well.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  and you tend to appreciate those things that you #1 can be a #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  standout in so I didn't engage in the singing #1 parties #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  too much uh. uh I can uh recall fellas who were very good vocalists and they they usually would be say in a singing group or either thought that they could sing
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  and that was a time for them to get together and show off.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  #1 So. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. {C: laughing} # Which didn't make you feel too good it #1 didn't. #
847:  #2 No. #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  They would be the center of attraction not that I wanted to be the center of attraction but I wanted to be noticed anyhow.
Interviewer:  Yeah at least.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  At least. um well okay say you didn't have a set this weekend um What would y'all do sit around and talk and laugh and or what I guess?
847:  Well
Interviewer:  But does it usually include drinking?
847:  For the alkies they drink. For the {D: weed as} they smoke weed if you got some that uh weren't involved in snuffs what we call snorting instead of sniffing coke that's their business you know.
Interviewer:  Yeah, yeah.
847:  Uh there are people who just come to the set just to eat.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # Usually uh most of the sets that I go on start after twelve. Between twelve and two and people will end up leaving five six and uh the stragglers who can't make it might leave at eleven oh clock the next day. uh And it's sort of a friendly type thing whereas it people uh whatever say for instance if it's at my house which rarely ever there is anything given at my house. uh Uh one reason is that I don't uh think that uh too much social entertainment should be done in the uh in the arena where your children are.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  Uh one thing is that uh you cannot uh depend on uh uh individuals to be uh to inhibit their action just because your family's there and you might get insulted about it and you lose a friend.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  So uh keep that sort of a situation down I just don't engage in too much entertainment at home.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # Most persons that do are usually single uh either they are might be a married couple with no children.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  So uh then you can uh gauge the activities that uh uh uh I just don't think that you mix family and your social thing together that much.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm What else would you call it besides a set? {X}
847:  Well it's a party.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 A party # is just not as close it's not as close friends is that it?
847:  No parties are usually uh more formal uh. You you might go and meet people and you uh like I said you're just restricted at a party. uh I I would think of an individual to be restricted some way or another at most parties because uh there's a front you have to keep up uh and then you're dealing with the unfamiliar and people are just are less prone to be themselves when they're around a group of people they don't know. And most parties do bring strangers together.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm Okay okay um okay what various names do you have for music records?
847:  Music records.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Platters. Sides. uh Tunes. uh I mean I guess uh most colloquial terms that we might use would be platter sides and tunes.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Does does that refer specifically to a kind of music like jazz or rock or whatever or can it be any type of music?
847:  It can be any kind of music. uh uh I think a good usage is side would be hey man did you hear that side by the O-J-s.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 uh # The response might be that was a cold tune uh uh either uh you another usage of tune would be have you heard the new tune that uh the O-J-s have? uh They put out some hip platters.
Interviewer:  uh-huh #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 You know # so uh
Interviewer:  What kind of music do you like?
847:  My music appreciation is varied it goes uh anywhere from chamber music to uh hard rock and blues.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh I have a deep appreciation for the music art and I think it's something that's uh beautiful it's a matter of expression. uh I often wondered how did some people only listen to one type music.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Always felt like an individual who could only appreciate one music his life was a little bit imbalanced. uh And it really is uh I particularly the moods of music uh you have some music that's happy some music that's sad and some music that uh is tranquil.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh there's very little rock music that has any tranquility about it
Interviewer:  This is true.
847:  uh I think well I let's take uh there are very few minorities I know beside perhaps Charlie Pride who likes western and hillbilly music but I like it.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Which uh western and hillbilly music however you wanna call it has been a part of my culture due to the fact that I grew up uh I spent a lot of my growing up days in west Texas.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  There was a time in west Texas on the only opportunity that you got to hear anything other than western music was late at night or else you had a pretty good radio that could pick up bands outside of your area.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh I don't know where my first association with classical music came from. uh It might have been with the first time that I heard Swan Lake. uh And it had to have been somewhere along that time because I I can remember the uh uh Swan Lake and some of the uh uh like uh Tchaikovsky's uh Nutcracker Suite and things of that nature that uh {NS}
Interviewer:  mm Too bad you know. Okay uh you see did you have any other um terms for like jazz would you call it jazz anything else?
847:  Jazz has been basically jazz. Jazz is a uh music a music that uh basically hasn't changed that much uh. The people that appreciate jazz are usually the same type people. uh As a matter of fact there's been a decline in jazz jazz is uh has been declining over the last five six years #1 who knows. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm #
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh # Wonder why.
847:  Well I I I would believe that uh number one is that uh uh jazz is usually a deeper and more sensitive type music. Uh the era of jazz uh music does uh tell a story about the era in which it has been written in which the era in which it has been played. For instance the happy tunes of the twenties or the tunes of the late sixties and early seventies will uh will depict if you listen to 'em twenty years from now what the mood of the country was at that particular time. Uh there has been a change in mood and attitudes and this is the reason why jazz is not as uh prevalent in music as it was a few years ago. Uh there were no real attempts to uh to uh salvage uh save jazz uh the image of jazz uh becau- one thing the image of jazz had been bad for a long time. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 How's that? #
847:  Well most people associated jazz musicians with narcotics um dope as people called it uh uh particularly marijuana.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 Uh at the # time that they were calling the weed the evil the evil killer the weed
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh so uh and there were a lotta jazz musicians who had gotten busted because then they were the targets of uh law enforcement officials I uh uh people just did not believe that an individual could uh psyche himself out to play like that and uh uh go for the {D: trancing} mood it seems as if that some fine jazz musicians might've gone through. So consequently it uh taking on that light I believe that a lotta people tended to move away from jazz. uh Uh one thing that was a music that usually wasn't played uh in your better music theaters uh it wasn't played in your uh better homes uh they just associated it the same as they would associate honky tonk music. uh There seems to be a uh some concern in some areas about uh reviving the uh jazz.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh I think doing- uh I believe it as a matter of fact I I see some clear indications uh here recently that uh Dallas is producing fine jazz musicians also uh and you know just to add to that statement uh and I've noticed in the last uh six months or to the last year uh they have started backups and jazz sessions on Sundays.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 uh # There is a place in Dallas now that uh the recovery room where you can always hear some of the better jazz musicians uh from uh from the fifties and sixties.
Interviewer:  At the recovery room.
847:  At the recovery #1 room. #
Interviewer:  #2 Funny # name.
847:  Yeah. #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # That's good that's good. Gotta recover from your work week.
847:  But uh I think what it is is that the times are changing now people are becoming more supple in their roles in society. uh There will always be a social role the so called activists but then not on the same level we have to start looking for some new issues pick up the new issues from the things that Congress is finding itself doing now. Uh we were too busy with other things prior to having kinda you know so this is oughta keep 'em busy.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  So the it's change uh people uh I've noticed that uh doing the bicentennial of course bicentennial year coming up that uh people have a more somber mood about uh their past and the things that have happened to 'em. uh Just this year the nineteenth of June was revived uh back on a big scale
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh It it's sorta like the issues are dead but people still feel like there's something that uh needs to be done.
Interviewer:  Yeah uh would you describe for me all the stuff that that uh the blacks did for Juneteenth?
847:  Well you know like Juneteenth is a big day #1 it was just #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  like Christmas.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah what all happened #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  this year?
847:  Well for one Dallas had its first and once it was built it was the largest black rodeo west of the Mississippi. uh Sure had hell been west of the Mississippi anyhow it coulda been east west north or south #1 of the Mississippi #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  but not in Mississippi three years ago.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # I don't have I I think it's sort of a standing joke to talk about Mississippi people really don't even have the vaguest idea of what goes on in #1 Mississippi. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  uh There was a parade here. uh There were sessions uh in like in parks where people made dialogs and uh uh social events the past and the future and things of that nature particularly what we're dealing with presently. It was a matter of getting people's mind uh more unified uh by bringing back some of those things that uh created the situation of freedom in this area.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  And Juneteenth was the day that?
847:  Juneteenth was actually six months after the day day that the slaves found out about the Emancipation Proclamation had been signed that uh they had their freedom uh and it took that long for that to come down to Texas.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh Then as the word had gotten to Texas it was on the nineteenth of June that uh slaves in the South uh uh well you would call it South Central Texas uh down or either North Texas Mexia Texas uh which is uh synonymous to Negro history as the Chisholm Trail is to the West. uh this is where many slaves uh crossed the uh river. uh Down in that area which was a Comanche crossing they called it and I just imagine the Comanche crossing had something to do with the Indians that were uh in that area
Interviewer:  mm-hmm Okay let's see. um #1 Did #
847:  #2 Now #
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 at # Comanche crossing there are people that come from all over the states who migrated away from Texas come back home for that particular day I was #1 amazed #
Interviewer:  #2 Is that right? #
847:  to find that out myself and I just found that out in the last couple years. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Neat. #
847:  I have uh several friends of mine who have relatives who specifically won't take their vacation any other time and time come down for the week long celebration of the nineteenth in Mexia Texas at the Comanche crossing.
Interviewer:  That is neat I didn't know that. I knew about I knew about the nineteenth but I didn't know that Mexia had you know.
847:  Oh you know like then then like uh if you go back to the forties and the uh fifties uh late forties and fifties and I can remember then the nineteenth was the the nineteenth and the uh negro achievement day was the only day that blacks could use the facilities at the state fair. So uh
Interviewer:  You're kidding.
847:  Oh no this was back you know.
Interviewer:  Oh I can't believe it.
847:  Two days outta the whole year. #1 You know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Depressing. #
847:  uh So that was like a real big day people dressed up on the nineteenth like it was like going to church on Easter.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 Go to fair park. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  uh
Interviewer:  Great a great {X}.
847:  It was a great day you #1 know uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah not too # great that it was the only one or one of two. um What are the names of some neighborhoods in Dallas that are either black or brown some minority uh that are main mainly low in economic and social status?
847:  Oh there is let's take west Dallas.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh Which we back in the fifties started calling the coast.
Interviewer:  The coast?
847:  Yeah #1 well you associate #
Interviewer:  #2 I didn't know that. #
847:  west Dallas by you know like West Coast.
Interviewer:  #1 Oh. #
847:  #2 And we # {D: here}
Interviewer:  #1 Oh okay. #
847:  #2 {NW} # so
Interviewer:  I like #1 that. #
847:  #2 That's an # elaborate name to give west Dallas and the projects and then festered in the disease infested rats and roaches and all you know so uh.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Say uh this is how people psych themselves out.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 And who # all lives in west Dallas?
847:  West Dallas is a is an area that uh predominantly I guess it's might at one time it was almost fifty fifty black and brown not fifty fifty because then you had a population of whites that went in there and you don't have that. This is very population of whites is very low in west Dallas right now. uh You mostly get uh citizens that live out there now are either black or brown.
Interviewer:  uh-huh are there more browns? I have I haven't #1 even asked you the #
847:  #2 Well #
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 well what has happened # uh No I doubt if there are more browns in west Dallas than there are in uh say blacks in west Dallas what we you have a situation now say in just west of downtown which you could almost call uh north Dallas so far as we uh minorities talk about east west north and south in a more limited term than uh uh say do whites. uh
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Alright let let's take for instance uh east Dallas.
Interviewer:  okay
847:  I grew up in east Dallas east Dallas to me was a uh pocket area contained uh perhaps by uh encompassed by maybe uh ten square blocks of the area of east Dallas that I lived in which was called the string.
Interviewer:  The what?
847:  The string. Well and it was a string because and it it only represented a minute portion of that so called black east Dallas population. Where it was the most populous part of the black community in east Dallas was uh uh divided by a railroad track and a bridge that you had to get over to the other side that we called the sands. We called it the sands because at that time there were very few paved streets down there they had red sand in the streets.
Interviewer:  Oh.
847:  And uh it got called uh {X} sands and uh it was most populous area uh in east Dallas because then the government projects was built down in that area so then that had a high concentration of people in a small area. Well the limited area that uh uh why minorities associate the limited area is that they uh seldom ever think beyond those boundaries which have encompassed that ghettos they live in.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh For instance uh uh when you talk to whites in Dallas they usually consider all of the southern part of the counties being south Dallas. Well then blacks uh before that you started moving into uh the south and southwest part of Oak Cliff uh Oak Cliff was Oak Cliff and it was a very distinctive thing you didn't think about south Dallas because then you only consider south Dallas as being that part where the blacks live in south Dallas.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh West Dallas uh is has been uh perhaps uh the greater territorial area than any other part of town. North Dallas was generally thought about uh within this area that we're talking about now that perhaps is a six to eight block uh radius that uh would cover all of north Dallas and in uh in blacks' minds of course uh.
Interviewer:  What do you think is about the northern bound northern boundary of north Dallas?
847:  Well now we have more been been more prone to call that north Dallas. but usually when we moved part past uh Swiss Avenue I don't even think Swiss out Lemmon uh cross Oak Lawn course then the- you have the Oak Lawn area which is a part of north Dallas Oak Lawn is a very distinctive {C: noise} uh part from the rest of Dallas of course then Oak Lawn sort of divided what we call north Dallas and Highland Park. Uh either from uh Oak Lawn to uh University Park but it just wasn't related to as being north Dallas.
Interviewer:  mm-kay would you explain to me what Highland Park and University Park are?
847:  okay Highland Park and University Park is everybody's mind is that everybody lives in uh I won't I won't say everybody I'd say that uh ninety nine and forty four one hundred percent of the minorities who think about Highland Park and University Park will soon tell you rich white folks live out there. Uh cuz the only way that you can really say that uh
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh there's only that is the best candid way to describe that and it's the truth.
Interviewer:  Yeah, yeah.
847:  So. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  It's true.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 That's right. # {NW}
847:  I I can remember that uh when in uh Highland Park if a black male was caught in Highland Park after the sun went down he was usually stopped and queried and then most likely arrested by Highland Park police because then well what are you doing out here.
Interviewer:  uh something not really great.
847:  I drive out that way occasionally now and people still give you that old stare. oh what are you doing out here #1 you can read that look #
Interviewer:  #2 uh uh-huh # #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 all the time #
Interviewer:  You'd just be coming to pick up your wife who's cleaning somebody's house or something huh?
847:  I'll tell you damnedest thing that happened to me uh few nights ago I was out far north Dallas L-B-J. uh uh I was out at uh car dealership out there looking at cars. And my car was parked on the {C: thump} street and I was {C: noise} walking around to get in the car and there was this old rich white man he had to be rich he had a real big Fleetwood Brougham.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Brougham we call it Brougham. {C: pronunciation}
Interviewer:  #1 mm-kay I #
847:  #2 Get that one down. #
Interviewer:  got that one down.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # uh This cad was a half a block away from me going down the street and he locked his doors.
Interviewer:  {NW} I don't believe it.
847:  It hit him you know like when he passed by me he gave me the old eagle eye you know what are you doing out here #1 and it hit him #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh #
847:  maybe I'd better lock the door.
Interviewer:  Yeah he was that looks like a dangerous one.
847:  And I said Damn how I you know how I could just catch figure that I'm gonna you know {NS} super black I had to be.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 {NW} # With my cape on
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 Yeah, yeah. #
847:  #2 That's how I would catch him. # Then I was at a service station out there. This dude got out to put some gas in his car. A self service. He looked over at me and I'll be damned if he didn't lock his car doors and he's outside putting gas in the damn thing. #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW} That's funny.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 That is really funny. # Oh that's good that you gotten where you can laugh about that kind of thing the kinda thing that happens to me it of course it's different but as a woman I yeah I haven't been able to laugh at some of the stuff that happens to me like I went to the grocery store the other day okay manager never seen him before I think he's new didn't know him or anything anyway he came up and um I was at the express checkout you know the one where you're supposed to go fast. I stand there and I was getting annoyed anyway because they're supposed to be just right there and I had to wait like five minutes or more and I had two things. And um this guy came up and said um he took my money and he rang it up you know and he said will that be all little lady? And if I had been real fast on the draw I would have said that'll be all little man. But course I didn't think to do that until I got back out to my car but I mean smoke just coming out of my ears and I just #1 go ugh. #
847:  #2 {NW} # Well #1 that's #
Interviewer:  #2 but it was # not funny. {NW}
847:  That was either a chauvinistic approach to speaking to a lady either he was flirting how old was he?
Interviewer:  He wasn't flirting.
847:  He wasn't #1 flirting. #
Interviewer:  #2 I could tell # that. He wasn't he was in a hurry he wanted to get rid of me #1 and move on to the next person. #
847:  #2 He wanted to get rid of you. # Yeah.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah and he was #
847:  #2 You can read # that one. Always.
Interviewer:  Yeah. ugh
847:  As if to say I hope you don't have anything else.
Interviewer:  Yeah, yeah. {NW} Okay let's see did we take care of the low social and economic neighborhoods? Did we get through to them all?
847:  Oh I I believe we might have because we we talked about uh course no we didn't mention there's a section in Oak Cliff that was called the bottom. uh Now the bottom was loc- situated just below the basin of the uh levee system that had been put up uh to like a damming system for the Trinity River.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh These houses were situated like up in a hole. uh I mean that whole area is sorta flat after going down.
Interviewer:  Yeah I bet it flooded too. {C: background noise}
847:  It flooded over there all the time. Just flooded all the time.
Interviewer:  ugh
847:  uh There were a lotta houses like built up on uh what I call stilts.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  uh so like {X} in Japan.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah #
847:  #2 But # uh really not that bad though it just used to during raining season it would flood out there course one thing the sewage systems weren't that good. uh And it was just the cheapest land that people could probably buy over there.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And that was the in that in that area uh was perhaps uh in Oak Cliff the area blacks uh the area that blacks lived in in Oak Cliff uh probably encompassed no more than a uh five six blocks radius and that was all of Oak Cliff.
Interviewer:  Goodness.
847:  So far as the blacks were concerned.
Interviewer:  I see that was Oak Cliff.
847:  Yeah that was Oak Cliff that's
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh I live out in Kessler Park now. And uh I was telling an old teacher of mine uh so he's saw him last week and he said where do you live and I said in Kessler Park and he said you and how many others? Uh what he meant was that uh he related to Kessler Park as being like uh synonymous to Oak Cliff with Highland Park and University Park is to uh north Dallas.
Interviewer:  ah
847:  #1 uh that #
Interviewer:  #2 I get it. #
Interviewer:  Because you meant a real small area you meant
847:  Well he he thought well he what he was alluding to was that uh you just didn't hear blacks ever saying that they live in Kessler Park. They used to work in Kessler Park cuz because Kessler Park is a very exclusive area where you have mansions uh just imagine I I see homes out there now that are maybe forty years old that had to cost two hundred thousand dollars #1 to build #
Interviewer:  #2 mm #
847:  back then so uh
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  no we didn't say we lived in Kessler Park. Best people'd say is I work in Kessler Park.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  uh-huh okay uh okay are your what names are there for various white neighborhoods that are low in social and economic status?
847:  Well ironically let me tell you what about that. uh There were very few neighborhoods when I was growing up that we ever thought that poor white people lived in.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  Yeah. Except for in west Dallas.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh I kind of associated west Dallas with stories that my daddy used to tell me because then uh Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker used to live in west Dallas.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Uh and during his early gambling days they used to hang out at his place.
Interviewer:  Is that #1 right? #
847:  #2 yeah # uh
Interviewer:  Ha ha that's neat.
847:  Yeah that's the good thing about having a dad as old as my dad is #1 you you know #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  like I can related to a lotta history that uh other people just can't relate to uh and then by him being an outgoing uninhibited individual
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  sporting gentleman
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 gambler or # hustler you know
Interviewer:  Yeah. {NW} You know you {X}
847:  where they have it all. uh You know so consequently I have a lotta people that uh I have a great deal of knowledge about uh years ago in Dallas.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  It's sorta like firsthand information and I my daddy has never been one to tell a lie that put directly so I kinda believe most of the thing #1 that uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # Yeah. That's neat. Um where are some um areas where poor white people live now?
847:  Oh
Interviewer:  Yeah?
847:  uh
Interviewer:  Presently.
847:  Well what we consider as being where poor whites live in Dallas even though they there are a great number of poor whites in the inner city most of 'em out in the county area in these small little communities like uh uh Garland. uh Mesquite. uh that {C: noises} DeSoto is growing to be a middle class town now. uh Balch Springs. uh Grand Prairie.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh Irving. Irving is becoming a more of a uh middle class city now. uh Course you know what's creating that though. What's creating that is the white flight from the inner city.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  Yeah so uh but you still have uh your greatest concentration of poor whites in east Dallas.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 In east # Dallas County at least.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm Okay what are some neighborhoods that um blacks who are higher in socioeconomic status live in?
847:  Where do they live?
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Now there there is a very exclusive what I would call an exclusive neighborhood there are some blacks who are segregated out in that neighborhood on that old street called McShann Road who was named after the McShann family. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Where's that? #
847:  South off of Preston Road. Uh it's near uh L-B-J Freeway off of Preston. uh Most of the blacks that live in that area are {NS} all the professionals are high professionals like doctors dentists and so forth. um You have several persons that won't say several I say several two or three that are that are out there that uh have made their business uh have made their fortune in the retail business one in particular like in the liquor business. uh One fellow who owned a restaurant became a millionaire he lives out in that area. Uh now Oak Cliff is an area where you have a a mixture of the economic levels of blacks that live out there who do live uh in the same neighborhood in comparable uh uh levels of home so far as cost is concerned. Uh and they could range anywhere from a maid porter doctor lawyer what have you.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 uh # It depends on the sacrifices that individuals have been able to make. uh At one time there was no real distinction between where anybody really lived. Uh at one time what we call over here north Dallas is where most of your aristocratic blacks lived uh like along Thomas Avenue uh and Washington uh {X} avenue over in those areas
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 which is # right around built around in this area.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh uh
Interviewer:  What about Hamilton Park? What's that? #1 {X} #
847:  #2 Well # Hamilton Park uh is an area that was started back in the early fifties uh uh what had happened was that uh in the inner city there were was not enough houses uh uh there was not enough uh uh dwelling facilities for blacks in town so then they started a uh community out in how- in Hamilton Park whereas it uh it was in the fifties where particularly affluent blacks uh economics uh conditions started to uh on an upswing and they started building houses and homes out in that area.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Uh so Hamilton Park would be to me the first area that was exclusively built for those minorities that had enough money to uh uh say buy homes uh only only in a large scale. Uh the rest of the houses and homes that I can uh think about that uh uh blacks moved into in Dallas uh were always that they took over where the whites left off. uh I just was over in south Dallas uh which is right in the heart of south Dallas right in the middle of the ghetto now. I can remember when blacks' homes were bombed in that area because they started buying into what was called a white area.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  #1 You know. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm #
847:  So uh and that was in the fifties. {NS}
Interviewer:  Not that long ago.
847:  Yeah that wasn't that long ago I would imagine it was around between fifty two and fifty five that these #1 things #
Interviewer:  #2 mm #
847:  happened.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm Besides highland park and university park where would you say uh most whites live who are you know of upper social and economic brackets?
847:  Well Kessler Park. uh west Oak Cliff which is fastly becoming a black area it's just what part of uh what people down here don't particularly understand. De facto segregation is going on they don't uh really know it yet but it's been happening for years.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh So now the uh {NS} Preston Hollow.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh Which is just beyond University Park, Highland Park going north. Richardson. uh Which uh which you mentioned Hamilton Park Hamilton Park is in the Richardson Independent school district.
Interviewer:  School district.
847:  uh There are in the areas that border L-B-J Freeway moving into Richardson, Carrollton, Farmer's Branch {NS} uh {NS} all the way around to Irving it's sorta like a circle they're going into now. uh {NS} White Rock area. White Rock is that section of east Dallas that we didn't generally think {C: buzz} about uh any {C: thumps} farther than uh say uh uh Grand Avenue {C: buzz} or Samuels Avenue where the apartment area started out back before there. {C: buzz, thumps} uh {C: thumps} As an indication of what the uh White Rock area might be uh I talked about uh {C: noises}
Interviewer:  White rock #1 area. #
847:  #2 Well # as a matter of reason why we {D: talk about a} White Rock area you know I mentioned earlier that we uh got Lawther Lane which is right around White Rock Lake.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh It's so uh if the world's richest man lived out there certainly I know some rich people in White Rock so. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  Yeah that's true.
847:  uh That just about hit most of the uh uh areas now of course we're going back uh in north Dallas uh {C: noise} just beyond Love Field area across Northwest Highway. {C: background speech} Now there are {C: background speech} homes and uh individuals that are living out in that area. {C: background speech} uh I would say that's bordered between uh Inwood Road back to uh Central Expressway. uh {C: background speech} Uh that is an area in there that I've mentioned that you have a {C: background speech} uh a great concentration of rich Jews that live in that area.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  So uh
Interviewer:  That's right.
847:  You know so it's sorta like you {D: pick at on up} outta that one.
Interviewer:  {X} Right here. {NS} Now that's the microphone right there. It doesn't matter if they get me. But the embarrassing thing is a lotta times I listen to these tapes later and my voice is just this clear it sounds great and the informant sounds like they're way off in another room you know. ugh You know my {X} same school. because I saw you like I think {X}
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  And now you {X} {NS} Most of my classes are downtown {X} and one day I was uh I was working on a lab down there this was like last spring I guess. And I was sitting there and one of the audiologists went by and asked for {X} is out in the hall just going by he said have you had Calvin McCoy before? And I said wait I know that person. Was that you did you go for a hearing test?
847:  Yeah that was me.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 uh # As a matter of fact that person that uh asked {X} one of 'em I don't know which one it mighta been was working for the doctor that I go to.
Interviewer:  Oh I see.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  I see.
847:  uh But I have tried to go on my own really go to county because I thought that the doctors that I was going to uh did not uh he just wasn't satisfying me.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And I did discover that uh there was a hearing loss that I have suffered.
Interviewer:  Oh #1 really? #
847:  #2 um # uh from the uh {X} to next doctor.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And the doctor had never given me a hearing test and that bothered me #1 too. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  So I'd get better on my own and eventually the uh this last doctor that I went to I told him about my test with {X} and he says well Calvin I I would just hear it all cuz now and let her do it and lo and behold it was the lady who had given me {X} uh
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh um at county.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh that's funny.
847:  #1 Yeah and #
Interviewer:  #2 You # get her name?
847:  mm It was a real funny name. Kim, Rim something like that. I have her card now I don't know exactly where it is. #1 um #
Interviewer:  #2 I have # {X} but I don't think she was working long hours this weekend. #1 um #
847:  #2 Now this # is this person's last name.
Interviewer:  Oh.
847:  Wasn't a common name.
Interviewer:  I don't know all of 'em like I might know more
847:  But she was concerned about if I was just shopping around and that's what my doctor told me said uh thought I just was concerned about if you were just shopping around cuz she knew I was going to several doctors and she had recommended two or three doctors to me.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah? #
847:  #2 So um #
Interviewer:  {X} I mean I could #1 {X} #
847:  #2 Well he told # well I guess she was telling him for his benefit this cat might be a uh a kook or something you know I know he's going to all kinda doctors.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And uh
Interviewer:  Maybe he's a hypochondriac.
847:  Yeah so um I'm not a hypochondriac but I just know that uh I explained to him he said oh no he said that's he said if you're not satisfied with your doctor he said sometimes a physical problem uh can be created by a mental disturbance by mental disturbances but you don't have any confidence in the person that's treating you.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And uh I explained to him that I knew the answers that I was getting that I wasn't satisfied with it. And I wasn't perhaps {D: quite honestly} totally satisfied with him. And he says well what all have they done? And I explained to him all of the things that I have done even like getting this um um allergy test.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  It cost me two hundred and fifty dollars.
Interviewer:  Yeah I believe #1 it I have #
847:  #2 You know well #
Interviewer:  it too #1 {X} #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  {NS} #1 {X} #
847:  #2 {X} #
Interviewer:  healthy {X}
847:  Um fella named {B}
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Course he works out at uh and the professional building out at {X}
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And the doctor that sent me to him the guy who referred me to him was a doctor {B} and he spelled his name {B} The very way I would spell {B} I had him {D: singing}.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  #1 And I #
Interviewer:  #2 Probably # {X} #1 {X} #
847:  #2 I that's # and I told him I said you know you have perhaps the only correct spelling {B} He said what do you mean? I {B} and that's the way most people pronounce it, they don't say {B}
Interviewer:  That's true. #1 Very true. #
847:  #2 You know uh # {B} #1 you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Nobody # spells it that way. {NW}
847:  #1 I don't know #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Anyway like I said I ended up with these things here from uh my uh allergy test.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Which were they put 'em in three categories. Uh one was pollen and grain and um in pollen and grain there was an insect pollen that's considered as {D: heavy}. Now the insect pollen I don't know what that one is but it's anywho and uh the pollen that uh that grows from uh.
Interviewer:  Like flowers #1 and things? #
847:  #2 Like flowers # and trees and whatever pollen comes #1 from #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  uh And then he they took three categories of those or four and there was the trees like the willow maple, oak and a {X} I don't know what that is.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  And the spring pollens what they call spring pollens {X} uh {NS} mountain cedar and whatever else was on there I don't know exactly what that is. Wheat bur, dock weeds plantation weeds uh and these are things that you can get from. In a uh in late spring dock weed and the plantation weed will grow.
Interviewer:  I think I know what dock weed's like #1 haven't heard of plantation. #
847:  #2 uh # And they call those windblown pollens.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  Uh then there's your ragweed uh sagebrush tumbleweeds and cocklebur.
Interviewer:  #1 Like little grass burs? #
847:  #2 You know what a cocklebur is? # Yeah. {NS}
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  {X} grass burs {D: were green the color of} cockleburs and that's what the doctor told me it was and I know that says well you mean what do you call 'em, stickers uh.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 We didn't # call 'em cockleburs. There is a difference between the cocklebur and the what we used to in west Texas call a goathead. A goathead is a it's a um it's a sticker like it sticks you if you step #1 on it. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm # #1 It's dry. #
847:  #2 It # and yeah #1 it's #
Interviewer:  #2 Awful. #
847:  dry and it's very hard and it has very sharp it's it's just like a a knife they are you know #1 but uh #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm #
847:  the uh more prone to come off of it, And then a cocklebur is not as quite as bad. Now a cocklebur has sorta more like a furry type
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 in #
Interviewer:  I know what you're talking #1 about that. #
847:  #2 It was a # {D: he said} he said. Now the stick
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  well that reminds me of a cocklebur.
Interviewer:  Yeah it's like that.
847:  Now the goathead that little sticker.
Interviewer:  Big, they're bigger is one thing I think they're big.
847:  No they they're smaller they're about the size of the head of this thing here. And it might have three or four little prongs that are sticking off of it but you talking about something that'll hurt you.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And I've seen dogs #1 step on it. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {D: socks}.
847:  Yeah. They really hurt too.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah.
847:  So now I know the difference #1 between #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 you know the # difference between a cocklebur and a goathead.
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 That's very # important if you live in west Texas like tumbleweeds
Interviewer:  That's right it's #1 hanging #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  in the air.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW} Tell me again we've been over this but it's been so long. Where you were born and where how long you lived where and you know where you when you moved to where and
847:  Where I was I was born? in {B} Texas and that's in south Texas. Uh I guess you could say it's south central {NW} But I I don't I didn't live there that long I lived uh um when I say I was born in {B} that was my mother's home.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Where she was born. And it just so happened she was there when I uh when the urge came for me to come out.
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  So. {C: laughing} And meet the world.
Interviewer:  Therefore you have to put that on #1 forms right like. #
847:  #2 Yeah you gotta put that down there yeah #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  uh we uh Course the family was here in Dallas. uh but I spent a great deal of my growing up uh I would say my I what I would consider as my formative years in {B} because that's where my grandmother was and I spent a lotta time with her.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Uh at I I remember at age five my aunt was teaching in west Texas in a little town called O'Donnell Texas #1 that's #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh. # Yeah I've heard of O'Donnell.
847:  #1 You know where O'Donnell is? #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  Forty miles
Interviewer:  I used to date a boy from O'Donnell.
847:  well you know Hoss Cartwright was #1 from O'Donnell. #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. # {NW}
847:  #1 uh and I #
Interviewer:  #2 O'Donnell's # claim to fame.
847:  Well but you see when they printed this in the paper they said he was from uh De Kalb or Harris, Texas or someplace like that. And I said Dan Blocker perhaps the thing that happened to him was the same thing that happened to me with Calvert, Texas and De Kalb, Texas to him. Cuz he actually grew up in O'Donnell. And uh I knew the family knew him and uh it was always look at that when I see uh his biography and they all say you know Dan Blocker in De Kalb Texas and I #1 say #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  that's a lie you know and I
Interviewer:  Is he really?
847:  Yeah it's
Interviewer:  {D: I'll be.}
847:  uh
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Yeah his r- # his uncle was named J-D. uh His daddy was an uh worked in the market all the time he owned a grocery store in O'Donnell.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh So I knew the whole family. #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 Was he always this # great big guy? #1 {X} #
847:  #2 Always big. #
Interviewer:  huh
847:  And he was uh sorta like a typical big cowboy kid who grows up in a small town. He was a hell raiser.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  I remember.
Interviewer:  Isn't that funny.
847:  Yeah they bought him uh he had a old black Chevrolet and he was going to Hardin-Simmons.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  and he used #1 to come home #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  and raise all kinds of hell he played football at O'Donnell High. And that team was a was the yellow jackets and I don't think {D: he used his} jacket at all you know cuz he was such a huge thing. When he was a when he was fifteen years old he looked you know he must've been weighing two fifty. uh But he was a big kid. #1 you know. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 Probably had to # be a kid like that. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 That # He was he you know when I say he was a hell raiser he was just mischievous.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 He was # always into something.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  And I don't remember that big smile he always he would do something and just smile you know.
Interviewer:  He could kinda get away with murder #1 with that smile. #
847:  #2 He yeah that # smile let him #1 get. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  They had a good they have a good family there. {D: Uncle J-D.} uh Always thought J-D was kinda queer. He wasn't married but I knew {D: nothing about queers} but I always knew there was something wrong with J-D.
Interviewer:  Not really straight #1 he's not gay. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  and {NS} he {NS}
Interviewer:  Every time you know living in a place as big as this everyone's home the phone'll ring and you know the person just hangs up and I don't know if it's somebody {X} or what but every time that happens when my husband called me there {X} #1 They hang up. #
847:  #2 And #
Interviewer:  huh
847:  that's happened to me a thousand times
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And I was telling you about J-D my my sister my aunt got sick and my sister was gonna was uh was uh was going to school at in Austin at uh at that time Tillotson.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And uh she came out and they let her do her practice teaching they used that as her practice #1 teaching #
Interviewer:  #2 oh uh-huh #
847:  so while my aunt was in the hospital uh my sister sent me to the store with a note and her handwriting was legible but J-D made a comment like oh my god I thought all schoolteachers had pretty handwriting.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And of course I had to go back and tell her what he said #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # #1 oh ouch. #
847:  #2 {X} #
Interviewer:  She had a few choice words for him.
847:  Yeah she wrote it back in a note. #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  It was too hard for me to tell it #1 when so. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 That's # funny. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 And and # all the time that she was out there it was like she had a running feud with J-D I never will forget J-D. She probably won't either.
Interviewer:  They just did not hit it off huh?
847:  No they just didn't hit it off you know uh. First of all my sister was uh usually proper and prompt and all. And you know being out in in O'Donnell my aunt had all of the uh all of the trappings of a small town black schoolteacher
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  getting credit from the white establishment.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  You know she's not even going to say Mr. J-D. #1 And then my sister you know #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  That's funny.
847:  Yeah he you know it was just a real feud between #1 them. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  Well I you know all that time I guess he said you know and his attitude was just young smart black coming in here educated you know she just had.
Interviewer:  No respect.
847:  He had #1 no respect for #
Interviewer:  #2 No respect. #
847:  her at all.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 That is funny. #
847:  #2 {X} # you know but uh.
Interviewer:  Well tell me about um Dallas and um how old were you when you moved to Dallas I mean you you came back here as soon as your mother?
847:  Well uh I guess at infancy I was in Dallas you know back between Dallas and with my grandmother. And then I started living with my aunt. I started school with her.
Interviewer:  In O'Donnell?
847:  Yeah she didn't have and she was the first black teacher in O'Donnell.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  Uh when she started teaching there uh it was in an old church that had no floor or anything they had to put the desks on the ground. And they built the little red brick building you know #1 large brick. #
Interviewer:  #2 She didn't she didn't # teach in the regular school?
847:  No. #1 uh-uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  Well you see the reason why they needed a a a black schoolteacher in O'Donnell was because uh a lot of blacks migrated into O'Donnell around about cotton picking time. And there were a lotta large farms out there because in that area around Lubbock and all those counties out there uh was the largest cotton producing area in the country at that time.
Interviewer:  I see
847:  And uh there were large farms and they had a lotta blacks that worked on the farms and they uh recognized the fact that they needed a black school. So uh I don't know this was back in the forties must've been forty three forty four somewhere around in there maybe forty five that uh she uh was teaching was serving in a little town called Givens, Texas and somehow or another she got word about this job in O'Donnell and that's where she went. And
Interviewer:  Probably had never seen this place or she had.
847:  She hadn't.
Interviewer:  Wow. {X}
847:  #1 Well #
Interviewer:  #2 {D: Horrible.} #
847:  she was making I believe at the time she started fifteen dollars a week. uh something like.
Interviewer:  Was that better than before? #1 What was she #
847:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  making before?
847:  Well I think uh when she was out serving in Givens, Texas she was making she was making less than that.
Interviewer:  #1 I would #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  think they'd have to pay me a lot of money whole lot more to go to O'Donnell to do anything. {NW}
847:  Well the one good thing it did in O'Donnell was that uh they provided her with lodging.
Interviewer:  Okay. #1 That's for #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  certain.
847:  And that the house that we uh stayed in was like a compound operation there. Uh it was in the back of this white family's house that faced the street and we were back around like a compound they and they rented that compound out to blacks.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  And it was just uh a row of old stucco buildings. Uh run one one room little things with it reminds me of my efficiency apartment that I had. uh Not much larger than this room here.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  And there was an outdoors toilet. And that was a real trip in the wintertime #1 you know how the wind blows out there. #
Interviewer:  #2 I'm sure in O'Donnell. #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW} Had to need to go real bad.
847:  Yeah you know when you have to go in a #1 sandstorm that's real good. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  Yeah it was you talking about happy days.
Interviewer:  #1 oh #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {D: Bad old days.} #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  But uh somehow or another we had fun while I was out there and then they they did this real big thing. uh The church got too small and uh with this being in the late forties uh the uh military had no use for all these barracks that they had housed the soldiers in.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And somewhere out in that area must've been in Stanton, Texas or somewhere that uh they had some barracks up for sale. So they had two of the old barracks buildings hauled to O'Donnell. And they bought a patch of land out near a field and that's where they set the buildings and joined them together and made a school and a living quarters. There were we had a library two restrooms indoors #1 too. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah # wow.
847:  That was like #1 really moving up #
Interviewer:  #2 luxury. #
847:  #1 you know. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  uh She stayed uh remained as the uh only teacher uh after that for around I guess let's see it was nineteen fifty uh it was in fifty one that they hired no it was in fifty they hired another teacher. So they ended up with two black teachers and my aunt was the principal of a two teacher #1 school. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 you know {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW} Funny to {D: think about} anyway.
847:  Yeah so I stayed in O'Donnell with her until uh uh like I mentioned my sister came out when she was sick she was a diabetic. She had one leg had a foot amputated.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Gangrene # had set up from wearing a shoe that was too small. Not too small it developed a blister on her toe. uh and uh From the effects of that it created uh you know the deterioration that comes with uh uh diabetics when they have something like that happen to 'em. And they amputated the foot then they had to amputate the leg below the knee and for some reason when you have amputations like that diabetics it affects the other limb. And uh within the next year she had to have the other leg amputated below the knee.
Interviewer:  #1 That bad? #
847:  #2 And # when I was twelve I had just turned twelve.
Interviewer:  And how old was your sister?
847:  Uh my sister must've been I was twelve mm no I mighta been ten or eleven. So that means that she must've been twenty.
Interviewer:  Oh she was that much older than you.
847:  mm-hmm Yeah. That's right because my sister got married when she was seventeen. I remember that that was a real {D: fast one} she finished high school at fif- she started college at fifteen. {NS} And
Interviewer:  Must be awful smart.
847:  Yeah she's brilliant. {X} um Has almost a full academic uh
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  but she hadn't finished college. she fell in love with the Pullman porter on a train. You see like when she would leave Dallas going to Austin on the train
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh
Interviewer:  It was the same guy every time huh?
847:  Yeah and he had just gotten outta service
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  back then when she started college. So I guess she must've started college in forty after forty five forty six forty seven somewhere around there.
Interviewer:  There weren't many women period going to college then.
847:  No there wasn't uh and she's a very good looking girl too long pretty black hair straight {NS} uh what black people call high yellow.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 Yeah you know and uh #
Interviewer:  #2 I've heard of that right. #
847:  uh
Interviewer:  Now wait let me ask you about high yellow is that does that mean skin color too or is it just the hair or what is #1 it? #
847:  #2 No # high yellow's skin color.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And uh you and uh that's because perhaps uh uh the brown pigmentation mixed with uh the uh uh white pigmentation you come up with a yellowish glow to the skin. uh And she had that yellowish brown
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 between # white color you #1 know. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm #
847:  #1 And uh #
Interviewer:  #2 That's really pretty. #
847:  Yeah. My uh great grandmother on my my grandfather's mother was a Cherokee Indian. And uh color came out in her and my grandfather was he was dark skinned. It looked like an Indian had straight hair high cheekbones
Interviewer:  #1 hmm #
847:  #2 and # his uh he was a reddish brown color.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah he was a good looking old man. And uh he and my mother didn't talk about {X} something I guess thought it too.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # uh we uh uh you know so that's she was good looking you know like I could imagine what would happen uh Mama'd put her on the train she'd go to Austin. And that was the route that this fella was working. Dallas to Austin San Antonio to Houston whatever way that train was going. And by seeing her coming home for Thanksgiving Christmas, and Easter holidays and summer things like that I just imagine they struck up a pretty good relationship you know my mother hated the fella. And uh
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  my uh my sister's excuse was that she didn't like my stepfather. uh And she said she didn't like him cuz uh he was so ignorant and really my stepfather was an ignorant man. But he was a good man and that's what happens when you start educating the kids in the family they start looking around at who's ignorant in the family.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  {NS} And uh she just could not understand why my mother had such a big ignorant man for a husband. #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 So she # just had to get out.
847:  #1 She had to get away from you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah yeah. #
847:  Uh and and he was real crude {D: but bless} he was a very good man you know like he'd sit around and tell tales about uh the boogeyman and the ghost and and she just hated that.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  and she said {D: you'll ruin the little rebels}. and he says #1 well #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Tell me about the boogeyman cuz that's a question on here what the boogeyman is
847:  Well
Interviewer:  Who's the boogeyman?
847:  well let me tell you #1 what I I it #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  I always knew that we were supposed to be afraid for the boogeyman.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And it took me getting grown before I recognized what they were talking about. uh The boogeyman must've been a fella that they created to look something like uh the blob. And the blob then have you have you seen the blob the comic books?
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 Yeah #
847:  #2 You know # he comes out and he's just really mad for nothing.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  And the boogeyman came from boogers. Boogers are the things that happen from the secretion of uh mucus in the nose #1 and you get #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. #
847:  a booger up there. So then you know they scared the hell out of kids well and you know {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 The # #1 boogeyman was actually #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  he was actually the booger man #1 you know. {C laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # That is pretty gross.
847:  #1 Real gross could you imagine though #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  a massive what we would #1 call #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. #
847:  #1 muc- #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  you know like what I just call mucus. And it's not mucus we call it snot.
Interviewer:  Right that's what we call it.
847:  Yeah you know here's the the snot man #1 {D: coming at you}. #
Interviewer:  #2 Right. #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 A big one. # {NW}
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 That's pretty funny. #
847:  But she could not stand you know like my my sister just didn't like my stepfather.
Interviewer:  I see.
847:  But I loved him and he you know he
Interviewer:  Did she get alright? After after her legs were amputated did she get all #1 be alright? #
847:  #2 No no # cuz my aunt uh
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 It was my # aunt woulda had #1 {D: palpitations} #
Interviewer:  #2 oh okay okay #
847:  uh My mother told her that I couldn't stay with her anymore and I was eleven then. And I guess a week after that she had a stroke and died.
Interviewer:  My goodness ooh.
847:  And I think it must of been pressure she was hype- hypertensive in the first place said hype- everybody in the family has hypertension including myself.
Interviewer:  mm #1 {X} #
847:  #2 She # could not figure out and I I realized this after many years the sudden illness that came up because she was up walking in her walker. She had gotten an artificial leg so {X} was right down the street and every time I pass by it I think about her.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  uh And she was a you know had a really a lot of stamina and she was gonna walk again one day.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And it was just the fact that if I couldn't go back with her she had nobody to go with her.
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  And uh she hadn't uh I had been with her oh over six seven years.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And it was uh well it was a traumatic experience for her to think that her legs were gone but I was her legs I was her everything. uh I moved in when I was nine years old eight nine ten. I was cooking washing cleaning uh taking care of business like paying bills writing checks. uh You know so it was like we had a real relationship #1 you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  And uh
Interviewer:  Well were you here in Dallas this is when when your mother said you know?
847:  No I I was in Houston with my aunt uh because we have relatives in Houston.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And uh {X} Houston and that's where we were staying for the summer.` We'd always like we would either go to Mexico uh down to Calvert to Houston or summers you know we just traveled around you know like it was a big experience for me being with her. And we were in Houston during that time and my mother came out to Houston on a train and it got it was you know it into a big hassle about me. You know my mother says you know well that's my son and you're just taking him away from me you know and she said uh I'm sorry you don't have any children that you can stay with you now. And it was just I mean it was a week after that uh oh she just said well you know I I'm gonna go back to school I'm gonna make a living and #1 you know big hassle. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  uh #1 That's #
Interviewer:  #2 That #
847:  something in the family we don't ever talk about. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah # right. #1 how did you #
847:  #2 uh #
Interviewer:  feel at that time? Or did you know that that was all going on?
847:  Well I didn't like it.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know. And I think what it was my mother felt like I had started not respecting her. uh You know it was a jealousy thing I #1 think #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  between my mother and my aunt about me and uh it was just one of those #1 tragic things that can happen to families you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 Were you the # last kid were you the baby?
847:  Uh no. {NS} uh My brother let me see Charles is must be six years younger than I so I was the baby for six years so to speak.
Interviewer:  uh-huh yeah.
847:  And that creates a problem too.
Interviewer:  Yeah I'm sure.
847:  Yeah it really does create a problem. uh Like a lotta people say the middle child is usually uh #1 gets slighted. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  But in my case I ended up with a lot of attention by my aunt who had no children
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  and from my grandmother since I was her baby grandchild and she didn't expect to have any more grandchildren uh and then along came my brother.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 You know after those six years. #
Interviewer:  Afterthought.
847:  Yeah. So I really didn't care about whether I stayed with my mother or not.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know. uh
Interviewer:  You would get mom to {X} huh?
847:  Yeah I was living like a little king.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 You know. #
Interviewer:  You were probably a real brat. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Yeah you know I was a # I was a turbulent lord Fauntleroy.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know in O'Donnell everybody recognized me in the town. You know that's the you know that's the schoolteacher's nephew.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And uh I could go anywhere in white O'Donnell that I wanted to and I got treated real nice.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know uh and you know you had to there was a distinction that was made between me and other black kids in town and I r- #1 I kind of yeah you know I enjoyed #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah you had to enjoy it. #
847:  that you know. In fact when I look back on it you know that was some of my happiest days.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh well did you come to Dallas then when you were what eleven?
847:  Yeah I was eleven I was I remember very distinctly I had just uh I had just turned twelve as a matter of fact my birthday's in July. And this happened in August cuz I remember we were preparing to go back to school in O'Donnell.
Interviewer:  mm mm-hmm
847:  And I started grade school here I was in eighth grade they didn't have any junior highs then.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm yeah
847:  So I started over at uh the {X} grade school in Dallas uh in the eighth grade I had gone to school in Dallas previously but it hadn't been for any length of time. #1 You know so #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  it'd be six months here and I'd leave and go back to O'Donnell cuz I just could not take Dallas. Uh you know and it there was a big there was a big difference in going to the city school and then going to a school where my aunt taught me.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 Yeah # when she was the only teacher.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And that was a real trick she taught eight classes eight grades every day. Grades one through eight.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Well the good thing about that for for the kids was this. Is that if you were in the second grade you knew what was going on in the third grade cuz we were all in the same room.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And if you were sharp enough in the fifth grade you could read what the eighth graders were doing.
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 So when I # came here and I was in eighth grade I was much farther advanced than the kids in Dallas because I had been exposed to the environment ever since I started school. #1 I w- #
Interviewer:  #2 isn't that # interesting.
847:  #1 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  #2 You would # think it would be the other way around cuz O'Donnell doesn't have any background with anything going to a one room school and everything.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Other way around.
847:  You know uh they uh would I was looking at getting one of the {X} they gonna do all of the thirty six plays by Shakespeare you know in the next six years. Course they gonna use British actors. But I was reading Shakespeare when I was in fifth grade and it was because our literature books that the eighth graders were using had Shakespeare in it so I was reading Shakespeare you know when I was uh
Interviewer:  {X} #1 {X} #
847:  #2 nine. #
Interviewer:  {X} Shakespeare.
847:  You know and it was #1 just #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  and when I came here and uh you know and they introduced these literature books in in the eighth or ninth grade and I said well I've already read these books. They said what do you mean you've read these books you know you didn't even have any books. {C: static}
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And I didn't ever explain to them why I'd had the books.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh #1 So #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 but I was exposed #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {X}
847:  I was exposed to a lot of things that way particularly uh in in getting an education I think sometimes and I look back on my life and having to take care of my aunt at eight and nine years old that uh perhaps I missed a lot too. {X} Well you grow up too quick.
Interviewer:  Oh #1 yeah. #
847:  #2 uh # Like like dancing was always stupid to me.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  You know I just couldn't figure out why people would go through the physical motions that they went through just because they heard some music. And right now I I'm not a very good dancer. uh most of my friends don't know me as a person who has too much humor. Even though there you know I have a lot of humor but my humor they don't really appreciate because I don't like stupid things.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  uh My humor is if I can catch you in something uh philosophical joke
Interviewer:  #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 and you # you understand what I'm talking about now either it might be something that's totally comical to me and nobody sees any humor.
Interviewer:  Oh I see it's almost like you never got to be a kid.
847:  That's right you know like I finished high school when I was sixteen.
Interviewer:  Tell me about {X}.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Thank you.
847:  I finished when I was sixteen and I just couldn't figure out anything I wanted to do so I joined the army. uh total lie. So about the time I was nineteen I had been halfway around the world and back and I was speaking portions of four different languages
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  you know and it was just something that uh
Interviewer:  What languages?
847:  French German Spanish and English sometimes.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Sometimes English. #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Sometimes # English.
847:  Yeah but you know I uh I you know the experience has been good it's just the fact that I said you seem to miss something.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah #
847:  #2 Like # uh you see how big I am now at sixteen I was almost I was as tall as I am now uh but I didn't have any weight on me.
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 and I # always think back that if I had finished school high school like other kids at seventeen and eighteen there's a big difference between the development of the body at fifteen and sixteen #1 than #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  there is at seventeen and eighteen. Consequently I never realized the heroics that I could've could've performed in athletics because I was out of school by the time that uh
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  my growth had started. #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 You couldn't # play football or whatever probably big as you are.
847:  Yeah you know and uh it was just you know I always seemed like a step ahead but being a step ahead like that doesn't it hurts you in a sense of speaking you because you really miss something.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # {D: about another thing} {NS} said the same thing she grew up during the Depression and they just didn't have any money and she was raised by her grandmother and they didn't have any {X} but she had that she learned how to cook and and she made all the clothes and all the stuff you know from age probably about {X}.
847:  Well like I've been cooking ever since I was eight. And I remember making one of the best lemon custard pies you know it's not a custard Eagle Brand milk.
Interviewer:  Oh I love that.
847:  #1 That was the first #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 that was the first pie I ever made #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # Yeah.
847:  was a #1 lemon. #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # lemon with {X}
847:  Yeah and uh #1 graham. #
Interviewer:  #2 graham # cracker crust.
847:  The graham cracker crust.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And uh there was always the gingerbread cakes. #1 Ever made gingerbread cake? #
Interviewer:  #2 I don't know if I've ever # made that.
847:  Well uh I've forgotten how to make a gingerbread cake now but they were really really good.
Interviewer:  Gingerbread lemon pie is my favorite thing in the whole world.
847:  And I was going to tell you we we used to make I used to make the lemon pies and she being a diabetic was not supposed to eat 'em.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Well she'd suddenly eat a half a pie
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 and # double up on her insulin you know.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # {D: If it wasn't} she hadn't gotten an insulin shot.
Interviewer:  #1 Right probably. #
847:  #2 You know. #
Interviewer:  That's funny. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Now we #
Interviewer:  They're worth it though they really are worth #1 it. #
847:  #2 Yeah. # Every now and then I'll have a taste for one you know uh and then when they what we call hoe cakes. #1 Now hoe cakes #
Interviewer:  #2 I don't know about # hoe cakes.
847:  a hoe cake is nothing but a great big biscuit {NS} fried in a pan on top of the stove.
Interviewer:  Is it is it regular flour or cornmeal or?
847:  Flour. It's a flour dough.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  And uh you use a little baking powder water no egg anything like that.
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah that's you know and it if a thing with you know you use a big black skillet and it just would mushroom out and you'd flip it over. And I and I you know I think the reason why they call it a hoe cake because it was it was like in comparison and they were talking about like a whore. In comparison to a biscuit like that to a cake and that's it was like comparing a bad lady
Interviewer:  I guess.
847:  a bad woman to a lady you know.
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  and it took me a you know I #1 I #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  Never knew why we were saying these things you know.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 no I # never heard that {X}
847:  #1 Yeah right. #
Interviewer:  #2 I # knew it as a hoe cake but I didn't {NW}
847:  Yeah well that's
Interviewer:  That's very interesting I didn't even know what one was.
847:  Yeah you know it's a cake really you know that it mushrooms #1 up #
Interviewer:  #2 as # #1 opposed to #
847:  #2 you know #
Interviewer:  #1 cake. #
847:  #2 this thing. # Yeah. #1 It's not the lady #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 little angel food. #
Interviewer:  #2 Not your proper # #1 it's not your proper cake. #
847:  #2 {NW} # No.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 Which # you know we're talking about uh language things here too. It was just a few years ago that I figured out what my grandfather was talking about when he said kiver.
Interviewer:  What was that?
847:  He was talking about cover.
Interviewer:  Oh well.
847:  He would he would always say bring me the kiver. and the kiver meant to me a blanket or a quilt.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  But I never related kiver being cover.
Interviewer:  That's interesting never thought they were the same word. #1 huh #
847:  #2 I didn't # think they were the same words.
Interviewer:  #1 very interesting #
847:  #2 uh # And I guess it was after I talked to you that I started figuring out what he meant by kiver.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  And he was talking about the cover.
Interviewer:  #1 Very #
847:  #2 And # I hear people now you know somebody'll say kiver me up.
Interviewer:  uh-huh uh-huh
847:  That means cover me up.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 You know but # I didn't know what he was talking about. I just knew he wanted the blanket or the quilt on him.
Interviewer:  {X} That's very interesting. I love stuff like that.
847:  And now that was that was one of his favorite words and fetch. I always would get it but I would figure that fetch mean give me this and I you know I I was an adult before I figured out that fetch I just wasn't thinking about what fetch meant to him.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  You know. um It means to hand back to me or give back to me.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  But fetch really means for you to go get it.
Interviewer:  Go get it yeah.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. # That's funny.
847:  #1 You know. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 It reminds me of # my next door neighbor. Before she had two kids she had this enormous old English sheep dog and they taught the dog to fetch they'd throw the ball and say fetch run and get the ball but there was this other kid little daughter you know just a kid that's old enough to crawl. they got her to fetch they threw a ball to #1 fetch. #
847:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
Interviewer:  {X} {NW}
847:  {NW} Poor kid probably ended up with a complex one #1 probably #
Interviewer:  #2 day. #
847:  So you know.
Interviewer:  {D: the dog}.
847:  So your mother used to tell you the fetch {NS} #1 dog story. {C: laughing} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # Let's see what was I gonna ask you next? um Okay well you lived in O'Donnell. You live in Did you did you did you {X} the whole time or?
847:  Well
Interviewer:  You already said that.
847:  when they #1 put the barracks together #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  uh that ended up being a two bedroom. It was it was a one {X} when I say this it was one of the larger portions of the barracks that they'd turned into a bedroom and a kitchen with a little dinette in it. And the way they did that was they built a {D: banister} between you know it was just a partition. A half a wall partition. Go across cut a little door in it there's the kitchen and the bedroom that's the living quarters there you know.
Interviewer:  I see uh-huh.
847:  uh We we had a large bed which was a full bed and I slept on a cot more or less like a foot of the full bed that was across from the full bed near the door.
Interviewer:  uh
847:  Thing that divided the full bed and the cot was the door.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  uh There were a couple of large chairs like uh lounge chairs. um There was cabinets built in the kitchen you know the refrigerator. uh I'm trying to think we had not that wasn't a refrigerator it was an icebox.
Interviewer:  Oh it was really with ice.
847:  Yeah ours was a real ice box.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  And I remember having to wrap the ice up in newspaper to keep you know people thought back then that I guess it did it kept the ice from melting so quickly it was like insulation.
Interviewer:  uh-huh #1 Right. #
847:  #2 uh # Then we finally got a refrigerator. uh There was a table in there. And the bathroom and the shower actually it was the restroom with a shower it was the girls' restroom that like if you you know were facing the right way you know like it was facing south and uh would go through the west side of the bathroom. And on the east side of the bathrooms and to the uh school uh #1 in the classroom. #
Interviewer:  #2 uh # Yeah I see.
847:  You know so uh uh we used the uh girls' restroom had had a shower in it and that was connected to the living quarters.
Interviewer:  uh-huh I see.
847:  And the boys' restroom was over on the north side of the building
Interviewer:  mm
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm So if there was school out you had to not get confused and go in the wrong one right?
847:  I always knew that if I what was going on when I went in there.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} uh um
847:  {NS} Yeah. I think a couple times I did by accident go in and it created such #1 disturbances. #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  And my aunt put a latch lock on the inside of the door. {C: laughing}
Interviewer:  #1 Funny. #
847:  #2 {NW} # {NW} #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Well I # tell me this when you were in Dallas you lived in Dallas like part of that time like for six months at a time #1 right? #
847:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  What kind of housing was it like here in Dallas? {X}
847:  mm-hmm Looks like it's getting pretty low.
Interviewer:  Yeah. uh I think it will click once it goes off. {X}
847:  Well now the first house that I remember living in in Dallas was a duplex.
Interviewer:  Let me ask you now would you draw me a floor plan of it?
847:  Yeah. {NS}
Interviewer:  Like that where's the list of the things that you said before that they sent me? {X} {NS} And I can't remember if I had to do this before I guess I didn't.
847:  No you didn't I I woulda remembered that. And I was {D: duplex me}. {D: You must like to do this.} Now we shared the same kitchen though.
Interviewer:  mm The family in the other part of the duplex and y'all?
847:  Yeah well actually uh the man who owned the house the the owner lived there too. And he lived on the other side.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm I see.
847:  And he had one kitchen built in there. Yeah looks about right. We even stayed in a shotgun house too.
Interviewer:  Shotgun house #1 is a #
847:  #2 That's a # straight through thing. You know you have to walk through the whole house to get to the kitchen.
Interviewer:  Like oh all the rooms just line up straight?
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 Where was that #
847:  #2 because #
Interviewer:  where was the shotgun #1 house? #
847:  #2 It was # in Dallas.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  Now let me see.
Interviewer:  This is always a real talent trying to get people to people to do this cuz I get some people who are just they say no. {NW}
847:  Well I guess you have to think about. This will be a door using this as doors.
Interviewer:  mm-kay
847:  And I guess {C: static} yeah that'll do. {C: static} mm-hmm {C: static} I'll call this {C: static} open space so you can see now there was oh and there was a closet here {D: so I'll make a note}. Yeah that's right.
Interviewer:  Would you when you get through that label stuff for me okay?
847:  Okay.
Interviewer:  So that this kinda thing is in {X} Yeah things like that are really {NS} valuable.
847:  And you know what? There was another family living over here yeah he used one bedroom. There was always the biggest hassle about this. Sure was.
Interviewer:  About the bedroom?
847:  No there was this lady that lived over on this side whose name was {D: Ida May}. I remember her name.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  She had a son named Frederick. Frederick was older than we were and he always picked on us.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh Like to use the bathroom or the kitchen there was always a hassle going on with Frederick.
Interviewer:  oh uh-huh
847:  Remember old Frederick I can't forget #1 him. #
Interviewer:  #2 You # had to fight the sandstorm or Frederick #1 to go to the #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  bathroom.
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} Sounds like a hard childhood to me. {NW} Sound like it's always running out there hmm.
847:  hmm
Interviewer:  Well it looks wet but well it looks like it might be covered {D: with little snowflakes}. {X} {X} Oh hey there's more left. It's already {X}
847:  It is?
Interviewer:  Yeah they come on {D: cars and stuff}. {X} huh Well guess we're gonna {X}.
847:  {X}
Interviewer:  Okay now tell me.
847:  There. {NS} We lived on this side. We went in through here.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And there was a hall hallways have huge living rooms. Like say there was a closet at the front room I don't all those old houses have closets at the front and they were sorta like back to back.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  And there were two bedrooms on this side and two bedrooms on that side
Interviewer:  #1 mm-hmm #
847:  #2 Well # the lady that lived in this bedroom was Frederick's {D: fella}.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  Okay. And the man who owned the house lived over here.
Interviewer:  hmm
847:  And that was the problem with Frederick is it because we had two bedrooms and he only had one with his mother.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Right.
847:  Yeah so my brother and I Max slept
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  in this room. And my mother and my stepfather slept here. Uh as you can see the bathroom was closer to us than it was over here to Frederick's room.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  You know like they had to come around through the kitchen this was just like a little dinette up here and it was just real convenient
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  you know to come back around through #1 here #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  to the bathroom. And there was always some sort of a hassle I think we used to harass him.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  You know like uh knock on the wall when we knew he was in the bathroom.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah.
847:  And he
Interviewer:  Poor Frederick.
847:  he would wait on us.
Interviewer:  Frederick may not be #1 the bad guy in all this. #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He was just the biggest he was the oldest like you know like uh and I know he probably hated us. {NW}
Interviewer:  He probably did.
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  But now let me draw this thing of the shotgun house.
Interviewer:  Right right.
847:  I thought I thought the shotgun house now then there was another duplex we lived in three different duplexes and all the other duplexes were made exactly alike. Now uh except for the others were were totally divided and you had a hallway down each side of the like that would be a hallway. A hall there and all your other things would be living room, bedroom, kitchen bathroom bedroom #1 you know. #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh # #1 uh-huh #
847:  #2 And those # screened in back porch and all.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  But now the shotgun house #1 was #
Interviewer:  #2 I bet # things were kinda crowded at mealtime with two families in there trying to sit down at the same time.
847:  It was always a hassle. And there was always a problem with somebody stealing somebody's food.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah oh yeah.
847:  Now we kept a lotta the food {D: Mom always uh} {D: put out} and we were always missing food. My mother didn't care but I always cared cuz it seemed like Frederick was getting my oranges or apples or something or either when his mother was fixing his lunch she would put something of ours in his lunch. Yeah it created big problems.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  #1 Big problems. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm # Yeah.
847:  And if you know like he had a sister too I don't remember where his sister slept. She didn't stay there all the time but when she did she just slept with Frederick and they had two beds in his room uh in in their room she slept with their mother and Frederick slept in the other bed.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  At night she slept on the on the couch in the living room cuz I know when my sister came home she would either sleep in the living room either move us out of the bedroom and we had to sleep in the living room.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm
847:  {X}
Interviewer:  Oh I see why Frederick may have had some problems.
847:  Yeah yeah you know a lotta problems.
Interviewer:  Do you ever wonder what became of people like that?
847:  Yeah uh let's see uh last I heard of Frederick he was uh oh he he had lost his mind I believe.
Interviewer:  Oh really?
847:  {D: No.}
Interviewer:  That is interesting.
847:  Well you know when I heard that I said you know Frederick was always crazy.
Interviewer:  Yeah. #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW} You know I was I was home Wichita Falls is my hometown. I was home about a week ago. My father had a heart attack and he's doing okay now but I was at the hospital and uh there was this bozo football player that I went to high school with I didn't even {X} just your typical jock. You know and he played the part he was a big guy. He went around acting mean and everybody liked him but you know he was just kind of a bozo. Well he was at the hospital and uh I stopped to talk to him and I found out that the reason he was at the hospital is cuz he was making rounds. He was a doctor.
847:  He's a doctor?
Interviewer:  Yeah. And I just went you're a doctor?
847:  Well Frederick's sister's a nurse. #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Good the # sister at least didn't lose her mind you know.
847:  uh I've seen some real work cases come out of houses like that whereas it that the girls take on say there's a girl in the house with two or three brothers. She take on the masculine tendencies of the brothers.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  You know and uh boys who slept with their sisters and their sisters were older they end up taking up female tendencies you know there were a lotta things that went on there you know like uh I spent an awful lotta time in the middle of them. And I wonder if that mighta been an influence of being around my aunt all the time. uh I think all of us have some traits in us that
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  #1 you know that uh #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # #1 {X} #
847:  #2 it could # go either way.
Interviewer:  Yeah it depends on upbringing and stuff.
847:  {X} back here
Interviewer:  You saw the tape going.
847:  Now now if it I think consistently looked {X}
Interviewer:  {X} Now it sounds better {X} I don't wanna take up more that
847:  #1 half but #
Interviewer:  #2 Well I got time cuz my #
847:  secretary's not here so uh you know.
Interviewer:  Well good I'll stay the rest of the day then just to use up all my tapes. {D: It's not your basic complicated now is it?}
847:  Oh no.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 it didn't take a # genius to figure this out.
Interviewer:  Really. {NW}
847:  Can't call this a back door. It's on the side of the house. It went into the kitchen. {NS} Now uh {X}
Interviewer:  I can't read upside down.
847:  Sorry.
Interviewer:  {NS} I know people who can but I'm not one of #1 'em. #
847:  #2 This is a # bedroom.
Interviewer:  uh
847:  It was the landlord's bedroom.
Interviewer:  Oh.
847:  His name was Mr. Williams.
Interviewer:  Oh okay. {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Get these details #1 right. #
847:  #2 He # yeah.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  The bathroom was back here. This was the kitchen. There was a side door that goes into the kitchen and that was the door that Mr. Williams used to go #1 into #
Interviewer:  #2 uh #
847:  his bedroom.
Interviewer:  huh
847:  uh This is the bedroom that was for my brother and I. uh This was a combination bedroom living room to the front door.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  You know. {X}
Interviewer:  Your mother and stepfather were there?
847:  mm-hmm
Interviewer:  Well what'd your sister do when she came home there? Or did she live there at that time or not?
847:  Oh yeah I know what we did. Well when she came home we set up {NS} a rollaway bed in here
Interviewer:  mm
847:  and we'd put the we would let the rollaway bed down.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm
847:  That's what happened when she came home.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  uh And I think that was part of the problem of her not wanting to come back home.
Interviewer:  Yeah. Yeah I can understand that.
847:  You know the older she got you know like then sixteen going on seventeen years old had to sleep in a room with two little brothers.
Interviewer:  That's
847:  #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 bad # news.
847:  and completely no privacy at all.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh
Interviewer:  This is #1 bad news #
847:  #2 Then having # to share the bathroom {D: with an old hick bald head uh} landlord.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 probably eyeballing her all the # #1 and #
Interviewer:  #2 Probably. # #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  I'd stay away from home as much as possible too I think.
847:  So that was that was a real trick there.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh So when my younger brother was born I remember we moved. We stayed there for a while uh and he slept in one of these bedrooms. But then it was all it was convenient because then there wasn't uh often that my sister and I were there all the time so it was my oldest brother and my youngest brother who were there all the time and when when I say my oldest brother he's two years older than I am.
Interviewer:  mm
847:  And that would make him eight years older uh than my younger brother my youngest brother at least. So they don't get along now.
Interviewer:  Oh dear.
847:  And I often wondered why they didn't get along. Maybe it was because one or the other displeased the other one for so long by being together all the time.
Interviewer:  Yeah maybe so.
847:  You know and they developed resentments for each other that I didn't develop cuz I wasn't around all the #1 time. #
Interviewer:  #2 uh-huh # uh-huh Well how was it you went to live with your aunt instead of your older brother? {X}
847:  uh Well I remember when we first started uh school.
Interviewer:  Was this here in Dallas?
847:  No we started out with my aunt in O'Donnell.
Interviewer:  Okay.
847:  uh Max's birthday is in December December twenty fifth.
Interviewer:  Oh wow huh he had to get two sets of presents right?
847:  No.
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  That creates problems too.
Interviewer:  Yes. I have a friend whose birthday is birthday is the twenty first and she has the same problem.
847:  And like it's it seemed that Max was always into something mischievous and I wasn't. My mother said that my aunt was making a difference in the two of us. {NS} And that created a problem so she said send my boy home. Max would tell a lie like you know like you know he made it really sound like it was a big difference being me.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  But then he was my grandfather's favorite. Reason being he was the first male born into my mother's side of the family in forty some odd years.
Interviewer:  Oh boy. Wow.
847:  So
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  that made him real special to my grandfather.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  His first grandson.
Interviewer:  uh-huh
847:  Well there was when the distinction started being made it started with my grandfather and my grandmother. My grandfather smothered my oldest brother with all the love because he was the first grandboy.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm
847:  And my grandmother catered to me because she knew my grandfather really had didn't care that much about me.
Interviewer:  Yeah right somebody's gotta love the kid.
847:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
847:  #2 {NW} # So you know it always was a like little problems going on and just since talking about it I can real- I recognize and realize a lotta things that happen now with kids and why it happened with 'em
Interviewer:  mm-hmm
847:  and uh when my mother sent my brother back when my aunt brought my brother back to Dallas um that's when a lot of distinctions started being made between who's doing what and why.
Interviewer:  mm-hmm mm-hmm
847:  And my brother always wanted to be with us but since he wasn't with us that meant that he was with my mother and my stepfather and he didn't like my stepfather either you know maybe maybe I liked him cuz I wasn't around all the time.
Interviewer:  Yeah maybe so.
847:  Yeah you know #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 sounds like he # {X}
847:  Yeah I think I did.
Interviewer:  Well how did you all get along then when you moved back to Dallas? When you were what twelve?
847:  Oh we fought all the time.
Interviewer:  Oh really? You were kind of at that age too yeah.
847:  Yeah. Just the right age to start disliking each other.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah. #
847:  #2 And # not being around each other wasn't enough either. And it's just been within the last four or five years that my brother and I have gotten to be like brothers.
Interviewer:  Is that right?
847:  #1 You know. #
Interviewer:  #2 That's # really interesting.
847:  #1 uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Is he still in # in Dallas?
847:  He's still in Dallas. But he uh {NS} by him being the oldest you know like two years difference is a big thing with brothers
Interviewer:  Yeah.
847:  uh might not be to people on the streets but it really is. And I I respect him as being my oldest brother I listen to him I don't give him very much advice he gives me all the advice. And I do that with him primarily because he he has some good sound advice to give. But he is always stuck like that uh opportunities came to me a little bit better than came to him. uh And I guess some things did happen you know to me that perhaps didn't happen to him. There were benefits uh but it didn't hurt him you know like uh he he's very independent uh he makes more money than I do now and he really likes that because when I was making more money than he was making it's sorta like a put down #1 to him. #
Interviewer:  #2 mm-hmm # Exactly #1 you know he #
847:  #2 Yeah. #
Interviewer:  still respect it'll bother him.
847:  Yeah you know so he would uh and even refers now to my easy job you know and what I do here and how hard he works and whatever you know but and I said but you're making more money you know and he said well it compensates for it. uh But we that we love each other now I always loved him always felt like kinda resented me some reason or #1 another #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah. #
847:  and I find I I would bend over backwards {X}
Interviewer:  {NS} Yeah
847:  And He'll tell people now you know like we used to not get along two hours together you know like uh Uh it was just Something that I he didn't see eye to eye with me and I didn't see eye to eye with him and we would end up Having you know a big argument about something And it would literally be nothing
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Uh
Interviewer:  Whatever
847:  Whatever yeah as long as And it wouldn't be me I wouldn't create the problem You know It was just the fact that he Somehow I never felt like I thought was smarter than he was
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  So finally I told him one day you know you have a lot of good advice to give me and I'll listen to you And he's finally started imparting with some good advice Uh and The times of my being away from Dallas And growing up Made him much more street wise than me
Interviewer:  Hmm that's interesting
847:  Uh like I don't
Interviewer:  You grew up in this little town
847:  Yeah like uh You know down the street was the pool hall there was a lot of slick things going in the city
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And even now you know like first time I went to San Francisco was Six years ago {NW} And he was cautioning me said don't you be no fool now like You're really talking to a country bumpkin You know and
Interviewer:  Right
847:  Great big city of San Francisco you know
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He says I say what do you mean see you know I {X} You and I really have I still have some country ways about me about I'll leave my Bag Uh my jewelry And you know I might walk outta here and leave it on the desk and people say well you shouldn't do that I said why it's my desk {NS} They said well man you know you'll end up somebody will steal it And I sometimes I have to go back and check my door To make sure that I've locked the doors because I grew up in an environment of not locking doors And I checked you know and taking everybody at their word and I still do
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Uh that when people come to you they're honest And sincere And in my and and they're not rascals or scoundrels
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Uh but And it's taken me a long time To start recognizing that there are a lot of rascals and scoundrels #1 Around #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  #1 And uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  He's had to protect me in a lot of instances you know But uh Just My assuming things about people
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Um I went to high school here but {NS} Man like I said when I finished high school I went immediately into service Right out of service into school and you know like I just lost a lot things about how really Terrible city people can be sometimes
Interviewer:  Mm
847:  And uh You know he looks out for me in those in that respect {NS} like
Interviewer:  In a way it's good in a way it's bad I suppose {X}
847:  Well I think it's good it it's good and bad
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Uh the good part Is that uh I was able to see what the city was To be associated with it And growing up And not being totally engulfed into the Ghetto scene
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Um And then my environment with my aunt was always an environment of education {NW} So then that kept me
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  It kept me afloat and aloof too For things that really go on
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Uh I remember when I was about twenty years old Uh This fellow introduced me to some people said this is {B} I want you to meet a man who's never been to jail
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  That was a big thing to come out of him {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  I will ne- You know that's something it's like it's in an indelible print in my mind
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Uh you know I've been arrested on traffic violations and Um
Interviewer:  No
847:  Being in the wrong place at the wrong time that sort of thing But that was really interesting to me you know I've never been to jail for something real big you know And he said
Interviewer:  Isn't that #1 Interesting #
847:  #2 {X} # {X} #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Couldn't say it # I can tell
847:  Because over in that neighborhood in East Dallas right over by Fair Park
Interviewer:  #1 Is that where you lived #
847:  #2 {D: House ground} # Yup I lived there Grew up on {B}
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  {B} In that area around there And {NS} That you know everybody had to go to jail you know You just haven't grown up until you go into juvenile home and then jail
Interviewer:  Well it's just a matter of time
847:  It's just a matter of time you know like in a
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He was really proud of me his friend's never been to jail #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # That's so funny
847:  {NW} But
Interviewer:  Where did you go to school you said you went to school when you got out of the service
847:  To the University of Maryland
Interviewer:  How come you went there so far away
847:  Uh Had a lot of friends living in Michigan I met people that uh when I was in Detroit {X} Well I when I was in Detroit when I was when I was in service And I was in Germany Uh Most of my friends were from Michigan And as a matter of fact no one really believed that I was from Texas Um
Interviewer:  How come
847:  I didn't have that southern {D: Tracking} About me Um Always talked very quickly You know Um and And I think my speech is more refined I have a southern black
Interviewer:  Yeah that's it
847:  Youngster Going into school you know like Fresh out of high school Going into service Um And Like people in New York kids grow up in New York Um somewhat a little bit Faster than kids that grow up in Waco and Dallas And you know kids in Dallas a little bit faster than the ones in Waco
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know there's that city traffic and And Somehow or another I was Just a little bit Advanced struggling this you know like uh they just didn't want to believe that I was from Texas
Interviewer:  That's interesting
847:  Um {NS} I never really talked With a slow drawl I My my drawl has gotten Worse a whole lot at that And that's primarily because of my association
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Um
Interviewer:  Yeah saying that this will be {X}
847:  Well that's like on the telephone I don't sound very black I sound more like More or less like Uh maybe a white farmer around here {NS}
Interviewer:  Yeah you do to me too #1 Or #
847:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #1 Or a Southerner you know #
847:  #2 You know people # Yeah you know I don't sound like a black southerner
Interviewer:  #1 Uh-uh #
847:  #2 on the phone and # You know and I and I fool a lot of people you know I don't Just not anything intentional {NW} I remember when I was recruiting jobs When I was a job development coordinator And there's this company blue diamond Which uh supplies construction materials Off uh You know uh contractors when I was there And I had this beautiful rapport with the Personnel manager And the uh foreman over there at uh blue diamond but they hadn't ever seen me {NW} I always talked to them on the phone {NW} So when we came up with all this business about affirmative action Well blue diamond happened to have some federal contracts because it's a national company {NS} And I call this fellow {D: with me} I was talking to him {NS} And he said you know I got to have me some blacks over here said I don't have any you know And he said why don't you try and hire me some Well that's the easiest thing for me to do because that's all I was seeing over in south Dallas {NW} And Martin Luther King center which was crossroads then {D: only blacks who came in there} And I did a super job for him so one day I call him and {NW} He said hey Cal I said how you doing he said uh {NS} He said I need me some more people he said but let me tell you what {NW} Don't send me any more of them niggers you know what I'm talking about
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  I said yeah I know what you're #1 Talking about I see #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  Too many of them myself
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  You know I see them every day around here {NW}
Interviewer:  That's great
847:  Finally one day he said when do you want to come over and have coffee with me And I showed up
Interviewer:  Oh that is
847:  And
Interviewer:  So funny what did he do
847:  He just I started laughing I made it easy for him
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  I said you didn't expect me did you
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 He said my God #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 He said you didn't even #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  Curse me out
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  I said no I said you know I said I understood what you were talking about {NW} And I said too much of anything ain't good for you you know {NW} It's just the fact that He needed to break down what was going on there And I have found like in working situations As an example here There is better office relation whereas since you have Black brown and white
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Only thing my office is Totally black {NW} And I probably get less production sometimes than what I would really need to get And less respect out of my all black environment in here
Interviewer:  Why do you think that is I mean why aren't these better at {X}
847:  You keep people more honest number one Uh {NS} You very rarely find Uh black white and brown in an office And all three of them going to be doing something for you as a boss at the same time you can break them up you can create Uh {NS} Not confusion But you can divide You can divide Uh you you have people working Uh I find that white people understand work ethic ethics Better than blacks and browns You know white #1 People #
Interviewer:  #2 Puritan # Puritan
847:  Yeah you know
Interviewer:  Work ethic
847:  Yeah you know they understand that hey you know this is hustle and bustle if you don't make it You ain't going to make it here You know sometimes I find that blacks will use Uh It's all like an inherited thing No matter how hard I work I'm not going to get it any further
Interviewer:  No
847:  You know But then that's a lie nowadays You know you can work hard And if you really work And do your work well and and you exceed And excel And if you excel and can exceed what others are doing {NS} You going to get ahead I don't care who you are {NW} But my people have to learn that it's hard work not short corners that's going to get what where you want to go {NS} Uh and it takes more than doing eight hours a day to get you where you want to go Uh if you go to a job and work eight hours and that's it {NW} You punch in eight and you leave at five you don't spend an extra minute there You don't come to work thirty minutes early not one day you want your coffee breaks right on time {NW} You want your lunch break right on time
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Then you're not going to get ahead on that job It's the fellow that puts in a little bit of extra effort And gets ahead on the job {NW} And White people understand that We haven't understood it En masse Because then the opportunities to move ahead hasn't been there
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  But the opportunities are opening up you know this is what I try to get my people to see
Interviewer:  What do you see with women do you a see a difference in attitude between men and women
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  How so
847:  Uh There seem to have always been some opportunities available for black women And unavailable to black men As an example {NW} The first company that {NS} Started hiring black women en masse and paying them a decent salary in Dallas {NW} Was Texas Instruments And this was right about nineteen uh Sixty You know between fifty-eight and sixty when it's really start Hiring black women And they hired them as assemblers Uh they worked on Various parts of the plant operation And the manufacturing and assembling operations The only jobs that black men could get out there were working in the cafeteria and porter jobs
Interviewer:  Is that right.
847:  And then they always bought T-I's always had a super credit union
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Gathering up all these black women Several hundred of them back then you know Early years All of them driving new cars And here their husbands are on porter jobs {NW} That job broke up more homes than you can really imagine
Interviewer:  That is very interesting
847:  Uh Then as it progressed Uh it was in the {NS} Late sixties Early seventies at southwestern bell Started opening up and hiring minority women There was no place for a man at southwestern bell there were no porter jobs They didn't have any black installers Uh Black line men that sort of thing truck drivers
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Maintenance Uh crews {NW} Only thing they did was work custodial work in the building I remember my mother telling me Oh when you get out of high school I sure hope you can get you a porter job at the gas company {NS} That was a good job
Interviewer:  That was the the ultimate
847:  Yeah To work at the gas company And have a porter's job Well Then {X} TI opened up Um Southwestern bell In the mid sixties late sixties early seventies {NW} Western electric Built a plant here {NW} Uh then the affirmative action Plans for the insurance companies you saw them put in Uh People in the insurance companies with banks started opening up {NW} Uh only job my wife has ever had was Working in the bank Uh she uh Was head teller at one of the major banks downtown
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh That might have just happened in the last couple years they get to have tellers now But then I can remember when I have a lesser job And my wife had a nice little clean job That I noticed a difference in her attitude toward me You know we were very young you know {D: And then there was an attitudal difference} And uh {D: I've always been pretty sharp and I told her what that attitudal difference was} I said now let me tell you something I said now your opportunities seem to have been a little bit better than mine so far as you're getting a cleaner job {NW} I said well that doesn't make you being more than me as my wife and I said if you're making A million dollars a year {NW} You have to respect me as your husband And I think that might be the reason why you you find some black men come up with that {NW} Super macho attitude
Interviewer:  Yeah uh-huh
847:  #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 Overcompensation #
847:  Yeah and it's overcompensation because There's a need or lack of {X} {NS} And
Interviewer:  That's very interesting
847:  Like Today There are very few black men in this town With desk jobs working in a nice clean office environment And there's thousands of black women who are In nice clean office jobs {NW} And a good clean working #1 Environment #
Interviewer:  #2 Why do you think that is #
847:  It's because of the industry in Dallas in particular Uh You have a bank and insurance uh uh Uh Electrical I mean drug electrical components and and computer Taking over software hardware market here
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Now unless Males go in at the top level of these jobs {NW} On a professional highly skilled level Then you don't really get into the capital And But then the opportunities are made and once people get in {NW} Have training programs and that sort of thing that move Women up Um There are I know several girls that work at a telephone company Two or three of them I've gotten that for them That through references uh Working with uh civil rights programs and affirmative action so forth {NW} Opened up a lot of things with southwestern bell I think you remember when the telephone company was sued two years ago Um Nationally they were sued for the Discrimination discriminatory practices such as testing procedures and that sort of thing in the hiring practices of {NW} Minorities and women Well then that started opening things up too But uh as I look at the job market And and what has been available And it just hasn't been a whole lot available Uh so far as for black men to move up Into certain areas of work Um So customers would like to say this created a lot of problems And uh
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  And particularly when {NW} The average Uh black male who is intelligent And i- Is at uh Academic training high institution {NW} Their wives or their women make just as much money as they're making Most of the time Because they usually they'll want to marry Someone with the same aspirations same education level and that sort of thing {NW} And uh They end up making a lot of concessions at home {X} Giving up Male dominance as a means of getting along with a partner who can assist them And sacri- That they sacrifice that just to get along You know Uh Wife is buying the car you'll be paying the house loan {NW} It always felt like maybe it's that You know American thing in me American machoism {NS} Is that the man is supposed to carry the biggest burden Of the responsibility But then this cannot be the case When men They're earning Capacity is about the same
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know what you do is you end up really splitting it {NW} You know so like when I look at the liberal movement {NW} of the White female
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Well hell you know the white woman has always had that sort of freedom and liberty at home because she's had {NW} Responsibilities that her white counterpart Hasn't really ever had
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm that's true #1 {D: You know in Burbia} #
847:  #2 You know #
Interviewer:  {X} Where I live and where I grew up uh there's almost a class difference between the men and the women because the men make three times #1 As much as we #
847:  #2 Ah yeah #
Interviewer:  Could ever make
847:  And they act like it too
Interviewer:  You bet {NW} Oh they love no believe me
847:  You see you cat- But now you got You catch some brother coming home with that attitude
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He's just He might
Interviewer:  {D: He's mighty right}
847:  #1 If if if he's a #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  Cop #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  This is
Interviewer:  {D: Why are we talking about this kind of power}
847:  You know get out of my house #1 And I know #
Interviewer:  #2 Really #
847:  Of white fellows getting kicked out of the house {NS}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Because they've made just Were not taking care of maid's responsibilities in the house
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  You know Uh
Interviewer:  Well that was really {X} To say considerably more equal
847:  Well it it needs it needs to be more equal and I I I'll tell you that uh Uh Men who think that it'll make a great big difference {NW} It doesn't make a big difference If you're with somebody that's lucky they don't look at the money they make or what they're paying for
Interviewer:  Yeah but it's not always that simple
847:  No no it's it's not that simple explaining it to the average man {NW} Just like I was lucky enough to grow up around And be raised by some very strong Not intimidating but not doubled women And I grew up learning how to respect Womanhood And respecting strong women who were independent In order to have them you know I wasn't intimidated by it {NW} And I I'm not intimidated by strong women now Often time I wanted to In in my work and in my the social environment that I'm in I associate with a lot of very strong Intellectual And sharp black women And One of the biggest problems they have is finding a compatible relationship with men
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And black men
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And often times they'll say you know looks like I'm going to find me a white man {NW} Uh
Interviewer:  Tell them that they're ain't any
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  #1 I well #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  Well you're supposed to keep them looking around
Interviewer:  That's right {X}
847:  But as you will notice like that Most of your super stars Uh like entertainers and so Black females You only see them admiring white men And reason being It is kind of hard for them to find a black man on their level
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm that's interesting mm-hmm
847:  You know It's it's real trip You know I could go through just uh You know there's people {X} Who have uh committed suicide uh {B} Um uh {B} Uh
Interviewer:  {X} #1 With a white man #
847:  #2 That's # Yeah Um uh {NS} You know I could just go on and on {D: You know when I can look back} And people you know like black men actors you know {X} That's because it's so difficult to find One of you who want to respect her Instead of you know lifting her up and being a companion you want to tear her down {NS} Um I remember when uh Um
Interviewer:  Gosh that's so interesting you get overcompensation in the black males but with with white males the problem is that uh they're not overcompensating they've just always had this power
847:  Always had the power
Interviewer:  Comes naturally they're so surprised if you want if if their their wife or their girlfriend or whatever wants more
847:  Well I when when Aretha Franklin her first husband Uh {NS} He was one of the local pimps out of Detroit
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Here she came from a deeply religious family her father's pastor of one of the Largest black churches in the country Uh and an evangelist Uh it was back in the old country And she sang in the church choir of course where she got Uh music ability and talents Uh But instead of Ted loving her and treating her like a wife He was busy always trying to make her feel less than what she was
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  Uh and she really didn't ever understand that {NW} Uh it it it drove her to narcotics It almost And almost killed her
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Uh You know and I knew Ted's cousin like I said I knew a bunch of cats in Detroit when I was in service {NW} So my association with people in Detroit Uh was perhaps on a social level Was Larger scale in my association with people in Dallas And uh You know She loved Ted She could have made him a million dollars but he was too busy trying to make her Feel like she was less than what she was
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And it was because he felt inferior to her
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm they finally split up I think
847:  Yeah they finally split up it was but it was just the good Lord's will {NW} That it happened because he had almost driven {D: a state of oblivion}
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  I and I've seen this in I have a lot of cases like that
Interviewer:  That's so sad it has to go that far before they you know part company
847:  Oh like uh take Diana Ross Uh The cat that she married he can have uh {NS} What do you think about having been a great big super star and dude she married was a {NS} An agent He didn't have a lot of money he wasn't into anything Um And if he had been black she probably would have married him {X} But it was just the fact that Uh I have a friend of mine who used to uh Date her before they got to be Supremes and got famous
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And {NS} She's a very refined and cautious lady And trying to look around and find a love on her level It's kind of hard to do
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  You know how many people have been where she's been how many people has done what she's done
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  As black
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Very few And those males that have gone that far I can guarantee you somebody got them before they got that far #1 They recognized #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  The quality #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  They caught them in high school
Interviewer:  {NW} Well you know it must be too a real psychological uh wrench to uh start looking for somebody that's just great you know
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Because of the variance everybody's raised to it now that must be a real
847:  It's it can be traumatic
Interviewer:  Yeah just in itself if you can find anybody who
847:  #1 The #
Interviewer:  #2 Has #
847:  The trauma comes with uh Peer group of Acceptance
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Um A relative acceptance You know you got to deal with your family too
Interviewer:  Yeah oh gosh
847:  Um But then we have grown up perhaps In an environment too of acceptance due to the fact {NW} That most blacks have some sort of white blood in them {NS} I have a relative of as who Has that high yellow
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know and we used to have another little saying to go with that White and bright damn near white got to be right
Interviewer:  {NW} That's funny
847:  #1 Yeah you know #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  This girl works over in a planning department she's very Splendid you know she's probably over sixty
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And she feels embarrassment to say that to me but I only say it jokingly people have done that And it's a matter of resentment And ridicule and scorn Like my sister And my mother was a {D: well-read} But my grandfather my sister didn't even lie to him and would Very straight head Uh {NS} She suffered A lot of ridicule from my Cousins who Adopted Now they used to call her names like uh {NS} You know what uh Baby Fecal material looks like Yeah yellow And they used to {X} That old shit colored nigger you know {NW} And if she called either one of them a little snot {D: Or assaulted them} She got whipped for that {NW} But if they called her that It was no big deal So she had to grow up With a protective plate here
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Of accepting insults Because she's different
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  So there's a lot of that that was going on Uh they wouldn't Within families So when you start looking around for you know uh {NS} Saying that well you know Jack is going with that white woman over there Sue is courting that white man It doesn't make a difference because it's been going on all the time
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  You know but uh so then the acceptance is a little bit Uh black people accepted A lot more than
Interviewer:  Than the
847:  #1 Than the whites #
Interviewer:  #2 Whites #
847:  Do Because then we have seen more evidence of it right in the community and {NW} And in the family
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  This is my wife's father His wife Uh So when my son came home and he had a white girlfriend it didn't bother me his grandfather's white
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  You know
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  But now I would imagine
Interviewer:  It might have bothered her parents
847:  Yeah in particular her daddy Somehow now my mother didn't care But the father you know
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Big deal well technically
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Uh And I can understand why I understand his you know his thinking And it doesn't bother me I just tell him I told my son is that uh Just be careful You know I uh Always made him have and I still want you know I I grew up in era that's you just didn't lie around with no white woman at night
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Can't lie around in the daytime either Him growing up You know so then I have found myself Even as young as I am Worried about where my son is if he's out with her
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And that should be no concern you know
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  I'm not bothered by that As much nowadays {NS}
Interviewer:  Go you know what I'm supposed to be asking you about um farm stuff so I better get to my farm stuff
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Um
847:  Well we've talked another hour worth of tape
Interviewer:  Yeah this is a lot more interesting than the farm stuff {X} But let's ask you the farm stuff um yeah let me ask you what kind of heat did you have in the house
847:  Well in that in that house in O'Donnell you know the little Stuck old flat I was telling you about
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Um We had a coal burning stove It would burn wood too
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh {NS} And there was I remember the It was made out of the Blue steel My galvanized blue steel
Interviewer:  Oh yeah yeah
847:  #1 Like #
Interviewer:  #2 Well # {D: A rife barrel}
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  That little stove Uh {NS} Then I remember that first The stove at school That first stove Stove was a big what we called a pot belly Big iron stove Big old thing
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And you had to shovel coal in it
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  The top And then the ash fell down to the bottom and you'd scoop it out of the bottom You know it would fall And we'd dump it out
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Um The stove that we used to cook on In O'Donnell You know I don't really remember that stove Uh {NS} It was my gas burner It was a wood stove too
Interviewer:  Hmm how'd you make a fire did you
847:  {NW} Um
Interviewer:  Newspaper
847:  Newspaper Newspaper matches and kerosene
Interviewer:  That's dangerous
847:  Well you know you You got to pretty proficient and know how to set you a fire you might have this blowing up on you a couple of times
Interviewer:  Yeah well
847:  You know
Interviewer:  yourself
847:  Like uh you know babies two years old now they uh Eighteen months wants to burn their finger they say hot Hot Well you know you learn what's hot when you get to dealing with kerosene and it blows up on you
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know
Interviewer:  Those
847:  So
Interviewer:  You just had to have them
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Oh what happened if the can blow up or
847:  Well it's all like an explosion it was just a very big one {N} And it blows out on you Now I but I knew a lot of people that had happened to and they got burnt severely I was just lucky now that I never really got burned really bad
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Um and I remember that galvanized stove {NW} It would get red hot I mean like you know how steel gets in a steel mill
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And it would seem like the fire was going to come through the wall the thing would get so hot {NS} You know But uh and you were not to get next to it
Interviewer:  Sure
847:  Not stand too close to it unless you caught your clothes on fire {NW} I was scalded back of my calf now I got too close to one So it's not real not a terrible scar
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  But I remember what it's from you know {D: pick somebody I snatch} I backed up against the stove you know
Interviewer:  Very distinct #1 Memory of that #
847:  #2 Yeah # Very distinct #1 Memory of that #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  And I don't even get close to stoves now
Interviewer:  I think I wouldn't either after experiencing that
847:  Uh Then we had In Calvin There was this huge Cooking stove the one we cooked on it had an oven It had a Five uh Things on the top you know you'd lift them out and you could touch your skillet in it and the heat would come up to it
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And that was a dang good old stove that stove baked as well as anything gas today {NS} Uh {NS} Then we left After you know In Houston {NW} Um That part of the family there they always had a little more modern things Uh we had you know the {D: recliner} Uh Gas heaters And that was the little galvanized heater {NW} What uh the uh Sort of a asbestos Opening stuck in it and And the fire would run up the side of it I guess it would trap {NW} The gases in it and burn them off to keep them from uh {NW} Uh going out into the room
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And that was made out of it was It was a galvanized type So then
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And then came the stoves with the little brick hats on them you know
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh so I guess we graduated with the stoves like everybody else did
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  Air conditioning was a thing that uh We didn't have air conditioning until I got into high school
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  I went uh the window water fans
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah I heard of those #
847:  #2 Um # {D: And then there was a little Emerson fans} It never blew directly on you it might you would wake up and it would blow on the walls those things would
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  The rotating fan
Interviewer:  Yeah this like this
847:  You know how they would go
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
847:  #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  Every time I'd wake up the fan would be it would turn around to the wall
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  I don't know what
Interviewer:  And stop
847:  It would stop #1 Hitting the wall #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  And I remember when my aunt always had heat bumps {NW} People don't have heat bumps anymore like I don't guess they do not in the city Since everybody's got hair on them {NW} But I remember she used to have these terrible {NW} Heat bumps And it come because we had some of the hottest summers that I can remember Back then I re- can remember {NW} It would be a hundred and five a hundred and ten {NW} He's got up to a hundred and fifteen
Interviewer:  Sounds horrible
847:  Uh
Interviewer:  Unbearable
847:  And People think I'm lying you know I the asphalt Had you know the streets uh paved that amount {NW} Is not like the old tar streets {NW} The streets would melt
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm yeah you couldn't walk on it
847:  Couldn't walk on them
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And I remember when it was so hot {NW} In Dallas that dogs could not walk On the sidewalk
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 I'm not #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  Lying #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  Yep yep I I see dogs you know they rush out And get on the cement out on that tar and they'd have to walk in the grass
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Dogs were sharp enough Not to walk on the tar Or on the sidewalk #1 Because #
Interviewer:  #2 Uh-huh #
847:  Sidewalks were hot {NW} That was the year {NS} I remember some news item came out That Someone had put an egg On the street and it cooked
Interviewer:  I've never even heard of #1 That #
847:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #1 Never heard of that #
847:  #2 It really happened #
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  It did
Interviewer:  Well you know I didn't know that it was so hot in my hometown until I've left but every time I tell anybody I was from Wichita Falls They said oh yeah the hottest place in the world I go for you
847:  Is it
Interviewer:  {NW} And then sure enough every almost every summer up here for two or three weeks at a time the hottest place in the nation {X}
847:  That's right its awfully hot there
Interviewer:  Yeah it does but it's dry you know so it's not it's not too bad it's kind of that way when it it's dry um let's see did you ever have a house with a fireplace
847:  House with a fireplace Yeah {NS}
Interviewer:  What do you call that that thing above the fireplace where you might set clay {NS}
847:  Oh I think we called that the mantle
Interviewer:  Okay uh there's usually a place in front of the fireplace where it kind of sticks out you know like um I guess you'd sit on it you know when you're making fire or something What do you call that {NS}
847:  I don't know
Interviewer:  I never called it #1 Anything either #
847:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  We never had a fireplace when I was growing up uh what do you call those things in the fireplace that you lay the wood across um usually metal things {NS}
847:  That was either we called that either a hearth or a hearth I don't know uh {NW} We didn't call them hearth I think I remember calling them hearth
Interviewer:  Okay um do you remember a great big piece of wood in the back like at night {X} The heat would reflect out in the room what what did you have did you have a name for that big piece of wood in the back {NS}
847:  I remember my step father calling it something because The draft from the wind And the chimney {NS} Would make the Fire greater and he would call it the big something but it I forgot what it was you know it just I don't remember what it what what what he called it
Interviewer:  A lot of these questions are like that because they're um they're really geared towards older people and you know you get somebody who's sixty-five or older they go oh yeah that's what
847:  Yeah let me tell you #1 What it is #
Interviewer:  #2 For a lot yeah #
847:  I missed that though
Interviewer:  But that's one of the interesting things about this is we can see where the cutoff point is because you know people over such and such an age and people under such and such age don't know the expression you know but that's good you know just tell me huh I don't know that um what do you call that black that goes up in the chimney you know
847:  That's soot
Interviewer:  Okay and let's see oh tell me what kind of uh leather furniture you had usually what kind of stuff did you have with leather
847:  I started to say sofa But we called it divan
Interviewer:  Well is there a difference between sofa and divan or they're the same thing
847:  They're the same thing I guess
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  #1 You know you know #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  The The divan was the biggest thing in the room
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And three or four people could sit on it
Interviewer:  Yeah okay
847:  Uh Uh there was the uh Always a rocking chair Uh And the big chair was always a big chair You know like what do they call them now
Interviewer:  I hear they call them daddy's chair {NW}
847:  Yeah #1 You know it was just #
Interviewer:  #2 It's a big chair #
847:  Big chair
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know but then Sofa didn't come to me until later years I I didn't start uh recognizing sofa until I was Um I guess uh in my mid teens
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And I started You know that sofa surfaced to me
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Uh but a divan Was just a divan and maybe it was maybe the divan might have been A brand name
Interviewer:  I don't know #1 Might be #
847:  #2 I don't know # You know #1 But uh I just remember #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  {NW} Um it wasn't a sofa You know the sofa thing every time I see a sofa now I'm tempted to say divan
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
847:  So
Interviewer:  What did I call it I guess I would call it a {NS}
847:  Oh wait a minute I have another one Couch
Interviewer:  Couch that's what I would call it
847:  Yeah yeah
Interviewer:  I couldn't I couldn't think of #1 The word #
847:  #2 Yeah # Yeah well you see Divan was first couch second and sofa last
Interviewer:  Okay right I get it {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh let's see oh what do you call a piece of furniture that you put in the bedroom has drawers in it you put your clothes in it fold fold things up socks and that sort of thing what is it
847:  A chester drawer
Interviewer:  Okay you ever hear it called anything else
847:  Um {NS} Yeah but I forget {NS} I remember hearing that not too long ago {NW}
Interviewer:  Okay is there a difference between chifforobe and the chester drawer or are they the same thing
847:  Same thing
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  Unless the chifforobe was the was the one with a mirror on it {NW} That I call a dresser
Interviewer:  Oh okay okay yeah now if it has a mirror I call it dresser too but
847:  Yeah I don't even know how you would even begin to spell chifforobe {NW} I just remember that that's what it sounded like
Interviewer:  You know I've never even heard that word before I started doing this
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Yeah a lot of people call it that a lot of people
847:  Still do too
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  But mostly older
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Older people
847:  {X} {NS} I remember my grandfather having {NW} A wardrobe closet And it was a thing that stood High Would have a mirror on it In the front
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  On the door you know had a door a lot like uh Maybe four feet long or tall however you want to say it And inside was a place to hang Coats uh Shirts Suits excuse me pants Very small space like this {NW} Into the side of it Had these little drawers in them Very uniquely made you know and that was a dresser {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  I want no wardrobe closet
Interviewer:  Oh okay this is a yeah
847:  And and he called it a wardrobe closet This here
Interviewer:  Did you have a place to put your hats like a shelf on
847:  Keep a little shelf right there But it was a piece of furniture not a closet
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Just a piece of furniture
Interviewer:  I think my grandparents had one except I think I don't think it had drawers it wasn't that fancy it was it had it had two doors and it was all hanging stations and shelf I think at the top and and uh maybe shoes down at the bottom something like that but it didn't have drawers {NS}
847:  And there was the iron beds
Interviewer:  Iron beds
847:  Mm-hmm {NS} You know you know what The big fellows you're The brass beds with the tubular type
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Well then that was that was that was an iron bed And everybody had their iron bed #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 Huh #
847:  Uh man I I remember the first {NW} Bedroom furniture That I remember my mother buying Very fine piece of furniture And she was really proud of that furniture Because We graduated from the iron beds to that See now iron beds Had the springs that went across the bottom of it
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  You know And That was before And you always have to put a couple mattresses on top of #1 The thing #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh #
847:  You know #1 You remember #
Interviewer:  #2 Keep you # From feeling those
847:  Yes as a matter of fact I'll pass by Some antique places that I've seen the iron #1 Beds #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  #1 But #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah # I was going to say {D: They might be cut} Too
847:  Yeah they did {NW} But they were sturdy beds though #1 You #
Interviewer:  #2 Uh-huh #
847:  Couldn't wear one out
Interviewer:  I'm sure that's true were they comfortable?
847:  Yeah you had to kind of build them up to make them #1 Comfortable though #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  #1 You know yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 Pile up the mattresses # Uh what do you call those things that a window that you that you pull down to shut off the light {NS}
847:  Window shade
Interviewer:  Okay um hmm my voice is gone it happens every time I record something my voice
847:  That's what I was telling you #1 About #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  Me and the cold weather
Interviewer:  I better go have my hearing check I wonder if I've got hearing loss uh oh what do you call the space at the top of the house that's just under the roof you store things up there
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Sometimes they're big enough to walk around in sometimes they're not that tall
847:  It became an attic to me later but we always called them a loft
Interviewer:  Oh you did that's interesting did you all uh keep boxes and stuff and the old furniture and stuff up there or
847:  Yeah whatever you didn't want to use but you didn't want to throw it away
Interviewer:  Yeah right
847:  That's what went up in the loft
Interviewer:  Yeah okay okay
847:  And when I first had heard of attic I just didn't relate to attic
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And it's kind of I mean you know I relate to attic now {X} Come in {NS}
Aux:  Good morning excuse me would you like to have some tea {NS}
Interviewer:  That's okay {NS} {X}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} Sometimes when I'm trying when I'm trying to get somebody to to tell me something that they always say like sometimes it's a dirty word or something they don't want to say it in front of me you know
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  But I'm trying to get them to tell me for the record I'll say oh come on I won't tell anybody
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  That means they'll go ahead and tell me they know it's on tape
847:  {NW} Know it's on the tape
Interviewer:  Yeah um did you have a little room off the kitchen where you put canned goods and extra dishes and stuff like that
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  What did you call that
847:  There wasn't pantry {NS} Store room
Interviewer:  Okay the same thing as pantry
847:  #1 Same thing as #
Interviewer:  #2 You call it the same thing now #
847:  They're the same thing
Interviewer:  Okay um what would you call a bunch of old worthless things that you're going to that you're about to throw away just haven't gotten around to throw them away yet or give them to goodwill or whatever {NS}
847:  I don't know I relate to it as being junk
Interviewer:  Okay did you have a did you put junk in the attic or did you have another place where you threw the junk
847:  Well there was good junk And bad junk
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  The good junk went up in the loft
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  You know And if it was something you really didn't care about You'd set it outside
Interviewer:  What happened to it
847:  {NW} Back then people didn't steal that much {X}
Interviewer:  Nobody would steal it
847:  Nobody would steal it
Interviewer:  Um what all kinds of stuff do did women have to do women or whoever the one who's doing it to you know the house is dirty and they were having company come over they'd have to do what
847:  {NS} Straighten up
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Um have you ever heard uh red up to red up the house
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  I haven't heard that oh yeah well since I started doing this I started hearing that
847:  {NW} That would be like if you were in the kitchen they would say {NW} Get on up into the front of the house
Interviewer:  Get on up
847:  Get on up into the front of the house
Interviewer:  Right {NW}
847:  {X}
Interviewer:  It's like up and down confusion
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW} We don't use the word {D: like that} Uh what do you call that thing that you sweep with
847:  {X}
Interviewer:  Okay um oh what do you call that thing that if you had a two story house we'd call that thing we we use to get to the first floor or the second floor {NS}
847:  Stairs
Interviewer:  Okay but the outside would you call it the same thing
847:  Uh When I was young I called it big steps
Interviewer:  Right {NW}
847:  Yeah but I think now it's stairs to me
Interviewer:  Uh-huh okay um you mentioned had a a front porch or a back porch
847:  Yeah we had a front porch One Each place had a porch
Interviewer:  Uh-huh in front
847:  Front porch And at the house in Calvin there was a back porch {NW} Uh one duplex we lived in had a screen in Side porch That we called a screen in back porch Wasn't in the back because there was a bedroom in the back and no door {NW} Back there So it was those five screened in Porch
Interviewer:  Either in the back or in the front
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah what would you call it would you still call it a porch or would you call it something else if it went like all the way across the front of the house and maybe all the way down one side you see them and they're pretty big
847:  I remember older people Before I started saying porch it was a gallery
Interviewer:  That's interesting
847:  You know going on the gallery
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
847:  You know that's where the swing was You know a swing would be out on the gallery
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know {NS}
Interviewer:  {X} #1 What if it was a #
847:  #2 {X} #
Interviewer:  What if it was on the second story would you call it a porch or
847:  Uh {NS} Porch now I call it a balcony
Interviewer:  Okay um if the doors are open and you don't want that way you might tell somebody to get up and
847:  {NS} I would say shut the door
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  Uh {NS} Here recently I'm saying close the door please
Interviewer:  {X} I say shut the door too
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  {NW} Uh oh what would you call the boards on the outside of the house that overlapped each other
847:  {NW} Planks
Interviewer:  Okay okay ever heard them called anything else {NS}
847:  Uh {NS} No
Interviewer:  Okay um how old were you when you learned to drive
847:  {NS} Ten
Interviewer:  Ten #1 How'd you manage #
847:  #2 Mm-hmm #
Interviewer:  That
847:  {NS} Well you know I told you my aunt was uh at was a double amputee {NW} And uh She bought a new car
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And She always had to have somebody chauffeur her around And since I was growing tall she figured that it would be You know in due time by the time I got to twelve That I could do all the chauffeuring around
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  And uh I remember the first time I was always sharp enou- you know I was sharp enough to watch people Shift into gears you know and I would see you know mash in on the uh What do you call the thing That's {NW} #1 The clutch #
Interviewer:  #2 Clutch #
847:  Clutch
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Haven't had a clutch in so long in a car
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And uh This fellow took me out on a country road there He could have taken me down main street in O'Donnell
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah right #
847:  #2 {NW} # {NW} Barely outside of town And I'm here I am shifting gears looking at my feet {NW} And I'm so scared into death {NW} Because I'm trying to figure out Get the coordination
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  I'm off the gas on the brake to the clutch
Interviewer:  Right
847:  And I was Really didn't even fit my feet he almost had a heart attack
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 I was going like #
Interviewer:  #2 You were right there #
847:  Sixty miles an hour {NW} Trying to get my feet right {NS} {NW}
Interviewer:  No what a raw tale
847:  Yeah {NW} You know the Lo- The Lord protects fools and children
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He was a fool and I was a
Interviewer:  You were a child
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  That's funny I remember the first time I ever drove I was in driver's ed in high school I got thirty miles an hour and it scared me to death because I I see trees whizzing past you know feels like I was just racing down the road now I get impatient if somebody goes thirty miles an hour
847:  Yeah well that was a real trip up I guess I've had some narrow escapes in my life that was one And I didn't it didn't frighten me I asked him so what are you scared of
Interviewer:  Yeah what's the big deal
847:  Yeah and I was I was a real smartass too
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  No really I just I was a brat too I remember that That I would challenge I recognize that some of the older black people were They were illiterate and ignorant And with my growing up around my aunt You know being ten eleven years old and you start really knowing that you kin- that you know something that older people don't know {NS} Uh Like you know I did yeah that was real fun {NS} {NW} Sure they just hated you for it too I don't know they might have been hollering at the No I I think they liked me really liked me and I can remember people saying {NW} That's a good boy and I said deal with it
Interviewer:  Yeah {NW}
847:  He's a good boy
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And there was this gentleman who used to come see my aunt And I always thought And She got to be my aunt After I got in high school in Dallas Because it was just wasn't very proper saying auntie
Interviewer:  Oh that's what you called her though when you lived with her
847:  And she was Aunt Dorothy
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
847:  You know wasn't no Aunt Dorothy none of that business
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
847:  And it was Aunt Dorothy
Interviewer:  Aunt yeah
847:  That's right And he was He was coming to call into court
Interviewer:  Oh I see
847:  Totally illiterate old gentleman but he was real suave
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  You know Uh no matter how he lived with people uh there's always that Masculine thing that's got to come out of him
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  #1 And he would come by #
Interviewer:  #2 Come by #
847:  He would come by He would come by and sit and she would ask him a question she Oh Mister Fields have you ever been to Some place you know Yes Misses Giddings
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  I has been to Galveston um uh Galveston Texas
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  I was in Galveston {NW} Oh it could have been some time ago
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And he was very proper you know and he would say And she would ask him if he could handle saying a revelation about something he'd say {NW} Oh I does I certainly does
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Man he used to {D: stress} Me out because I knew better at age ten than to say I does
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  He didn't And it was I would be you know like rolling
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And when he would leave And she would say What are you doing I would say I does I does {NW}
Interviewer:  Rat
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah but he was a real trickster that old man {NW} But he's very nice now
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
847:  Um He always had some Magic medical potions You know he worked at John Sealy Uh As a orderly I guess
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And it was something he always learned how to make when he was down there
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  And he was coming right up with these home remedies Made up like they were real laboratory Geniuses
Interviewer:  Oh yeah God it's just like what do they give to you {NW} Did you ever try any of them
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Did it work
847:  It worked
Interviewer:  Can't not make it work can you
847:  {NW} My mother told me about some sort of a fad That A lady made it was made up out of Lye {NS} Animal fat Coal ashes and something else And this person had during that time have cancer {NW} And Whatever this was that they made up they applied it To his tumor And in due time This thing just lifted up out of the socket
Interviewer:  Ew
847:  Like you cut a corn out
Interviewer:  Mm
847:  And
Interviewer:  Incredible
847:  This person the doctor said was going to die within a few days or weeks or whatever it was
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  They had no cure And uh whatever this was that this lady made up And she told me how to make that stuff The same thing with the stuff I was telling you about this man made up {NW} He made it out of grape fruit juice And some other things And was Not like a lac- It was like a laxative But it had Sort of a purifying effect it cleaned your whole body out Your elimination would be as black as this pebble
Interviewer:  Horrid
847:  But It Like On a high blood pressure indigestion That sort of thing like if a person ate too much and they had {NW} What they called back then the {D: colic} And the {D: colic} Came from eating uh Cabbage and other foods that would uh Spoil real quick And people would get real sick {NW} But this stuff that this man made up It would make It even changed make people's complexion better {NW} {D: They got all the impuritans out of their body you know just just} Like a flushing system And you'd have to drink this stuff for about a week {NW} And I always said I would remember how to make it because I know how it made It made you feel just completely new after you drank it
Interviewer:  Hmm did it taste bad
847:  It didn't taste good but it didn't taste like castor oil
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And if you could sweeten that with sugar I don't know I just can't remember what it was #1 But it was #
Interviewer:  #2 Huh # Modern medicine I think has a lot to learn from things like that I you know I have to pick and choose which one but to reject them all is stupid
847:  Yeah to reject all of them it really is stupid because Uh Some things that happen to people today And we let them go Uh They did work You know old remedies did work
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh It could be that Modern science and technology What has really happened Lot of things in this credit existence as a means of uh This is my estimation of what has happened {NS} To sell something {NW} You know You you'll have someone will come along with a Manufactured item and say it's better than this or that Um it has these properties in it And this is the the the nutritional value Uh this is the vitamin content and so forth And they spell it out and they say this is no good or this you know {NW} Uh and I know darn well that it does work
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh My aunt used to make up something it had uh Cinnamon in it Uh I don't know what the hell what all was in there it had a petroleum jelly {NW} And it made people's hair grow
Interviewer:  Really
847:  Yeah She uses it {D: pressing all everything} I haven't seen anything like it on the market Um That Whatever that formula was it went to Agree with him
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  Uh
Interviewer:  Too bad you didn't write it down
847:  That's right {NS} There was a fellow that use to shine shoes in Dallas {NW} Who had Something he made up some sort of a paste It can make your shoes stay shined a week And why you know you know silicones and all this business
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  You know how silicone closes the pores of the shoes of the leather
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  It causes crack but this stuff let them breathe #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 Very # Interesting
847:  And he passed away about three years ago And I procrastinated up to his death about I was going to get him to give me that Whether it was he made it And he wouldn't tell anybody he told me once he said I might tell you one day Soon as I like you
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  He ain't ever told anybody
Interviewer:  That's too bad I wonder what in the world it could have been probably probably never told anybody no way
847:  He didn't ever tell anybody
Interviewer:  Huh {NS}
847:  So you know like uh Ignorant people I would say not ignorant illiterate people and to me there's a difference between ignorance
Interviewer:  Yeah and
847:  And illiteracy
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Uh Uh They were they were ignorant but not illiterate
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  You know
Interviewer:  And real shrewd some of them
847:  Well they might have been wait no they were illiterate they're not ignorant They knew things that Perhaps a literary genius Being literate Would not permit you to know But here's this illiterate person Who is not ignorant Who knew a lot of things That literate people don't know
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah that's an interesting point about how literacy for uh for actually for men {X}
847:  #1 That's right #
Interviewer:  #2 You don't # Consider something worth knowing
847:  That you bypass like
Interviewer:  Yeah mm-hmm that's real interesting you know that's really one of the things that this survey is for because um one thing I did originally when restarting was to preserve some old things to get some older people well actually it was originally for all older people it started like in nineteen twenty-nine and they went out and got these Seventy-five year old people in New England and got recipes and and remedies and things like that
847:  {NW} You know it's it's like it's {NW} I know I know a number of con men I grew up catching with con men and
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And uh {NW} The hardest people for them to con Are ignorant and illiterate people
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  The easiest person to con is the person who has literacy And who feels like he's not ignorant
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm yeah you already know they're ignorant
847:  {D: You don't lose here}
Interviewer:  Yeah right
847:  And he can relate to being slick and sharp And then what people get conned with is they want something for nothing
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
847:  It's very difficult to approach an ignorant uh illiterate person With a fast game They are too slow they want to say huh Explain that to me
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Well I don't believe that #1 You you #
Interviewer:  #2 Uh-huh #
847:  Is that really the truth Oh no you're not going to get me that for nothing #1 I know better than that #
Interviewer:  #2 Probably # They know they're not going to get something like that
847:  {NW} And they says it's not worth your time it'll get you {X} One man can get you busted real quick
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Because
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Asking too many questions they'll go ask somebody Do you know This fellow came to me and said this or that what do you think about that
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  It's really hard to fool them
Interviewer:  That's interesting oh let's see what have I got here okay back to housing what we call little buildings where you keep gardening tools stuff like that {NS}
847:  Well I call it store house
Interviewer:  Okay um say you had a house that that uh say it's like this it comes in front of the house and it's got a right angle like that and and those parts of the house are have a peaked roof like this no
847:  Yeah I know what you're talking about
Interviewer:  Here and then there's a low place where they join do you have a name for that low place on a rooftop
847:  No
Interviewer:  Neither did I
847:  Uh-huh
Interviewer:  {X} Uh oh what do you call those things that go on the edge of the roof that carry water off
847:  Rain gutter
Interviewer:  Okay um oh have any experience at all with a farm
847:  Yeah you know like being in in O'Donnell Go on the farm quite a bit
Interviewer:  Yeah well what kind of uh what kind of buildings did they have on the farms out there
847:  {NW} Well there was the {NS} Some farmers had pig pens For little pig houses you know you know There's a barn Uh We didn't call them silos though Thing where they kept the corn
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And uh the grain
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  I've forgotten what they call those
Interviewer:  Was it a separate building
847:  Yeah People always kept In a uh Circular type building it was made circular
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And real tar most of the time
Interviewer:  Huh
847:  Uh And there was a chicken house
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh And they either called that the chicken roost
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  The chicken roost or the chicken house
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Well I think the roost were the things that they built in there with the little Boards that run across Where the chicken was fed up on it
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh And then there was a little chalk-like thing with the hay in it Folded up for the hens to lay they eggs in
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  I forgot what they called those things But I remember {NS}
Interviewer:  You remember something that they put under the hen to make her think she was sitting on on her own egg and it would make her lay
847:  Yeah I don't know what they call that though Uh my grandfather had A lot of chickens
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  As a matter of fact that's the only way we got to eat chicken around here It was at uh you had to get you know grow your own chicken
Interviewer:  Then you had to kill it too yuck
847:  Yeah that was always the trick
Interviewer:  {NW} Did you ever do that
847:  I remember perhaps wringing the neck off a couple of chickens And you know the blood just
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  #1 And the #
Interviewer:  #2 Gross #
847:  Chicken is flopping around
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And I always hated that
Interviewer:  Oh that's gross yeah I don't think I'd care for that either
847:  My mother My grandfather had a little banty rooster
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  It was his pet rooster {NW} And my grandfather You mentioned you thought he was a very good looking old man he was And all all the ladies were in their life I guess they might have had younger women back then Anyway Uh he had refused to buy Groceries And My mother came from Dallas Now {X} This story she related to me {NS} And she killed his pet banty rooster
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And cooked it
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  Fed it to him
Interviewer:  Oh that is horrible did you do it intentionally how mean why'd you do that
847:  Because uh He had neglected his responsibilities to the family {NS}
Interviewer:  {NS} That's so funny {NW}
847:  And he was looking for his rooster
Interviewer:  Oh go-
847:  And he had a name I forgot what the name was {NW} And he would say Has anybody seen whatever his name is
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And uh {NS} My grandmother was afraid of my grandfather she called him mister Williams {NW} had all the respe- They said afraid but it was a manner of respect That submissive respect that women had for their husband {NS} And she said no mister Williams I haven't seen She knew my mother had killed him
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  So I asked my mom I said tell me have you seen my rooster And whatever his name was let's call him Charlie {NS} She said yeah you ate it
Interviewer:  {NW} That's awful
847:  He said what do you mean I ate him She said well you know the chicken you ate yesterday That was him
Interviewer:  {NW} What did he say then?
847:  It made him sick He got immediately sick
Interviewer:  {NS} Isn't that #1 Funny #
847:  #2 He # He became immediately sick and he stayed sick for {NS} A week or so {NS} He couldn't go to work
Interviewer:  Oh that's terrible he must have really liked that rooster
847:  Yeah you know like the little rooster did tricks for him Would like see him coming down the road and go meet him and walk back with him Sit on his shoulder you know
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  And {NW}
Interviewer:  That was terrible to do that to him {X} That is such a funny thing to do though gosh that's funny
847:  They could have made a movie out of that one I think
Interviewer:  Yeah they could have
847:  Yeah that was real you know And before my mother passed she passed four years ago She used to talk about Feeding her daddy his pet rooster
Interviewer:  {NW} Your mother had a mean streak {NW}
847:  Yes she did
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  You know I told you my sister got married when she When she finished college
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And uh {NS} My mother didn't speak to her for five years
Interviewer:  Because she didn't like the guy
847:  No it was just the idea That she had worked as hard as she had {NW} Thinking that she was doing the right thing sacrificing all these things {NW} And my mother was making about fifteen seventeen dollars a week here And my sister was She went to Lincoln High school She was Miss Lincoln Uh {D: She was Miss Tolleson when she was in college}
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  She was uh voted the best dressed girl Uh ya know and it took a lot of sacrifice You know a lot of bean cooking #1 Uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  You know uh
Interviewer:  But then you go
847:  Yeah lot of butt kissing too #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
847:  {X} You see because in the family it was supposed to go like this As the oldest You know you move the oldest one out And it's the oldest's responsibility To pick out the next one coming along And that's the reason why I was telling you even though my brother's two years older than I am I respect him as an elder
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  You know I don't argue with him You know I don't uh You know when we were kids we would fight {NW} And go on but it was always that He was left in charge
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Now with my younger brother I was in charge of him You know and like My younger brother respects me like I said {X} For nothing because he used to win them all the time {NS} You know and he was he was he wasn't cruel But he'd pick some real Questionable times to want to Discipline his younger brother
Interviewer:  I see
847:  {NW} So
Interviewer:  Bad timing
847:  Yeah I wasn't even now Uh with my kids I'm not a strict disciplinarian I believe in being strict in what you Uh in what you say and what you do In r- In relation to your discipline But being uh Physical in discipline I never liked that never appreciated it And of course I know when I was a kid I didn't like whippings And I knew that whippings did not curtail any of my action
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  So it had to be that you looked for some Psychology in dealing with kids Anyway that's uh kind of Goes back to a lot of things it was talking about there
Interviewer:  Well it's amazing that she could keep it up for five years without speaking to her
847:  My sister would write her {NW} She would burn the letters and send them back The ashes back to her
Interviewer:  My gosh
847:  Yeah she was
Interviewer:  She was mad
847:  Yeah she was mad
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  She became obsessed with her anger
Interviewer:  Well she got over it though
847:  Well she got over it she when she passed she was living with my sister in California
Interviewer:  Huh huh that's #1 Interesting #
847:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  Uh what do you call the upper part of the barn where you might keep the hay {NS}
847:  I forgot it I do know there was a name for it though
Interviewer:  What what did they do with the hay did they ever just pile it outside the barn or or put it all in the b-
847:  Yeah I'd put all the hay in the barn You know if you leave hay out in the weather it'll rot
Interviewer:  I guess I don't know I've never thought much about hay
847:  Yeah you know like uh then it Uh it wouldn't you know the cows didn't like it
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Uh when you'd leave it If you leave it out too long like that when you when you have hay
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Because uh Rain And snow and all would make it just Almost turn back to the dirt
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  You know just water there
Interviewer:  Right yeah how am I doing on tape here
847:  We uh {NS} About three quarters going I guess
Interviewer:  Okay um they ever grow hay out there did you ever see them cut hay or anything like that
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  When when they when it'd first come through to cut the hay then what did they do with it after they cut it
847:  Uh {NS} The old machines would just throw it to the side
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And then came the things that bale the hay As it went along and had wires you'd have to set These spools of wire in it And once it got so packed It would automatically It had some things that would bale it and it'd just throw it out to the side
Interviewer:  W- all the old machines would just throw it off to the side what did what did they do to the vent after that do you know
847:  Yeah like uh yeah {X} If there was enough people around they had to come up and gather it up And bundle them things and they had like a {NW} Some tools you know like Very ingenious things they would pull Those wires and stretch them and And twist as hard as the machines would do
Interviewer:  Hmm because they had to bale it by hand
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  They had proper um what all kind of animals did they keep besides\ what you named chickens and hens what else I mean
847:  There was a thing we called guinea
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
847:  I haven't seen a guinea since I've been grown
Interviewer:  There was an old woman in Wichita Falls who used to sell those little guinea eggs
847:  And
Interviewer:  they're good
847:  Um I remember thinking that guineas Peacocks Rabbits {C: siren in background} Um of course the pigs Chickens the ducks {NW} And that's the difference between ducks and geese I know some people who had geese
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  {X}
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  Um Cow the horses Course you had the milk cow Milk cow was standing
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And if a person had Like a a bull Uh they were really doing it you know #1 That bull #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh #
847:  You know
Interviewer:  Yeah uh-huh
847:  Uh Uh there were Several people I knew who had donkeys Uh donkeys were really they was no real use for anything uh
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  Then {NS} Almost everybody had mules because horses were not good plows Never such thing as a good plow horse Mules were the best plow animals that they used
Interviewer:  Oh really huh
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Why couldn't horses do it
847:  Well uh Usually the horses were a little bit were more delicate {NW} Uh and they became It was more Horses are more easy to injure Doing farm lines working like that
Interviewer:  Hmm uh-huh
847:  Uh now the mule Is a cross between A donkey and a horse
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm {NS} Right they're all the same
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  They're sterile there's nothing they can do
Interviewer:  Yeah right {NS} Uh
847:  Uh let me see turkeys I know people had turkeys Rabbits
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  Course then tame rabbits came along a lot later because now when I was in West Texas This time of the year was the time to go to jack rabbit hunting
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Um when I jo- {NW} Jack rabbits and cotton tails
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And um The you actually had professional hunters who would go out And just kill all the rabbits that you can think of you know like people have fried rabbit Brawn rabbit Stewed rabbit smothered rabbit
Interviewer:  Never had rabbit
847:  Never had rabbit
Interviewer:  Uh-uh
847:  There are some places in Dallas last year I found a place that Sold corn fed rabbits And corn fed rabbit tastes A lot like chicken
Interviewer:  Huh I would love to try a rabbit never have tried it never never seen it
847:  Well you fry a rabbit like you do chicken It's um uh flower batter
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  I've known people to put meal batter on it too
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh But and jack rabbits were tougher Uh than uh Cotton tails cotton tail had a {NW} Sweeter more tender meat Sort of like the difference between veal and heavy beef
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  Uh but very good it was good eating and uh There were I know there I don't know where they hunted in West Texas But there were some areas that you can hunt bear and uh {NS} I remember having bear meat steak
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  {NS} {X} {NS} {X}
847:  Alright
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Yeah let's see what he wants
Interviewer:  Okay {NS} Um you were talking about ear aches and allergies and stuff so I got all inspired and uh went to the doctor {X} For my ear ache and and was wondering what was wrong with me and he said I don't think anything's wrong with you he always said that and uh anyways he gave us antibiotics so last night I took the first one And this morning for the first time I woke up with no ear ache I mean it feels so good you know {X}
847:  Antibiotics
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  #1 They will #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  Make you sick
Interviewer:  Just horrible
847:  I uh {NS} Well I heard last Sometime in the last month and this morning That uh there is a {D: Drug Pamolex uh} Uh Was going to present something to the Uh {NS} What what government department is it uh that controls medication
Interviewer:  FDA
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  {NS} Well the report was that {X} Has Has about as much {NS} Pain relieving qualities {NS} As an aspirin And I used to tell my doctor that when he'd give me {X}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  I said these things are no good they make me sick in the first place it's taking me further {NW} And this doctor's got he got a little belligerent with me said you're not a doctor and I'm like look I tell him I said {X} Are no good I said it's just It's a psychological thing that people take {X} It's a psychological thing that they'll take it This will peel off the pain
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And the pain subsides Psychologically But it never did do them any good
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And I was really glad to hear that report You know uh because That medication has been oversold #1 It #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah # Yeah yeah
847:  It could kill you You know and uh a lot of people take it In the hopes of relieving pain And they become psychologically hooked on it and it's nothing And you think about in The inflated cost of {X}
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
847:  You know it's just
Interviewer:  its Aspirin
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Like an aspirin nine out of ten
847:  That's right you know and if you want to get a hundred {X} You might got a {X}
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know so uh It's I just imagine that there are a lot of medications on the market That supposedly are doing various things but don't
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  I'm glad you told your doctor that Because getting over the ear infection You know the pain has to come from something
Interviewer:  I know I'm not dreaming it you know
847:  And he keeps saying oh well there's nothing wrong I don't see anything {NW} Well first thing to do is take an antibiotic Uh I would prefer getting an injection you know like if you get something And the
Interviewer:  Yeah quick
847:  And it's quicker But most of them don't want to give you antibiotics in the first place
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah they give you something like a {X} And then they think it'll go away I had this for two years off and on
847:  You probably had an infection
Interviewer:  Probably something low grade yeah probably I could get more that's why I've been getting more colds and stuff
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Have them
847:  That's right
Interviewer:  Colds and flu and I had the flu like three times last year
847:  {NW} He suddenly can tell you well oh that was I just gave you that to satisfy you I still don't want to use it
Interviewer:  That's right just to just to well towards women you know they don't have anything to do but sit around at home and think about where they hurt you know
847:  Yeah well you know I I think what happens sometimes is doctors will stereotype women And they said oh well There's really nothing wrong with her I'll just give her this and get out of here
Interviewer:  Yeah even if you were a dog gone {X}
847:  Yeah that really makes me angry to see them do that Because uh each person should be treated as an individual {NW} You know not lumped in as {NW} Well here comes another so and so here and I'll give her this pill
Interviewer:  Yeah right
847:  You know
Interviewer:  Here comes another type A
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} Tell me something what is the the are you ready to talk to me
847:  Mm
Interviewer:  Oh okay I was making sure uh what i- what do you do exactly what is the nature of your job
847:  {NW} The nature of my job
Interviewer:  And your title and all
847:  My title Is the director of community development {NS} And community development has Five neighborhood centers Which we call multipurpose centers The activities that go on in the multi-purpose centers Uh things such as Man power units now man power units Uh we're man power counselors And our responsibility is to Recruit persons for jobs that perhaps have been developed Hard jobs owners that may come in And various parts in industry
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh They they're the record keeper system itself something Quite similar to what the state Uh employment agency uh
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Same type of work
Interviewer:  Was this for the marines or or for blacks or for
847:  Well you know it's uh {NS} All persons who would fit into any kind of criteria Ironically what happens though in our program And when the program was mandated on account of this {NS} It was specifically set up at that particular time with blacks in mind {NS} Uh reason being is that uh {NS} This was in the mid sixties when uh the program was created and Being being in the mid sixties Uh words came out the garage and that sort of thing in the sixties. Uh it was determined by members of congress Uh which they had a distinguished panel of uh I guess you would consider them as uh moderate uh liberal Individuals who had Sought to have some specific programs Going to into the {NW} It came out of the fact that uh There were studies that showed That uh the black male Uh was like in in many areas {X} So we came up with a lot of what was called a man power act Training program uh that uh National companies subscribed to And were assisted through federal Uh grants such as uh
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Uh since the NA contract was left to a matter of fact where our contract was left To a company like say Brennan Um {NS} And a portion of these individuals' salary was paid Uh uh three six months something like that pretending like we're train. {NW} Into the programs that uh the positions that they would assume {NW} Well out of this grew The community action programs as they are Which was basically to give the community A space of operation Or a sounding board or a testing board community. {NS} It was recognized in the sixties {NW} That minorities had little or no voice at all In those things that determine What they do on a daily basis Or throughout their whole life. The community action program Uh primary responsibility Is to organize people In the community to assist them In various things that they might need in the community. We first started off with things such as trash pick up lights Uh adequate housing uh Uh which would grow the problems which was directly concerned uh Police brutality in the communities and that sort of thing with the intention to Sensitize police men to {NW} The needs of the black community and actually the sensitivity Uh that they needed in order to deal in the community {NW} how that grew u- Uh counselors would uh Consider them being neighborhood counselors Neighborhood counselors were developed Uh in various parts of the Every community and these persons were seated on an advisory board An advisory committee {NW} That uh have direct linkage with the five neighborhood centers I was telling you about {NW} Each one of them have a community advisory board {NW} Now since the program was set up With blacks primarily in mind {NS} Most of the facilities of the community action program Are located in black communities Uh in in recent years Uh guess in the mid seventies {NW} Has been this concern The government and other entities in the community about uh ethnic entities About discrimination in the community action program uh Primarily what people were saying is that Then the program is uh Not meeting the need of poor people in general in the community {NW} Uh It seems the fact The government completely had people except these programs had forgot That there were poor whites in this country A whole lot of poor Mexicans in the country But at that time Mexicans were being carried {NS} On the Census as being white It was though this Hispanic business was just You know uh Just like uh the word Hispanic to me I probably only realized That even being it existed Two years ago And what has happened Is that man another thing is happening with the Hispanic thing {NW} That means that everybody who has a Spanish surname {NW} No matter what color they are Are thrown into this bag as a Hispanic
Interviewer:  Really Just by their Spanish surname Mm-hmm
847:  Uh then You have the concerns of uh Like I said poor whites Mexican Americans Or Hispanics as they call them now from the government Lumping a group in of Spanish surname {NS} Uh what are community action programs doing Are they meeting the needs of all the people in the community {NW} Well I can tell you that now no Because then the program was set up {NS} With guidelines that specified that Create a necessary and feasible That person who worked in these centers That the ethnic makeup of the staff should be Similar or as close to the ethnic makeup of the community {NW} Well if you set up all the programs all the centers in black neighborhoods Well you're going to come up with All what other than if almost a totally black staff Uh Then that was a concern that I have with uh And the truth of the matter's never been told {NW} Uh federal government And other ethnic entities within a community will say well The community action program needs to be doing more But the community action program ever since In the last I would say in the last six Years to my knowledge funds have been cut {NW} Nationally and locally So how you going to expand the program Or expand the needs In the community because the needs are expanded {NW} Uh in each city in this country it is Uh population isn't going down it's going up {NW} Well the more populous an area is the more poor people it'll have
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And a greater need for more facilities Or there's a greater need for more funds in the program {NS} Well you take in You bring in two more groups you pull whites and you pull Mexicans in How are you going to serve these people {NW} In a program that has been successively cut And the funding is not adequate to take care of those programs and their progress right now So you know it's it's real it comes as a bureaucratic Uh flipping post for a lot of people
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know now we have you know center {X} {NS} Like in the West Dallas center We have affiliation with planned parenthood Uh they have a clinic in the West Dallas center {NS} Uh Mental health mental retardation Is going to locate offices in the West Dallas center Uh We uh have had had strained relationships with really Baylor University's dental college And the mobile units that they used which Is a program that's funded through the seventh day adventist church And it's manned by the Baylor dental program over there With their interns uh students I don't know {D: But you pack them with students} Uh and a professor doctor From over at Baylor Now what they do is they spend ten weeks out of the year And they will locate two weeks In each of the five areas With clinics it goes Five days at a time Uh sometimes a doctor or dentist would run the clinic For two weeks in one area Now we have attempted to get Fifteen or more persons in there Uh dental hygiene work Which would be some extractions a lot of Cleaning a lot of preventive things that they will do To keep from having to do Uh the uh extractions and so forth
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  It's been a very successful program Uh but there has just been a few things that's been going on Uh we uh worked In areas that uh we have to have A matching share a local match share which you would consider Not consider it's called The in-kind non-federal share Now what happens with the in-kind non-federal share Is in each share we have a resource coordinator Whose responsibilities are to Seek in the community Various things such as donations and Durable goods Service Time or volunteering at uh Some point in time Uh in the program activities This counts the same as money And that's what we're saying that the community has given Uh last year give four The in-kind responsibilities Of a community action program was increased From twenty percent to forty percent Which I felt that was a Not well it wasn't very appealing to me Because then when you yeah When you try to take a program That you uh funded at a level of almost two million dollars And you're going into the community and asking for forty percent match share
Interviewer:  Good luck
847:  You just don't get that
Interviewer:  Really
847:  Uh then the auditors for the Community service administration {NW} And they're extremely rigid And they had assistants that would do this {NW} Now it's back down to twenty percent Because people just couldn't meet some meet their quarters they'd match Uh all the federal government did And the community service administration I feel like what they did is make a bunch of people that are liars They forced people to lie {NW} You know here in {D: questionary times it's hard as hell} {NW} To get anybody to give you a dime or a penny And when you start going out looking for Four hundred or five hundred thousand dollars What for services and goods
Interviewer:  Really
847:  In a program You're going to just be banging your head upside brick walls somewhere
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And I think they recognize that It's impossible to do it Even though we did come up with some portion of it sometimes In-kind reports like uh every company in town who After well this is uh February they expect it the first {NW} Well that means in the middle of February The books for March will be out like uh {D: Commercial} {X} Well Now in this continent is the distribution company And what they do is they go to news stands and they bring these books in it's there on the front cover And the book's perfectly good So what we've been doing is picking up {NS} Twenty thirty thousand dollars for books Every month and distributed them to like nursing homes Uh senior citizen centers Uh county jail boys home Uh and in outlets uh like down in McKinney {D: Joaquin} Um we sold it to them there because It was current reading material Every now and then we'd sort of get them A lot of Pornographic {NW} Material in I can think of one time
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  When
Interviewer:  Into the boys club that's really
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} #
847:  So uh that was quite comical too you know
Interviewer:  Yeah I guess
847:  Because some of this stuff went to uh {NW} Went down to the county jail
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  You can about imagine how Just locked up for all this time
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
847:  Pornographic #1 Material #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh that's right #
847:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # That's pretty funny
847:  So that was a little bit of comedy involved there
Interviewer:  What kind of advisory council does the is the {X} Do they volunteer or are they paid
847:  They volunteer
Interviewer:  Uh-huh where are the site centers today
847:  Okay we have centers that are located {NW} In now sales pitches strategically located
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  In each area of the city
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Uh
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  We have the one in {X} That's located uh In the Educational building of the Saint John Baptist Church Saint John is the largest Baptist black church in town {NW} Uh but now we don't have any religious affiliation with the church {NW} As a matter of fact we can't even locate Any of our program activities At a {NS} Building or sanctuary where a crucifix may be You know that's uh I wouldn't say that I like that because {NS} Uh the reason why I don't like it {NW} Is that I genuinely believe that {NW} Without some Religious Without religion We don't have very much to hope for in this country {NW} And then well federal programs let an atheist like Madalyn O'Hair
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
847:  You know take prayer out of schools {NS} Uh and we look at Social programs where people need all the spiritual guidance that they can possibly {NW} That you can possibly muster to them And it's a matter of dealing with their spirit tangible things poor people really don't deal with {NW} Because they don't have very much hope of having more than what they do
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  So you've got to deal with their spirit a little bit I'm not going to preach this {X} #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
847:  But uh but we don't have any religious affiliation We supposedly have no political affiliation {NW} All we're supposed to be doing is uh Motivating people for social reasons And happen to motivate them to Bring about some social change
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  But I genuinely believe and I know factually That there can be no social change without political #1 Change #
Interviewer:  #2 Right # That's true
847:  That the process of social change starts with politics
Interviewer:  Exactly
847:  So then it's like uh I sit here and I say we have no political affiliation {NW} We don't in a sense of speaking Have any {X} Politics that are played {NS} Uh people in the community on these advisor committees {NS} They play big politics to get what they want out of this program {NW} Even after threatening to have the facilities closed boycotting {NW} Whatever they might think that they're going to break into To scare you into Providing various things for them {NW} {X} Is that It's not a real Speedy process politically in the community Because see you have Your power groups out there what I call them power brokers {NW} Your power brokers come up And then they become very political in their community Um {NS} And you end up with two or three people actually running that whole community
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  That I don't like because then that's not what the process is supposed to be. {NW} I complained about it But then I found very few people who will listen And listen well enough to me to say let's do something about it.
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Because then they're politically minded They're political minded too .
Interviewer:  Yeah sure
847:  So
Interviewer:  it's human nature.
847:  Yeah you know like you just have to be a political animal nowadays.
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And those persons who are not Ain't got a lot of problems. You know and I have a lot of problems sometimes I don't like politics I believe if you have something to do you do it {NW} And if there's a group of people that's out there that don't like what you're doing You tell them to go to hell You know
Interviewer:  And sometimes that isn't easy
847:  No it's not easy as a matter of fact it can be what You would consider As being social and political suicide Um I just don't believe that uh We could have uh Very good programs without politics I think sometimes it's overplayed um {NW} You look at your city government Or your local governments They don't want these people to bother them They don't want people coming down there and disrupting city council or County commissioner's court. You know they don't want that. So then programs have been good Because then we can get a bunch of people down here on meeting nights. {NW} Like when we have a board meetings once a month Which is executive board meetings And advisory committees meet once a month in the areas And everything comes in here and I'll explain that to you in a minute. {NW} They can come in and raise all the hell they want to {NW} It's like ventilating {NW} You give them something to let off that steam there and they let off the steam {NW} Here in this program Because it wouldn't be tolerated Going out there into city hall
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Wouldn't be tolerated there at the county commissioner's court
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Even though we've always had a a few activists to go down and raise hell every now and then {NW} Like Al {B} And two or three other people
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  But you can see how many times they'll in jail And then that they can come down and have a board you see a board He you know he does what he wants to do He'll raise all the hell he wants to {NW} And people sit here and accept it
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know because usually he's got something good to say Even if you don't want to hear it it's usually good what he's got to say {NW} But
Interviewer:  I bet he's a really interesting fellow
847:  Quite interesting He's a very unique person tell you how unique he is {NS} I used to be his bus boy {NW} When I was in high school he was working at safari steakhouse {NW} And
Interviewer:  Huh
847:  After that we wore turbans
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And {NS} It was the {D: Sugar ray} Went to turban fight {X} We knew him very well {NW} Uh Then the next fight Al had everybody Including the man who owned the place mainly {B} That sugar ray Was going to lose {X} {NW} He bet all his money he was going to make For a month To the man who owned the place {NS} All the waiters {NS} He didn't pay anybody because he said it was a fixed fight He said I have seven children at home
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And you people {C:interviewer laughing} Supposed to be my friends I will work for everything My children are going to starve {NW}
Interviewer:  That's funny
847:  He begged and pleaded and cried in the dining room {NW} Felt sorry for him Because he couldn't pay it {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} That is funny
847:  Then then his next Mister Jones
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He almost cried he said now he said anybody but you
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Could not get away with this with me
Interviewer:  That is a
847:  He said if I ever hear of you begging for my job again I'm going to fire you
Interviewer:  {NW} What was he doing was he was he a waiter
847:  Yeah he was a waiter he was the best waiter he was one of the best waiters I've ever seen He was uh What you would call A waiter from an old school he did complete silver service all the time
Interviewer:  Mm
847:  {X} The table A lady couldn't light a cigarette on his station {NW} He kept ash trays clean he kept your water glass filled
Interviewer:  Yep
847:  And everybody always had ice in their glass I hate to go to a place and you get
Interviewer:  Yeah water
847:  Water
Interviewer:  Tea and the
847:  And no ice
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  And I raise all kind of hell about that and people look at you like you're crazy because {NW} Most people don't care
Interviewer:  They don't care yeah
847:  But then {NW} Ice water is supposed to have ice in it Iced tea
Interviewer:  Iced tea
847:  Is supposed to have ice
Interviewer:  Ice in it I did work as a waitress {X} {D: Before it tells you about} {X}
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Scary {NW} But listen I made good money there they paid me a lot better than the academic world
847:  Yeah that's good money
Interviewer:  But these things like the crumbs off the table I mean you got to be good before you do all that
847:  Yeah you got to be good But he was good {NW} I remember one night out he came Flying through the dining room {NW} Has this big tray of steaks {NW} And a flaming shish kabob in one hand
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And a lady Hits the cigarette and he's you know coming all the way from the uh Sting or from the broiler {NW} Allow me please ma'am allow me and the lady Probably thought She was going to burn
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  With the shish kabob
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  All the customers are turning around because that's {C: interviewer laughing} And he's going ya know I just want to light your cigarette
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And his lighter wouldn't work He stood there for a good three minutes trying to make his lighter work
Interviewer:  Oh no
847:  Finally threw his lighter all the way back to the back {NW} Pulled out a pack of matches and said these damn Mechanical things that men are making a bunch a book a matches better {NW} Anyway the way he said it everybody just thought he's real comical
Interviewer:  Yeah that's funny
847:  Uh one night Took about all his good service {X} {NS} He was getting {X}
Interviewer:  {NW} Have
847:  Uh there was a fellow that {NS} This man really had him a profit that night There was a party at six And this cat was a big shot you know Waiter this waiter that bus boy come here you know and Al was really Moving giving him good service
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know
Interviewer:  Good tip if you
847:  But he didn't tip {NS} He left something like {NS} It wasn't fifty cents I don't imagine Might have been sixty cents {NW} But it was mostly and it was You know not a couple of quarters {NW} It was pennies and nickels and a couple of dimes
Interviewer:  Ooh insult
847:  And
Interviewer:  Talk about getting 
Fried
847:  Well Al came he just knew he had a good tip
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah ten dollars #
847:  #2 {X} # You're a very good waiter and
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know but he was just jiving you know {NW} Al came and looked at his kidding Well we always use a little brass tray out there for kidding And uh He said oh come on buster give me my money {NW} I said I don't have your money I said that's all this punk left for you Because I- I said I don't play I never play with the waiter's money I asked him you know is this a matter of business And uh He said I don't know why I asked you that he said I know you don't play with my money He said where's that cheap ass little b I said he's out there paying his bill {NW} And you know like {NS} There was always a line of people coming in and a line of people going out
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Well he caught him just as he was at the register And Al tapped him he said oh sir He said oh yeah hi waiter what is it {NW} He said you left this
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And he says uh oh no uh {NW} That's for you Al said oh no I cannot accept this this is yours did you leave this {NW} He said yeah I left it He said but that's your tip you know {NW} He said no I can't take this
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And the man had the most bewildered look but he had a smart look on his face too and he says to the standing people in the lobby This fool nigger here don't even know That this is a tip
Interviewer:  Right
847:  He says this is your T-I-P You have a tip for your service And Al said I'll tell you what {NW} If this is all that you had to leave for me {NW} You take it and put it in the church because you need t
 to go to church And not come out. A-
-nd threw the thing at his feet {C: interviewer laughing} And the tray bounced up to the floor and all the change just went everywhere
Interviewer:  I love it
847:  And {NW}
Interviewer:  That's fantastic
847:  It shocked everybody {NS}
Interviewer:  I'll tell you there's been times where I wanted to do the same
847:  So he just knew he was going to be fired
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  He started pulling off his turban and his turban looked about twelve feet of {NW} Muslin gauze around your head
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  He just pulled it off and was streaming you know
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  From the lobby back to the kitchen
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  And uh the manager Came back and said Al why did you do that And he said tell you what said you know you don't really pay me that much for working here {NW} He said I give this place good service because I want to be tipped for my service {NW} And he said people who are too cheap to tip should not come in here and expect service {NW} He said they need to go to a cafeteria Where there's a food line and pick up their food on a tray
Interviewer:  Right
847:  And the man said and the manager told him said you know what I agree with you whole-heartedly {NW} But please don't do that in the lobby anymore {NS} Because if you do I'm going to fire you
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He said go back to work
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  #1 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 Lobby # {NW}
847:  But people uh you know the people in the lobby really understood
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Because most of the people that came in there This was out in Preston Forest shopping center {NW} And that was before that area was really built up
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And all the people that lived in there during that time Were richer everybody there was rich
Interviewer:  All your #1 Doctors #
847:  #2 And #
Interviewer:  And lawyers and inherited wealth
847:  That's right
Interviewer:  There
847:  You know and so {NW} All the people came in there except #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
847:  That's right
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  One fellow that uh mister {B} who owned the T-V shop Stereo center next door {NW} To safari Was the cheapest man ever {NS} Uh we only sold hamburger steaks {NS} Uh To like when them boy scouts would come in you know like two or three times
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  A month you know like kids clubs boy scouts Y-M-C-A {NW} And we would always serve them the chopped steaks Which was cheaper than serving you know sirloins and T bones and stuff {NW} And but old {B} Would come in there And order {NS} One fillet small with six ounce {NW} Or an eight ounce Mostly back then was eight ounce {NW} And a salad for two {NW} He would get full off of salad Because it was free {NW} And you know like we served a salad on a thick Oblong disc that looks like a little canoe but it was a big thing {NW} And a salad for two was a great big thing back then you know {NW} And he'd eat all that salad Eat all the garlic bread and the toast that you get free
Interviewer:  It was free
847:  And even you know coffee was free you know the first cup you pay a buck He'd get at least four cups of coffee Salad for two enough bread for four people And eat that one little cheap steak
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
847:  So one night he came in there And Mister Jones was there and we had been telling him about mister {B} {NS} {X} {B} Had a standard tip it was fifty cents
Interviewer:  {NW} Oh that's {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} I think I could have killed the person whoever she gave it to you know
847:  Well
Interviewer:  You're with him not serving him
847:  Then nobody ever wanted mister {B} They even let a bus boy serve him {X}
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  One night he came in and we were serving boy scouts {NW} And he wanted {NS} His one fillet we didn't have any left then had sold out {NS} He says well tell get me a Chopped steak We don't have but one he brought his girlfriend with him {NW} Do you know he was so cheap They ordered one chopped steak a salad for two and two plates
Interviewer:  {X} {NW} And then I think well leave him {NW}
847:  #1 That was #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh that's # Horrible
847:  That was the last straw
Interviewer:  That is horrible
847:  The waiter went and told Mister Jones come here Mister Jones {NW} He said you see that man I'm not gonna wait him {X} {NW} He's a friend of mine {NW} He said that that friend said to us {NW} Order the chopped steak Two plates and a salad for two And he has that woman friend of his
Interviewer:  And now he wants more coffee
847:  He just wants. He's sitting there {NW} Eating all the salad All the bread and drinking all the coffee And they're having one chopped steak in between the two of them {NW} Mister Jones almost went through the ceiling {NW} He went over there said {X} Let me tell you one thing
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  He said if you can't afford To eat in my place. Don't come in my place
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  He said I don't come over to your place and ask for high fives or discounts {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} Did he stop coming in
847:  No he didn't stop coming in
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  And he didn't stop eating chopped steaks either But he didn't ever pull that trick anymore you know like
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah #
847:  #2 {X} #
Interviewer:  At least he didn't with the chopped steak
847:  And that was that was that was That was a living end to me And the man was rich
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah I believe it I believe it and what we did over at I I had been working a {X} Place now and what we do over there we get some of them for a down time initiative which is good And that's only the cake So what we get and these people would come in from the university and
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  And uh urging him {X} you know and they never heard him say until they got here {X} And they didn't know you're supposed to tip ten percent much less fifteen
847:  No {NS}
Interviewer:  And you can tell it's formed right off cause they order the steak well done
847:  Right off
Interviewer:  Yeah and they'll take their cowboy hats off you know and I just go oh god when I get one of those another one {X}
847:  I I was in a place uh {NW} Oh one day last week {NS} {D: Until the countriest people came in there} They had You ever see people so filthy when they eat
Interviewer:  Oh yeah oh
847:  You know
Interviewer:  Gross
847:  The cracker wrappers
Interviewer:  It's like
847:  All over the table
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  You know cracker crumbs all over the table You know bits and pieces of lettuce all around the table {C:interviewer talking}
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  They were the nastiest bunch of people And they didn't tip anything they just kept the waitresses running back and forth well they Other reductions I don't {X}
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
847:  They were rough rowdy people in the first place
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  {NW} But they were those people were really gross so I said but I just don't understand {NW} Why people like this would even come now when they walk in a place It seems like the decor would rub off on them You know that was the you know
Interviewer:  Usually it does for most people
847:  And when you got something coming other ways people cut in front of you But it takes all kind {NW}
Interviewer:  Well I'll tell you they got steak now too
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Hey I'm going to ask you about farm stuff {NW}
847:  Yeah we we did we talk about the farm stuff last week
Interviewer:  Yeah we talked about some
847:  It wasn't last week it was Monday
Interviewer:  Seems like a week
847:  Yeah it sure does
Interviewer:  Um okay so our for we were talking about Talking about farm animals if I remember last uh {NS} Talking about pigs and chickens and geese and and your grandfather's rooster
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  With your grandfather
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  I told my husband
847:  The one he ate #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah # What what about uh oh you said everybody had a milk cow
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Um what would you call that place around the barn where people would let the cows and stuff walk around usually fenced in {NS}
847:  Cow pen
Interviewer:  Okay uh where do you milk the cow usually
847:  Use the next kind of barn
Interviewer:  Okay and now you grow cotton out in West Texas um
847:  Cotton and grain
Interviewer:  Yeah what do you know about growing cotton like seasonally what do you have to do you know do you remember
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Someone somebody else {X}
847:  Mm-hmm
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  {NW} In the West Texas they started planting cotton {NS} Oh I guess you'd say uh in late spring
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And {NS}
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  The crops You get a warm crop of cotton You know it was hard to get two crops of cotton a year Uh well they can get it out there I think Some places you can't get two crops of cotton {NW} But uh Harvest season for cotton in West Texas is usually Starts in October {NW} Uh after the harvest for the cotton October November And say early December Fore the uh uh first cold spell sets in All of us should be gone by then So you have about a three month jamming period {NW} Uh for cotton
Interviewer:  I remember that white stuff in the air
847:  Yeah the lint Yeah that lint from the cotton gins
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  All over the place
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Um in O'Donnell the smallest town was I remember there was so much cotton During cotton season that they had eight gins going
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  Twenty-four hours
Interviewer:  Wow
847:  That meant there were a lot of migrant workers that came in blacks browns {NW} All over the state I remember people used to come from Dallas Fort Worth all in this area go to West Texas Harvest cotton people used to get truck loads
Interviewer:  Where'd they live {X}
847:  Well Um Usually on the farm uh If it was a large farm Uh they had like uh What I call tenement rows You know and uh people were just stacked and packed in their Migrant work shacks uh very few people had Enough money to {X} And there were no such things as hotels and motels {NW} You know like there were no holiday inns and all that business
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 Right #
847:  You know you had uh There was one hotel in O'Donnell and there was a resident hotel where where most of the people who stayed in the hotel lived in O'Donnell And they served I remember that place they served Meals there you know like you get room and board And it was always full during the cotton picking season Well after December January February Even in March They started plowing the fields under You know to start the planting You know I think they had to plant plow first they went back and planted later
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Um Down here when I say down here In central Texas And south Texas Cotton crops usually came out During the summer And people uh {NS} Picked cotton Literally they picked the cotton out of the bowls
Interviewer:  By hand
847:  And yeah In West Texas What they call pulling bowls you pull the whole bowl off Reason why is they wanted to get the cotton in quick {X} Uh and it takes longer well of course theres {X} It takes you longer to fill up a sack If you picked the cotton than if you do if you pull it out of bowls
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
847:  Uh now why that happened like that I don't know
Interviewer:  Huh
847:  But picking and pulling You know {NS} Picking cotton and pulling cotton is different
Interviewer:  I didn't know that
847:  Yeah
Interviewer:  {X} Well did you ever do that
847:  Uh I seem to remember going for fields Once or twice Uh That wasn't uh {NS} {X} And I really didn't have to pick cotton I wanted to pick cotton {NS} Uh The reason why I didn't have to pick cotton you know why I didn't have to
Interviewer:  School kids
847:  Yeah my
Interviewer:  Yeah {NW}
847:  But I w- you know I- you know I
Interviewer:  Upper crust
847:  I wanted to pull cotton {NS} Because The other kids were doing it And it was sort of like Getting in to being with the people
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  They resented the fact that uh You know kids have funny ways of doing things {NW} They made it sound like it was real exciting pulling cotton well it wasn't exciting to me once I got out there
Interviewer:  Probably wasn't to them either
847:  {X} My salary I probably made fifteen cents for a whole day's work {NW} Very disgusting
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  After a few days of going out there I told my mom I couldn't go back {NW} And she wouldn't let me go back but it was a lot of fun My brother and I- I remember my brother was out there then and uh We would pack real big lunches you know great big sacks of food {NW} And eat all day long
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  You know
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  #1 And lay out #
Interviewer:  #2 That was # The fun part
847:  That was the fun part
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 The bad part was the #
847:  #2 So #
Interviewer:  Picking cotton
847:  Uh I remember this man his name was mister {B} A lot of kids seven eight nine kids And it was share cropping And his kids Did most of the work On the farm where he was share cropping
Interviewer:  Hmm
847:  And I just think he had a bunch of kids to keep them working so he could keep living well
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  But uh
Interviewer:  Probably did
847:  He told my mom That he didn't want my brother and I to come back out there anymore {NW} Because we kept his kids from working
Interviewer:  Oh
847:  He had a daughter I remember this girl her name was {X} She could pull a thousand pounds of cotton a day
Interviewer:  {NW} I've never heard of that fast
847:  Oh yeah {NW} He had one son his name was Joe Joe could pull up to fifteen hundred pounds of cotton a day
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  And you can think about how light cotton is
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And dragging a sack through a field and picking up fifteen hundred pounds of it That's a lot of work
Interviewer:  That is that's why
847:  That's almost going non-stop on your knees and that's your back bent {NW} And you're talking about Something that'll kill you
Interviewer:  That must be a strong kid
847:  Oh they have to be
Interviewer:  Either that or dead after a couple years
847:  And I used to wonder why that oldest boy looked so old when he was about seventeen or eighteen
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  He worked himself almost to death
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh tell me what kind of fences did you have on the farm now what kind you had
847:  Uh barbed wire
Interviewer:  How'd they make barbed wire fences
847:  Yeah I know but I can't tell you {NS} Uh I even know {NS} I did know the fellow who came up with the first barbed wire fence His name at least
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Uh Barbed wire was uh originally Thought of as a means of keeping cattle In a specified location {NW} You know that was the purpose of barbed wire And {NS} The wire was strung with Little barbs on the end and like uh The wire's twisted And like that You want to get that space In the wire These barbs put in and twisted And as they twist around You get the barb they'll come out and {NS}
Interviewer:  I hate when it stops in the middle of an interview lost an hour of tape {X} So you know if you look down there and it's not turning let me know I've got a lot of tape here
847:  Okay
Interviewer:  Um did you have fences around the houses like
847:  No there were usually uh {NS} Cedar post fence {NS} Uh {NS} Some people had uh The uh board fence When I say board fence It was uh Oh about six by eight six by ten boards
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Um And boards like that there was usually rich people who had fences like that but not many folk You know they could put up a fence A lot of big spread that way But that was usually just for show When you go out in the fields they always had barbed wire fences
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Uh of course around there uh like in a corral for horses Um {NS} {X}
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And then there were corrals also And a corral was always made with uh Post fence Uh And the reason why they didn't put {NS} Barbed wire I imagine around a corral was because they usually had some expensive Uh cattle either expensive horses in there And uh {NS} Horses Sometimes are very contiguous you know they'll kick down a fence
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  And they'll even run into a barbed wire fence and cut them all up and You know that uh You can't take them to markets like that the hides are never good
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  They look bad you know people like you know So uh
Interviewer:  Um is there a difference between a corral and a and a what you call it a
847:  A cow pen
Interviewer:  Yeah is there a difference or are they the same thing or
847:  Well a corral is usually larger. You can get like a have a herd You know I want to say a herd Ten fifteen twenty Head of cattle or horses in there You know uh And that was usually a place where they did keep that better stock in the corral
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  You know
Interviewer:  Um
847:  oh either you put them in a corral you can get 'em and take me to market
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm {NS} Oh yeah getting {X} {NW} Now um {NS} Did you ever hear anybody call cows come in from the pasture {NS}
847:  Mm-hmm
Interviewer:  How did they call the cows how did they what did they say to call a cow
847:  I don't remember {NW} Usually about feeding time As I remember there seems to have always been a lead cow Around and that cow had a bell around The neck {NW} And these other Cattle would follow You know you got them in that way Uh {NW} There were some people who had Dogs that were trained to go out and get the cattle
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
847:  And they get the bell I call them bell cow
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  You know the dog was trained you know like and {NS} You can lead a {NS} cattle anywhere they're real stupid animals You know
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  Yeah they're dumb
Interviewer:  Dumb
847:  They're real dumb
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  You know a dog and a bell could lead them over a cliff
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} I've seen people go out in in their pickup trucks and just honk the horn you know until the cows come out
847:  Yeah you know they get you know they're here They'll get used to certain sounds you know
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  Uh You blow a horn and you know that's right go in the pick up and just honk the horn And that bell cow would usually Head off and toward you know the horn And particularly you know like putting out salt And and hay in in the field they'd come to {NS}
Interviewer:  Um what about chickens you ever heard anybody call chickens
847:  Mm-hmm
Interviewer:  How do you call chickens
847:  {NS} No really
Interviewer:  Oh come on
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} I got to see everybody else do it
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  The only one who wouldn't call the chickens was a sixteen-year-old girl
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  You're saying {NS} See this is how you call the chickens {X}
speaker#4:  Okay {X}
847:  Okay You want to hear me call the chickens
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Here chick chick chick
Interviewer:  {NW}
847:  You know you're making people call the chicken
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  That's what
Interviewer:  {X}
847:  Do it
Interviewer:  Call the chickens chick chick chick chick
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  he's better at it you know
speaker#4:  I used to milk cows and sheep and everything else {X}
Interviewer:  Oh you better be next on my list
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} That's funny
847:  The the calling chickens is funny {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} That's going to be all over the office this morning
847:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} Okay let me so uh how do you call a {X} Uh well let's see {X} {NS} Oh I got well these are similar um what is what is that gentle noise that a cow makes during feeding time {NS} Now I didn't have a word for a lot of this stuff since I grew up with cows so if you don't have a word for this stuff
847:  I don't have a word for that one
Interviewer:  Okay uh a noise that's made by a calf when it's being weaned
847:  Don't have that one either
Interviewer:  Okay uh we didn't either uh {NS} See already did that one uh if you're going to feed the chickens and the turkeys and the geese and all that stuff do you have any one name for all of them like you say you're going to go out and feed the {NS}
847:  No I didn't know one name for all of them
Interviewer:  Okay uh oh how do you call a pig {NS} I wouldn't call pigs myself I'd ignore it
847:  Uh
Interviewer:  Some people call pigs
847:  Uh just like the razor backs do at the football game you know {NW} I can't do it now but it's sooie pig
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  You know
Interviewer:  That'll make it easier for you
847:  Yeah {NW}
Interviewer:  Uh let's see oh how would you call a horse {NS}
847:  Hmm {NS} I don't remember that one
Interviewer:  Um what would you say to a mule or a horse to make them go right or left like say on a team you know and you were pulling them over
847:  Uh Well To make 'em go right or left {NS} All you do is pull on the reign
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
847:  Right or left
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  But then Standard fare is giddy-up
Interviewer:  Okay alright #1 Right #
847:  #2 Like # You know
Interviewer:  You say that if they're already going or if they're stopped or
847:  If they're going and you want them to move faster
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  And they was fond of that you know a gentle kick or a slap in the butt or something {NW} And giddy-up
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  And they
Interviewer:  What did you say if you wanted them to stop
847:  Whoa
Interviewer:  Okay
847:  Whoa mule like my old man used to {NW} Used to use a mule to plow
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And uh I can remember him telling his mules whoa mule
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And those mules would not stop sometime he was a little bit of a skinny man The mules could go running off With his plow and him {NW}
Interviewer:  {X} {NS} Had a horse run off with me one time and uh galloping right and there wasn't anything I could do {X} and it was coming to the fence and the horse came up to the fence like right then it made a ninety degree turn {NW} Because I didn't turn I went on
847:  You went the other way
Interviewer:  I went I hit the fence and then I fell in what was probably the only cactus patch in the county oh
847:  I bet you that hurt didn't it
Interviewer:  Oh oh I can still remember how it felt pulling out my feet {NW}
847:  That was the only reason why I was always scared of horses Is because {NS} {NS} I know people that horses ran away with
Interviewer:  Yeah
847:  And you can't get off the darn thing you're too scared to jump off
Interviewer:  That's right yeah I considered it I never considered anything but I think I can just jump off you know and I looked down at how fast the ground was going by and I went no
847:  Not for me I don't like horses I {NS} I still don't like them I was frightened of a horse when I was a kid
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
847:  And I've never been on a horse again
Interviewer:  What happened
847:  You know like he trotted off with me Didn't go that fast but it was just enough for me to know {NW} And I can rem- That horse looked like he was twelve feet tall you know as a little kid {NS} looking up at the horse and the fellow putting me up on it {X} End of tape
678:  {NS} {NS} You know like he could whistle and the horse would come back
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
678:  And he did come back but it scared me so Because I knew I couldn't have done anything had the horse kept going.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
678:  And the horse could have gone a hundred miles. {X} #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # {X} Out in west Texas
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {X} Or it could be worse {NW}
678:  {NW} I decided horses were not for me and I haven't been on one since then my whole life.
Interviewer:  Yeah {NS} Well let's see what would you use to carry water what do you call that thing you use to carry water in?
678:  A bucket.
Interviewer:  Okay what would it be made of particularly
678:  Uh galvanized steel.
Interviewer:  Okay uh if a bucket was made out of plastic would you call it the same thing?
678:  I probably wouldn't now I'd probably call it a plastic pail.
Interviewer:  That's interesting before when you were a kid would you have called it a bucket or what?
678:  {NW} I would have called it a bucket. I picked up pail somewhere along in high school I believe.
Interviewer:  Well now finish your
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah I don't really use pail much I use it for something I can't think of what it is I guess if it's plastic but not if it's you know not if it's a bucket
678:  No then it's just a bucket. #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # A bucket is a bucket
678:  Yeah a bucket's a bucket.
Interviewer:  Um
678:  And then you always had your water dipper. Had to have a dipper. {NS} That was the thing you drank the water out of.
Interviewer:  Like what a lot of people drink?
678:  {X} And it was the dipper was usually made out of uh {NS} a granite type uh.
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  {X}
Interviewer:  Heavy
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah uh-huh.
678:  But you know it's metal and actually it's the same principle as the bath tubs are made out of you know you might you got your glass coat.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And the {NW} And the granite was a like And you know they used to make granite pots a lot.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And always what would happen with granite pots was that they would chip on the inside. And particularly you know like you dropped or hit it real hard with a spoon or something. {NS} And while you were cooking in them they had a tendency well the heat would expand the metal. And it'd keep cracking and then you end up getting granite all in your {NS} Food sometimes.
Interviewer:  Ew yuck
678:  That's what I remember bad the about granite pots.
Interviewer:  Yeah I guess so well what other kind of cooking utensils do you remember {X}
678:  Well there was the The kettle {NS} Kettles they're making now not like they used to be all the kettles I remember as a kid were made of cast iron.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  How big was it
678:  Big old things. It'd hold about three or four quarts of water far as I remember.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Uh that's almost a half gallon in it.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  {NS} Maybe about that big.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  It'd hold a lot of water. And everybody had a big black skillet.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Yeah cast iron skillets they're always black and greasy
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  dirty looking.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And you know if you don't keep them greased they'll turn they'll rust.
Interviewer:  Yep
678:  Uh so
Interviewer:  Yeah I heard you're not supposed to wash them
678:  Well you have to wash them. #1 But then to keep to it #
Interviewer:  #2 I never knew # That
678:  Uh well the reason why most people'll wash them and you wash the grease out of them and put them in in the in the uh well you put them in the in the cabinet. {NW} And if you don't use the thing in due time in a couple of days it'll just start to rusting. And it'll take you forever almost to get the rust out of there. {NS}
Interviewer:  Sure
678:  So the key to it if you wash them is to grease it before you put it up.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm mm-hmm yes {NS} Hmm let's see {NS} Is there a difference between a skillet and a frying pan or are they the same thing?
678:  {NS} Well {NS} We made a distinction of skillet and a frying pan those serve the same purpose But then the skillet {NS} is usually to me was a {NS} about twelve inch skillet big black thing you know.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Cast iron. A frying pan {NS} was usually a lighter pan uh made out of thinner metal uh with So like a {X} Uh As I remember you know we'd fry bacon and stuff like that in those uh in the frying pans.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  But in the skillet you could well you could cook the skillet you know you can cook anything.
Interviewer:  Yeah oh yeah
678:  You know a bowl of milk
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Bread whatever you want to put in the s- #1 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 Skillet # {NW}
678:  Not in the frying pan. Frying pan was too thin.
Interviewer:  Okay okay um when you set the table tell me all the stuff that you put out on the table when you when you had the table set?
678:  {NW} That was always a big thing. {NS} Creamer sugar bowl. Salt pepper. Uh {NS} there was a jelly dish. {NS} Butter dish. Of course your knives forks spoons. Plates. Um we didn't use very many sauces though. {NS} You know like people put their bread on sauces
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Usually you put your bread on the plate with whatever you're eating.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
678:  Uh as like now go out and you get all these little serving dishes.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  I hate all those little dishes.
Interviewer:  How come
678:  You know but I think any.
Interviewer:  Cafeteria
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Dish for everything
678:  I think etiquette tells you that all your food is supposed to be separate. Now uh maybe it was Amy Vanderbilt that wrote that. But I don't think very much of it.
Interviewer:  All those dishes
678:  Yeah I don't I don't think very much of having all these little dishes thrown around me you know.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah yeah really #
678:  #2 Like that # Yeah
Interviewer:  Besides that you got to wash them all
678:  Yeah it's just I think it's a waste.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  What kind of bread did y'all have what different kinds {NS}
678:  Corn bread. Biscuits and light bread.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh did you uh get the light bread in the store or
678:  {NS} We always got light bread at the store I remember. Somebody making rolls homemade rolls. Uh they were very good.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Uh You don't find very many people making homemade rolls. #1 Anymore #
Interviewer:  #2 You don't # That's true.
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  They're hard to make they take forever
678:  Yeah but they were good. Store bought rolls taste nothing like those homemade rolls.
Interviewer:  No
678:  Uh I didn't start eating whole wheat bread and stuff until I got much older.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  As as a matter of fact {NW} rye bread French bread still don't sell well in a black neighborhood.
Interviewer:  Is that right? {X}
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  I hadn't started I hadn't saw stuff like whole wheat bread until I was probably in college
678:  Yeah you know so and that's the reason why people don't eat as very much of it now.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Can't
Interviewer:  Yeah um what different ways did they have different corn bread That you remember
678:  {NW} Well the best way was hot water corn bread.
Interviewer:  Which is what tell me about that
678:  Well hot water corn bread is where you make little {X} {NS} Little cake like things
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And drop them in hot in a skillet. Now that's what you cooked in a skillet. Hot water corn bread.
Interviewer:  Did you try to fry it
678:  Yeah fry it.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh and make them little what like little patty something
678:  Yeah we use a little something shaped like that.
Interviewer:  Like a rectangle or like a
678:  Well an oblong looking little thing
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  You know looking like a football or a flat football.
Interviewer:  Yeah okay. {NW}
678:  The round you know
Interviewer:  Was it it wasn't sweet was it
678:  Some people could make it sweet. Depends on that taste put a lot of sugar in it.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh some corn buckets. I remember my mother used to make best blueberry muffins.
Interviewer:  Mm
678:  Uh {NW} But the corn bread {NS} Uh Corn bread to me was always seemed like it was even baked in the oven in the skillet. Came out better.
Interviewer:  Oh well I see
678:  You know.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  In more recent years people started putting corn bread in pie pans and all that business.
Interviewer:  Yes
678:  With corn bread in my house {X} Was usually cooked in the skillet in the oven {NS} Uh but for hot water corn bread was very good And there's crackling bread. Which was always good. Well crackling bread {NW} you know you see your pork skins {X} and and you know. Well these things were actually an offshoot from the {NW} the cracklings. {NW} Uh cracklings were {NW} made from {NS} usually from the belly or probably a top pork you know. Close to the hide perhaps the hog had been shaved and all this you know take all the hair off of him. {NS} There's not very much you can do with that top layer of skin that's there you've got a lot of fat that's there.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Well this was cut down. {NW} And you'd come up with that it would be about that thick.
Interviewer:  About an inch
678:  Oh about an inch Inch and a half two inches thick sometimes.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  {NS} And what they would do is with {NS} cut it up into little squares and drop it. {NS} And like people will kill hogs that on the farm. {NS} They'd have a great big wash pot. You remember wash pots?
Interviewer:  We had them
678:  Fill it up with fat. {NW} And it was usually animal fat you know. Animal vegetable fats back then.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And you'd fry these things. And what would happen A lot of grease would come from it so that's how they got their grease {NS} Cooking oil from it
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
678:  Uh then what some of them would do with that grease is instead of using it for cooking oil they would take the cracklings out and make rye soap.
Interviewer:  Huh
678:  Now the cracklings are very hard things but they're good you know the salted.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Uh if you got good teeth they're good.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  You know and if they're fried crisp enough you know they'll be real crunchy.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  But some of them you know just like trying to eat a nail.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  But if you bake it in bread in the corn bread. {NS} You can it's it's real {X}
Interviewer:  I bet it's good
678:  You know corn bread beans and greens but crackling bread is always a big deal.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Big deal.
Interviewer:  I've never had any of that but it sounds good
678:  {NS} I'll tell you what {NS} one of these days {NS} you give me a call oh you know like a Friday. {NS} And I'll cook you some crackling bread you and your husband can have some crackling bread.
Interviewer:  Fantastic.
678:  And you know you may like it.
Interviewer:  That would be fantastic I'll do it.
678:  Yeah you know like
Interviewer:  Love it
678:  You can put it in the refrigerator and keep it and heat it you know.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And get it it it it is really good
Interviewer:  Oh I would love that
678:  it's a matter of trying to find the cracklings then.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Occasionally
Interviewer:  I'll give you a little notice
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Find some cracklings
678:  {NW} They're hard to find you know I- I- I- know can I find them just a matter of knowing. Sometimes they come from Uh Cedar Springs have cracklings.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Uh but you usually cannot find it in stores in North Dallas it's #1 It's almost like looking #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh yeah #
678:  Almost looking for chitlins and hog maws out there.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Don't carry it.
Interviewer:  {NW} Okay now that you said chitlins tell me about chitlins
678:  Well {NS} What else can you say it's a hog's intestine.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  Have you had it is it good
678:  Chitlins?
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Had some the other day.
Interviewer:  How were they
678:  They're good.
Interviewer:  They're good? I've had some people tell me they're really good stuff and I've had some people say {NW}
678:  Well the people who don't like them it's psychological reason why they don't like it.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  It's sort of like eating a little butt part off a chicken back.
Interviewer:  Yeah right
678:  I can eat it. I know some people it turns their stomach.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Well you know
Interviewer:  {X} Throw it away
678:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  {NW} Chicken better.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Let's see I've got some more stuff later I want to ask you about oh yeah um did you ever see them butcher a hog?
678:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  What do they do? Explain the whole thing to me.
678:  Well {NS} The first hog I saw butchered was shot in the head. They shot the hog with a twenty-two.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Uh {NS} Then uh I remember going to the packing house where they would. {NS} It was this real gruesome thing. You know pigs would be you know as they come through this little chute. This fellow had a long knife you know and he was just. Just hit them right up under here you know. And pigs would just fall out.
Interviewer:  Ugh
678:  Oh I just
Interviewer:  Oh
678:  I couldn't even eat meat for a while after watching him butcher. You know if if I worked I know if I worked in a butcher shop or in a packing house I could not eat meat.
Interviewer:  I can understand that
678:  You know that is a re- It was just you know like {NS} I don't know how to say this. {NS} But if I work you know If I lived on a farm {NS} I could not kill the animals that I'd raise. I just couldn't do it. {NS} And also it's a good thing I'm not a farmer you know I- I- I just can't eat. You know you take a little piglet and raise it up to being a you know a gross hog and it's just the same as my grandfather {NW} eating his pet rooster.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And then you know but I just and honestly I could not eat meat for a while after watching the butcher. {NW} They would you know like {NS} people who had just few hogs you know. Three or four five or six or ten {NW} And then butcher them in the winter time this is a good time you know like. Uh this kind of weather is the best weather to butcher hogs.
Interviewer:  When it gets cold
678:  Yeah {NS} Keeps them from spoiling
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  You have to kill them while it's you know like in order to dress them and all that sort of thing if you kill them in the heat uh the meat will spoil real quick.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And people out there didn't have uh refrigeration. Uh after refrigeration so cold weather would keep the meat a long time I guess. {NW} But Shoot the hog either in the head in the head {NW} Or either just run a knife his long knife up under there in the throat. And then there was thing made like uh {NS} a pulley. Oh I guess it must have been eight feet high. And with a pulley and a wrench type thing. And he would tie a rope around the hog. And pull it up there and gut it you know like run his spine up take all this out.
Interviewer:  I bet blood was everywhere
678:  Blood everywhere.
Interviewer:  Oh gross
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  Bet it smelled bad too
678:  Horrible.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  {NW} Makes me sick to think about it.
Interviewer:  Sorry
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Go ahead
678:  And there was this big barrel I remember these people having a great big barrel. {NW} And they would put a lot of Firewood just you know well any kind of wood. And get this water boiling hot and then lower the animal off into the hot water. And this was to Uh {NS} I guess make the skin tender or something. {NW} That way they would scrape the hair off better.
Interviewer:  Oh uh-huh
678:  {NW} The hair came off better after the after the pig had been boiled in the hot water
Interviewer:  Okay
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Then what
678:  Then they'd scrape the hair off {NS} Then they would take the entire you know they would gut the pig.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Uh take all the intestines out you know and everything Get the liver Uh heart out. And there were people who even ate the heads. Uh {NS} The actual stores you can go in now you you know like I don't know why Mexicans eat a lot of hog heads {NS}
Interviewer:  Just just
678:  Yeah they cook the whole head you know black people don't do that anymore that I know of {NW} You know
Interviewer:  The whole head and then what do they do with it they can't eat like that there's not enough meat in there
678:  Yes they do {NS} See poor people learn to eat everything on the hog except the hair and the hooves. And there's nothing that's thrown away. {NW} Even brains and all that business. {NS} You know. And {NS} I don't like brains {NS} Pigs pork ought to eat brains I don't eat them I just
Interviewer:  I can't have any it looks too gross
678:  It looks gross really gross. But you know going on the market and seeing a whole hog head {NW} Staring {NW}
Interviewer:  Yeah really.
678:  That's almost as that's almost as eating eating opossum You ever eaten opossum?
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Now my brother my youngest brother you wouldn't believe that he was born and raised in the city. I don't know why he picked his country ways out from him.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Funny thing happened a few years ago. He knows every time I show up I'm going to eat because he's an excellent cook. {NW} But this friend of his {NS} Handed him a bake of opossum {X} Grossest looking little rat you have
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  seen.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  I could never take a possum
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  Twice on the road you know that's
678:  #1 {X} #
Interviewer:  #2 Okay #
678:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 {NW} # I don't think I want to see one in the baking pan sort of like eating {X}
678:  He hid this thing from me {NS} Because he just knew {X} We was going to eat some possum {NW} I had a friend of mine with me brought him from New York he's never eaten possum never seen a possum.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  And I kicked the pan my brother had hid it under the bed
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  And I said what are you doing with the pan on the bed he said don't bother that that doesn't belong to me. {NW} Like he was protecting the king's ransom.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  And he had possum and a big sweet potato all in the same pan. And there was this little thing with you know a possum looks like you know you ever seen a buck tooth person.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Cheeks stick out
Interviewer:  Yeah {NW}
678:  Now he's a little gross looking little
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
678:  #2 Teeth #
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Hanging out of this little bitty ugly thing.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  And he convinced me to eat some possum you know
Interviewer:  Well how was it?
678:  It tastes good but I just could not eat it comfortably.
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 That #
678:  #2 Uh #
Interviewer:  Is so funny
678:  Now {NS} Uh They even set opossum traps. {NW} Um {NS} I know people eat coons.
Interviewer:  Yeah I've heard I never had any of that either have you had it
678:  I hate to admit it but I've eaten coon too.
Interviewer:  How was that?
678:  {NS} It was an experience.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  What sort
678:  I don't remember how it tastes so psychologi- {X} Just I must have a mental block I don't even want to know how it taste.
Interviewer:  They're so cute
678:  Yeah they are cute.
Interviewer:  Little little cute little eyes little ears sticking up.
678:  There's a man there's a man over Oak Cliff Call him coon man. He raises coons to sell people to eat and I just I just couldn't believe anybody in the city was raising coons.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And he's got a thriving business over there.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  My brother took me by there to pick up coon with him
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  And he was
Interviewer:  You take that lobster I'll take that
678:  He says a lot of coon s-
Interviewer:  #1 {NW} #
678:  #2 {NW} # I just didn't believe it
Interviewer:  Where is this place #1 We need to #
678:  #2 At # Uh I don't know the name of the street Somewhere in Oak Cliff
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  But you'll have to meet my brother. He weighs a ton he weights at least three or four He he weighs over three hundred pounds. He drives a truck for Sears But I'll tell you that that man he eats armadillo. I remember my stepfather bringing
Interviewer:  That's something I couldn't eat
678:  Armadillo.
Interviewer:  Armadillo
678:  Bear meat.
Interviewer:  Yeah what about snake you ever had grass snake that's supposed to be good you know
678:  #1 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 I don't think # I'd eat that
678:  I've eaten snake one time.
Interviewer:  How was it?
678:  Tastes like chicken.
Interviewer:  What was the snake?
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  If I knew it was snake I would
678:  Well I didn't know it was snake when I ate it.
Interviewer:  Probably be the only way I could
678:  There was a lot of horse meat floating around one while or two
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  You know I was in Hawaii I had this friend who moved to Hawaii I went there to visit this fall and uh I went to a local bar with a Japanese girl okay Japanese girl takes me to a Japanese bar okay so we go in and we order some Japanese beer okay so we're sitting there drinking our beer and they bring us all this stuff you know and I didn't know what any of it was but it looked pretty good {X} There was one cup that I'm sure had to be fried fish that was pretty good you know and they bring in these chopsticks and you break the chopsticks apart and eat the stuff and there was one bowl that was full of cucumbers and what I thought was tomatoes it was red stuff {X} And so I was {X} Cucumbers were good and then I think they have more tomatoes they didn't and it wasn't even tomato it was raw fish
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  I could not believe it I went this is not a tomato and I managed to choke it down you know but I- I knew I could tell I put it in my mouth it was raw fish
678:  Oh
Interviewer:  Ugh I couldn't believe it that that was the last one I ate I did eat some more cucumbers.
678:  While I was down in Mexico I had some goat.
Interviewer:  How was it?
678:  {NS} I don't want any more.
Interviewer:  {NW} They say it's supposed to be real tough.
678:  It is it was tough. It wasn't seasoned. And it was cooked open fire.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Yeah you know {NS} Wasn't my cup of tea.
Interviewer:  No I don't think it'd be mine.
678:  No
Interviewer:  Um back to hogs they ever make anything out of hog blood?
678:  {NS} Yeah. {NS} But they don't do that here now In Louisiana there's a sausage called blood boudin.
Interviewer:  Blood what
678:  Blood boudin.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And these people take pig's blood. And let it congeal {NS} and they stuck it.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Yeah {X} Real gross in the mean time as a matter of fact it's against the law. To make it in Louisiana. It was I don't know if it still is You can't buy it it's against the law to sell it. They don't I don't think they can prevent people from making it.
Interviewer:  #1 Yeah #
678:  #2 And eating themselves #
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  But then I think in one time it was believed that the blood boudin was used in some sort of court rituals and so forth.
Interviewer:  Oh
678:  Uh {NW} They do have a uh Uh another boudin And it's {NS} It's a sausage it's a sausage that's cased in stuffed with rice and either pork or beef in it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. {NW}
678:  It's pretty good.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  But I don't {NS} I couldn't stomach that blood boudin as a matter of fact a fellow last year told me {NW} Uh he was an old cook from Louisiana. {NS} He was a Cajun. He told me how to make blood boudin. {NW} #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 How do you make it #
678:  {NW} Well you have to get fresh blood. And I've forgotten what he told me to put in it. {NW} And he let it set and you know how blood will gel. {NS} And {X} Another thickener you know sort of like a gelatin thickener put in there.
Interviewer:  Okay
678:  And let it set and it just it forms a mold right then. And just scoop it out and either mixed uh {NS} Uh might raw meat just cooked just a little bit. And you stuffed sausage casings with it and seasoning.
Interviewer:  Okay alright
678:  Yeah I don't.
Interviewer:  I uh want to avoid that
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  If I ever see any I won't eat it. {NW}
678:  Now you know like American sausage is a is a real is a uh is an art.
Interviewer:  Did your mother used to make sausage?
678:  Uh {NS} I remember my grandmother making sausage. I remember other people making sausage more than I do inside of my family.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh {NS} To make to make good sausage {NS} you have to have a good portion of lean meat. {NS} And the lean meat would usually come from {NS} The shaped portions right off the ham
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Uh {NS} Old areas where you get the pork chops from. Which is up around close to the uh away from the rib area {NW} And trimming away all you know like the fat and the uh lean portions of meat the ribs and things like that And {X} From the ham The shanks. The lower area And using Right amount of a Usually people hide a sage seasoning. {NS} Black pepper. {NS} Um Instead of using cayenne pepper they would use uh Crushed peppers after it dried. You know I'm thinking I'll make me some sausage one day I got the {X}
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  There's an Italian seasoning. Very spicy but very good if you ever want some good sausage. If you like Italian spices Italian sausage is very good. {NW} Uh {NS} And the people at good store places It's a matter of uh if they can smoke it Smoked pork sausage is very good. It's hard to find and it's very expensive.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm.
678:  Uh but then when people at the smoke houses. They can do that.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  And I don't still don't understand today how meat would keep like it did back then.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  You know no refrigeration. But in that smoke house that meat would stay.
Interviewer:  {NW} Yeah I know it did. I don't understand it either.
678:  Well you know I know what it was. Pack it down in salt. That's what it was.
Interviewer:  What does the salt do? I mean I know they do that.
678:  Well
Interviewer:  But I don't understand what it does.
678:  {NW} Let me explain that. Can't really you see uh uh {NS} That's how meat is cured meat is cured with salt. Salt tend it does something like cook the meat is what salt does.
Interviewer:  Oh.
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  As a matter of fact {NS} {NW} I could tell you the whole story it's not. It's not with me right now.
Interviewer:  Well
678:  Not with me right now.
Interviewer:  You could make it all up and fool me. {NW} Let me ask you about um I've got another major section here I need to get to um did y'all ever have a garden here in Dallas or in O'Donnell or
678:  Not in O'Donnell Yes we had a garden but it it wasn't our garden. Uh in Calvin where my grandmother was there was a garden.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And {NS} There was always okra {NS} Tomatoes squash Peas uh watermelon Watermelon will grow anywhere you can take a watermelon seed and throw it in the street it'll grow.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  I love it that's a good #1 quotable #
678:  #2 Yes #
Interviewer:  #1 Line #
678:  #2 {NW} # {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} I don't know when I'll use it I'm going to use that line. {NW}
678:  Cantaloupe
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Uh {NS} Eggplant
Interviewer:  You grew eggplant?
678:  Mm-hmm
Interviewer:  I never knew anybody grew eggplant
678:  Uh {NS} There was always a berry tree or something around Just growing wild.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh what kind of berries
678:  Uh blackberries
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Uh we had a fig tree About three or four plum trees Um Some people had pear trees And pears make the best darn preserves of any.
Interviewer:  Huh
678:  You ever had pear reserves?
Interviewer:  I don't recall
678:  We can't buy it at the store I've never seen it in
Interviewer:  #1 I've had peach #
678:  #2 A store #
Interviewer:  Preserves but I don't think I've ever had pear
678:  We had peach trees. Uh but pear preserves you can't I've never seen them sold in the store.
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  Uh if you want pear preserves you'll have to find some old person that knows how to do a can of them. There's a few young people that know how to do a can
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm. Uh What else did we have {NS} Corn {NS}
678:  Always had some corn I remember making scarecrows trying to scare
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  The birds away
Interviewer:  Corn is hard to grow I tried to grow it last year and it got it got some kind of crud I don't know corn crud.
678:  Yeah yeah.
Interviewer:  It just wiped it out.
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Good though for birds
678:  My brother had ten twelve foot okra stocks this year. {NW} In his backyard in Oak Cliff.
Interviewer:  Ten foot high okra stock
678:  That's right
Interviewer:  Incredible
678:  Really incredible That was just
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  Up as high as that. {NW}
Interviewer:  Sounds like it yeah {NW}
678:  He grows tomatoes okra and peppers. Green peppers.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Often and peppers will grow very easily too but I remember that pepper was so hot that it would parch your mouth
Interviewer:  Ooh
678:  I've had a pepper so hot that it swelled my lips.
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  You're getting me all inspired I think I'm starting to get into it
678:  It's really had a I had I had a pepper plant in here
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And Oh last year when I got sick It was often I didn't water my plant But I still had some Dried peppers at home {NW} And you know like you can dry you you. A pepper tree a pepper plant they reproduce five or six times a year.
Interviewer:  Hmm
678:  You can pull the peppers off of it
Interviewer:  I didn't know that
678:  Keep it at a you know like peppers have to be If you take care of them just keep them {NS} In a lighted area Take the sunlight {NS}
Interviewer:  Okay hey we're almost out of tape here
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Okay um where were we kind of dark
678:  {X}
Interviewer:  Oh the pepper plant
678:  The pepper plant
Interviewer:  Did you ever have a whole garden yourself
678:  Never had time
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  But I
Interviewer:  Takes a lot of time
678:  Takes a lot of time. But tomato plants they're easy to grow .
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh okra plants are easy to grow. You like okra.
Interviewer:  Yeah I had okra one time and it seemed like that year I left town for a while and I ignored the garden everything but the okra died everything died this okra was in there
678:  Yeah there's many {NS} That's the reason why I think my brother's plant Once it starts growing it'll just grow. Very durable plant. Hard to kill.
Interviewer:  And I had some little okra pot and I just left all year.
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  But about this time of year in the winter they were starting to rot
678:  Yeah #1 But the season is good #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} # Yeah yeah
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  {X} {NS} To the work I agree individually.
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Hmm well oh I know {X} What did your brother do to the soil does he have this little white did he stuff
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  {X} It's horrible
678:  Well but you know that black soil is very rich.
Interviewer:  Well it's rich but you can't get a shovel through it.
678:  Well big as he is he's probably going in and stomps the ground.
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  #1 {X} #
678:  #2 But # Usually what he does though {NS} Is he gets uh he told me what he did this year that's the reason why now He got some fertilizer.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And he spread that fertilizer. All over the area there where he was going to plant his garden
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  And then he watered the stuff down and raked it up. With a rake.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  You know and like the ground was moist and the fertilizer was all mixed in.
Interviewer:  Right
678:  And then he put some rows down. And he said it had phenomenal growth out of his uh tomatoes. I already told you about that uh okra plant.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 Yeah #
678:  They just grew everywhere.
Interviewer:  Huh that's great
678:  You know And but he used fertilizer
Interviewer:  Yeah I used let's see did I use yeah I used a commercial fertilizer once last year and I started out early spring put down a bunch of cow manure like before you know before planting seed put that down you know like a month or two before and then I got two rows and I was throwing stuff over there figured it won't hurt {NS} But that's how it kind of {X}
678:  Yeah I remember one year there was a A drought a long drought
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And The ground around me just cracked You know it was a real that was a real trip back then I- I remember that very well because water was rationed
Interviewer:  Oh yeah.
678:  And the ground the ground around the house {NW} Just cracked in great big holes {X}
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah how long did it have to be before you called it a drought
678:  I would imagine when you don't have any persistent form {NW} any precipitation
Interviewer:  For
678:  Three months like that.
Interviewer:  Okay if it was just if it was a shorter time than that what would you call it
678:  Well that would be a short drought.
Interviewer:  Okay
678:  But I but During this time I don't think we had an inch of rain No more than three inches of rain in about six months or something like
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  It was a real that was a real bad time.
Interviewer:  When you're facing
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  A drought yeah um
678:  As a matter of fact that year even white rock lake Was almost dry.
Interviewer:  Oh really
678:  That's right.
Interviewer:  I have never even heard of such never heard it that dry what about {X} Um what about beans you ever grow beans
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  What different kind of beans did you grow
678:  Well it was more peas more than beans.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Black eyed peas.
Interviewer:  Yeah oh I love #1 Black eyed #
678:  #2 Yeah # Very #1 Good #
Interviewer:  #2 Um # {X}
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  Always had those
678:  Then there's the uh what we called snap beans.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh what your green beans.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  Well great okay let me ask you about this next snap beans are what you used to call them but but they're the same thing as green beans
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Is that what you're saying
678:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Okay any other kind of bean?
678:  {NS} I know there was none of the pintos. Uh I just remember the black eyed peas. The uh what they call a {NS} There was a shell bean too blue shell. Know like they dry. You just Pull this thing apart. Uh
Interviewer:  I don't know what that would be well um
678:  They grow same same way as black eyed peas they look like black eyed peas.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh you had the
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  That was all that was all the beans I remember.
Interviewer:  Oh I know what other thing I was supposed to ask you
678:  Oh we had potatoes too.
Interviewer:  Oh mm-hmm
678:  Potatoes
Interviewer:  Um regular potatoes or
678:  Irish potatoes white potatoes
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
678:  They were very good they used to grow too. You can #1 Take #
Interviewer:  #2 Never # Tried never tried that take a lot of {X} You know
678:  No
Interviewer:  No maybe I'll try that
678:  Tell you what you can do. {NS} You can get maybe five or six potatoes. You can get ten if you want to {NW} and just let them sit there until they start to sprout when those little sprouts come up
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And cut them This cut little pieces like this.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And just drop it in the ground Set them by the {D: foot parlor} {NS}
Interviewer:  Huh I may try that I guess
678:  They're good
Interviewer:  Try potatoes
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Never tried it you know what I'd like to have are those little red ones you know those little red kind of round potatoes
678:  They'll grow you know you do them the same way yeah. Yeah
Interviewer:  Nice to eat you know
678:  Yeah we used to call those russets
Interviewer:  Russets uh-huh
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Let's see oh what kind of um different stuff
678:  We got sweet potatoes. {X}
Interviewer:  Did you grow sweet potatoes
678:  Yeah. {NS} Always had sweet potatoes. {NW}
Interviewer:  I love sweet potatoes. {D: potatoes at Thanksgiving}
678:  I actually you ever had fried sweet potatoes?
Interviewer:  No never had fried
678:  Fried sweet potatoes baked sweet potatoes.
Interviewer:  What did you slice them up
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  And fry them in just what bacon grease or something
678:  Mm-hmm.
Interviewer:  How thin did you slice it.
678:  About like that.
Interviewer:  About an inch
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Three quarters
678:  About like yeah. {NS}
Interviewer:  I have to try that I haven't tried that
678:  {NS} About a half inch.
Interviewer:  About a half inch. #1 {NW} #
678:  #2 {NW} # Yeah
Interviewer:  You know I have a let's see I've I've seen them mashed and uh steamed like you know you get one of your little feeder things you put at the top of the pot
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Slice it and you put it in there and it comes out real soft and you just put butter on it
678:  Ever tried a baked potato I mean baked sweet potato.
Interviewer:  Baked sweet potato I have never feels like my mother eats sweet potatoes I don't think I ever.
678:  Well just put them in an oven {NS} And grease them you know like you do uh.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Irish potato Uh
Interviewer:  I bet it takes forever to bake one
678:  Oh it normally takes to bake for a white potato forty-five minutes at four four fifty four twenty-five.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Ought to do it. And you just take them out and split like you do a baked potato. Put butter in it and you're talking about something good.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  They are good.
Interviewer:  Oh I love them I talked to a lady one time who said she makes them with uh like at at Thanksgiving when she when she makes them she mashes them up puts a bunch of butter in there you know and she puts beer in with it now I've never tried that she said it's real good
678:  {NS} Probably is got a lot of different ways that people might eat it.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm mm-hmm um oh what kind of things did you uh grow for greens what kind of different different kinds of greens?
678:  Turnip greens are probably the best greens to grow. There was collard greens. And mustards all those grew. {NW} But turnips were always seemed a little better.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm you like greens
678:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  What's your favorite
678:  I like turnips.
Interviewer:  I like turnips but I don't like the greens
678:  Well I like turnip greens. And I like turnips.
Interviewer:  But they're bitter aren't they aren't the greens bitter
678:  Not turnip greens.
Interviewer:  Maybe my mother didn't know how to cook
678:  Now.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  There are a couple of greens that are mustard greens are bitter.
Interviewer:  Oh that's the worst
678:  Mustard and collards.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Collards are tough Some people can cook them where they don't be tough and not bitter either.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh I know a lot of people that mix turnips and mustards and collards together and you come up with a you know different kind of green.
Interviewer:  Yeah I bet that's good good you know only if you like that sort of thing {NW} But I've had mustard greens and they were good never had collard greens had turnip greens and they were you know they were bitter too maybe just weren't picked right
678:  I have a friend of mine who uh picks turnip greens he always put uh sugar in them. {NS}
Interviewer:  Well that might help eating them
678:  Maybe that you know I of course I never course no matter what you put Uh sugar in the greens And mustard then {NS} She didn't have the same taste that you got.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Must have been different.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm maybe so
678:  So I was the person that grew up putting sugar in their greens
Interviewer:  Uh-huh smart well if I ever if I ever decide if I am ever so foolish as to decide to try greens again
678:  Well you like spinach.
Interviewer:  Yeah oh spinach is alright
678:  Yeah I I really like I like spinach boiled eggs and you know chipped bacon and spinach.
Interviewer:  Yeah that's good
678:  Wish I had some now.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah me too
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  I like spinach fresh
678:  Oh yeah I like fresh spinach.
Interviewer:  With uh like bacon crumbled on top you know and that's so good
678:  But I only started eating fresh spinach after I got grown.
Interviewer:  Yeah me too oh yeah that's right I don't think I ever had uh fresh spinach cooked even when I was a kid it was always canned spinach which isn't anywhere near as good and I didn't like it when I was a kid
678:  Oh I hated spinach when I was a kid {NS} and my sister started making you know fixing spinach with boiled eggs and the bacon.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Man I sure wish I had some little liver now too. {NS} Calf's liver and spinach.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  share with the big kid.
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  {NW} #1 We'll have to go somewhere and get something to eat #
678:  #2 {NW} #
Interviewer:  {NW} Continue
678:  Yeah that is one of my favorite foods and I haven't eaten it in a long time
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And you just made me think of it I
Interviewer:  Corn bread with it
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  That would be good
Interviewer:  That would be good wouldn't it?
678:  {X} {NS}
Interviewer:  {NW} Let's see what else can I ask oh yeah what do you call that stuff on the outside of corn that you have to pull off you know
678:  Oh we call it the corn shuck.
Interviewer:  Okay and what do you call that stuff fix you up a pot it had little white and yellow stuff.
678:  Oh that was some kind of hair we used to call that stuff. And I can't tell you the name of it I- I haven't used the word such in a long time I've forgotten what it is
Interviewer:  {X}
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  But you can't remember
678:  Corn silk.
Interviewer:  Huh u-huh
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  And you had to pull all that off
678:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  too.
678:  Yeah.
Interviewer:  Uh what all different kinds of nuts did you have when you were growing up?
678:  {NS} Peanuts.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Pecans. I thought it was the darndest thing when I heard pecans.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah oh gosh
678:  Now really
Interviewer:  I have heard people say that that's uh
678:  but you know like here in Dallas pecan trees just grow wild all over Dallas County.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh {NS} But Peanuts pecans Brazil nuts we used to call them nigger toes.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  You all called them nigger toes too
678:  Didn't know what else to call them.
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  That's funny {NW}
678:  After all you know well way we learned to talk.
Interviewer:  That's right
678:  #1 {NW} #
Interviewer:  #2 That's right #
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  I figured maybe y'all called them monkey toes or something
678:  {NW} No it's nigger toes {NW} And there was the walnut
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Walnuts were good too #1 Uh #
Interviewer:  #2 Okay # Well a walnut you know it drops off of trees got this green thing on the outside what do you call it it falls off
678:  I don't know what that thing is. I know I remember it's it's looked like a green thing that comes around the pecans.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh There was this other little fuzzy looking little nut {NS} You know The shell wasn't real hard almonds.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah #1 Yeah yeah yeah #
678:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah yeah
678:  Uh {NS} Just about all of the nuts I can think of that we have. Speaking of pecans I was going to ask you a tree question too what kind of trees grow around here wild you know except pecan trees? {NS} Uh There's a tree that I we call a hackberry tree
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  A chinaberry tree
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Uh {NS} There's a {NS} An oak tree around here that grows wild Is that an oak? It's an oak. {NS} Not very many met this oak tree here. {X} Any maple trees around
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  Maple trees were brought in you know Uh I remember sagebrush {NS} Mesquite trees
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
678:  Now y'all out In the urban Going toward D-F-W
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  There are so many mesquite trees out in that area.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  And it just surprised me because then you usually find mesquite trees in west Texas far west Texas.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Because I haven't seen a mesquite tree Back South Dallas County anywhere no no mesquite trees that I've really seen
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  but out there is just
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  You know
Interviewer:  I know
678:  just looks like you know hundreds of acres of mesquite trees.
Interviewer:  It looks like Wichita falls looks like my home town
678:  That's right that that is the strangest thing when I go out there
Interviewer:  Just sort of a big patch of them
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  I don't know why
678:  And people ask me why are you so fascinated about the trees. I say you just don't see that many mesquite trees in north Texas.
Interviewer:  Right
678:  Uh like out at cedar hill.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Well this is not really an area where cedar trees would grow.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  So my theory is that perhaps pioneers or something must have come through and planted some cedar trees. And the cedar uh Seeds might have blown all over that area because it just doesn't make sense. that just in one great big area of Dallas county there's a bunch of cedar trees.
Interviewer:  The only one
678:  Only one
Interviewer:  Uh-huh bet it smells good
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Oh a lovely smell {X} And there were cedar trees all over the place down there and uh especially at night oh it smelled so good and when it would rain and it smelled like cedar it would give people what they called cedar fever people with allergies.
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Horrible about this time of year I think people get cedar fever and you know {X} Something
678:  Well pine trees are pretty trees.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
678:  You don't see them around here close you go a hundred miles way down in Tyler.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  You know.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Pine tree country down there
Interviewer:  Our next door neighbor had a couple strong ones that he planted you know and during this like ice storm they were bent all the way over their heads very top of the trees touched the ground
678:  They didn't break with it.
Interviewer:  No they didn't break
678:  Pine trees are hard to bring down.
Interviewer:  Did y'all have any tree damage with the ice storm?
678:  Oh yeah yeah Lot of tree damage.
Interviewer:  Hmm my husband was standing out in the front yard and all I heard was it sounded like an explosion {NW} And he looked one of our neighbor's trees had just kind of exploded it split in like three places it just went {NW}
678:  Yeah that would be a strange. You know what's frightening about that whole thing Is you think about you know everybody wants to build their houses under trees.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Well that's very dangerous too. A tree fall on your house.
Interviewer:  Yeah sure ugh can't think of it.
678:  I know a fellow used to play uh one of S-M-U's greats basketball stars Jim Krebs a tree fell on him I've forgotten a tree fell and killed him.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Yes it happened a few years ago
Interviewer:  Gosh what so he walked by or
678:  It was the real freakiest thing I don't know if the tree fell on his car or something like that.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  You know.
Interviewer:  Ugh you know I was driving home this was in the car right {D: in the four lamps} I guess yeah and you know it depends um may have been the the {X} But anyway that night I was driving home and uh it was about this was about eight thirty or nine and uh it had been above freezing {X} But anyway it was above freezing all day that day you know and I didn't think about there being ice around and they had gone down below freezing this was in the hour and I didn't know it was below freezing and so I went through this uh puddle that was about a block from my house puddle had been there for weeks I just went through it and {X} {NS} Back end of the car totally turned to ice {X} Actually but coming up out of the puddle you know the the water
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Jeez I I didn't know it was there couldn't see it the back end of the car started coming out on {X} What's happening and then it it took me like half a block to do this it swung all around {X} Fish tail me around like this and I was up here wasn't nobody coming I ended up going the other way you know and finally
678:  #1 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 Stopped up # Against the curb and I just just well I shook all the home I thought for a minute I had a blow out or something but I didn't feel anything just dissolved everywhere
678:  Well you know that it's uh. They can catch you by surprise.
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
678:  #1 And #
Interviewer:  #2 Another # Car just pulling off you know
678:  Yeah you have to uh when it's cold like this anywhere that you might see a puddle of water you know . Almost now that's going to be thin sheet of ice now
Interviewer:  Now I know
678:  #1 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 Oh yeah # {NW}
678:  Very dangerous.
Interviewer:  Oh it is
678:  Uh
Interviewer:  {D: believe me I wouldn't stand a chance}
678:  Like
Interviewer:  Melt below freeze
678:  As an example {NS} when it thaws out you know from a freeze and the streets seem to be all clear and it's still freezing you know weather's still freezing {NW} you have to be very careful going you know under bridges {NS} or over bridges.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  You know.
Interviewer:  Right
678:  Uh and going through a tunnel because then it stays cool in there and it's still it's still frozen water. Sometimes And it's and it ices over
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  I've seen a lot of people have wrecks like that
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm yeah yeah well I was just lucky there wasn't anybody coming I have a couple major sections that we can get through here that I missed and that'll be it um let's see what's next um {X] ooh I still have something I want to ask you about um when I was interviewing {X} There was a section death and and disease stuff like that cheerful subject {NW} but what um when I was in San Antonio uh you know I was trying to find people to talk to and I had like here I had four white people four black people and I was trying to find a black minister because they told me that Reverend Jones would help me and sure enough all four of the people that I got all went to the same church but anyway I was trying to find
678:  #1 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 Where to go # Super helpful okay so they said go out there to the church and um he should be there so I went up there and there are all these people around and there seems to be some sort of celebration going on okay fine everybody looks happy they were uh about noon or not about one or two o clock I guess they were having seemed like a buffet lunch and a big spread and everybody's standing around on the lawn back of the church was serving plates talking laughing eating you know so I found Reverend Jones. {X} Introduce myself and uh he was very nice and I I was very nice I looked at him and I said hmm it look- looks like you're having a party what what kind of party is it and he said A funeral I was so embarrassed I could have died too.
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  You know so let me ask you about that is that customary with blacks or was that just weird for San Antonio or just that church what do you know about that
678:  Well eating {NS} Is sort of part of the ritual
Interviewer:  Yeah you do this in church usually or is that unusual.
678:  Not at church {NS} Um how big was this church
Interviewer:  It was small pretty small.
678:  Yeah well in small churches they'll do that. It could be that the person who has expired a place they had a lot of friends lot of relatives.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Um but that place would have been too small
Interviewer:  I've got to replace
678:  {NS} Hmm
Interviewer:  A short section of stupid stuff and then we'll be through pretty pretty uh not much left. You were talking about eating when there's a funeral.
678:  Yeah well you know like. {NS} I think what really. The reason why that came about was when you have a lot of relatives come in {NS} and people {NS} probably well you know there were no restaurants and that sort of thing a long time ago.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  And uh people have traveled miles. And it was sort of like uh family reunion at the wedding. I mean at the funeral.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  {NW}
Interviewer:  We should
678:  Uh {NS} And that's sort of a time that the family doesn't feel like cooking so what happens friends and you know distant relatives cook the great big dishes of food. Because they know there's going to be a lot of people there.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  And uh that's part of the fun of going to some funerals. Is after the funeral everybody gets around and eats.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  You know and like uh they reminisce about old times and {NW} what's been going on and uh what's they're going to do you know. {NW} And that's the only time a lot of people get together is at a funeral
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah my husband's family is off in Nashville Tennessee the only time that we've been there in the last I guess two or three years there was one wedding and three funerals. {X} To the funerals.
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Everybody everybody brings food over and after one of them everybody got smashed.
678:  {NS} Yeah
Interviewer:  {NW}
678:  That's always part of that too.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  I guess there's always some booze around.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  But you see now I'm trying to think about the family that had The uh I guess you might call it the feast after the funeral {NS} at the church. It was probably because the house that this person might have lived in was too small. {NW} And none of the relatives really had any place where to go {NW} and you know it was a matter of people getting together so they usually used they would use the church.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  #1 Yeah #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
678:  #1 Of course I remember #
Interviewer:  #2 {X} #
678:  When uh A friend of mine grandmother passed last year uh They had all the food around to the church after the funeral.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm mm-hmm
678:  Because and that was the situation with them.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Nobody had a house large enough {NS} to accommodate all their relatives and friends who were going to come back after the funeral.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah only certain
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Well um oh what what uh what diseases and stuff did you have when you were growing up?
678:  Hmm I had asthma
Interviewer:  Oh you did
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Huh well I had that still have it
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  But it's not real bad
678:  Uh {NS} I don't think that I didn't ever have chicken pox. I might have had the measles.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  I had the measles never had the mumps. No whooping cough. {NW} I just wasn't a I wasn't very sick. Other than with asthma.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah if you have asthma it's the same as having.
678:  {NW} Almost died with it though.
Interviewer:  Oh really?
678:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  What happened I've never had it that bad?
678:  I've known personally people to die.
Interviewer:  Oh really?
678:  {NS} That's when you have a real acute problem with asthma.
Interviewer:  Did you try to go to the hospital?
678:  No I walked to Bell Hospital I was so sick I couldn't breathe uh. And that was the last real bad attack I had.
Interviewer:  How long ago was that?
678:  Has to have been ten years ago.
Interviewer:  You walked?
678:  Oh yeah.
Interviewer:  To the hospital when you had asthma?
678:  I didn't have a car. Might have been longer than that twelve thirteen years ago. {NS} Buses weren't running. {NS} About five o clock in the morning. I couldn't get a cab. {NS} And I wasn't going to sit still and die.
Interviewer:  Yeah.
678:  I said if I die I'm going to die on a walk. {NW}
Interviewer:  Really?
678:  Not on a run I'm going to make it to the hospital.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  And I remember. That shot I coughed up. {NS} Stuff that was just golden yellow.
Interviewer:  Ew
678:  #1 You know #
Interviewer:  #2 Gross #
678:  It was just. {NW} And it had coated my lungs. You know but after I got a good shot it just broke all that stuff out.
Interviewer:  Yeah yeah
678:  Uh but I was really sick.
Interviewer:  You were okay after that? Mm-hmm
678:  I- I've had I've had you know light attacks shortness of breath.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  That's a little thing. But uh nothing as severe as that
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  My mother was an asthmatic also.
Interviewer:  Yeah they say it runs in the family my mother is too.
678:  And when I look {NS} my doctor bill here {NS} last year I went recurrent right serious otitis media out allergic basis. I was dealing with my ear.
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  {NS} He put a uh post myringotomy tube The granulation {NS} Occluding tube for nasal allergy {NS} And what he did then is when he put some cortisone {X}
Interviewer:  Oh yeah
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  Sounds fun
678:  {X} And nasal allergy And all these coming from sinus problems.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh uh-huh
678:  And uh I think that's as much as what I've had {NS} {NW} The seldom attacks attacks of asthma but I mean that was {X}
Interviewer:  Oh yeah #1 I do too #
678:  #2 Yeah #
Interviewer:  Because I mean well if they're not too bad at least you're not going to be overcharged
678:  Yeah
Interviewer:  After a while I've never had one bad enough yet so um if you get a cut on your hand you at the doctors you know you put the reddish brown stuff that stings like crazy and it's skull and cross bones on the bottle you know like what do you call that medicine stuff?
678:  Uh there was Merthiolate.
Interviewer:  Okay
678:  Mercurochrome.
Interviewer:  Yeah
678:  Iodine.
Interviewer:  Okay um you'd see when people would uh take a tonic for malaria or sometimes they'd take it in little capsules for a cold uh white bitter powder stuff what do you call that stuff do you even know what that stuff is I just know that?
678:  Hmm
Interviewer:  But that's I think that's before our time I'm not sure uh uh if people get old and their their joints are stiff and ache and stuff like that you'd say they've got what? {NS}
678:  Arthritis.
Interviewer:  Okay anything else you ever heard it called? {NS}
678:  Rheumatism.
Interviewer:  Okay and used to be children would get a real bad sore throat with blisters on the inside of their throat and they kind of died in the middle of the night with with a bad cough or you know they'd choke to death I think is what really happened
678:  Yeah {NS}
Interviewer:  What'd you call that what did you call that?
678:  Strep throat.
Interviewer:  Okay now I'd like two stupid things that we save for the very last because people will never sit comfortably if I get it first but these are numbers and pronunciation and stuff {X}
678:  Mm-hmm go ahead.
Interviewer:  Okay uh would you please slowly for me count just from one to twenty
678:  One to twenty?
Interviewer:  Mm-hmm
678:  Slowly.
Interviewer:  Yes just what I told you it was stupid.
678:  Yeah one two three {NS} Four Five Six Seven Eight Nine Ten Eleven Twelve Thirteen Fourteen Fifteen Sixteen Seventeen Eighteen Nineteen Twenty.
Interviewer:  Okay the number after twenty-six is
678:  Twenty-seven.
Interviewer:  Okay and after twenty-nine is
678:  {NS} Thirty.
Interviewer:  And after thirty-nine is
678:  Forty.
Interviewer:  And after ninety-nine
678:  One hundred.
Interviewer:  Okay and okay and here eleven people standing in line the last person in line is the eleventh person so the one in front of him would be the
678:  Hmm tenth person.
Interviewer:  Okay and the one in front of him would be the
678:  Ninth person.
Interviewer:  And then
678:  Eighth.
Interviewer:  Uh-huh
678:  Seventh Sixth Fifth Fourth Third Second you know first {X}
Interviewer:  Okay and see why we don't do that first uh the months of the year can you say the months of the year
678:  Hmm {NS} January February {NS} March April May June July August September October November December
Interviewer:  Okay the days of the week.
678:  Hmm Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
Interviewer:  Okay and that's it. how about that?
678:  Finish with a bang.
Interviewer:  Yeah and that's all the tape well we have some extra tape. {NS}