Interview, 15 July, 2002 First transcript 15 June 2003 Sandy Point, St. Kitts (R) XXX, primary respondent (S) XXX, nephew, secondary respondent G(A): Grunt, affirmation G(N): Grunt, negation G(Q): Grunt, question, (Is that right?(; (You don(t say( G(V) Grunt, seeking verification. (Say what?( U(C): Utterance, cough U(F): Utterance, false start U(H): Utterance, hesitation U(I): Utterance, interruption U(L): Utterance, laughter U(M) Utterance muffled, inaudible. ( ) Deleted phoneme, word, or phrase R: Which one? P: Right where we are right now. R: U(H) Sandy Point P: OK. And is this neighborhood called anything? R: This? the Ghut Sandy Point . P: Yeah. R: This is Sandy Point, the Ghut. P: The Ghut, OK. And what(s your fullname? R: Oh, Lofton XXX P: OK, and how do you spell the first name? R: L-O-F-T-O-N. P: Lofton XXX, all right. And where(s your birthplace? R: Sandy Point. P All right. And how old are you? R: U(F) Seventy-six. P: Seventy-six. OK. And what was your occupation? Are you retired now? R: Yeah. P: What was your occupation? R: Fisherman, all the time. P: Fisherman, great because I want to ask you a lot of questions about fishing. How about school? R: How much school? P: Yeah. R: Well, in those days \ or <{e}> (lax upglide(>\ we used to go (to) school, we used to have a first, second, third form, fourth form, fifth form, sixth form (I). P: OK, and how far did you go? R: Fifth P: Fifth form. R: Yes. P: OK. What do most of your friends do? R: My friends? P: Yeah. R: Fishing too. P: Mostly were all fishermen, OK. R: G(A). P:Now where were your parents born? R: Born here in Sandy Point. P: Both of them? R: Yeah. P: OK. And what about their education? R: Education was (H) good enough. P: G(A). Just a little, few years, you think? R: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Both of them P: Could they read and write? R: Yeah, man , well, sure U(L). P: OK. What was your father(s occupation? R: He was a fisherman, he was a carpenter, he was a butcher. P: Really? R: Yeah. P: And were you married? R: Me?. P: Yeah. R: Yes, a little. P: Where was your wife born? R: Here, Sandy Point. P: G(A). And did she work? R: Well, she (is) in England now. P: She(s in England? R: G(A). P: What kind of work did she do? R: She used to work in (a) hotel. P: Oh, I see. OK. What was her name, her family name? R: She (was) name(d) Thelda XXX, but since she married , she Thelda XXX. P: What(s her first name? R: Thelda. P: How do you spell that? R: T-H-E-L-D-A. P: T-H-E-L R: D-A. P: D-A. R: Yeah. P: Thelda, and the U(I). R: XXX P: XXX and her maiden name was. R: Her middle name? P: Maiden name. R: Oh, XXX. P: How do you spell that? R: XXX P: XXX, oh, XXX, OK, fine. OK. That(s great. That(s all I wanted to ask you about your family. Have you been off the island much? R: Me? P: Yeah. R: No, not much. Since I came back from England, the only place I go is St. Eustatius. P: How long were you in the mainland? R: U(H). Seventeen years. But during that seventeen years I came back here about five or six times. P: U(A). I see. Where were you in the mainland? R: In England? P: Yeah. R: Old Apple Grove area. P: G(A). N: In London. P: In London. And you worked there for seventeen years? R: Yeah P: G(A) What years were that, do you remember? R: What? P:When you went to England and when you came back? R: Oh, yeah, fifty-eight. P: Fifty-eight. R: And I came back U(H) (in) seventy-five. P: Seventy-five, but you made, you said you came back here five or six times, to St. Kitts. R: Yes, between that time. P: Do you have any children. R: Yeah. P: How many. R: I have five by me wife and five outside when I came back. P: Oh, I see. OK. And what do they do? R: What (do) they do? P: What kind of work do they do? R: All kind(s) of work P: G(A). R: Could around laborer /inaud/. P: G(A). Did you do any other traveling besides to England? R: She? No. P: Did you say St. Eustatius? R: Only England, she be in same community. P: I see. Now I(d like to ask you a little bit about your childhood. Do you remember some of the games you used to play when you were a child?. What U(I). R: Yeah. P: Tell me about them. R: Well, we used to play cricket, all in the street here, all in the yard because we had a big enough yard. P: G(A). R: Then We go to the recreation ground and we play cricket both there. P: G(A). Is that regular cricket or UY(I). R: No. P:Windball cricket? P: Play with a tennis ball. R: Yeah, yeah that(s what they call it. P: A lawn tennis ball. R: Yeah, yeah. P: What about rounders? R: Well, I never used to play, the girls used to play rounder(s). N: The girls played. P: That was a girls( game? R: Yeah, them a girl(s) game. P: Is that right. OK. I didn(t know that. That(s interesting.. Did you ever play any line games or ring games when you were a child? Remember any of the games you used to play? R: Yeah, at nighttime when we, when the moonlight was out, P: U(A). R: We go (a)round and (a)round and sing, you know. P: U(A). R: Good time P: I see. OK. Do you remember the way any of those games were played? Do you remember the rules of the game? R: Well, U(L), yeah. P: Go ahead, tell me about it. R: Some, we had a ring. P: Yeah. R: And someone outside. P: G(A). R: And the one who outside come right so and the one he touch. P: G(A). R: And the one he touch he come out, and he take the place. P: I see. I see. Oh, I see. R: Yes. P: And then, did you ever play any line games, where you lined up? R: Line up? P: U(A). R: Of course. P: What were they called, those games called, remember? R: What they call it. Rock Start. P: And how was that played? R: Well, when you going to stand up on a rock, a little rock. P: U(A). R: And the man go around and he tell, he say something or the other. P: G(A). R: And if you can(t tell him, he come with a whip and he flog you. P: U(L). Oh, really. And what was that game called? R: Rock Start. P: Rock Start? R: Yeah. P: That(s good. Now, now I want to ask you about jumbies. I want you to tell me about the jumbies in Sandy Point. R: Yeah. P: Do you remember any jumby stories when you were growing up. R: U(L). No. P: Did they tell you jumby stories? Did your parents tell you jumby stories? R: No. All my parents used to tell me, I must come in a bit early. P: G(A). R: Otherwise, jumbie may hurt you. P: G(A). R: But, you know, they only said these words as a kid. P: Right. R: To make you come in earlier. P: G(A). R: I don(t believe in jumby because I used to walk late, since I grown up, used to walk late at night, all way, anywhere in town, anywhere you have to go. Lots of times dark at night. P: Lot of people believe in them, though, don(t they? Lot of people believe in them.. R: U(L). I think that the older people used to tell the kids about jumbie. P: G(A). U(L). R: But since a lot of them grow U(I). P: To keep them in line? R: They don(t believe in them much. P: G(A). To keep them in line, maybe. R: Yeah. P: And how about, did you ever hear of a jumbie fire? R: Jumbie fire? P: Yeah. R: Well, I heard people speak about it, but I haven(t seen none at all. P: G(A). Or a jumbie crab? R: Crab U(L). P: The black crab, did you ever see one of those? R: Well, no. I think crab, black one and I see a brown one, but U(I) P:Yeah R: Other friends of mine, they used to say (Oh, my, that crab is a jumbie crab.( P: U(L) R: But I didn(t take them on. P: You didn(t take them seriously, eh? R: No, no. P: OK, that(s good. Were there any, how about Nancy? Did they tell you any Nancy stories? R: Yes, mon, a lot. U(L). P: Tell me about that. R: A lot of Nancy story we used to speak, mon. P: G(A). R: I forget them now. U(L). P: G(A). R: Now and again they was in my thoughts now, but U(I) P: G(A). R: But I don(t have them now, forget them. Yeah used to talk nancy story. P: Can you think of one? R: Well, let me see. No, I don(t, no. None come up. P: Like a spider. R: Spider, no. P: Not a spider, G(Q). R: Do any, Carlton? S: No. U(L). He(ll interview someone tomorrow. P: U(L). Did you ever work in the cane, in the sugar? R: No. P: Never did that? R: Never did that. P: OK. R: Just fishing my life. P: OK. How about the kinds of roots and herbs they used to use for medicinal purposes. R: Yeah, they used to use something called lemon grass. P: G(A). R:And mint bush. P: G(A). R: Sosa [glass wort, samphire] bush. P: G(A) R: All kind of different bush. P: Can you tell me the kinds of things that would heal? What it was used for? R: Well, U(L), I got to go back and think on that, mon. P: G(A). R: But the bush that was very good was called, when we grow up we didn(t have much medication, no like so much tablets. P: G(A). Right. R: So our parents had to take what to use, bush. P: G(A). It was kind of like over-the-counter medicine that you buy at the drug store today. R: Yeah, now come buy at the drug store. P: Yeah, right, OK. S:: Have the worm grass, was very effective one. R: Yeah. The bush. P: Do you remember any ones that were particularly effective? What they were used for? R: U(H). N: Yeah, the worm grass for children. R: You have worm. Children used to have worm here, you know. P: G(A). They had worms, yeah, worms, Yeah. R: And you used the worm grass. P: Worm grass, I see. N: You just boil, like fresh leaf, like a cup of tea. R: And when you got a fever, you use something called water cress , so tamarind bush, and all kind of bush with to mix up together. P: I see, and then drink it as a tea? N: Yeah, yeah. P: G(A). N: Sosa bush make you sleep. R: And make you feel good, you know. P: Yeah. Yeah, I see. U(F) Were there people that practiced medicine who weren(t doctors? R: Practiced? P: G(A). R: Yeah, only one old woman she used to make her own, what do you call it? The oil, caster oil. P: Castor oil, from the caster plant. Yeah. 134 R: She used to come down the bay and look for caster leaves seed from the caster leaf, and she(d take them home, from the trees, U(Q), I don(t know what she(d do with them but she used to sell the caster oil that she(d make from the seed. P: G(A). Do you remember the woman in the neighborhood who(d help deliver babies? I forgot to ask this question of Mrs. XXX. R: U(L). I know some of them but they(re dead /inaud/ P: What did they call them? R: They call them midwife and U(I). P: How did they operate? Did they just U(I). R: Well, I think when you going to have the baby, somebody going to call them because they didn(t have the exact place like a hospital to stay in. P: Yeah. I see R: So they used to be at the home. P: G(A). R: So in the night when you-un got your baby, one family going to call up. P: G(A) R: And she come and P: G(A). R: But you don(t know because it could be a day. P: Yeah, but she(d stay there until the baby was born and assist in the U(I).. R: Yeah. N: Yeah. Until she deliver the baby. P: Yeah, OK. Assist in the birth. Yeah. Did you ever hear them called anything besides midwives? Did you ever hear them called grannywoman? R: No, just midwife. P: Never heard. Just midwife, OK. Now I want to ask you about the carnival at St. Kitts, how the carnival has changed over the past fifty years. R: Oh, my, mon, no. In my days we never had no carnival as yet. P: G(A). R: You see, but used to got a lot of Sport. P: Sport. R: Yeah P: Tell me about the sports. R: All kind of sport you could think about, man. Look when I was a kid, you hear? P: Yeah. R: And Christmas time, we all gone in the morning, go look at the sport then. P: G(A). R: And we aint coming back until afternoon late, you know, about six o(clock. P: G(A). R: Because, you know, six o(clock dark in those Christmas time. P: Sure. Right. R: So sometimes we don(t even come back home, come look for it. P: G(A). R: You know what mean? P: Yeah. R: The sport so nice to you that you enjoy every bit of it. P: G(A). R: Lot of sports, mon, one set to music and the next side up so you don(t know which one to play. P: Is that right? R: You see, you want to take, you want to take all at one time. P: I see. Did they come to Sandy Point? R: Yeah. P: They come. How many would there be? R: In Sandy Point? They used to got (a)bout six, seven, (a)lot in Sandy Point. P: Is that right? R: Yeah. P: And what kind of things did they do? Can you remember any of those? R: Oh, me, mon.. They got some children of Israel. P: G(A). R: One play cowboy, one play regimental force; one play red cross; some play bull; some P: G(A). R: All kind, mon, all kind. P: G(A) R: Goliath, David and Goliath, mummies, and all kind of thing. P: G(A). What was the mummies like? R: Oh, they used to got some big stick and they knock stick on; they knock stick, no, together. P: G(A). R: And they have the giant there with the long pole and they swing (a)round like that so you got to duck. P: Oh, I see. R: You got to duck, you see. P: I see. R: And these clown, you know, clown and bull. P: G(A). R: All those different, mon. P: G(A). R: Lovely things, mon. P: What kind of ball did they play? Was that windball cricket or U(I). R: Yeah, windball cricket. P: G(A). P: But rounders was played only by girls? R: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We used to go from one village to the other. P: Yeah. R: We go play a village over there, so when they come, they play us. P: G(A). I see. But these sports that were like David and Goliath, they(d go around the whole island U(I). R: Yeah, yeah. P: And perform. R: Yeah, all of them go (a) round the island. P: G(A). R: And who played (a)round they come all the way (a) round U(I). P: And stop at your place, I see. R: So every day the sport U(L) during the Christmas time.. P: G(A). R: Every day you(re looking at the sport. P: Right, right. Can you describe for me the dress of those people in the sport?. R: Yeah, well. P: Tell something about what they wore. R: Some of them wore red, red pants and red shoulders, and a lot of glasses to the back and glasses to the front. P: G(A). R: Well, the clown them used to wear those same thing too. P: G(A). R: But at this time they used to got whip in the hand. P: Yeah. R: A whip. P: G(A). R: And be cracking all the time. P: G(A) R: And the bull got used to got horn. P: Oh, yeah, tell me about the bull. R: U(L) P:U(L) Tell me about the bull. R: Used to have, used to dress in all red too, and he have the horn, eh? P: Yeah. R: And he had the tail here, mon, I like see. U(L). P: U(L). Yeah. R: I like see, which way he walk up with the tail, you see. P: U(L). N: There(s a young girl and start over there. R: Yeah, yeah. And the regimental who play the guard, they got a whip. Just good, mon. P: Yeah R: Yeah, lovely time. P: G(A). Did you ever participate U(I). R: /inaud/ that now, long way. P: Did you ever participate in any of that? R: No, no, no, no, no. P: Never? R: One time I was trying to play a cowboy with them, but after a while I just think about it and I say I(m not going to worry. P: G(A). R: And my mommy told me don(t worry meself. P: G(A). Not to worry about it, eh? Yeah. What kind of work did you do when you were in England? R: Factory work. P: OK. R: I work couple times when in factory. That(s all the work I dome. P: What kind work? R: Well, I work in a paper mill. P: G(A). R: And work in warehouse to varnish. P: G(A).. R: To varnish thing. P: G(A). R:And the last place I work to a place Expandite. They make a lot of /inaud/ thing there now in tube P: G(A). R: You see? P: I see. R: And a lot of beech um (?). You know what I mean? P: I(m not sure. R These big, they call them beech um, I think they(re for stick the road when the road crack. They stick. P: Oh, is it a paste kind of stuff, you mean, that mends the road?. R: Yeah, yeah, it(s very black and thick. P: Macadam? R: Yeah. P: Yeah, I see. R: All kind of things they could deal with. P: What were your jobs, specifically? What kind of tasks. R: U(F). I used to work in the warehouse P: G(A). R: Yeah. When they bring in the stuff U(I). P: Yeah R: We unload it. P: G(A). R: And when they(re going out, we load if. P: Yeah, right, yeah. R: The lorry take big stuff. P: G(A). And do inventories from time to time, I suppose. Had you been a fisherman before you went to England. R: Yeah, all me life. P: Yeah, I know, but wasn(t that pretty difficult for you, the factory work compared to being a fisherman? R: Well, no, because what happen my mind was make up because when go look at job on any side. Any thing I get, I took. P: G(A). R: Because I feel like anything ask me to do I could have done. P: G(A). R: You know when you(re young, you know, strong and /inaud/ P: Did you like England better than St. Kitts? R: U(L). No, I prefer St. Kitts. U(L) P:Yeah, G(A). G(A). R: Yeah, yeah. Even under the corner, you(re lonely there, mon, you(re too lonely P: Yeah.. R: You end up in St. Kitts that you(re corner, you walk up and down there, all day and night and sit down at the side road and enjoy the fresh breeze. P: G(A). R: Because too much of a heat up there. P: G(A). R: So when you breathe the air into. P: G(A). R: Too nice. P: But the work wasn(t pleasant? R: No, no. The work wasn(t that nice too. P: No, I imagine so. Well, now I(d like you to tell me about fishing. Just describe for a day, a typical day as a fisherman. R: Man, U(F) I used to have some lovely days, catch a lot of fish. P: What time did you get up, start? R: Sometime we go there about five o(clock P: U(A). P: And we come in around about ten in the morning. P: G(A). R: With a boatload of fish, P: G(A). What kind of boat did you have? R: Well, the boat is eighteen feet. P: Eighteen feet. R: Yeah. P: Fishing boat, eh. R: Yeah And we got some big fishing net; well, not like over there because we aint got no trawlers. P: G(A). R: We got different net. P: G(A). R: Out net finer. P: You need two boats or just one boat? R: Well, you go to the one boat. P: G(A) R: You see? With five of you in it. P: G(A). R: Or six of you because it(s a net and you want, man to pull it. P: G(A). R: Yeah. P: So everybody(s working the net? R: Yeah. P: G(A). Tell me about that. You just go along with the net in the water until U(I). R: Well, U(L). That(s a good question you ask. P: G(A). R: Now when go there, we take the trashes off of the cane, off of the sugar cane. P: OK, and what do you call that stuff? R: We call them trash. P: Or bagasse? Mugasse? R: No the sugar cane itself, the leaves them. P: Mugasse? R: G(V): No, no, no. N: The dry leave from the sugar cane. R The dry leaves from the sugar cane. P: G(A) R: You would get the mugrasse from the factory when it runs. P: OK. I understand. R: Yeah so we put the in the sea, we throw them in the sea, you know? P: G(A). R: And when we reach a good one we stop there, looking at them, so the fish come and start to play over the trash. P: G(A). R: So when they play over the trash, we go around there with the net. U(L). P: I see. R: U(L) We go round there with the net, so we catch them, you see. P: I see. So you lay that net completely around the fish that are in there jumping around the trash. R: Yeah, and they play in it, and so when you look they don(t know the net(s around them, you know. Till it late to reach it. P: G(A) Then how do you pull it in? R: Well, you see what happen, three men behind in the boat start pulling it. P: G(A) R: And one in the center. P: G(A). R: And the next one to the head of the boat. P: G(A). R: So when that man reach to the next end of it, we put it in around the boat head. P: G(A). R: No? P: Yeah. R: So then, because that part around the boat head, that(s the widest part of the net. P: Yeah. R: So that was a big jaw (?). P: G(A). R: For the fish then go in the draft. P: G(A). R: So when they pull the net from the other reach right around. P: G(A). R: Them fish can(t come out of the draft again so easy. P: G(A). R: So when you look we all up here, so we got them in the draft now. P: And you call that space (the draft.( R: Lovely. So we just pull them in the boat. P: What do you do then, just turn the net over? R: No, no, no, no, no. See what happen. We bring float line and the lad line in the boat, to the boat side. P: G(A) R: And we got them that with the float, U(F) we call them cork. P: Float a cork, OK. R: So they bring the nets up. P: Yeah. R: And that foot, the laddle line in the boat, so you mash it good, in the boat but they can(t come out. P: Yes. R: So we do it and we roll the fish then in the net and get a reach under and bring them in the boat that way. P: I see. And that(s a whole boatload. R: Well, sometime, you got to make three or four shoot to full the boat. P: You call it a (shoot(? R: But sometime you only make one shoot. P: Shoot: s-h-o-o-t? A shoot. R: Yes, we call it shoot. P: OK. R: When we start rolling the fish to come in. P: OK, but what I want to know is how do you get the fish out of the nets if you(re going to make a second shoot? R: Well, when you bring them in the boat, the fish them all the net. P: They go through the net? R: Because the net(s a little off in the boat stone and the fish dem come in the center of the boat. P: Yeah. R: So, only a few will stop in the net, so you take them out, and you put the balance of the net on top of the rest what(s in the boat. Yes? P: G(A) R: And you choke the fish them good in the boat, so all the space clear, so you could shoot the net again, if you want. P: G(A). R: No fish going that time because if you got fish in the boat you wouldn(t want to throw them out in the sea again. P: Yeah. R: Because you come to catch them. P: Right, but then you might do two or three more shoots. R: Yeah, yeah, according to how thin they are,.or if they thick they make do one or two. P: Is that right? R: Yeah. P: Well, if you did one shoot and you filled the boat up with one shoot, then you(d go to shore? R: Yeah. P: And would that be a day(s work or would you go out again? R: Yeah, that(s a day work. P: G(A). OK. Then what do you do with the fish? R: U(F) Well, we come in and we have a, this is before time, P: Yeah R: We had U(H) sellers to come in and we U(I::chee-up) the fish and they going to sell them. P: G(A) Would you sell the fish to the sellers? R: No, not to them, in them days, we give the sellers and they go and sell. P: And they sell and they give R: And they bring the money to us. P: And they keep a percentage for themselves, is that right? R: Yeah, that(s it. P: I see. Yeah. R: Now, if you give them for penny a pound to sell for about a penny and a half. P: G(A). R: You understand? P: G(A). I understand.. R: And the half for them and we get the penny. P: Right. And there(d be five of you in the boat, and then you(d divide that up among yourselves? R: Yeah, yeah. P: Did you have a captain or did you just, all equal? R: No, you got share for the net, you know. P: G(A). R: You got share for the net first. P: G(A). R: Then what left come for the men then. P: G(A). I see. R: So the captain and the men get the same amount because they do the same work. P: I see; well, that(s sensible, isn(t it. I see. Now tell me about the kind of fish that you(d catch. R: Well, we catch gars; we catch ballyhoo; we catch jacks; we catch bonita; and we catch sprat. All those we catch. Snuke, all those. You don(t know call snuke. Maybe you don(t know U(L). P: How do you spell that? R: S-n-u-k-e. P: Oh, snuke, what(s a snuke? R: It(s a long round fish about that size. P: G(A). Is it a good fish? R: G (A). And we catch snappers and all that. All kind of fish you catch in the net. P: All of these would be in that same, how far out do you go? R: Well, when we haul snukes and jacks, that to the seabed. No? P: G(A). R: Ballyoos and gar on top there, the surface. P: Yeah. R: But our net built, built to catch the surface fish, gar and ballyhoo. P: Yeah. R: But if you see jacks and bonita and snuke, we put rocks or stone on the net to take the net down to the bottom. P: I see. G(A). Down. R: On the seabed, where the fish are, you understand? P: Yes, I do, Sure I do. R: And then we pull them ashore. P: How far out from shore do you do this? R: Well, not too far. When we catch ballyhoo and gar we go out about a mile, U(F) mile and a half. P: Really, a mile. R: Our fishing not to far out. P: With a motor, you have a motor on the boat?. R: Yeah P: Did you always have a motor when you fished? R: No. Now we have motor. P: G(A). R: When I came back home from England, I met them with motor here. P: G(A). R: So we use the motor all the time now. P: Before that you had to row out? G(Q). R: Yeah, before we had to row the boat. P: Yeah. I see. OK. What did you do with the fish you didn(t sell? R: You don(t sell? P: Yeah. R: Well, you got to give them, in those days, you have to give them because that time they never had no ice. P: Yeah. R: So you have to give them or put salt on them, corn them. P: Yeah. R: But now if you aint got them sell, you put them in your fridge. P: I see, and they keep for a while. R: Yeah. P: But I was wondering if they used the fish for fertilizer. R No. P: Not much, G(V)? R: They aint got no machine here for that at all. P: OK. R: You mean like fish meal and all that? P: Yeah. R: No, they aint got that here. P: I just heard that. U(F). I know you never worked in the sugar cane, but do you know anything about it, how it(s done? R: Yeah., because I going to look at them, I like to see them cut cane. P: G(A). R: Before time because everybody used to have a machete. P: G(A). R: And they go and they cut the cane by the road. P: G(A). R: You understand? P: Yeah. R: And when they throw them, throw them down in a heap, you know a heap. P: G(A). R: You have another set, gang come and take up the cane and throw them in these cart. P: G(A). R: See before time we had cattle cart and horse cart and tractor. P: G(A). R: You understand. P: Yes. R: The tractor come and they throw them in the tractor cart. P: G(A). R: the cart behind the tractor, P: Right. R: And they take them to the sliding. You call it the sliding to the railroading. P: G(A). R: Because they got a truck there, different from the tractor truck, you know. P: G(A). R: These tractors from the railroad now. P: G(A). R: So they put them in there by. P: G(A). R: Pack them, and the locomotive come and take them to the factory. P: OK, I see. Was there a plantation nearby? Is there one here in Sandy Point, near Sandy Point? R: Yeah, mon, a lot all in Sandy Point here. They got Sigalee, they got Booth, they have Blake, they have Cranston, all here. P: G(A) Several. R: But they had them. P: G(A). R: Then before, but since the government take over, now there be a couple of them together. P: G(A) Yeah, just like the one U(I). R: About six or seven of them now. P: And what(s that called? What(s the one big one called? R: I don(t know. They just call them what they was before. P: G(A). I see. They don(t use a word for bringing them all together. R: No. P: OK. Now I want to ask you something about, what kind of trees are there in Sandy Point? R: Trees? P: Trees. R: You mean all of these here? P: Yeah. R: Guinea tree, tamarin trees, coconut trees, banana trees, and they got all kind of trees, man. But what happened is, when I went they had a lot of fruit trees, man, but since I came back here they cut them a lot. P: G(A). R: Mango trees, pear trees. I got pear trees. I got sosa tree. What do we call that sosa? N: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sosa tree. P: Breadfruit? R: Yeah, that(s it. You look around and you see them still around here. P: G(A). What are the kinds that disappeared when you were away in England? R: You mean the trees? P: Yeah, what kind of trees? R: We had date trees. I don(t see none now. I scarcely see any pomegranate, pomegranate trees.. But they have them still here. P: G(A). R: They cut them a lot of trees and build houses. P: G(A). R: Sure. P: When the trees U(I). R: When I leave here, I leave coconut trees here. I leave six coconut trees. P: G(A). R: And tamarind trees, the whole fence had tamarind trees and when I come back I don(t make nothing. P: G(A). This is the house you owned before you went to England? R: No, the one. P: Right next door? R: No, the one behind you. P: Oh, I see. R: That the house I leave. That the house all of us were in. P: G(A). R: But when I came from England the first time that was all, sixty-six. P: G(A). R: I been this here. P: You(ve been here since sixty-six. R: See I came back sixty-five and went to the store there and I trust the lumber, you know, P: (G(A) R: And went back England and send the money and pay to build the house. P: G(A) I see.. R: So that was a good financial. P: I see. You were making the money in England to build the house R: Yes. P: I see. I see. So that worked out for you. R: Yeah, what I done when I come back home. U(L). P: Yeah, right. You had enough of that. R: That(s it. P: You really enjoyed the fishing more. R: Yeah, man. P: That(s a better life, yeah. R: Not to next work I do, but the fishing. P: Yeah, yeah. R: I love it, man, U(L). P: Yeah. Tell me what yu didn(t like about England, about living in England. R: Well, you see what happen, I went up this year when they had the riot, when they had the race riot, that was fifty-eight. P: G(A). R: And from that, chilled me, man, every morning, you buy a newspaper and you see where so much colored get dead and P: Really? R: Where are so much, white get dead and from that, you know, mean, I wouldn(t feel, I can(tt U(I: care went a deal). P: G(A). R: So, anyway, I didn(t used to feel good about it at all. P: G(A). R: When I loved the Indian, them saying don(t call them, they must call them by their Indian, I mean they aint white and they aint black. U(L). P: U(L). R: U(F). So all that chilled me, mon, chilled me.. P: Yeah. R: As soon I get enough to build a house, I(m going back home. P: I see. How did you decide to go to England in the first place? R: Well, if I tell you, you wouldn(t believe me. P: Yes, I will. R: Well, one time me friend went on the police station. Go play domino. P: G(A) R: Not domino, draw. P: G(A). R: We call it checkers, mon. P: Yeah. R: The police when they came back they tell us the judge say that somebody come on here and tell me that me, me brother, and a friend of mine, say we(re going to knock him down. P: G(A). R: I say, Lord, U(F) we(re here doing nothing. So my mother tell me brother he must come across England or they arrest him, you undertsand? P: G(A). R: So he went, and when he went he tell me I must come go before anything happen. So U(F) I went the year after he, you see, so that(s why I went. P: Let(s stop a minute. Your brother was being bullied by somebody, and so your mother had him go to England, so then you went? R: Yeah. P: Well, how did your brother like it over there? R: Well, he didn(t stay long. P: G(A). R: He came back before me. P: G(A). R: Yeah, but he died. This year. P: Oh, really. I(m sorry. R:Yeah. He got a U(I), so he breaking his U(I), so he couldn(t do nothing. P: G(A). R: Yeah. He died. This year he buried. P: G(A). So how long did you stay there/ R: How long do I stay? P: Did you stay in England, yeah. R: All tolled, seventeen years. P(A). R: But, you know, my mother was alive, you know. P:(A). R: So I like the mother, so every other year, I come home U(L), come see me mother. P: How long did you stay when you come home? R: Six months, all the time. P: Yeah, you(d come for six months, G(V). R: Six months, all the time. P: So did you just change jobs or did they give you the time off? R: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, some of them when I go back U(F) take me back, but some tell me when I want to come home quick again, I find another job that pay a little more money. P: I see. R: You understand. P: Sure, absolutely. R: So I could get a little more money I have to come back again. P: Yeah. R: In two year(s time. P: G(A) R: That would happen.. P: U(F) Of course, you were coming back quite frequently, but did yo notice any big change in life here in St. Kitts, from the time when you left and came back? R: Yeah, I notice that thing change up here, and when I came they had a lot better house than when I leave here. P: G(A). R: Because when I leave here they had a lot of board house. P: G(A). R: They scarcely had those block house. P:Yeah. R: I mean, they had a few, you know, but not much. Now come to seem like everybody got block house now. P: Yes, right. And with the government, change in government, is that part of it? R: Yeah, because when I went there, we were what they call, we wasn(t ranked (?) independence yet. We never reached for that, what they call independence, something or the other. Something or other, I forget the name of it, when they aint so far that yet. P: G(A). R: You see? P: Yeah. R: You when I came back U(F), they still had it. Then things are here and then they went independent. P: G(A). R: I never thought U(F) we like independent. We country small one. P: G(A) R: We should have been state or statehood. P: G(A). R: That(s the word I want to use, statehoood. P: You mean like a province? R: When we come back I made them have statehood here. P: A state of what? You mean of West Indian U(I). R: No, I think that before you become independent, the English government give them statehood. P: Yeah. R They call it, that(s what they call it. P: G(A). R: Statehood. You understand. P: Yeah, sure. R: That(s when they gave up premier, a premier instead of prime minister. P: Yeah, I see. I understand that fully. That makes good sense. R: Yeah. P: U(F) What I was going to ask you about, I just wondered if you noticed any difference socially, difference in the way people behaved.. R: U(L) Yeah, here, worse, now than before. P: Yeah. R: Cause before time, use case, used to move up the prison, used to have in their cell a little, now come the police, now come the prison fill, full right up prisoners now, man. P: G(A). R: I just cant understand this kind of thing, man. P: G(A). What did he say with the fiddle? R: You see often, whenever I used to got drug before. P: Yeah. R: The only thing used to do is to smuggle rum from St. Eustatius and St. Bart, rum and cigarette P: G(A). R: And bring here and sell, rum and cigarettes, but not drugs, never. P: G(A). R: But I never used to hear about drugs them. P: G(A). The drugs are a new thing, yeah. R: Yeah, new thing. P: Yeah. U(F) What holidays did they celebrate in St. Kitts? R: Well, they celebrate Easter, Whit, August, that was the government celebration. P: What(s that one called? R: And Christmas. P: What(s the one in August called? R: Whit. P: Whit, August? R: Yeah. Easter and Christmas Day. P: G(A). R: Now, when Christmas Day come, you celebrate it until the second day in January. P: Yeah R: So U(F) I leave it before I went to England. So we had a good time during the holidays and Christmas. P: G(A). R: All the time, you know, got the good sport, all the time, yeah. P: G(AQ). R: But now in my days now, when I go to school, they give us five weeks holiday. P: G(A). R: Now ome, they got nine of them, nine and eight weeks. So now it never happen. P: G(A). R: Too much that you learn on the road, man. P: U(L). What about the holidays? Was it called August? R: Independent Day, Empire Day? P: August Tuesday or something like that or August Thursday? R: August Monday, man. P: U(L) August Monday. OK. R: Yeah. P: And what about Empire Day? R: Empire Day, they used to say, well, Empire Day(s the Queen birthday or the King birthday. P: G(A). I see. R: So we used to celebrate it too. P: I see. R: But only for one day then. P: G(A). R: Used to march, you know, school, we used to march, come right through on there. P: G(A). Do they still celebrate Empire Day? R: I don(t think so. P: Don(t think so. R: No, the government will celebrate the Queen birthday. P: Do you have an Independence U(I). R: But they don(t let that in school. P: I see. But do you have an Independence Day? R: Oh, yeah, Independence Day they celebrate too. P: I don(t mean celebrating emancipation. R: Holiday? P: I don(t mean emancipation, but is there a holiday for when St. Kitts gained its independence from England? R: Yeah, only one, well, that(s the Nineteenth of September. P: September? R: Yeah. P: OK. I want to ask you also about birds. R: Birds? P: Birds, what kind of birds are there on St. Kitts? R: Well, we aint got no much birds at right up over there. P: G(A). R: I don(t except know much of them. P: G(A). R: Mind, I saw them, but I don(t know all of them names. P: G(A). R: One, we used to have catapult. P: G(A). R: You know, of course, some rubber and thing. P: Catapult, yeah, with a slingshot. Yeah.. R: Yeah. P: Yeah. You shoot birds. R: Used to shoot them, the doves. P: Yeah. R: And eat them. P: Is that right? R: U(L). The big one, not the little. P: Yeah. N: They(re one to eat. R: Some they call mountain dove; we call some ground dove. P: G(A). R: They give them all kind of name. P: G(A). R: So we kill the dove, them more. P: G(A). R: No? And when we kill them we eat them. P: G(A). R: Cook them up. P: G(A). How about sea birds? R: Sea birds? Well, we only have them we call pelican. P: Yeah. What else to you call pelicans. R: W call them U(H) booby. P: OK. R: And the house, well, that(s the name that come. Some they call the ballyhoo bird. P: What(s a ballyhoo bird? R: Some white bird. P: G(A). End Side A P: How about little birds, like humingbirds? R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got that. P: What(s that? R: Well, they all through the village. P: What(s that? R: The hummingbird. P: The hummingbird, OK. How about animals? R; Animals? P: Yeah. R: Well, we have goat, sheep, pig, cow, bull, but we ain(t got things U(F) like over there now. We ain(t got snake and those things U(L). P: There were snakes here, weren(t there, at one time? R: Here? P: Yeah. R: I never seen none yet. P: I heard the mongoose was brought in U(I). R: Yeah, mongoose. We got plenty mongoose here, man. P: How about monkeys U(I)? R: Monkeys. P: How about the monkeys? R: Yeah. P: Did you ever eat monkeys? R: Eat? P: G(A). R: Yeah P: How are they? R: Tough. P: Yeah. R: I remember U(F) when I was a child, he had a old man on the road that went that way. P: G(A). R: And he used to send me out, send me out to buy things, no, for him. [=you know?] P: G(A). R: And when I come back here, ask if I want one piece of monkey, and glad, man, I tell him yes. P: U(L). R: U(L). But he give me the piece that tough. P: Was it cooked? R: Yeah, yeah, he cook it. P: G(A). R: I can(t forget that. P: U(L). Did they ever sell it in stores? R: If they? P: Monkeys, the butchers? R: Oh, yeah, saw them in the butchers. P: G(A). R: I go up the mountain the and saw them jump from one tree to te other. P: G(A). R: I likes to gets mongoose too. We used to catch them, you know. We used to make mongoose trap. P: Oh, really. R: Yeah, U(F), the other day, I see two of them in those bushes there P: G(V). What did you do with them when you trapped them? R: Well, we kill them. P: (A). R: Yeah, because I think they had a rule here, yeah, they had a rule here. When I was a boy, say, if you kill a mongoose, you cut off the mongoose tail. No, you carry the mongoose on the station, and they tell you cut off the tail to the police station. And when you cut off the tail, they give you a penny. And you go ahead and show the mongoose and the tail. P: G(A). R: I think the reason for that they had too much because if you have a chicken, if you got fowl and you got chicken, the mongoose will come and gobble the chicken then. P: G(A) R: And in those days, you know, you end up now, we never used to got the shop where used to sell the chicken. You know that? P: Yeah. R: Well, U(F) so you got your fowl there, you want your fowl grew up, get him to eat. You got to cut out the mongoose.tail U(L)and get the penny. P: Did you ever do that? R: Yeah, man. P: How did you kill them? R: Well, sometime you could you bring it in front of your dog, and your dog will kill it. P: G(A). Your dog will kill him, G(V). R: Yeah. And sometime you tie it up short. The mongoose, they(ll come and bite you, you know. P: Yeah. R: So you tie it up short with a piece of stick P: G(A). R: With a piece of stick. And when they come, you hold it and you P: You whack them. R: Like that. P: I see. But they were paying you a penny a tail. R: One penny for a tail U(L). P: Was that for a long time or U(I)? R: Yeah. A long time, a long time, man. I(m seventy-six years old and that happen all when I was nine and ten years old. P: G(A). I see. But. I mean, that went on U(F) all the time you were growing up; they were still paying a penny a tail? R: U(L) Well, I don(t know because after I start to go down the bay I never was U(I). P: Never thought about it. R: I wasn(t thinking about it. P: Rather catch fish than mongoose. R: U(L). Yeah, dat(s it. P: Yeah, right. Tell me about some of your friends. R: My friends? P: Yeah. R: Had a lot of friends, man. P: Tell me about some of them. R: U(F) When I leave school, about ten of us went U(R) down the bay to work P: G(A). R: Well, what happen, I was the smallest there. P: G(A). R: But I could have mend net, you know, more than all of them P: Yeah. R:Because my father was a fisherman, and in those days you had to make your own net. P: G(A). R: Knit it. P: G(A). R: Nothing to buy it. P: G(A). R: Those days, never used to knit with no machine. P: G(A). R: So used to knit it on your hand. P: G(A). R: So my father, I come with my father, had the net in the house, at nighttime, hang up. P: G(A). R: And my sister done one of them, knit it because my belonged it [it belonged to me?] P: G(A). R: But I was the youngest, I(m the last, so I jealoused them I want to knit up with them. P: G(A). R: So when they leave it, I(m just in quarter, you know, I take up the needle and start to knit. P: G(A). R: So when they come back, they call, say, (Pa, see Lofton here put in a mismatch.( U(L). P: P(A). U(L). R: U(L) So I got to lose it all and hand them back.( P: Yeah. R: So when I went on the bay, I had know a little about knitting. P: G(A). R: But not mending, mending is when your net broke. P: G(A). R: And you got to put it back on the boat [?] P: I see. R: So U(F) when I went down bay, man, I had a little experience. P: G(A). R: So I start t mend. P: G(A). R: Sometime mend the trying and the old time fisherman they see that I was willing. P: Yeah. R: And they help me along. P: I see. R: Try in about three weeks, I could have mend good. P: G(A). R: So the other.boys U(F), them, the other boys them, they jealous me, no? P: Yeah. R: And they used to come around me, and I show them anything, and so we go around, you see? P: G(A). R: Was a good thing, man. P: G(A). R: I loved that thing. I used to go out in a boat, fishing. P: G(A). R: Then after, come about sixteen years old, my captain tell me he going [gawnga] to smuggle it, you smuggle, going to [gawnga] buy rum. P: G(A). Oh, really? R: At (Eu)statius, and bring it back St. .Kitts and sell. P: G(A). R: So I tell him, he ask me if I want to go, I say (Other than me, man.([?] That boat never had no motor, the old, no motor boat, so used to use sail, the sailboat. P: Yeah. R: So we went down and to buy the rum, and we come up, when we coming back in the night now, the guard, the police see you, you know. P: G(SA). R: U(F) And when we coming up the boat sink down, you know. P: G(A). R: The boat turn over in the channel.: P: G(A). R: It was me and a moo-moo fellow. P: G(A). R: And the captain was old, older, and I had to work on that boat, to save myself, you know, I got to jump in boat sail, and press down the boat(s spar. P: G(A). R: You know, so the boat can come back up. P: Yeah. R: Because in those days, the boat used to have stone ballast. P: Yes. R: And it work for the water, and the stone go in the bottom, you know.\ P: G(A). Yeah. R: And if you go bottom, that mean that the boat leave you and the water now. P: G(A). R: Cause you could swim, and when you get between to land, you don(t know what to do. You understand? P: Yeah R: So I was so lucky that when the boat come back up, I feel down and I loose up everything and I let go. P: G(A). R: I turn over the boat because the moo-moo fellow there, he don(t know what to do. P: G(A). R: The captain old enough and so I try to save me life and I think now that me life could go out any time. P: Yeah, sure.. R: U(F) . So I start to do things, man, anywhere, I find the water rough enough. P: G(A). R: Oh, God, was the water rough. P: G(A). R: U(F) The Captain, somebody give him a basket, to give somebody with some apples in it. P: G(A). R: U(F) So when we sink down, we take out the basket, go on and put it on head. P: U(L). R:We didn(t have no to keep on his hat. P: Yeah. R: I said, (Captain,( well after everything done, I had to go look for the rudder and the oars and them now. P: G(A). R: I said, (Well if we got them, we got a chance. Anyway U(I).( P: Yeah. R: I find it the oar and I find the rudder. P: G(A). R:When I bring them, I tell the Captain, (Hold the one and no more fell off, hold one.( P: G(A). R: But all the sudden that there by the boat, you know. P: G(A). R: Because we done turn back of the boat, turn it back over. P: G(A). R: The bottom, we deep, U(I: three, four..it was) P: Yeah R: Anyway, he said, (No we do ourselves.( Well, all we could do was to swim and shove the boat and see if it could reach anywhere. P: G(A). R: All right. In the rest would be in the boat, I think, you know, a lot of things. P: G(A). R: I was saying to myself, Lord, me mother don(t know where I be. P: G(A). Yeah. R: Me brother and sister dem, they don(t know where I is now. P: Sure, yeah. G(A). R: And you U(I). P: Sure. How far out were you? R: G(V)? P: How far out were you? R: U(F) We was about seven miles from Eustatius land. P: Oh, my goodness. R: But you see the underwater was going back to Eustatius. P: Yes. R: Anyway, I say, (Captain, you know what you going do? Let me put the boat head before the sea, and all the water going out in the boat stones. Sink it down and some of the water. N: Hey [to someone outside].. Yeah, OK. R: See the water run out. P: G(A). R: So we do it first.. P: G(A). R: But we fail. P: G(A). R: We do it the second time and the third time, the fourth time, we fail. P: G(A). R: And still inside we have better chance. And we do it until we get a chance. When the boat come back up, the boat U(M: stowing in the carrying had been there). P: G(A). R: I see go to things and I say (Tell the captain, take the basket, hold on to the boat, and take one hand. P: G(A). R: So he could bail out some. And he did bail out. U(L). P: U(L). R: Well, I see it come up, and I say (Praise to God.( P: U(L). R: We have a chance now. Well, this time the moo-moo fellow worried to in the boat, this time for a shark. P: G(A). R I say, (Man, let the old man go in the boat and see what he could bail out.. P: G(A). R: When he reach in the boat, he start to bail. I say, (Well, this don(t come in a hundred time. Anyway, when the moo-moo could go, I tell him go ahead, can bail now. P: G(A). R: And I gave the oar them, gave the oar them. P: G(A). R: And when the boat come up more, I went in. P: G(A). R: And we out of there. Here the joke now. We have the two oars, but we ain(t got no crutch. P: G(A). R: Nothing, because you had to level to seal them, and a lot of rum, you know, casks of rum and jimmy john, and you got to let them go. P: G(A). R: You got to let them go, so. P: G(A). R: So we only have the two oars. P: G(A). R: Now, they took, we ain(t got no crutch. When I say crutch, roll out now, to pull the oars. In. P: G(A). R: So, I tell him, (Well, fisherman just got their ways, tie with rope.( P: G(A). R: You see? P: Yeah. R: So all of us, ways, we tie with rope. P: G(A). R: Because you had to have this water going that way.. P: G(A) R: So we loose up the rope, and we put it in the crutch hole. P: G(A). R: In the oarlock hole. And we put it U(I). P: Is the crutch hole the oarlock, you mean? R: Yeah. P: Oarlock R: Yeah. P: You put the oar in. OK. R: Yeah, but you see when they had none, we call them, went, we had to take the rope, put it in the hole. P: G(A). R: And tie the oar. P: Tie the oars on, yeah, I see. U(L). R: But we pull them, pull them, pull until there was no more rope. P:G(A). R: Because when you pull it, you know, there, just (be)come weak. P: G(A). R: You know what I mean? P: Yes, I do. It loses its U(I) R: Yeah, that(s it. That happen all the time. P: It stretches. R: Yeah, they rub out. So I tell him, (Let me put three four on the boat side and put the oar against it. P: G(A). R: So we do it until we reach the channel; we reach there, rowing the boat, five o(clock. P: G(A). R: Yeah. P: Now what station is that, that you reached? R: (Eu)statius Harbor. St. Eustatius. P: Oh, you went back to Eustatius? R: No, when we were coming back St. Kitts, we had to go back so U(M: to issue?) P: G(A). R: Because the current was coming down to Eustatius, and the wind and the water was coming into (Eu)statius. P: So you couldn(t sail. R: So we couldn(t go against it; we had to go with it. P: I see. R: If you go against it, you bad, so we got to go with it, has to get more speed. P: G(A). So did you refit the boat then? R: Yeah, we reached (Eu)statius about five o(clock in the morning. P: Wow. U(L), what a night? R: Boy, this time (Eu)statius only had a few people. P: G(A). R: So I had to swim a shore and call the harbor master, P: G(A). R: So had go in there and tell him the boat sink; he say (What!( P: U(L). R: So he take the phone and he call and he had to tell the police then. So the police done came then. When morning, lot of people came down here; they had saw of the boat. So that was before school. P: U(L). Your first adventure. R: My first time at sea. P: Your first adventure. R: Yeah. P: But who lost all the money on that shipment. R: Well, everybody who want us to buy rum for them. P: G(A). R: They lose. By way they study that; we study with life. P; And you told them? R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they never ask (be)cause they know (a)bout it. P:They never argued about that, G(V)? R: Sure, man, I had some nice days, man. P: G(A). Did you have any good trips doing hat? R: Any good? P: Good trips? R: Yeah, man, U(M: hover me). P: Tell me about a couple of those or one of those. R: Well, I tell you one again you wouldn(t believe what happen to me. P: Tell me. R: Well, some boys, some boy, ask me to go with them again to smuggle. P: G(A). R: So when we went, two big men and me, by that time I grew up more and was about sixteen years at the time, or seventeen years. And we went (Eu)statius. P: G(A). R: Go buy some rum. Here what happen. When the two men start to quarrel and start to bruise one another now. One wrecks one guy; he buy rum for the fellow enemy, and he no want him to buy no rum for him. P: G(A). R: So there was quarrel. He coming over. That time out we brought only about twelve feet long. That(s only a small boat. So we coming home to St. Kitts and they(re quarreling, so I start to drink rum then. P G(A). R:Now and after they stop quarreling because we(re at sea because I done sink them already, and I know how hard it is. P: G(A) R: You know mean? P: Right. R: I never want it happen again. P: Absolutely. R: U(F) When we nearly reach here now, I smell oil then. So when I smell oil, I say the motor boat, the government boat out looking for smugglers. P: G(A). R: So when I look, I see, you know, I see it coming at us. P: G(A) 629 R: They say me, I look at the motor boat, but I so anxious, you know, I didn(t want them to catch me. P: G(A). R: But what you think happen? They catch me anyway. P: G(A). R: I jump over in the water before U(F) the boat reach a good way in the shore. P: G(A). R: You understand? P: Yeah. R: So I think that when the motorboat would have go straight, straight on to the boat, you know? P: G(A). R: And hold it, it swing around so, P: G(A). R: And the motorboat meet me over there. P: G(A). R: And I duck down but how long you think I could do that. They see me head. P: G(A). R: If I moo-moo-moo. The moon was shining. P: Yeah.. R: And they wait until I come back up. P: G(A). R: And they come overboard and under hold me. P: G(A). R: U(L). So I about sixteen. And the other two men, the boat bring them near in, and they jump off and [GESTURE: SUGGESTIVE QUICK ESCAPE]. P: G(A). R: And they run so the motorboat went and you hold the boat now, full of rum and thing. P: U(L). R: And they take me. That happen on Sunday now. That happen Saturday night. P: G(A). R: So they keep me there and see until Sunday morning. And the boat and the parcel. U(L). P: U(L). R: U(F) The parcel by the U(M: beddy-ya) and a lot people near because who was the original, you know, tell everybody what happen in the night. P: G(A). R: So the morning everybody see going up in your motorboat. So they take me to Basseterre. You know. P: U(L). R: They had me there by then, truck. They try me the Monday. P: The tried you? R: Yeah. In court, you know. P: Tell me about that. R: So they charge me U(H). P: They charge you with smuggling? R: Yeah, they charge me twenty-five pound in doing it. P: G(A). R: Though we used to use dollars. P: G(A). R: But the government used pound. P: Yeah. R: So they charge me twenty-five pound. But when I leave them I leave five pound home on your children. P: G(A). R: But when I was in prison there, the case try the morning so they carry me out to prison in the afternoon. P: G(A). R: But in the night, the money came in, Mom sent up the money now. Everybody give till it come to nearly twenty-five pounds. P: I see. That(s nice you had friends that would do that. R: Yeah, because, I tell you, everybody, they like me, man. P: U(L). R: Because I was, I tell you, everybody had, they like me, man, because I was kind and thing, you know, and short in life. P: U(L). R: So everybody give until the money come. P: That(s good. R: And the night, the night, I come home, when the money come up, they take me out and I come home. P: G(A). R: So you better be good you see, when you(re good you(re good. P: Sure. R: And that. P: Sure. Absolutely. Did anything happen at Eustatius after the wreck? R: Yeah, I get shipwreck again in the same channel, you know. P: G(A). R: Should I tell you about it? P: Yes. R: U(F). Now we plan to go U(F) (Eu)statius with a clearance. We going with a clearance. P: G(A). R: But to go buy rum and come back up. P: G(A). R: So we have two lady in there from Eustatius, two passengers from St. Eustatius. P: G(A). R: So we was taking them down, this was a Sunday. P: G(A). R: And we had in some cargo with fruits and food and mountain fruit going down. P: G(A). R: So the boat gets swamp again. You have to jump into the sea again with two woman in it. P: Yeah. R: Here what happen. Now I had to press down the spar again. P: G(A). R: And the boat come bottom up. P: G(A). R: Try. I don(t want it to go down to the bottom, and it be underwater. P: G(A). R: (Be)cause men all with a journey. So you got to be careful with them pig. I tell you I never used to relax in there, always used to got me head on. P: G(A). R: (Be)cause I don(t want no think about it, but this storm will get you, really do.it. P: G(A). R: But when we there, I don(t know do them john because, because they can(t swim. P: G(A). R: So three of us was there. Me, a friend of buddy name Charlie, and the captain by the name of Houby XXX. P: What was the captain(s name? R: Houby XXX. P: Houby. How do you spell that? R: H-O-U-B-Y P: OK. R: Anyway, U(F) we did a quarrel now. The M: . I say, (Man, I telling you I see water. Cut out straight of the boat.( P: G(A). R: He(s telling me, he(s the last one to kill the baby. P: G(A). R: I say, :Man, how you manage to that when you kill the baby, man. U(F) If you know your [U(M: bread(s no good, you could have given the hell up). Oh, God. P: G(A). R: Look where we is now. P: G(A). R: Look where we is now. He(s telling me now, :If you see them, tell them, tell them, I was a good captain.( P: G(A). R: Tell me a quarrel in the car, I show you man done drown, the tall man beside the cars. P: G(A). R: Well, maybe their quarrel did not start to [U(M): concentrate]. What do you want to quarrel for? You got the choice if you go to see him yourself. P: G(A). R: So I start to go underneath the boat to loose up U(F) the seal and let them go now. Let them go. P: G(A). R: Because you can(t get, got nowhere to put them. P: G(A). R: When I go under the boat, I never expect to see the woman there. P: G(A). R: I never look upon to see them. P: G(A). R: You understand? R: Yeah. R: I(m doing my work what I suppose to do.. P: Yeah. R: Me dear, when you ready to turn over the boat now, to turn it good. P: G(A). R: The man then put up the head [U((M): to see the seals]. P: G(A) R: Let me tell you, see, they(re alive there. P: G(A). R: I want to know how that happen. P: G(A). R: It take me P: U(L). R: It take me about fifteen years to know how the seal work. P; U(L). R: Yeah. And here they do up, right now, you see them. I shock. P: G(A). R: Anyway, me start to scream and shove the boat. P: G(A). R: While with this screaming and shoving, I feel hungry now, so I say, (Well, I going, . I going in the boat, go see if I find anything under the piece of deck.( P: G(A). R: So when I went, I find a tania. [U(M): six syllables); something to eat, but U(M): two syllables), it like a yam, like. P: G(A). R: So I bring it out, and I take a bite, and the next two fellows take a bite each until they finish it up. You know? P: G(A). R: So when I did it, the captain went down and say, he went down and say if you find anything else, so he bring up a coconut, a dry coconut. P: G(A). R: And he bust in on the boat, so then we done eat. But when the woman crawled in and say U(F), (If you got the wrong coconut, what else you going to eat here?( P: U(G). R: Well, the captain start to grow to middle[?]. I say, (Man, you see us hungry, we fighting to see of you lines and you still got to burn some.( P: G(A). R: OK. Well, you swimming and shoving, I see two big fish jump up in the air, but I can(t tell them, you know, but I know they was two dolphin. P: G(A). R: But I don(t want to tell noboday nothing, otherwise, they, you know what I mean? They some tendency, the might go on for them. Well, in the after, about four o(clock, P: G(A). R: By the time I got the boat cheem out from St. Eustatius, I study now if I could make it to (St. Eu)statius, and me hand. P: G(A). R: (Be)cause sort of going with them because so many going on good. P: G(A). R: So the fellow decide he going with me. He say, (Well, glad for going, you know, I aint staying, I going with you. Because, you know, you know more than the captain. I said, (All right.( P: G(A). R: Now, when the woman, here I was planning to go, she started to cry. P: G(A). R: The other one say, (Lord, Lofton I got eleven children. Please don(t go anywhere. Only you go near [three syllables + two syllables]. ( And I turn off it, I turn off still, and the fellow turn off. P: G(A). R: So the two of us. I said, (Take your time on the car, you got about three miles and the sun, see, and the sun goes down six o(clock. P: G(A). R: And I said, (It(s pretty it clear. I mean I don(t want that, come with me in the water. P: G(A). R: So we swimming and swimming, I there, thinking, you know, and a-watching the distance away. P: G(A). R: So when I there, I say, (I tell you fellow, look,( I talking back, you know, talking abut the car. Me no sure, me no sure I could make it to hand. You understand? And if you got the boat, you better, because the boat aint going to hold on in. You understand? P: G(A). R: When we going back, when we going back by the boat, I hear one of the old woman start to say, (Oh, praise God, I see a sail.( A boat sail come in now, a boat about the size of us. P: G(A). R: Cause they were smuggle too. P: G(A). R: So when I look I see them, I said. (The boat just left for [three syllables, a St. Eustatius place name?]. You got about four to five miles before I could reach a pier. P: G(A). R: So now I got to reach, got a car sail. When you been one, blind attend to block, when the boat go, it got to come right in here where we is, it got to tack and come in. And hard work. Just tell them what happening now. When I took the boat come right in at us, where we been swimming. P: G(A). R: The woman say, (Well, I turn you good.( Well, I say, (Yes, because I know, I know.( And they came in and they pick us up.( P: Oh, great, U(L). R: They pick us up, so you see, if we had swim, gone, we had been in trouble. P: Yeah. R: And they pick us up; now here the joke. We tie on, we tie the boat where it was in, so the other boat could pull it in for us. P: G(A). R: So when we tie it, U(F) we only tied that around the boat head. P: G(A). R: So when the boat turn off now, full speed, pull on the stem of the boat, so we got to just lay up the boat number again. P: G(A). R: So we went in. We went in and let me tell you, that woman, one (of) the woman, not the one that quarreled because we eat with the coconut. The other one, she called me and she called the six children to tell them, anyone who comes to you, if you(re dead, always remember me. P: G(A). R:And come look for me where I is. Cause remember me the way they done.me. So what yu tell them. P: G(A). R: This time, you know. P: Yeah. R: In those days, (Eu)satius only had a few people. And I tell you, when they look and see the boat coming down behind, three of them left off the boat to go and the rest they come to me, five of them person come eight of them, they want to know what happen because three of them left off the boat. P: Sure. R: How come the eight person come down in the boat. P: G(A). R: Two of them on the boat get the heel head done full of papeel and a lot of them around done. P: G(A) R: When the reach by along the bay and they tell them what happen and them jump out they cry. P: G(A). R: I tell you the cry, man; they were weeping and moaning down there when the young man tell them what happen. I tell you. So that is twice I had off with diploma. P: G(A). Twice what did you say? R: It(s what they call, if you(re a fisherman, they(d say you got to get off with your diploma. Twice, it(s what they call. P: Get my? R: Get my diploma. P: Get your diploma? Oh. You got your diploma for being shipwrecked. Yeah. R: Yeah P: Now both of those boats capsized, right? R: Yeah P: They capsized.. R: G(A). P: OK, and when they capsized in that second one, the women were underneath the boat? R: Yeah. These what I want to tell you now about it now. P: Yeah. R: Takes me fifteen years to find out how they was alive. P: G(A). R: And never forget it in me growing up all the time. P: G(A). R: I thinking about it. P: G(A). R: How they come to sailboat. P: G(A). R: In the wreck, I no find no [two syllables?] P: G(A). R: This is more fifteen years after. P: Yeah. R: One day, one day we had some jacks fish in a boat, down in the shore. P: Yea. R: That time I grow up now so it come my mind. P: G(A). R: So. you know, we turn already boat to to wash it off. P: Yeah. R: So when the boat turn over, we had a moo-moo fellow who grew up with me. P: What(s a moo-moo? What is moo-moo. N: He can(t talk. R: He can(t talk. P: A moo-moo(s mute? F: He can(t talk good. N: Yeah, he can hear, but he can(t. P: He can hear, but he can(t talk. F: He could hear you. P: He(s mute. N: Yeah. R: Yeah. P: Excellent. R: Good, so when I look he dive down, he dive down under the boat. P: Yeah. R: So I aint see him come up. P: G(A). R: I ain(t see him come up, you understand? P: Yeah. R: I aint see him come up at all. P: Right R: So I want to tell people that the moo-moo drown. P: G(A). R: But yet, still, I(m not, aint saying nothing yet. P: G(A). R: I say about five minutes passed; I(d say ten minutes passed; I say a man can(t stay under the water so long. P: G(A). R: So he drown. P: G(A). R: When then I see him come up, fresh, so I say, (What happen?( P: G(A). R: Where you was? P: G(A) R: He say (Under the boat.( P: G(A). R: I say, (Show me.( P: G(A). R: He say, (Come,( so I follow him. P: Yeah. R: And when we put up your head, I say you put up your head under the boat. P: Under the boat, there(s air. R: Yeah. That(s it. That how come the water don(t come down. Yeah, man, you can see it. S: An air pocket, yeah. P: G(A). R: And you hold on the ribbon of the boat. N: Yeah, yeah. P: G(A). R: And you the steady until your boat turn over. P: What was that seal you wanted to open? Remember you said you wanted topne the seal on the bottom of the boat.. N: The sail. P: The sail. What, did you want to cut, take the sail off? R: Oh, you know you the sail, when you got the sail and the spar. P: G(A). R: You got to go unloose some the rope, what tied to the boat, you know. P: G(A). Loosen it. R: What tied to the boat, you know. P: You got to detach it. R: Yeah,. N: Yeah P: So you can upright it, so you can turn it. R: Yeah. N: Yeah, to turn it over; you can(t turn it over with a sail on. P: I see. Yes, all right. R: So you got to loose them now cause you aint got nothing now. P: Sure. R: Everything lost so you got nothing so you got to loose them up and thing. P: G(A). R: And you know them thing call, I don(t know, them thing leads to the boat fro the spar. P: G(A). R: We call them the halyard. P: G(A), yeah, I(ve heard that. R: You see? P: Yeah. P: And the gib again what tied to the boat head. P: G(A). R: You got to loosen all them that. P: G(A). R: So it take me fifteen year to find out how a man stay alive like that. P: Could you have done that, going to St. Eustatius with a motor boat? R: Ah, but the motorboat aint got no sail up engine. P: What do you want a sail for? R: The motor boat aint have no sail up, but we had got to carry a sail because we never had no motor, you know. P: G(A). Yeah I see. But what I(m saying it would have been safer It sounds like that sailboat was kind of dangerous. R: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it was a motor boat, you could have cut down the speed. P: Yeah. R: You could have cut down the speed, make it easier. N: When the sail goes up, you have to be real experienced. to sail it. P: I(ll bet. I(ll bet. And was that was before you went to England? R: Yeah, yeah. How many? S:: When he was young, frisky. P: Yeah, young and frisky. R: Young, yeah. P: The young smuggler. U(L). R: Yeah. S: Daring. P: The daring young pirate. R: I was a shark in the water, boy.. P: The St. Kitts pirate. That(s good. S: I must be the only one in the family, can(t swim. R: You can(t swim? S: Can(t swim. You know, when I was small, I used to be swimming. When I go England and come back, I can(t swim, I don(t know what happen. R: U(L). S:: I always used to be (a) round them that dive in and swim and everything. [phone signal] R: U(L). P: Right. That(s terrific. S:: Easy Ride, good morning. [identifying his cab service] P: Listen. [stop tape. Give me the numbers from one to fourteen. R: Like one, two, three, four, five, six? P: Yeah. Not so fast though. R: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen. P: OK, the number after nineteen. R: Twenty. P: After twenty-nine. R: Thirty. P: After thirty-nine. R: Forty. P: After ninety-nine R: One hundred. P: After nine hundred and ninety nine. R: Two hundred. P: Or a th( N: No, after nine hundred and ninety-nine. R: After nine hundred and ninety-nine, one thousand. P: Yeah. And the next one up after a thousand is a R: A thousand and one. N: Million. R: Oh, oh, oh. That(s a million. P: Right, OK, that(s great. Nw would you name the says of the week. R: The days in the week? P: Yeah. R: Are Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. P: OK, and now the month of the year. R: January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December. P: OK and now numbers we say first second third instead of one two three, you know? R: Yeah. P: Start out that way. R: First P: Yeah R: Second, P: Yeah. R: Third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth. Eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth. P: OK, that(s great. Thanks. End