Samuel XXX Challenger Village Interview 14 July, 2002/16 July 2002, two sessions Transcription: First Session: 28 September, 2002-18 October, 2002, X 1-502 Second Session: 21 December, 2002 Lee XXX: (P: prompter) Samuel XXX (R: primary respondant) Rafold XXX (S: secondary respondant) Marty XXX (S2 secondary respondant) G(A): Grunt, affirmation G(N): Grunt, negation G(Q): Grunt, question, Is that right?; You don’t say G(V) Grunt, seeking verification. Say what? U(C): Utterance, cough U(F): Utterance, false start U(H): Utterance, hesitation U(I): Utterance, interruption U(L): Utterance, laughter U(M) Utterance muffled, inaudible. U(S) Utterance of surprise ( ) Deleted phoneme, word, or phrase P: What’s your name? R: Samuel XXX. P: OK. How do you spell your last name? R: X-X-X. P: OK. And how old are you? R: Eighty-seven. P: Eighty-seven. And where were you born? R: Right here in Challengers. P: Right in Challengers? R: Yes. P: OK. And did you do for a living most of your life? R: Well, when I started off, when I started on the estate. P: Yeah. R: Stone Fort, you know. P: G(A). R: Worked for some small money. S: U(L). Small children. R: The first money I know I get at Stone Fort is two shilling and six pence. P: G(A). Doing what? R: Well. P: What kind of work? R: Well, working around the estate. Yeah. P: I don’t understand. R: We do cleaning up. P: OK. R: Yeah.: P: Was that a company? R: Well, no, it was U(M). S: A sugar estate. P: It’s a sugar estate. Where is it? R: Right here. S: Right down here. P: Oh, I see. Then you worked for that estate. R: Yes. P: Your entire working life then. R: No. S: No, no, mon. R: No, I leave off that, and I went to go and trade with this man XXX. P: Yeah. R: Carpenter. P: OK. R: Philip. P: OK, where did you go? R: Right here. P: Stayed and worked right here. R: Stayed here, his own carpenter. S: His own carpenter work his father. P: OK. How old were you when you were doing that? R: About twenty years or so, S: Yeah, nineteen or twenty. R: About twenty. P: OK. You were about twenty. How long did you do that? R: I do that until I go away. P: U(A). R: I went to Curaçao in 1942, January, ninth of January, 1942. P: How long were you there? R: Sixteen years. P: In Curaçao? R: Yes. P: Well, he wouldn’t be a very good representative of Kittian speech. That’s the problem. I really got to talk to somebody who’s lived here all his life. But as long as we’re doing this.. S: Oh, it doesn’t make any difference. You know. He won’t. P: If he doesn’t mind. Can you tell me about your parents. R: My parents? P: Yeah. R: Was Ann XXX. P: G(A). R: And my father is Thaddeus XXX. P: G(A). And they are both natives of St. Kitts. R: Challengers here. P: Challengers. And how about your grandparents? R: Well, my grandparents, I only know me grandfather.. P: G(A). R: Only know my grandfather, my mother father. P: OK. R: XXX, the old one, I don’t know him. R: G(A). P: I see. OK. But he was from St. Kitts also. R: Yes. P: OK. When did you come back to St. Kitts? R: Well, I stayed out long enough as the war going, War Number Two. P: G(A). R: And so right down until war finished, I came back in Nineteen Fifty-Eight. P: Fifty-eight. R: Yeah, at the time they were modernizing the refinery. P: G(A) R: You know. P: Yah. R: And while we were working they didn’t discharge me, really... P: G(A). R: But they put a lot of work for one man to do. P: G(A). R: So I give up. P: G(A). R: Tell him about U(I). R: Then, go over to St. Kitts, yeah, yeah, manager, manager from Stone Fort UI).. S: Yeah: R: They bring in that, you know. S: Yes. R: Where we have people in the compressor house, they let them out, I work pump man. P: Yeah. R: They want me to do everything. I work fireman too U(L). P: Yeah. R: So I give up. P: I see. Are you married? R: Yes. P: Where’s she from. R: She from here too. P: She’s from St. Kitts R: Yes. P: How about her family? R: Well, her family. They are the old people, die out. P: Were they from St. Kitts also? R: They from St. Kitts. P: OK. How old is she? Is she younger than you? R: No, she younger than me. P: How old is she? R: She born, Nineteen, Nineteen Eighteen. I born Fifteen. P: Ok, What’s her name? R: Emma. P: Emma. OK What’s her family name before she was married. R: XXX. P: XXX? S: Oh, that’s where I am. S2 Excuse me there, man. [Man entering the porch, Marty XXX, Rafold’s brother] S:That’s where U(I) farm. They XXX now?. R: Yeah, yeah. Long before, long before. At the forest line P: G(A). R: Yeah. S: I didn’t realize that. R: Marty could take us up there, if you want. S2: You could ask me to fill it up.. S: I didn’t know. R: He could take us up. S: Yeah. P:U(F). You were in Curacao for about seventeen years or U(I). R: Sixteen. S: Sixteen years P: Sixteen years. Can you tell me how that community where you lived there differed from St. Kitts? What was it like. R: Well. Curaçao at that time was very quiet. P: Yeah. R: You don’t have to close your door. {: G(A). R: Curaçao people sleep with their door open. P: U(L). R: You look in and you see them there, you know? P: Yeah. R: Lie down and take a nap, you know. But not now. P: G(A). R: Down there, it change now. P: G(A). R: You have to shut up, everybody. S: But here it’s the same too. R: Yes. S: Here it the same too. R: Yes. We used to talk free here, home, nobody trouble you before. P: Yeah. R: But not now, not now. P: I see. Now, listen, could you tell me about the kinds of work you did really specific. Did you work with the cane? R: No, I didn’t work with the cane. P: You didn’t work with the cane; you just worked U(I) S: In the yard. P: In the yard? R: Yes. I worked donkey U(M), cook. You know P: Yeah. R: Bringing feed and putting it in there, Stone Fort. P: G(A). R: I leave and U(I) P: Did they have a regular U(I). S: No, his grandfather used to be my job, his grandfather. P: Is that right? And they had livestock there? S: Yes, plenty. R: Plenty. Goat, mule, cattle, horse. S: Horses P: Is that right? It was really a self-sustaining community. R: Yes. They didn’t have tractors.. No tractors. P: G(A). R: They didn’t have tractors. P: G(A). They had mules. R: Carts. And his father used to build the cart wheel. You saw them build cart wheel? P: But now what they do with those big machines that you showed me [to S]. Shucking machines? S2: He said he showed him some machines? P: Remember those machines? It had that big crane. Processing the sugar cane. S: Oh, by the siding. P: Right. S2:: See what happen before, when they used to take the sugar cane to the factory, you had men used to work on the siding P: G(A) S2 And they packed them by hand.. And take them to, but since they mechanicalize the thing, they’ve got grabs now. P: Yeah, that’s what I saw. That’s what we saw.. S2 But before that. P: They’d do it by hand. S2 It used to done by hand. P: Yeah. R: They everything done by man power before. Not now. P: Yeah. Do you remember what they called that part of the sugar cane that they throw away? R: It magasse. P: Yeah. R: Magasse. P: Magasse. Yeah, that’s a good dialect term. There are different names for that in different parts of the island. R: Yes. P: Really, but you can’t give me any specific things about the kinds of work you did. R: Yes. P: Tell me about some of the things you did. R: Well, here, as I tell you, I work donkey, I cook, carried food for the animals in the yard. P: G(A). R: And then I went to work with his father. P: As a carpenter, U(I) R: Yes. P: Did you spend more time as a carpenter or more time as a U(I)? R: More time as a carpenter S: Because our father had the cart wheels. By the time you had the animals in the U(I) P: I see. What did you do when you came back? R: When I came back I got and bus and went on the road. P: So you ran a bus. R: Yes. Bought a car and so I run both tourists and U(I). P: Oh, see. Around the whole island? R: Yes, yes from Sandy Point to town. . P: From Sandy Point to town. That’s interesting. R: Yes. P: What can you tell me about the kinds of wild animals do you have around here. R: We have mountain wolves; and we have monkeys. P: G(A). S2: U(I) P: That’s all right. S2 : Sometimes we have goats and things and you climb up in the mountain, P: Yeah, S2: And afterwards they abandon them, so they went wild. P: G(A). Goats, you mean? S2: But the goats are domesticated first. P: What about birds? R: Well, we have pigeon and doves and ground owl. P: What about pelicans? S2: Boobies. R: Oh, yes, boobies. G(A). S: Sea birds. P: .Sea birds. R: You see booby here now. P: G(A). R: They used to keep far from us. P: G(A). R: But now they come near. P: G(A). S: Right now. R: Booby come near. In town, I see booby right where the people selling the fish. P: Is that right. R: But long ago, booby didn’t come nearby. P: G(A). R: Monkeys come nearby. P: Do the monkeys come down now. U(L)? R: Yes. One come here already. P: Yes. R: One jump up on the wall. P: Yes. R: He went up in the garden and take a mango or two. P: I stayed at that Timothy’s [Beach resort], near Frigate Bay. S2: We got monkeys all over there. P:Every morning I’d get up and there’s a monkey sitting there. He’d come all the way down; sitting in the grass behind the motel. S2: The monkeys used to always to be around Frigate Bay. P: G(A). S2: Before they started building houses over there. P: And now they’ve spread out, G(Q). R: Yeah. P: OK. How about the kinds of trees St. Kitts has. See, this isn’t a test; what I’m really interested in is what you call them. What you call different.kinds of trees and diffeent kinds of animals. I’m not trying to get an inventory of all the animals. R: Oh, yes, well, the trees, some trees, really, some other place have a different name for them. P: OK. R: Kingfish because a tourist tell me that when they see a fish and they ask me. I tell him what we call them. S: U(I). P: Another thing I want to ask you about, do you remember when you were small, they’d tell jumby stories? R: Oh. Yes. Yes. The old people used to tell. P: Can you tell me any jumby stories? Do yo remember any of them. Tell me about jumbies. R: Yes, The old people used to fool you with that because they’d tell us that something they call ghost. P: G(A). R: That they’re bad. But then as I travel out I find out that they fool you with that. P: G(A). R: When I was away in Curaçao in the night we walk shipward, we hear bawling, we keep continue walking right down to the to the refinery and all And we don’t see nothing at all.. You know what I mean. P: G(A). R: They kill people; they can’t call the name that they kill. P: G(A). That happened in Curaçao? R: No, that happened here. Here, they used to fool me here and tell me the ghost was bad. P: G(A). R: When we young they tell me that. P: G(A). Did you ever hear of any good jumbies. Or are all jumbies bad? R: Yeah, all jumbies bad. P: Yeah. R: You can’t trouble them and all them otherwise. It isn’t true. P: OK. You never heard of good jumbies that came and did things for you? R: No. P: That helped you with your chores and things. R: No. P: Never heard of that. S: To be afraid of them. P: OK. But before you went to Curaçao you believed in them? R: Well, no, it’s when I went to Curaçao, now, I find out that they fool me and I study what they said. P: OK. R: One time they tell us that a man went to touch a crab. P: G(A). R: And when he, at one corner, a ghost by the other corner. P: G(A). R: I study it out and say but this ghost is as private [priv(it] as wind, he can’t run faster than the ghost. P: Yeah. R: They can’t fool you with that. P: OK. R: The man can’t outrun the ghost. The man can’t outrun the ghost. P: G(A). S2: Did you hear about Mark? R: Mark XXX? S2: Mark XXX. R: Oh yeah, a card planner! S: U(M). A planner, the jumbie he would run, some kind of jumbie.. R: Yes, but I believe that had these things. P: G(A). R: I had a friend in Old Road, he went to touch and he tell me he met a ghost. P: G(A). R: His wife she tell me this is true. She were there. S: Was a ghost? R: Well, she can, and Clara. S: Clara? Yes. R: He said, man, he give me like the whole and he try the stone and have the ghost. Frederick. S: Yes. R: Frederick the man, he said I don’t believe you. U(M). S2: But they used to say story about you touch crabs, you touch a jumbie crab. If you touch it, you put them in a bag sometime. R: And haul them down. S2: And you put them in a tin. P: Yeah S2: And you out a piece of wood at the top. And they put a heavy stone at the top. P: G(A), 156 S2: And you come in the morning and the crab’s there. P: G(A). S2: Crab’s gone. S; Jumbie crab, S2: Jumbie crab, can’t get out. P: Did it? S2: How could it the crab lift the lid? P: But it disappeared? S2: Yes. P: U(L). Someone came in and stole it. S2: No one steal it. P: OK. S2: Wait a second. Jumbie crab. S: No. you weight wooden top, U(M). R: It got out. S2: It disappeared. Jumbie crab. R: But I tell you, down by the river, here, we had a crab, we had a big tree right by the side of the river here, a cedar tree. Wasn’t here now. P: G(A). R: People used to go down (e)specially to see the crab come under the tree. And no one could avoid it. S: What he said? R: Nobody could avoid it. S2: Why. R: I remember Nathan XXX. He used to be the one for it. S: Yes. R: Nathan XXX. Your family too? S: Yes. R: He’s your family to Philip, I think. S: Yes. R: I think Nathan more than Philip, his sister, the manager here. P: Could he hold it? R: The old man, Philip. S: Yeah. P: A jumbie crab? R: Yeah. S: So this crab hold the tree and nobody can U(I). R: Either put stick on the back and get out. S: Yeah. R: Going up the tree. S: Yeah, but can’t hold it. R: Be gone with it. S: Yeah. R: That was a joke with the crab. S: Yeah. R: Man go and see that, especially in the night. People used to see things in the mountain S: Yeah. R: A light S: Like jack-o-lantern. S2 Jack-o-lantern. P: Yeah. R: A light you don’t see it no more. P: Yeah, S: Whoa, whoa, whoa, missing light you do here. U(M). R: Yeah. . S2: Since when? S: Where’s the beginning S: I don’t know. S: Me no know. But you see the jack-o-lantern across. R: You don’t see it no more. S: You can see a light in the mountain. And you move across and you see more and more and more and that’s a light. S: And we had no planes at all here. P: Is that the jack-o-lantern they’re talking about? R: Yes S2: Jack-o-lantern. S: Yes, jack-o-lantern. P: Is that what you call it? R: Yes. P: What do you call it? Say it. R: Jack-o-lantern. Yes. P: Jack-o-lanterns, these were lights in the mountains. R: Yes, going across the hills in the night..Yes. S: You don’t see now? What happened? R: No. S2: Not since we have the little cars and too much light. In those days, you never had the electric light in the street. P: That’s right. If you saw it now U(I). S: Wait. There would be be. S2: What? S: Ghost, jumbie. P: Jumbie. But if you saw it now, you’d think nothing of it because you’d think it was a car, right? S: But you don’t see them with cars. This would be up in the mountains. P: Yeah. S2: In the daytime, you can see the layout of the hills, and you can see this light here. P: G(A). S2: And you can see this light here, and then be light travel across the hills there. And only an airplane could travel along there because of the terrain. P: I see. S2: Do you see? P: Sure. S: And you see light appear over there, going across.. P: Sure. S2: U(F) And so what do you think? Some say jack-o-lanterns. P: And was a jack-o-lantern supposed to be like a jumbie? S2: Yes. R: Yes. P: Did you ever hear of anything called a Nancy, Nancy stories?\ S2: Well, we hear Nancy stories this morning. R: Oh, yes, sometimes you hear the old people talking. P: You don’t remember any of those? R: No. P: Another thing I wanted to ask you about, kinds of medical, things your mother might have prepared for sicknesses instead of going to a doctor. R: Oh, yes, there a lot of bushes that they know them well. P: Yeah. R: Yeah, they would go out and get them and that was all right. P: OK. What did she make with the stuff? R: Well, tea.. P: Tea. Do you remember what kind of bushes they were? R: Yes. I remember one time I couldn’t go off, and we go looking for it, and Mother went and get some bush and boil them and that was it. P: G(A). R: I can’t remember really, it was the white or the red, but it some castor seed bush that grow in the cane field. You have the red one and you have the white one. . P: Castor seed? How do you spell that. S2: C-A-S-T-O-R P: Oh, like the castor oil. R: Yes. But not the oil, It’s the bush. S2: Yes. P: Right. Person showed me that. R: Yes. P: Can you think of any others? S: Mint apple. R: Yeah, you got many other things. You got Mint apple. And one time I have janders.. You know what they call janders? P: Yeah, yeah, jaundice, yeah. R: I had janders in Curaçao P: Did you? R: And me mother things from the drugstore here for me, and that never take it. P: GA). R: A man who traveled to Santo Domingo. P: G(A). R: A old fellow. He went and bring some mint apple. P Mint apple? R: And that is the one that got me better. P: Is that right. And how did they prepare it? Did they grind it up? R: No, you boil the water and you make some tea. P: Oh, I see. R: Take a couple of mouthful in the morning P: Yeah, I guess tea. R: Early in the morning S: U(M). P: Yeah. R: It was bitter. S: Bitter. S2: Still have it. P: OK. R: We have it still. P: Yeah. R: And they said it good for fever too. S: And you have a strain neck. S2: But you find, a baby was sick, maybe we should go to the doctor. P: Right. S2: Somebody go to the mountain, get some bush, and boil them up. P: Sure. Right. S2: Leaves and roots and they know the combination for different ailments. P: But that’s true. But even in the city, you know, fifty years ago, my mother she’d would give me some cough medicine from the drugstore. She wouldn’t go to the doctor. Now, they take kids to the doctor every time they sniffle, you know. R: Oh, yes, U(F) now they don’t even know the same, today, I know it. P: Right, and they really worked, G(Q)? R: They had people in the village here they used to call doctor. P: That’s great. And it really worked, G(Q)? R: Yes. P: Can you think of any others? R: No. S: Lee, in every village had dentist, local dentist, every village. P: G(A). S: Every village had to do for themself. With ice. R: Yeah, ice. P: Tell me about the dentist. R: Used to pull teeth. S: Pull teeth, local dentist. R: Nothing to inject. P: G(A). R: Nothing to inject, you know. P: Just pull them out. R: Yes. P: Gee whiz. S: Every village had one. P: That must have been painful. S: You have to have courage. P: Yeah. S: You say courage, the word is courage. And there is a courage. You say courage, P: U(L). Courage G(Q)? S: Yeah, yeah. P: You have to have that. I can’t imagine that. S: Mr. Sams said it. U(M). R: Oh, yeah. S: He went dentist on the island. R: Yeah. S:He went to dentist. No doctor. P: G(A). S: The dentist. P: G(A). Another thing I’d like to ask you about, if you remember, tell me what kind of games you played, when you were a child. R: When I was a child I played all the games. I play card; I play domino; I play draught. P: G(A). R: I did not know U(M). I don’t know them thing now. S: Play round in a ring. R: Yeah. S: U(I). P: Did you play any line games or ring games with other kids? R: Yes. P: What did you call them? S: Marbles. R: Yes, pitch marble. S: Pitch marbles in a ring, ring game. R: Pitch marbles for catch or not. You know. S: Spin tops. P: G(A). What else? R: We play ball. P: Ball? S: Wind ball, yeah. Wind ball. P: Do you mean cricket or baseball? R: No, cricket. We never have no baseball. S: Cricket. P: U(F). Look, so when you say play ball you mean cricket. R: Yes. S: Yes. P: G(A). R: Yes, we play cricket; we play rounders. S: You know what U(I). Play wind ball. P: Play what? R: Rounders. P: Longers? R: Yes, rounders is something similar to baseball. P: Tell me what it’s like. R: We don’t have a bat, but we strike the ball with the fist. P: Strike the ball with your fist. R: Yes. And we have U(I). P: And you have four bases, a home plate. R: Yes, to run around. P: How do you spell longers? L-O-N-G S2: Rounders. R: Rounders. P: Rounders, oh, rounders, yeah. R: Yeah. S2: Rounders. Yea, you run around. P: Yeah, sure, rounders, and you play, how many men on a team? It doesn’t make any difference? R: Well, each side got equal men. P: Yeah, it doesn’t make any difference, I suppose, but you got first second and third base and then home plate. R: Yes. S2: And you have a captain. P: G(A). S2: In rounders, you have a captain. P: G(A). S2: And if you get out, U(F) say you got five on a team. P: Yeah. S2: And then a captain. R: And a captain. P: Yeah. S2: And you knock the ball and before you get to base, you get out. P: G(A). S: Then you’re out. R: Yes. P: G(A). S2: Then the captain go, and he go one full round. P: G(A). S2: Then he bring U(F) anyone back alive. .P: Oh, I see. S2: And the captain get out, and then the whole team is out. P: I see. But now rounders, I see, you call that playing ball, playing rounders. But do you call U(I).. R: No. S2: Rounders is different to playing ball. P: Playing ball is U(I). R: Cricket. P: Is cricket.. R: It’s a wind ball, a tennis ball. P: You play rounders with a wind ball. R: No, play rounders S2: Play cricket too with a wind ball too, wind ball cricket. S2: It’s a tennis ball. S: Lawn tennis ball. P: Lawn tennis, OK. But you play cricket. S2 With a hard ball. P: And you call that playing ball. R: Cricket. S: Cricket. S2 When you play cricket with a tennis ball, you call it wind ball. P: I see. OK. And how do you spell that. S2: Wind. P: W-I-N-D. S: Wind ball, yeah, but we don’t say wind. W-I-N-D, just win’ without a (d(. P: Yes, I see. You call it that because the ball is so light R: It’s a soft ball. P: Yeah R: Windball cricket. P:L Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at. So if you said to me you were playing ball when you were a kid, that could be windball cricket. R: Yes. P: Or it could be rounders. S2: No, no, no. Ball isn’t rounders. P: Rounders is never ball. S2: Rounders is rounders. R: Rounders. P: In rounders does somebody pitch the ball? R: Yes. P: And then you hit it with your fist. R: Yes. P: Does the guy throw it hard? R: What? P: Does the guy throw it hard? I don’t see how you could possibly hit it. S2: No, no. Just toss it to you, and you hit it. P: That’s a great idea to improve American baseball; we’ll take the bats away from those guys. R: Yeah. P: And see how many home runs they hit. U(L). R: Yeah, but if you hit the home run. P: G(A). R: The captain hit the home run and bring back all the men alive again. P: I see. I see. R: The captain get out; everybody out. P: When they’re out, they’re really out of the game. R: Yes. P: They are out of the game until the captain. S: U(M) P: U(F) I really would like to hear more about rounders. Can you describe the game anymore? S: You hit the ball. S2: Somebody throw out the ball. P: Yeah. S2: And you got somebody behind you. P: G(A). S2: Catches it. Let’s say you try, you’re batting then with your hand. P G(A). S2: And he catch it; you’re out. R: You’re out, yeah... P: Ok. S2: You see? P: And you’re really out of the game unless the captain. S2: Brings you back alive. I see. .P: Bring you back alive, G(A). I see. S: What happen, then you go, if you do not get to your base in time.. P: G(A). S2: Then you are out. P: I see. S2: And you go to on the side and you stay there. P: I see. S2: And sometime the captain don’t bat at all. P: G(A). S2: Until you finally want to bring him in to bat them in. P: How many outs do you get? R: If you get out, you can U(M). P: One team just keeps batting until all of its men are out? R: Yes. P: And so then the other team comes in and U(I). R: Yes. Yes, they score points. P: Yeah. R: You see, you go and hit a homerun; that’s one. And then the captain go and bring U(I). P: G(A). When does the other team get a chance to bat? R: When one team is out. P: When everybody’s out? R: Yeah. P: Then the other team’s up to bat. R: Sometime they play, if you’re in there long enough. P: Yeah. R: If there’s a game on the other side to going a way. P: I see. I was going to say, let’s say there are nine players.and your ninth player is the captain. The first eight guys are out and then the ninth player the captain, he’s out too. R: The game’s finished. P: The game’s finished. R: Yes, once the captain is out. If only one player is out, and the captain goes to bat. P: G(A). R: And he’s out; the whole teams out. P: G(A) And evn if they’d scored six runs. Let’s say they’ve scored six runs; let’s say they’ve had doubles and triples and homeruns, or whatever you call them, and the captain comes up and he’s out. R: Well, then the other team will try to beat your score. P: I see. OK. I got that. Cricket I’m not going to ask you about because that’s too complicated. For me, U(L) I don’t understand cricket. S: No? P: No, I really don’t. U(F) Tell me about the carnivals at St. Kitts, how they used to be. Do you remember when they started at St. Kitts? S: It was started in Fifty-seven. S2: It was Sport. R: No, we used to pay Sport in Christmas. S2: Called it Sport. P: Called it Sport. R: In season, not Carnival. P: Sport. R: They change it now to Carnival. P: They just played games, was that it? S2: No, it’s Bible stories. S: Bible stories. S2: Which they, like Samson and Delilah, David and Goliath. R: David and Goliath. P: G(A). R: The mummies. P: Oh, I see. R: Chinese here, knock the pole. P: G(A). R: The bull. Bull. Regimental. P: G(A). R: You know? We could go on and on. P: G(A). S: Nigger Business. R: Nigger Business. . P: What about the bull? S: What you going to do? P: What about the bull? What did he say about the bull? S: In the story. P: What story was that? S2: Somebody dresses as a bull. P: OK, S2: They used have R: They used to play John and the Money Lender, John and the Money Lender.. P: G(A). R: Yes. That was in a schoolbook. S: John was in there? Was that in a schoolbook? R: Yes, right in the schoolbook. P: So it was actually run like a pageant. R: Yes. P: Like a play. That was in the schoolbook. R: Yeah, they used to play, P: When did they quit doing that? When did they stop doing those? R: Well, I think the government put in to suit theirself that, you know, he take over. We never used to have to go up, you just go up to police station and leave to play in the roads like that, and you play and you collect money P: G(A) R: But you aren’t no more. P: G(A). R: Like the Sport used to come down and play round, U(M) you don’t have no more. P: G(A). S2 The changeover was in nineteen forty-seven. We had a general strike. P: G(A). S2 And Mr. Bradshaw at the time said U(I) S: Forty-eight. S2: Too many people. He said, instead of spending your money buying uniform to play Sport, keep your money because we’re going to have a strike. P: G(A) S: They were finishing up now. S2: For the strike, yeah, so they, from then on they didn’t them let perform that year. P: Oh, that’s interesting. S2: So that went out because they say that we look at it, the poor people, they’re the ones who entertaining. P: It would have to be later than forty-seven, wouldn’t it? Wouldn’t it be like because Bradshaw died in seventy U(I). S2: No, it was before he died. P: Yeah, but I mean. S2: Because he was leader of the Labor Party. R: Union. P: Was he? In the Forties? S: Yes. P: In the Forties? R: Yes S2: He said to the people, We’re going to have a strike the next day, but if you don’t get U(I). P: I see. S2: Because producers, the ones paying the people weren’t paying enough money. P: And then they changed the strike, they changed the fact that the carnival became a beauty pageant. S: A thirteen week strike. S2: Yeah, thirteen week strike. P: A beauty pageant. S2: So some day, all different, all villages serve different now. R: But it strange and here you have to go to all them troubles to get money. Didn’t have no union P: G(A). R: No union in Curaçao. And we used to get raise. P: G(A). S: Yeah? R: Yes. S: You get raise? R: If you want to see something, let a German put a wedge in their line. When the German put a wedge in their line U(M: traffic). Every time something happen, see, we were with the war. P: G(A). R: We get raise there in Curaçao. P: G(A). S: Is that right? R: Yeah. I leave from here with thirty-five cent hour. P: G(A). R: Yes. S: Thirty-five cents hour, you had? R: Yes. P: Is that what you were making when U(I) R: Yes. S: What what in Curaçao? What Curaçao. R:I have thirty-five cent I leave here and get in. S: Yes. R: And then we start to move up pretty well, start to move up. S: Oh, U(M). R: Yes, thirty-five cent. S: Yes. R: But still, we could live with the thirty-five cents at the time. But they eat good; everything was cheap. P: What other U(F) holidays and kinds of celebrations were there in St. Kitts, especially when you were younger? R: Well, in St. Kitts? P: Yeah. S: U(M). Horse race, we got it, with whip. R: Horse races, August Monday. S: August Monday. R: And we used to have Empire Day. P: OK, let’s say August Monday. What’s that? R: Horse race. S: Horse racing. R: That’s emancipation. S2: The first Monday of August is Emancipation Day. R: Slavery abolished, August.. P: Emancipation Day and that corresponds with St. Kitts, since when? Nineteen Eighty something? S2: We celebrate August Monday all the years. P: G(A). That’s been celebrated since you were a child? R: Yes. S: The first Monday in August. P: Oh, this, and that celebrates the end of slavery. That’s right. S2: Yes. P: Not the end of the plantocracy U(L). S2: No, they ain’t no problem. They never any problem. S: No, no no, no no. P: So August Monday is the first Monday in August. OK. R: That’s August Monday, emancipation. S: Horse racing. P: And that’s a national holiday and the whole island. R: Yes. P: Do they celebrate that in Nevis too? R: Yes, all over. P: All over the West Indies or just U(I). S2: All the West Indies. P: All over the West Indies, that’s interesting. R: Yes. P: OK. And what was the other one you mentioned? S: Easter. R: Empire Day. P: OK, what was Empire Day. S2: That’s the British Empire. R: Yeah. S2: The twenty-fourth of May, that’s Empire Day. The British call it Empire Day. R: That come from Queen Victoria. P: G(A). R: She had expand the British Empire. P: Yeah. R: Take a lot of land from all over. P: G(A). R: That come from Queen Victoria. P: I see. R: So we used to call it Victoria Day. P: Victoria Day as well as Empire Day. That was a day off; that was a holiday.. R: Yes. And they treat us. Going to school, you got a treat. P: When was that? What time of year was that? S: Twenty fourth of May R: Well, twenty. S: Twenty fourth of May. R: Twenty fourth of May, Empire Day, every year. P: G(A). S: If it fall on a Sunday, you get Monday. P: Like the Fourth of July, yeah. R: And we all sing Rule Britannia. S: Yes, in the room. Yeah, like Easter Monday, you go on picnic. R: Yeah P: Just go back and talk for a little bit about the sports. Did you ever participate in any of these? The sports, the carnival, you know, the pageant, when you dress up. R: Yeah. P: Tell me about one you were in. S: In the mummies? R: No. Goliath. S: Did David and Goliath. P: You did David and Goliath? R: Yeah. P: Tell me about it. Tell me about the kind of costume you wore S: It’s a Biblical story. R: Yes. P: G(A). R: We have to decide whether we are Philistine and, you know, the other side. P: G(A). S: They fight, they fight together, P: So, how many people were in it? R: Well, a lot of people. P: A lot of people. R: Yes, because there each side had a portion. P: Yeah. R: And David’s side had a portion. S: And Goliath used to have a big pole over his shoulder. R: And Goliath had a portion too, you know. P: Yeah R: And David, a youngster. P: Yeah. U(L) David was a little guy. R: Yes. Got him with a big sling. P: Got him with a sling shot. R: Got that Goliath in the eye. P: G(A). R: David go up and tell him, Behold, I fought, and Goliath can’t see him. P: G(A). R: Goliath calling, We can’t hear him, showing him a little boy. P: Yeah. S: Yeah. R: Yeah P: You just U(I) S: Show him what a little boy did. R: Yeah, if Goliath’s spearhead fall off, it would kill anyone of you. He was so heavy and big. P: G(A). R: The spearhead of Goliath. You got to get away from it. P: G(A). R: In the Bible. P: Right. R: Second Samuel, I think, S: Band them all together. Remember band together? R: Yes. The weight he coat, coat and all was so heavy.. P: G(A). R: A little stripling killed him. P: G(A). S: And that little thing kill him. David. R: David. P: And did you only perform this once? R: Once. S: Once a year. P: You performed it just once. And did you, did you do it the next year then? R: No, no, no. P: You did it just this one time. R: Yeah. P: Did you rehearse for it; did you practice before you did it? R: Yes. P: How long did you practice. R: The practice maybe about U(I). S: November. R: October or November. P: November or October, but this was after Christmas. R: In the night, practice in the night. P: And this was the week after Christmas, the Sport. R: Yes. S: No, it start Boxing Day, Boxing Day. R: After New Years. P: Yeah, Boxing Day, December twenty-sixth. R: After New years Day we came finish. P: G(A) S2: What happened with the Sport, they used to go in the island. P: G(A). S2: But you start here and you go play in every village. P: Oh. S2: You start here and you play in every village back to Basseterre. P: Oh, so you gave more than one performance. S2: More than one performance, yes. P: So you performed all around the island. S: And then New Year’s Day, they play Basseterre. P: G(A). S2: And then all the troupes would play around Basseterre. P: Oh, I see. R: Yes. P: Did they pick a champion then? Or the best? R: No, no. S: They aint pick a champion. No need for that. R: No need for that. P: That’s good. One other thing I wanted to ask you about. You told me about illnesses and medicines. Were there any people who cast spells to cure them of things. Like witches. R: No. We didn’t have that. P: Never had anything like that. R: No. P: U(F) What about spells. People cast spells on people to cure them of any illnesses. R: Well, I think that it happen, I hear something, I know that. P: Well, it happens. R: We have people here. P: Yeah. R: We had somebody here at a time spirits slapping them. P: Yeah. You know, in the States they have this laying on of hands. R: Yes. P: Put their hand on your forehead and you could walk, that sort of thing.. R: Yes, then one time when I drive the bus one time in Sandy Point, P: G(A). R: They had a fire burning by a house. S: Yeah, a fire. P: Had a fire? R: They said jumbie fire. S: I seen it too. P: Jumbie fire. R: I see it myself too, stopped the bus and I went to see,. P: OK, tell me about it. R: Yes. They tote all thing from the house. P: Yes. R: They carry all thing from the house that burning S2: Yeah R: Ya, the old stuff don’t burn. And that happen every day. P: You say U(I). S2: They say this happen, like somebody steal people’s things. P: Yeah. S2: And then somebody go and they have a jumby fire on you. P: G(A). S2: So when jumbie fire is only going to damage the thing you steal from me. P: Oh, I see. S2: So can have your clothes in here on a chair. P: G(A). S2: And the clothes catch fire, and the chair doesn’t burn. P: G(A). S2: Only the clothes will burn. P: So it’s only the U(I). R: I see that meself. P: You saw that? R: Yes, I went to see it. P: Tell me U(I).. R: Remember last year in Coneree. P: You were driving the bus? R: Yes. P: And you stopped the bus. R: Yes, because somebody in Sandy Point, from the village, lived down there, Camp Green Stand, said (Come down here and see jumby fire, man.( P: G(A). R: And he came by there. P: G(A). S: What did he do? U(I). R: Yeah. U(I). He come by John’s house. S: Yeah, John. R: The fire was burning. She leave Sandy Point and she come up in Old Road by her sister. S: Yeah. R: Fire burn there too. S: Yeah. P: So you got off the bus and went into the house?. R: Yes. I didn’t go in the house. I stayed in the yard. P: OK. R: I didn’t try no U(I). P: Was everything on fire or just certain pieces? R: I see fire. S: All the furniture burning. R: The furniture. P: Just the furniture. U(L) S2: Jumbie fire. S2: I know back in England they have spontaneous combustion. P: Right. There’s all kinds of things. R: Yeah, jumbie fire. P: There are all kinds of things we can’t figure out. That’s interesting. S: You know who start the fire? The priest The priest get the U(I) and the fire stop. R: U(L). R: U(I). P: I’d just like to ask you a little about Curaçao. What you did there, the kind of work you did there. R: I worked pump man. I first work as a laborer. I take the drums to the bay. P: G(A). R: The drum for shipment after they fill them. P: G(A). R: You know, after the fill them. It’s modernized now. Nobody has to take them. P: G(A). R: They go, two three roads; anybody carries them now. P: G(A). R: But we used to take these drums. I do that for about nine months. P: Drums of what? R: Oil. P: Of what? R: You know oil, gasoline, kerosene. P: OK, Right, right, Did they have pumps? Did they have derricks there? R: Yes. P: Refineries there. R: Yes. They have refinery. S1: they have refinery. R: Yes, Curaçao make all the different quality lubricating oil. P: Is that right. R: Which St. Croix don’t make that. P: I see. G(A). R: St. Croix make gasoline.. P: U(G). I see. R: But Curaçao make gasoline and lubricating oil. P: G(A). R: You know? Make soap too. P: Yeah, yeah, right. R: Make flit too, shelter, and so on. P: G(A). R: My department make that. P: G(A).When you started out you were moving the R: Drums to the bay. P: How? With a truck or with a ? R: No. We moved them; we pushed them. P: Just pushed them. R: One man had to push one to the bay. P: That’s hard work U(L). R: It was. Used to do it, and used to do it quick too. Sometimes they give us contract. P: G(A). R: Sometimes they give us contract. P: G(A). U(L). Oh, gee. R: Say you put two hundred and fifty drums down there. P: How far did you have to move them? R: Not too very far, maybe from here to where Mr. Wasabbi is down there. And where we put pull them. P: About fifty yards? R: Yeah, about that. We used to put them down and don’t quit.. P: Yeah. R: They give us contract and we do it all the time. P: Was it level ground? R: We had to run them down. P: Oh, it was downhill. R: Yeah We put one man down to stop them. P: OK. R: We shut them up and let them go. P: I see. R: That’s when we have contract. When we on contract we roll them down to reach them. P: G(A). You do that all day long? R: Yes. For nine months. P: You do that from morning until night. S: Yes. R: No. No. No. Eight hours. P: No, I mean you had no time off. An eight hour day, though, was. R: One good thing in Curaçao, when you go with a drum, wherever to are when the whistle blow, you stop. Wherever you be with the drum, you stop it there. Or they tell you, you work overtime. They don’t like that. When the whistle blow we stop. R: One time the man in the house make a mistake, and he blow the whistle and the whole refinery stop. P:Is that right. R: And the company charge the man for that. P: Gee whiz. R: Yes, sir, and the whole refinery stopped. They knew it wasn’t the time, but they stop. P: Well, what did you do after that? R: After that nine months, I become a stenciler. P: G(A). R: To mark up the. P: Oh, I see, to mark the drums? R: Yes. Yes. P: Was that marking them for shipment where they were going or. R: Yes. P: I see, like a postal. R: To Africa, all parts of the world. P: Is that right. R: Yes. P: Well, that was a lot better job, wasn’t it? R: Yes, because we sitting. P: U(L). Yeah, right. R: I once took about a man to get to try out and see. You mark it here; they mark it there and we try out and we go out and we drive home and we see. P: G(A). R: I go down in town, company sent me down to mark for the government. P: G(A). R: In the warehouse, government warehouse. P: Well, OK. I’m glad something R: Company have a machine what makes the stencil. P: G(A). R: Makes them. P: I see. U(F). Let me ask you, do you know any other people around here near Challenger who lived here all their lives, elderly people. R: Well, I don’t know. Nobody here. S: He’s the oldest. P: Well, that’s good. R: Yeah, my sister was the oldest. S: She older than you? R: Daisy older than me P: One other thing I’d like you to tell me about. Tell me as many different kinds of fish, local fish, fish Side B S: Garfish, sprat. P: Sprat? S: The small fish. R: Oh, well, I don’t eat the sprat, really, and ballyhoo. I don’t eat them. I used to, my mother eat them, but it seem to me as if she used to put the vegetable [gravel stew?] over them and she eat sprat. But not me, they got too small for me to eat. P: G(A). What kind of fish do you like to eat? R: Well, I like to eat a good big fish, mon. P: What kind? R: Fleshy, like maybe a snapper or anything you got. P: G(A) R: Yes. P: Is the grouper out here? R: Yes. P: Grouper. R: Yes, I catch grouper already. P: G(A). Do you fish very much? R: I used to fish. P: G(A). Well, what kind of fish did you catch besides grouper and snapper. R: We catch a little too. I make up a boat out of good trumpet, and we used to go with it and go a-fishing. P: G(A). R: G(A). I didn’t like to pay the government no taxes, see. P: G(A). R: So I make it out of wood. S: Well, no, if you got a proper boat, if you got a proper boat, you have to pay the island. R: Pay tax. P: G(A). R: With trumpet wood from the mountain. P: G (A). R: And then unsinkable. P: G(A). R: It couldn’t sink. It float. Water could pass through, in and out of it. P: That’s good. R: Yeah. S: U(L). The trumpet is like that. R: You know the one that Mr. Marshall used to tell, Mr. Philip, let me take you down and show that rose cartwheel. I saw the cart down there, the rose is the kind of wood. P: OK. Now one last thing and I will let you alone. Tell me about the bull in the pageant. S: The bull story? P: The bull story. Tell me about the bull story. S: Oh, the bull any way. R: Oh, you mean the people that play bull? P: Yeah. Now that isn’t from the Bible, is it? S: No, no, a local story, local story. P: A local story. R: Yes, playing bull, they have one bull with horn. P: Yeah. R: And then Arthur XXX, the captain and dog, and a doctor. P: So you have a bull, a doctor, and a dog. R: And a captain. P: And a captain. What do they do? S: They just play story, you know. R: Story. S: The estate manager, you know, Arthur Davis, had the bull and the bull took sick. And you calling in the veterinary doctor. R: Yeah. S: And the doctor had a knock-knee, what. Doctor had a knock-knee, so. P: G(A). S: The city man paid the doctor to help the estate. P: G(A). S: And he come in and have to give the doctor thing. P: G(A). S: And he give it medicine and so on. P: G(A). S: And then the bull revive hisself. P: G(A). S: The bull come out there, he come alive and start chasing the man. P: G(A). R: Running people up and down. S: Yes. P: G(A). R: People always find somebody, people let theirselves be horn , running up and down, the bull.. P: This was something that took place supposedly on a plantation? S: No. Down near Belmont. P: I see. S: Belmont R: Just a break in the road. S: Belmont Bull. R: You see, in the young days, they used to play up to Boyd’s, you know. They had boy from Boyd’s Village. S: Oh, yes. In Challenger? R: No, man, in Challenger. Neddy XXX father. He used to be the bull. They used to play. S: Inaudible R: Not in Challenger. Neddy over here. S: G(A). R: Neddy still alive in Curaco. S: Yeah? R: Yeah, used to be police here. S: Yeah? R: Yeah, he in St. Kitts. P: How did you happen to go to Curacao? Did somebody just say there was work there? R: Well, U(F) the war on, and I was thinking. You know? Well, in the old days, old days, old days in Nineteen Forty-One. I get the permit Nineteen Forty-One. I spent Christmas to watch bull and clown and bull and so on, and then I went away, ninth of January. P: G(A). R: Ninth of January to Curacao. P: G(A). R: I go to the company. P: G(A). R: And so I get permit from them to come. P: Oh, I see. P: I see. How did you know about the work? R: The work? P: Yeah, how did you know about the work. Was it advertised or something? R: No, nothing was advertised, but I had a family that went before. P: Oh, I see. R: I had a brother down there. P: I see. OK R: And he get his own. P: G(A). OK. R: And so he give me handling address, Green Ritter down the road. P: But then you had to get permission from where you were working to go, right? R: Yes, I get permission from the oil refinery. P: G(A). R: From the office, the company.. S2: Like it was here. You don’t have to get permission to leave here. R: No, no. S2: If you’re working here and you want to go away. R: U(I). No, no. S2: You leave and go. R: They would try to block people; they looking to block people at the time., when they ask them here. They say, well, St, Kitts, going. I understand the ask them. And say all them is old people. P: Sure. R: And you want him to go. P: The way these companys, businesses work in the States often is they get the workers in debt, and it’s like slavery. It doesn’t make any difference what your race is. If you work for that company, you borrow, they make you borrow money to live on when you start and you never get paid off. And you can’t leave because you owe them money. S2: U(M). P: Yeah. As long as you owe them money. That’s what I was wondering about. R: No, we. P: It didn’t work that way here, G(Q). R: When I worked three months for the company. P: Yeah. R: They come in and U(M) spending. P: G(A) R: And make me sign a contract. P: Yeah. R: To work with them U(M). P: Well, that’s good., that’s nice, if it’s set. R: Yes. P: And it’s not determined by economics, you know, that’s U(I). R: Yeah,.And then they send for my family too. P: That’s nice. R: Send for my family. P: OK, well, listen, what time do you have to get back Merchie? S: What time it is? P: It’s twelve thirty. S: Oh. P: Can we talk a little more? S: Yeah, U(M). Half one. P: Half hour? S: Half one o’clock. P: One thirty. You have to be back at one thirty. What does it take a half hour to get there. S: No, mon. It take me ten minutes. P: OK. I don’t need that much time, but I would like to talk with him a little more if you don’t mind. Is it OK with you. You don’t mind talking a little more? R: Oh, no, no no. P: U(F). Tell me about your other travels. You said you were in New York for a while. R: Yes. P: Tell me about that. Where did you live in New York? Why did you happen to go to New York? R: I had to go to New York because I have a brother there, sick in the hospital. P: G(A). R: Yeah, so I went to see him. P: G)A). R: Before he passed away.. P: I see. R: Six weeks, he pass away. After he pass away I come back. P: I see. Where was it in New York? R: U(F). Our Lady of Mercy. P: U(A). What borough? Do you remember what borough it was in? Was it Queens, the Bronx? R: Yeah. In the Bronx. P: OK. And in the Virgin Islands, R: In the Virgin Islands. S: St. Croix. R: I live Frederickshead, Lorraine. P: G(A). R: And I live. P: What kind of work did you do? R: In the Virgin Islands? P: G(A). R: Carpenter, construction. P: I see. What kind of buildings did you construct. R: Mon, we work on all the government building. P: What? R: We work on all the government building. P: Government building. S: U(M). R: The man I work with he don’t work for small people, you know.. P: G(A). R: He work for Hess, the refinery, work for Hess. P: Oh, Hess Oil. I know that. R: Yes. I work with U(M). P: Was that the oil company in Curacao, Hess? S: No. P: Was the refinery. R: Hess. P: In Curacao? R: No, not Hess, Shell. P: Shell, OK. R: Yes, I think that part of it the Englishman now share. P: G(A). R: I see some Englishman where they working on the ship with me. P: G(A). U(F) Can you tell me how he houses differ, like in three places. Take three places, like one of the places in the Virgin Islands, place in Curacao, and here. How the houses were different. R: Well, the houses in Curacao, at the time when I went there, were just like in St. Kitts. P: G(A). R: We had a lot of small houses in Curacao. P: Yeah, OK. R: You know? P: Yeah. R: But things modernize now. P: I see. R: Just as in St. Kitts. We modernize. P: OK. R: And we soon got everything modernize. P: OK. R: Just like that. But they were small. P: Yeah. R: Curacao was also small. Just the same. P: G(A). R:And nothing with them. Nobody tied them. U(M). P: Sure. OK. Another thing I’d like to ask you about the storms, the hurricanes. U(F). Can you tell me about a couple of them that you remember well, when they were,. R: We had a hurricane nineteen twenty-four. P: OK R: And we had one nineteen twenty-eight. That’s before they girl name. P: That’s before they had names. R: Yes. They didn’t have no names. P: They were just bad, G(Q). R: Yes. P: A lot of damage? R: I remember those two. They tipped the school over near Trinity. P: G(A). R: It’s twice now they let it fall. P: G(A). R: It fall went over at school as a youngster. That was nineteen twenty-eight. P: G(A). R: It fall again this last time with Hugo. P: How about Georges and Lennie? Was it Leonard? S: Lennie. P: Those weren’t too bad. R: Twenty-eight was bad, you know. P: Yeah. R: Twenty-eight was bad, really. P: G(A). R: But the young people don’t know it. P: Were there a lot of people killed? R: Yes. People killed by the school too. P: G(A). R: The school, Trinity. P: G(A). R: People killed by the school too. P: G(A). But there was no warning, was there? R: G(V). P: There was no warning. R: No. P: No warning. S: No there wasn’t. R: No equipment like now. P: Yeah, now they tell you exactly where it is. R: Maybe a police come from school board and tell you, used to tell you when the glass down.. Something like that. P: Yeah. Television. S: U(M). People out on St. John. They put people out on St. John. R: The hurricane take house and put them on the sea. P: Is that right. R: Out there floating, float away. P: G(A). R: I remember. I was a small boy. I didn’t know what it is, really. P: G(A). R: You know, when that strike, the old people, I was youngster. P: G(A). Then you were away. Weren’t there some other really bad hurricanes in the fifties and sixties? R: All them time, I away. They don’t come to Curacao. P: G(A). Right. R: No, they don’t come to Curacao. All I see down there. P: G(A). R: As the hurricane pass. P: G(A). R: The sea rises up a little high. P: Yeah. R: And the water just knock over the side walk.. P: G(A) R: They got Curacao water deep with saline, you know. P: G(A). R: If you sweep off the side walk, nobody see it. If a ship sink, they going to see no part of the ship P: G(A). R: If a ship done sink, you don’t see that, you know, you know. P: P(A). R: The water only come up high, by refinery, an entire G(M) ship, packed with everything. P: G(A). R: Because hurricane. P: G(A). R: But water only is a little high. P: G(A). R: Nothing. P: G(A). R: And Curacao is level. P: Yes, it is. Curacao is S: Dutch. P: Dutch. R: G(A). P: This Shell was a Dutch oil company. R: Yes. Shell is Dutch. You have like a Dutch from Holland working, but the Englishman too. P: G(A). R: I think they sharing it. P: G(A). R: In the wartime they got the refinery from England here. P: G(A). S2: Shell and BP was one company at one time. P: Oh. Is that right. S: U(M) got Shell and BP. S2: The Shell makes them BP. R: You never been to Curacao? P: No. R: You have a place for war ships. You can’t stand on the open sea and see them. P: Is that right. R: You don’t see no ships, no. P: Why? R: We had up to eighty-eight ship in wartime one time. P: G(A). R: Eighty-eight, right in Curacao. S: In water. R: Yes. Right up near land. S: U(M). R: Yes. You see them, you go up the street. They got dock them. They go piers. You couldn’t stay outside, the way the Germans tried to do. They tried to block them out when they going in down in town, you know. P: G(A). R: They launch torpedo and they run ashore, you know. But they had, they’re protected with something in the sea, a net, you know. P: The German U-boats, G(Q). R: Yes, they were active around Curacao.at that time. P: Is that right. R: Yes P: I’d never seen that. P: So all of the ships docked inland? R: All the ships docked here were tankers. Aircraft carrier. S: How any? R: They had a lot of soldier there going up American. They there for days, We walk the street; you could see them. They behind the gun, behind the big gun on the ship. P: And that’s all. R: And the day that they going out, you know, they start from early morning. P: G(A). R: We going to walk we see them going one by one. By the time that we finish with eight hours, that bridge still not come back and connect, ship still going out. S2: How does he get across.? R: G(V). S: How do you get across when the bridge was up. R: Oar boat. They got ferry boat. S2: Oh, ferry boats. R: To get from one side to the other. When that bridge would swing, those two ferry boat across, one side across each other. Now they have a overhead bridge. P: G(A). R: Yes. P: Going from Curacao? S2: No. R: Autrabanda and Punda. P: OK. I see. You have two islands. S2: No, same island. It’s a stream that come through the middle of the town. R: Yes. P: I see. S2: So to get from one half of the town to the other side, you punt. R: When you go to the land there, your boat itself, you see a big chunk of water between the land U(M). S: They have a floating bridge. R: Yeah, and a dry dock. too. P: I see. R: Any size of ship. P: G(A). How many people are there, would you say? R: I don’t know, really. P: Do you have any idea? R: I don’t know, really, how much, the population, I don’t know.. P: There isn’t any really big city there. R: Yes. It looking nice now. P: G(A). R: I went there about three years ago. P: G(A). R: Yes. S2: I was there in February. P: Is that right. R: Oh, you passed there. S2: Yeah. S: Oh, yeah, your boat went? S2: Yeah R: But you didn’t come off the ship. S2: Off the ship; she dock outside. R: G(A). S2: And that side is Punda. R: G(A). S2: The right hand side looking over the sea is Punda. Else is Autrabunda. R: Oh, yes. You’re right. Yes, everything on your right hand side, the governor lives and so on. And on that side, you have the fort with soldier inside. S: Yeah. S: U(M) R: U(M). The other day I went. We carried U(M). Yeah, mon, we had a wheelchair and we U(M). S: Yeah? R: In a wheelchair. S: Yeah? P: You went on vacation. R: Yes. P: How long did you go? How long did you stay? R: We stay a couple a day, about, about two weeks,. P: G(A). R: Yes. P: Can you fly directly to Curacao from St. Kitts or do you have to U(I).. R: Yeah, we fly. I fly from St. Kitts to Puerto Rico. P: San Juan, yeah. R: American Eagle U(M). P: G(A). S2: Used to be able to fly from here to Curacao. R: You go over St, Martin. S2: Used to be able to. P: G(A). S2: Ellan used to come here, but no more. R: Cut off now. P: G(A). R: It used to fly straight to St. Kitts. P: Well, I’m amazed at the number of flights they have to those little islands. You know, I was taking American Eagle out here, and every fifteen minutes there was a flight going. It was like a bus, you know, going to St. Thomas, going to Barbados, going to one after another. That’s very nice. That’s good. I did want to ask you about line games and ring games. Did you play any line games? S2: Oh, at nighttime, play the mongoose and bat him out the ring. R: They used to play that, but I didn’t. S2: U(M). P: Something with a mongoose. R: Yeah. S: U(M). R: U(M) S: Yes. S2: One game used to play. P: When you were Curacao, what did you do for entertainment? What did you do besides working? S: Girls, mon. R: I go sometime, like Sunday, I go matinee. I go church in morning, go matinee my way home. P: Yes. P: What do you call it? S: Matinee, cinema. P: Oh, the singing. S: No, cinema, afternoon cinema. P: Oh, matinee. OK. S: Matinees. M-A-T-I-N, double E. P: Of course, I call them matinees too. What kind of movies did you like. R: Well, I used to like to see cowboy. P: Yeah. R: U(M). P: Did he have any sporting events? Like ball or cricket. R: Oh, well, Curacao play like baseball and they play tennis. P: Yeah. R: The cricket is the English people that go there. They play. P: Yeah. R: From all these islands, they are team, they play cricket. P: G(A). S: We got cock-fighting. P: Cock-fighting too. Do you have cock-fighting in St. Kitts? S2: Used to. P: Cock-fighting. R: I believe they used to. S: But it’s illegal. P: G(A). R: St. Martin had a lot of that. P: Yeah. R: They do it without hiding. P: G(A). R: They do it in Curacao too. P: Yeah. R: Yeah, they don’t have to hide. P: Yeah. R: In Curacao you don’t have to hide. Someone used to ask me to go, but I wouldn’t go. P: Yeah. R: Yeah, a man from St. Maartins, nearby. P: G(A). S: A man told me U(M). R: People live Curacao and go all the way to St. Maartin to go fight cock. P: G(A). R: Yes. P: To fight them you mean? Take them over there to fight. R: Yes. P: How did they travel there? You certainly can’t take hens or roosters on an airplane, can you? S: Yes. P: Can you? S: Yes. P: I didn’t know that. S: Go fight there. P: Well, listen, I really appreciate this. This has been. End of first session 7/14/2002 Begin second session 7/16/2002 End second session 12/12/2002 First proof 8/31/2003 P: Is to count, count slowly, starting with one up to fourteen. R: Yeah, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen. P: Thank you. Now the number after nineteen. S: Twenty, R: Twenty, P: And the number after twenty-nine. R: Twenty-nine, that’s thirty. P: And the number after ninety-nine. R: Hundred. P: And after nine hundred and ninety-nine. R: Nine hundred and ninety-nine, a thousand. P: And the next big number up is a mil-. Nine hundred and ninety nine thousand would be a million. R: A million. P: A million, yeah. Now would you say the days of the week? R: OK. Sunday. Monday, Tuesday. P: Yeah. R: Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. P: Right. And now the months of the year. R: The months of the year is January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December, P: Great. Now the last thing is this. You can count one, two three, four, five. Or you can count first, second, you know. S: First, second, third. P: First of the month, second. S: First of the month, second of the month, third of the month, fourth of the month, fifth of the month, P: You don’t have to say the month. R: First. second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth. P: That’s it. That’s great. And that’s all. 1